Is mesmer the most niche class?

[Esplen.3940]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

>

> > And holy Kormir @"Cyninja.2954" how many times do I have to explain that Mesmer can cleave and provide utility? Do you not count Breakbars, Distortion Blocking, Reflects, Pulls/Pushes, and even the opportunity of Condi Cleanse (Resolve vs Sloth Fear) as no utility? Do you not count that 60% of the DPS is from Sword, Prestige, Sigil of Air, and Power Spike, which hits 3-5 targets as cleave?

>

> As a matter of fact, no I do not count Breakbars, distortion, reflects and condi cleanse if they require sloting out dps when other dps classes bring these things either baseline or with less a drop in performance while being already better at providing dps.

 

And if they don't require slotting out DPS? Would you consider them as utility (even though other professions, when slotting for utility lose out on DPS)?

 

What if I told you that a Power Mesmer requires 1 skill, and that's Signet of the Ether? What if I told you that all 3 utilities and their elite are free range for their choosing? What if I told you that Power Spike was a small DPS increase, but not a requirement for the build? What if I told you that Signet of Domination and Signet of Midnight account for less than 1% of the total output of the build? What if I told you that you already run Moa because the only competent alternative is Time Warp which does fairly little with 2 Chronos?

 

> As far as cleave. Sword range is a mediocre cleave with minimal range (mediocre because it has a 3 target cap and benefits only from 1 skill besides autoattack and is low damage. Yes, 60% is low damage when taken from an already low damage number). It's worse range wise compared to cleave like cPS fire fields, elemetalist fields, DH traps and GS cleave, and other classes. It does less damage than all of the above. I was not under the impression I had to explain this.

 

Ummm...

 

> As far as cleave. Sword range is a mediocre cleave with minimal range (mediocre because it has a 3 target cap and benefits only from 1 skill besides autoattack and is low damage. Yes, 60% is low damage when taken from an already low damage number).

 

Low, as in floating around top3 DPS in actual raid statistics?

 

> It's worse range wise compared to cleave like cPS fire fields, elemetalist fields, DH traps and GS cleave, and other classes.

Sure, it's worse range than cPS fire fields and elementalist fields, but so is Condi Engineer, Necro/Scourge/Reaper, and even Dragonhunter.

 

Heck, bringing up Condi War fire fields is a cheap argument because it can hit 25 targets every 0.5 seconds in a 1,200 range. But we don't see compositions of 4 Condi Wars for their massive cleave options because usually you don't need to cleave more than 2-4 targets.

 

You say Dragonhunter traps as though they're able to constantly drop them like Engineer mines. They aren't. They have low uptime and you spam them off cooldown meaning they aren't useful as cleave options. They're just DPS boosts, which may cleave.

 

GS Cleave. Oh hohoho. Every Greatsword option, bar Fiery and Mesmer, has 130 range and hits 3 targets. Mesmer sword hits... wait for it... 130 range and 3 targets. You can argue that Reaper has more with it's field, but most of Reaper GS damage comes from whirling, which is single target. The "cleave" option for Necro is really just Epidemic (and, now, Scourge Shades).

 

Realistically, you aren't going to see anyone change up their rotation to cleave more, it's just a by-product of what they do. Mesmer provides a little bit of cleave. Sure, it's not their entire rotation, nor is it their entire damage output, but that's not what your claim was. Your claim was that Mesmer has no cleave.

 

That is untrue. Mesmer does have cleave. It may not be as much as you want. It may not be as much as you need. But it does exist, and it's more than half their damage output.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > @Esplen.3940 said:

> >

> > > And holy Kormir @"Cyninja.2954" how many times do I have to explain that Mesmer can cleave and provide utility? Do you not count Breakbars, Distortion Blocking, Reflects, Pulls/Pushes, and even the opportunity of Condi Cleanse (Resolve vs Sloth Fear) as no utility? Do you not count that 60% of the DPS is from Sword, Prestige, Sigil of Air, and Power Spike, which hits 3-5 targets as cleave?

> >

> > As a matter of fact, no I do not count Breakbars, distortion, reflects and condi cleanse if they require sloting out dps when other dps classes bring these things either baseline or with less a drop in performance while being already better at providing dps.

>

> And if they don't require slotting out DPS? Would you consider them as utility (even though other professions, when slotting for utility lose out on DPS)?

>

> What if I told you that a Power Mesmer requires 1 skill, and that's Signet of the Ether? What if I told you that all 3 utilities and their elite are free range for their choosing? What if I told you that Power Spike was a small DPS increase, but not a requirement for the build? What if I told you that Signet of Domination and Signet of Midnight account for less than 1% of the total output of the build? What if I told you that you already run Moa because the only competent alternative is Time Warp which does fairly little with 2 Chronos?

