ProverbsofHell.2307 Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 > @"crewthief.8649" said: > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > Others have already explained the reasoning, but I'll say something else. > > > > Coalescence of Ruin has a long telegraph. Furthermore, you have to be at a max range sweetpot that is very hard to hit. Meanwhile Full Count procs almost immediately as it triggers a counter. You can easily dodge one but not the other. > > > > > > One happens at melee range and has seen many nerfs, the other happens at 1200 range. You can dodge Full Counter, FYI. You aren't going to convince anyone that FC beats CoR in terms of raw damage. Now, regarding utility, FC is still a very solid skill, but it is a shadow of its former self. The over-arching theme of this thread is that FC damage was seen as too high (obviously, since its damage has been nerfed by 83% since PoF launch, as well as an increase to the cooldown), yet CoR, a skill that is initiated from 1200 range and does quite a bit more damage than FC ever has, is seen as "fine." Can you appreciate the disparity? I'm not calling for nerfs, but the OP's original point has some merit, to be completely honest. Thank you. I don't know why people think it's so absurd to compare the skills. Also, note how nowhere in this topic did I say CoR should be nerfed. Actually I think it's perfectly fine to have large damage abilities like this in play. And perhaps Full Counter was *slightly* dealing too much damage. A 15% reduction in damage, for example, would have been acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > 15k on 1 skill that needs barely any set up at 1200 range is far too much, even 8k or more at the interim ranges is far too high for a 1 press EZ damage that can be used as much as CoR can. > > However it sums up GW2 since expansions hit, press 1 button and get mega damage. Don't bother your brain quietly sitting on the couch turning to mush, not needed here. Depends on your definition of setup. My definition includes 25 stacks might, vuln on target, and likely the target also below 50% health. If you turn a corner and bump into a Rev, his CoR will hit you for about 8k. 15k out of nowhere with no setup is fake news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProverbsofHell.2307 Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > 15k on 1 skill that needs barely any set up at 1200 range is far too much, even 8k or more at the interim ranges is far too high for a 1 press EZ damage that can be used as much as CoR can. > > > > However it sums up GW2 since expansions hit, press 1 button and get mega damage. Don't bother your brain quietly sitting on the couch turning to mush, not needed here. > > Depends on your definition of setup. > My definition includes 25 stacks might, vuln on target, and likely the target also below 50% health. > > If you turn a corner and bump into a Rev, his CoR will hit you for about 8k. 15k out of nowhere with no setup is fake news. C'mon... 25 might stacks is EZmode in WvW. That's not "setup". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > 15k on 1 skill that needs barely any set up at 1200 range is far too much, even 8k or more at the interim ranges is far too high for a 1 press EZ damage that can be used as much as CoR can. > > > > > > However it sums up GW2 since expansions hit, press 1 button and get mega damage. Don't bother your brain quietly sitting on the couch turning to mush, not needed here. > > > > Depends on your definition of setup. > > My definition includes 25 stacks might, vuln on target, and likely the target also below 50% health. > > > > If you turn a corner and bump into a Rev, his CoR will hit you for about 8k. 15k out of nowhere with no setup is fake news. > > C'mon... 25 might stacks is EZmode in WvW. That's not "setup". If you seriously think that every revenant is walking around with a perma 25stacks of might at all times, then there is little point in continuing to discuss this. My only conclusion then is that Guild Wars 2 is just beyond your reach, and you should instead find a different game more suited to your capabilities. Maybe give Fortnight a try? I'm out. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent.9538 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > @"crewthief.8649" said: > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > Others have already explained the reasoning, but I'll say something else. > > > > > > Coalescence of Ruin has a long telegraph. Furthermore, you have to be at a max range sweetpot that is very hard to hit. Meanwhile Full Count procs almost immediately as it triggers a counter. You can easily dodge one but not the other. > > > > > > > > > > One happens at melee range and has seen many nerfs, the other happens at 1200 range. You can dodge Full Counter, FYI. You aren't going to convince anyone that FC beats CoR in terms of raw damage. Now, regarding utility, FC is still a very solid skill, but it is a shadow of its former self. The over-arching theme of this thread is that FC damage was seen as too high (obviously, since its damage has been nerfed by 83% since PoF launch, as well as an increase to the cooldown), yet CoR, a skill that is initiated from 1200 range and does quite a bit more damage than FC ever has, is seen as "fine." Can you appreciate the disparity? I'm not calling for nerfs, but the OP's original point has some merit, to be completely honest. > > Thank you. I don't know why people think it's so absurd to compare the skills. > > Also, note how nowhere in this topic did I say CoR should be nerfed. Actually I think it's perfectly fine to have large damage abilities like this in play. And perhaps Full Counter was *slightly* dealing too much damage. A 15% reduction in damage, for example, would have been acceptable. The biggest problem is when you compare a skill that does absolutely nothing except for damage with a skill that does like half a dozen things at base and can be traited for another half dozen. It is apples to oranges. If you want to compare it to something, compare it to stuff like trickery steal or tempest overloads, aka other skills with massively bloated tool-tips though there really aren't any skills