 

You can slot out every utility, sure. And then your dps as mesmer will be far lower than those benchmarks. Other classes might not have to slot out anything, and still bring the same utility or cleave. How is this so hard to understand...

 

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > As far as cleave. Sword range is a mediocre cleave with minimal range (mediocre because it has a 3 target cap and benefits only from 1 skill besides autoattack and is low damage. Yes, 60% is low damage when taken from an already low damage number). It's worse range wise compared to cleave like cPS fire fields, elemetalist fields, DH traps and GS cleave, and other classes. It does less damage than all of the above. I was not under the impression I had to explain this.

>

> Ummm...

>

> > As far as cleave. Sword range is a mediocre cleave with minimal range (mediocre because it has a 3 target cap and benefits only from 1 skill besides autoattack and is low damage. Yes, 60% is low damage when taken from an already low damage number).

>

> > It's worse range wise compared to cleave like cPS fire fields, elemetalist fields, DH traps and GS cleave, and other classes.

> Sure, it's worse range than cPS fire fields and elementalist fields, but so is Condi Engineer, Necro/Scourge/Reaper, and even Dragonhunter.

>

> Heck, bringing up Condi War fire fields is a cheap argument because it can hit 25 targets every 0.5 seconds in a 1,200 range. But we don't see compositions of 4 Condi Wars for their massive cleave options because usually you don't need to cleave more than 2-4 targets.

>

> You say Dragonhunter traps as though they're able to constantly drop them like Engineer mines. They aren't. They have low uptime and you spam them off cooldown meaning they aren't useful as cleave options. They're just DPS boosts, which may cleave.

>

> GS Cleave. Oh hohoho. Every Greatsword option, bar Fiery and Mesmer, has 130 range and hits 3 targets. Mesmer sword hits... wait for it... 130 range and 3 targets. You can argue that Reaper has more with it's field, but most of Reaper GS damage comes from whirling, which is single target. The "cleave" option for Necro is really just Epidemic (and, now, Scourge Shades).

 

So my valid counter arguments are cheap arguments, but your minimal cleave is not. Don't you realise how biased your own argumentation is? Also you can all 4 raid wings with 4 condi warriors and never have any issues. Try that with 4 power mesmer. It'll work but be way less smooth.

 

DH don't have permanent traps, but they don't have to exchange any utilitys for bringing them as well as their elite trap which is CC. They lose 0 dps.

 

Elementalist fields are ranged and can be droped anywhere needed while not being restricitv to melee range, so are engi and ranger skills mostly.

 

Mesmer is tied to melee range with pathetic cleave.

 

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> Low, as in floating around top3 DPS in actual raid statistics?

 

First off, mesmer is placed 4.3d taking the average of the medianvalues (worse when viewing the 90% percentile) accross all 11 fights. Second, yes that's bad. THIS IS PRE POF STUFF....

 

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> Realistically, you aren't going to see anyone change up their rotation to cleave more, it's just a by-product of what they do. Mesmer provides a little bit of cleave. Sure, it's not their entire rotation, nor is it their entire damage output, but that's not what your claim was. Your claim was that Mesmer has no cleave.

>

> That is untrue. Mesmer does have cleave. It may not be as much as you want. It may not be as much as you need. But it does exist, and it's more than half their damage output.

 

....... semantics? Really? You are down to "well our cleave is low but it's there"?

 

Fine, I yeild. Mesmer cleave does exist and is to weak and restrictiv (mostly range wise) to matter. Happy? How does this change anything about my earlier arguments about other classes have to cover for them?

 

[Cyninja.2954]

double post

 

[atlashugged.7642]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

>First off, mesmer is placed 4.3d taking the average of the medianvalues (worse when viewing the 90% percentile) accross all 11 fights. Second, yes that's bad. THIS IS PRE POF STUFF....

 

Why is being 4th place out of 10 a bad thing?

 

It seems like you won't stop complaining until Mesmer is the best in all things.

 

 

[apharma.3741]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> I haven't been vouching for Condi Mesmer. You guys have been putting that in my mouth.

>

 

Really? So why put comments like

 

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> It's not though, because the logs show otherwise. You're looking at the data and saying "nah, I don't agree with it" and then making a subjective argument where I (and to some degree, Pyro) are using the data to pull a conclusion that Mesmer is a competent DPS role in raids.

>

> I've proven multiple boss fights where Mesmer is a solid and strong DPS role, and you can't see past Matthias. I will go out on a limb and assume that it's because the only place where a Mesmer is shown as "viable" on qT's page is Matthias and Cairn.

 

 

If you aren’t vouching for for Condi Mesmer then why are you claiming to have proven multiple boss fights where it’s a strong dps role? We aren’t putting words in your mouth, the words are there on this very page.

 

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> I don't talk about Fractals because those require a more strict composition and fights should be fairly short with multiple phases outside of pugs, putting DPS Mesmer in an awkward situation.>

 

Yet it is entirely relevant as dps role is not exclusive to content especially when we consider the game has 2 endgame content fillers, CM fractals and raids. When we also start thinking of fractals as half a raid group and many do go into them with essentially half a raid group a class excluded from fractals because it is mechanically poor will generally not be regarded well for the other content and vice versa.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> >First off, mesmer is placed 4.3d taking the average of the medianvalues (worse when viewing the 90% percentile) accross all 11 fights. Second, yes that's bad. THIS IS PRE POF STUFF....

>

> Why is being 4th place out of 10 a bad thing?

>

> It seems like you won't stop complaining until Mesmer is the best in all things.

>

>

 

This is pre POF.......... Do you understand what that means in the context that mesmer has no new raid build available with the PoF release and the demands for chrono nerfs are growing louder? EDIT: No new raid build which significantly improves our performance, before people start telling me that Mirage with it's 3k dps more is better than power core.

 

I've personally seen condi Firebrand and power Holo perfrom very very well, rest assured so will Weaver, Souldbeast and Scrouge.

 

2nd EDIT: while I personally am not advocating for it (with our class in its current state at least), I kind of can understand the demand for a nerf to chrono. It's simply to strong in the current pve meta while also being quite unique in what it offers. One can't expect to get 1/5th of all the raid/fractal spots for ever. My guess is, it's more of a "when" and not "if" issue here.

[Carighan.6758]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> I was just talking about the dps role, generally you fill up the required roles and classes and then pick your poison of dps classes. If someone joined with a dps ranger, engy, thief, necro, ele, war and guard people wouldn’t think twice about letting them in because they all have good to excellent damage potential and can bring cleave. Mesmers are very well known to have appalling cleave, and damage tied to really annoying mechanics, clones and phantasms.

 

This is more a problem of player perception then. Not because I'd take a Mesmer for DPS in an optimal setup, though:

 

* If I want to build an optimal group, I wouldn't take suboptimal specs such as DPS Ranger. Or Warrior for that matter. Or Necro, some fights excluded.

* If I'm not building an optimal group, 4 DPS Mirages are **easily** enough damage for the current raids. So are 4 "anything", class doesn't matter, only that they pick the correct spec / gear / sigils / runes / food does.

 

This is also why I think ANet isn't in full-alert mode about the current spec balance, simply because all PvE content including raids is **so** undertuned, it doesn't truly matter what you do. If anything, Chronomancers / cPS Warriors / Druids having no real alternative is the bigger issue. There is no other class buffing Quickness and Alacrity near-100% while also sharing Protection and Vigor and Retal constantly, there is no second class bringing Grace of the Land (which really should be on Ventari for Revenants instead of Alacrity, it fits worlds better), there is no one stacking Might remotely as well as Warriors. DPS by comparison doesn't matter.

 

Though you are ofc correct that's not what someone gets told ingame. Players, me included, are stupid. They have the weirdest perceptions of class / raid balance.

[apharma.3741]

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> > @apharma.3741 said:

> > I was just talking about the dps role, generally you fill up the required roles and classes and then pick your poison of dps classes. If someone joined with a dps ranger, engy, thief, necro, ele, war and guard people wouldn’t think twice about letting them in because they all have good to excellent damage potential and can bring cleave. Mesmers are very well known to have appalling cleave, and damage tied to really annoying mechanics, clones and phantasms.

>

> This is more a problem of player perception then. Not because I'd take a Mesmer for DPS in an optimal setup, though:

>

> * If I want to build an optimal group, I wouldn't take suboptimal specs such as DPS Ranger. Or Warrior for that matter. Or Necro, some fights excluded.

> * If I'm not building an optimal group, 4 DPS Mirages are **easily** enough damage for the current raids. So are 4 "anything", class doesn't matter, only that they pick the correct spec / gear / sigils / runes / food does.

>

> This is also why I think ANet isn't in full-alert mode about the current spec balance, simply because all PvE content including raids is **so** undertuned, it doesn't truly matter what you do. If anything, Chronomancers / cPS Warriors / Druids having no real alternative is the bigger issue. There is no other class buffing Quickness and Alacrity near-100% while also sharing Protection and Vigor and Retal constantly, there is no second class bringing Grace of the Land (which really should be on Ventari for Revenants instead of Alacrity, it fits worlds better), there is no one stacking Might remotely as well as Warriors. DPS by comparison doesn't matter.

>

> Though you are ofc correct that's not what someone gets told ingame. Players, me included, are stupid. They have the weirdest perceptions of class / raid balance.