like full counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProverbsofHell.2307 Posted January 19, 2019 Author Share Posted January 19, 2019 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > 15k on 1 skill that needs barely any set up at 1200 range is far too much, even 8k or more at the interim ranges is far too high for a 1 press EZ damage that can be used as much as CoR can. > > > > > > > > However it sums up GW2 since expansions hit, press 1 button and get mega damage. Don't bother your brain quietly sitting on the couch turning to mush, not needed here. > > > > > > Depends on your definition of setup. > > > My definition includes 25 stacks might, vuln on target, and likely the target also below 50% health. > > > > > > If you turn a corner and bump into a Rev, his CoR will hit you for about 8k. 15k out of nowhere with no setup is fake news. > > > > C'mon... 25 might stacks is EZmode in WvW. That's not "setup". > > If you seriously think that every revenant is walking around with a perma 25stacks of might at all times, then there is little point in continuing to discuss this. My only conclusion then is that Guild Wars 2 is just beyond your reach, and you should instead find a different game more suited to your capabilities. Maybe give Fortnight a try? > > I'm out. lol > > Haha, ok. This topic is about blob fights and blob classes, not roaming. In a proper fight, you will easily have 25 might stacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakarya.1283 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 The only time I'm hitting 15k CoR when ppl are in downed state. I've never hit a warrior for more than 6-8k with CoR. So not sure where you saw 10k+ CoRs flying after eachothers. Ranged hits hard in almost every game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > 15k on 1 skill that needs barely any set up at 1200 range is far too much, even 8k or more at the interim ranges is far too high for a 1 press EZ damage that can be used as much as CoR can. > > > > > > > > However it sums up GW2 since expansions hit, press 1 button and get mega damage. Don't bother your brain quietly sitting on the couch turning to mush, not needed here. > > > > > > Depends on your definition of setup. > > > My definition includes 25 stacks might, vuln on target, and likely the target also below 50% health. > > > > > > If you turn a corner and bump into a Rev, his CoR will hit you for about 8k. 15k out of nowhere with no setup is fake news. > > > > C'mon... 25 might stacks is EZmode in WvW. That's not "setup". > > If you seriously think that every revenant is walking around with a perma 25stacks of might at all times, then there is little point in continuing to discuss this. My only conclusion then is that Guild Wars 2 is just beyond your reach, and you should instead find a different game more suited to your capabilities. Maybe give Fortnight a try? > > I'm out. lol > > Yeah I mean revs aren't walking around with perma 25 might....but it's not like it takes long to build up considering Incensed Response in WvW gives 5 might per fury so you can easily be halfway there in a few seconds and at 25 might not long after. If you want you can use burst of strength to make up the difference of having 13 might vs 25 might. The set up isn't taking a long time no matter which scenario you look at and in groups revs are at 25 might 100% of the time. The question you should be thinking about is: "Should anyone be able to stack up to 25 might without considerable time, stat and trait investment?" https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incensed_Response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyPuppy.8970 Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > The question you should be thinking about is: "Should anyone be able to stack up to 25 might without considerable time, stat and trait investment?" > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incensed_Response Well, according to Anet it's ok as long as you're not an ele. Edit: I may be badmouthing a bit, it is quite easy with pyromancer's puissance. But still... fire traitline, in camping fire attunement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exalted Quality.8534 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProverbsofHell.2307 Posted January 22, 2019 Author Share Posted January 22, 2019 > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. > > That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProverbsofHell.2307 Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > > > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. > > > > That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. > > You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional. Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > > > > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. > > > > > > That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. > > > > You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional. > > Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods. Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProverbsofHell.2307 Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > > > > > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. > > > > > > > > That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. > > > > > > You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional. > > > > Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods. > > Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison..... It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > > > > > > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. > > > > > > > > > > That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. > > > > > > > > You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional. > > > > > > Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods. > > > > Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison..... > > It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it. Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began.... By your logic: Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it. Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times...... And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits... And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProverbsofHell.2307 Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > > > > > > > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. > > > > > > > > > > You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional. > > > > > > > > Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods. > > > > > > Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison..... > > > > It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it. > > Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began.... > > > By your logic: > > Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it. > > Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times...... > > And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits... > > And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated.... > > > Nice strawmen examples. You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong. But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > > > > > > > > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional. > > > > > > > > > > Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods. > > > > > > > > Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison..... > > > > > > It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it. > > > > Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began.... > > > > > > By your logic: > > > > Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it. > > > > Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times...... > > > > And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits... > > > > And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated.... > > > > > > > > Nice strawmen examples. > > You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong. > > But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you. You didn’t correct anything, your justification for Full Counter was based on its name, so using your logic all those skills should perform as described based on their name, again that’s using the logic and your arguments you set forth, your argument was lost before it ever began trying to compare a Pseudo Invuln vs a Pure attack skill.. You defeated yourself before you ever wrote the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProverbsofHell.2307 Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > > > > > > > > > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional. > > > > > > > > > > > > Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods. > > > > > > > > > > Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison..... > > > > > > > > It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it. > > > > > > Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began.... > > > > > > > > > By your logic: > > > > > > Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it. > > > > > > Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times...... > > > > > > And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits... > > > > > > And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice strawmen examples. > > > > You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong. > > > > But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you. > > You didn’t correct anything, your justification for Full Counter was based on its name, so using your logic all those skills should perform as described based on their name, again that’s using the logic and your arguments you set forth, your argument was lost before it ever began trying to compare a Pseudo Invuln vs a Pure attack skill.. > > You defeated yourself before you ever wrote the OP Sorry but nobody got defeated. My justification was that a skills intended effect is based on their name. Coalescence of Ruin sounds like and is a damaging skill. Just like the others we discussed. Just like Full Counter implies a hard rebuttal. This convention applies to skills across the board, representing their original intended design. Full Counter even has a trait which increases its damage, further supporting the fact it was intended to punish with damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > > > > > > > > > > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison..... > > > > > > > > > > It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it. > > > > > > > > Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began.... > > > > > > > > > > > > By your logic: > > > > > > > > Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it. > > > > > > > > Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times...... > > > > > > > > And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits... > > > > > > > > And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice strawmen examples. > > > > > > You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong. > > > > > > But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you. > > > > You didn’t correct anything, your justification for Full Counter was based on its name, so using your logic all those skills should perform as described based on their name, again that’s using the logic and your arguments you set forth, your argument was lost before it ever began trying to compare a Pseudo Invuln vs a Pure attack skill.. > > > > You defeated yourself before you ever wrote the OP > > Sorry but nobody got defeated. > > My justification was that a skills intended effect is based on their name. Coalescence of Ruin sounds like and is a damaging skill. Just like the others we discussed. Just like Full Counter implies a hard rebuttal. This convention applies to skills across the board, representing their original intended design. > > Full Counter even has a trait which increases its damage, further supporting the fact it was intended to punish with damage. A counter doesn’t have to be super damaging, it just has to hinder or stop something which Full Counter does and it does Punish, it deals damage on top of a lot of other things that it can do.... Again you lost this conversation before it ever began by Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a Pure damage skill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProverbsofHell.2307 Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison..... > > > > > > > > > > > > It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it. > > > > > > > > > > Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By your logic: > > > > > > > > > > Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it. > > > > > > > > > > Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times...... > > > > > > > > > > And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits... > > > > > > > > > > And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice strawmen examples. > > > > > > > > You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong. > > > > > > > > But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you. > > > > > > You didn’t correct anything, your justification for Full Counter was based on its name, so using your logic all those skills should perform as described based on their name, again that’s using the logic and your arguments you set forth, your argument was lost before it ever began trying to compare a Pseudo Invuln vs a Pure attack skill.. > > > > > > You defeated yourself before you ever wrote the OP > > > > Sorry but nobody got defeated. > > > > My justification was that a skills intended effect is based on their name. Coalescence of Ruin sounds like and is a damaging skill. Just like the others we discussed. Just like Full Counter implies a hard rebuttal. This convention applies to skills across the board, representing their original intended design. > > > > Full Counter even has a trait which increases its damage, further supporting the fact it was intended to punish with damage. > > A counter doesn’t have to be super damaging, it just has to hinder or stop something which Full Counter does and it does Punish, it deals damage on top of a lot of other things that it can do.... > > Again you lost this conversation before it ever began by Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a Pure damage skill It deals less than an autoattack. In what world should a COUNTER deal less than a regular attack? You literally can't argue that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By your logic: > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times...... > > > > > > > > > > > > And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits... > > > > > > > > > > > > And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice strawmen examples. > > > > > > > > > > You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong. > > > > > > > > > > But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you. > > > > > > > > You didn’t correct anything, your justification for Full Counter was based on its name, so using your logic all those skills should perform as described based on their name, again that’s using the logic and your arguments you set forth, your argument was lost before it ever began trying to compare a Pseudo Invuln vs a Pure attack skill.. > > > > > > > > You defeated yourself before you ever wrote the OP > > > > > > Sorry but nobody got defeated. > > > > > > My justification was that a skills intended effect is based on their name. Coalescence of Ruin sounds like and is a damaging skill. Just like the others we discussed. Just like Full Counter implies a hard rebuttal. This convention applies to skills across the board, representing their original intended design. > > > > > > Full Counter even has a trait which increases its damage, further supporting the fact it was intended to punish with damage. > > > > A counter doesn’t have to be super damaging, it just has to hinder or stop something which Full Counter does and it does Punish, it deals damage on top of a lot of other things that it can do.... > > > > Again you lost this conversation before it ever began by Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a Pure damage skill > > It deals less than an autoattack. In what world should a COUNTER deal less than a regular attack? You literally can't argue that point. Full Counter isn’t designed as to be primarily a Damage Source, it is a Psuedo Invuln skill with Damage tacked on as a Secondary as well as being an AoE CC effect..... also FC does a lot of damage for what the skill actually is, oh wow it has 0.05-0.1 less damage coefficient than some AAs oh no it’s the end of the world!!!! But wait it has 0.1 more damage coefficient than some other AAs!!!! Again your argument was lost before it ever began, trying to compare a Psuedo Invuln to A Damage skill. It’s extremely clear what the problem is and it’s not Full Counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 If killshot is used against a hammer rev during CoR, the warrior deals 15k damage and the rev deals 15k damage. If the same killshot is used against a spellbreaker who decides to then use old FC after the animation, he takes none and deals 15k unblockable damage back and then slows, cripples, dazes, and removes a boon from up to five people, and then applies protection and stability to himself to help further negate subsequent damage on top of that. CoR might be busted but FC was overloaded, so something had to give. Coming from the reaper perspective where we got our sustain gutted for asinine burst, more damage is absolutely not the answer warrior is looking for in this meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge.8724 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison..... > > > > > > > > > > > > It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it. > > > > > > > > > > Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By your logic: > > > > > > > > > > Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it. > > > > > > > > > > Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times...... > > > > > > > > > > And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits... > > > > > > > > > > And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice strawmen examples. > > > > > > > > You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong. > > > > > > > > But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you. > > > > > > You didn’t correct anything, your justification for Full Counter was based on its name, so using your logic all those skills should perform as described based on their name, again that’s using the logic and your arguments you set forth, your argument was lost before it ever began trying to compare a Pseudo Invuln vs a Pure attack skill.. > > > > > > You defeated yourself before you ever wrote the OP > > > > Sorry but nobody got defeated. > > > > My justification was that a skills intended effect is based on their name. Coalescence of Ruin sounds like and is a damaging skill. Just like the others we discussed. Just like Full Counter implies a hard rebuttal. This convention applies to skills across the board, representing their original intended design. > > > > Full Counter even has a trait which increases its damage, further supporting the fact it was intended to punish with damage. > > A counter doesn’t have to be super damaging, it just has to hinder or stop something which Full Counter does and it does Punish, it deals damage on top of a lot of other things that it can do.... > > Again you lost this conversation before it ever began by Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a Pure damage skill I'm a bit curious. What are the so many things a Full Counter can do? To me, it's just a mini evade that lasts 0,5 second and then a mini unblockable aoe attack. Oh, maybe the interrupt is nice... Or were you talking about that one stack of 2 seconds stability? As an Elite Specialisation mechanic, it failed to impress me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steki.1478 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 > @"Edge.8724" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Exalted Quality.8534" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve always maintained that if you get hit skills with giant obvious tells, you kinda deserve it. COR is no different. If you’re so worried about it, save your dodge rolls for that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's all well and good... but notice nowhere in my post say that it was an issue that CoR does this amount of damage. I just think it's wrong that a class mechanic melee skill which already did less, was gutted by 66%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are comparing a Defensive Pseudo Invuln Skill that has the option to do so much more to a purely damaging skill....... ofc the Pure Damage skill will do more damage, especially since the damage is conditional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Full Counter could hit for like 10-12k if you were full zerk/assassin, scholar, use power on kill food, etc. CoR can hit for 15k+. Now I don't completely disagree that Full Counter was dealing too much damage, but more along the lines of something that would leave it in the 7-9k bracket (and 10k with trait) by using all of those damage stacking methods I mentioned. What we have now is 3k Full Counter using all of those methods. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, you are comparing a skill designed as a Psuedo Invuln Vs a Pure Attack skill(with high damage gated behind a certain condition needing to be met)... if you don’t see the issue between those comparison..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's called "Full Counter". It's supposed to punish. It shouldn't be low damage. Half the specs traits are based around it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a pure attack skill is where you lost this conversation before it ever began.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By your logic: > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has a skill called Headshot it should one shot any one that gets hit by it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Warrior has a Skill called Hundred blades it should attack 100 times...... > > > > > > > > > > > > And Killshot should be a one hit if it hits anyone since you know it’s called Killshot, it should always kill what it hits... > > > > > > > > > > > > And a skill called Decapitate, if it hits it should one hit any one can’t live while decapitated.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice strawmen examples. > > > > > > > > > > You're taking those literally, whereas I'm not taking "Full Counter" literally. Using your rules, Full Counter would need to be "negates and beats anything that triggers it", whereas I'm just saying the skill name emphasizes it should be punishing. Just like Decapitate, Killshot etc put emphasis on the skill being strong. > > > > > > > > > > But again, nice job misrepresenting my argument. Glad I could correct that for you. > > > > > > > > You didn’t correct anything, your justification for Full Counter was based on its name, so using your logic all those skills should perform as described based on their name, again that’s using the logic and your arguments you set forth, your argument was lost before it ever began trying to compare a Pseudo Invuln vs a Pure attack skill.. > > > > > > > > You defeated yourself before you ever wrote the OP > > > > > > Sorry but nobody got defeated. > > > > > > My justification was that a skills intended effect is based on their name. Coalescence of Ruin sounds like and is a damaging skill. Just like the others we discussed. Just like Full Counter implies a hard rebuttal. This convention applies to skills across the board, representing their original intended design. > > > > > > Full Counter even has a trait which increases its damage, further supporting the fact it was intended to punish with damage. > > > > A counter doesn’t have to be super damaging, it just has to hinder or stop something which Full Counter does and it does Punish, it deals damage on top of a lot of other things that it can do.... > > > > Again you lost this conversation before it ever began by Comparing a Psuedo Invuln to a Pure damage skill > > I'm a bit curious. What are the so many things a Full Counter can do? To me, it's just a mini evade that lasts 0,5 second and then a mini unblockable aoe attack. Oh, maybe the interrupt is nice... Or were you talking about that one stack of 2 seconds stability? As an Elite Specialisation mechanic, it failed to impress me. You just answered your question. It does all of that with no trait/skill investment. It doesn't need to be impressive, it needs to be balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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