 

I know it’s partly player perception and I do agree you could run 4 mirages and still manage all the bosses pretty much but some will be a lot harder than others because as I keep mentioning mechanics work very much against the way mesmer does it’s damage. Cannons on Sabetha would be annoying for mesmers and pretty much every single class would be better to do that even condi PS. Slothazor has the mushroom problem and while the mesmers could trivialise the impact of normal slublings through feedback the cleave would be lacking and so you’d have a build up creating unnecessary problems later. Trio the bosses would be easy enough, the mortars and saboteurs would be too but the adds would be a pain for such a group and this translates over to escort too where you are unlikely to fail but it will take longer than any sane person would ever want it to take.

 

Likewise KC might be an issue with it appearing and disappearing all the time meaning burn phases are likely to be fairly poor but having better dps in between, might be cutting it close on the phantasms though. Xera is likewise a pain for mesmers in the second phase where all their damage goes down the toilet when they get teleported. Wing 4 is a little better for dps mesmer with Cairn being easier, MO so long as people focus the soldiers properly might take a little longer but nothing too silly (can also do the portal to one side and back strat to negate soldiers entirely) and Samarog only difficulty might poor damage on Rigom phase. Deimos would be horrible though.

 

I mean you could get 3-4 dps mesmers for a less than optimal group but outside of novelty each wing would have 1-2 encounters that would be more frustrating than anyone really wants them to be compared to running 3-4 of other classes. Only other class I can think of that doesn’t stack well is maybe rev but that’s more because I never see the condi variation being played so have no real experience in seeing how good it is mechanically. Besides if you had players good enough to overcome the mechanical disadvantages of dps mesmer on the bosses where it’s not very good then these people would be good enough to play any class that doesn’t have these downsides and get more from them.

 

I will admit dps mesmer does shine when you’re playing with a bunch of clowns that can’t even maintain 50% quickness uptime.

 

To clarify, my issue isn’t that the damage is subpar as 30k is enough to kill any boss comfortably, it’s that the mechanics and the way it does damage is absolutely terrible leaving various situations where the encounter becomes much more difficult for no reason at all.

[musu.9205]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> > @Carighan.6758 said:

> > > @apharma.3741 said:

> > > I was just talking about the dps role, generally you fill up the required roles and classes and then pick your poison of dps classes. If someone joined with a dps ranger, engy, thief, necro, ele, war and guard people wouldn’t think twice about letting them in because they all have good to excellent damage potential and can bring cleave. Mesmers are very well known to have appalling cleave, and damage tied to really annoying mechanics, clones and phantasms.

> >

> > This is more a problem of player perception then. Not because I'd take a Mesmer for DPS in an optimal setup, though:

> >

> > * If I want to build an optimal group, I wouldn't take suboptimal specs such as DPS Ranger. Or Warrior for that matter. Or Necro, some fights excluded.

> > * If I'm not building an optimal group, 4 DPS Mirages are **easily** enough damage for the current raids. So are 4 "anything", class doesn't matter, only that they pick the correct spec / gear / sigils / runes / food does.

> >

> > This is also why I think ANet isn't in full-alert mode about the current spec balance, simply because all PvE content including raids is **so** undertuned, it doesn't truly matter what you do. If anything, Chronomancers / cPS Warriors / Druids having no real alternative is the bigger issue. There is no other class buffing Quickness and Alacrity near-100% while also sharing Protection and Vigor and Retal constantly, there is no second class bringing Grace of the Land (which really should be on Ventari for Revenants instead of Alacrity, it fits worlds better), there is no one stacking Might remotely as well as Warriors. DPS by comparison doesn't matter.

> >

> > Though you are ofc correct that's not what someone gets told ingame. Players, me included, are stupid. They have the weirdest perceptions of class / raid balance.

>

> I know it’s partly player perception and I do agree you could run 4 mirages and still manage all the bosses pretty much but some will be a lot harder than others because as I keep mentioning mechanics work very much against the way mesmer does it’s damage. Cannons on Sabetha would be annoying for mesmers and pretty much every single class would be better to do that even condi PS. Slothazor has the mushroom problem and while the mesmers could trivialise the impact of normal slublings through feedback the cleave would be lacking and so you’d have a build up creating unnecessary problems later. Trio the bosses would be easy enough, the mortars and saboteurs would be too but the adds would be a pain for such a group and this translates over to escort too where you are unlikely to fail but it will take longer than any sane person would ever want it to take.

>

> Likewise KC might be an issue with it appearing and disappearing all the time meaning burn phases are likely to be fairly poor but having better dps in between, might be cutting it close on the phantasms though. Xera is likewise a pain for mesmers in the second phase where all their damage goes down the toilet when they get teleported. Wing 4 is a little better for dps mesmer with Cairn being easier, MO so long as people focus the soldiers properly might take a little longer but nothing too silly (can also do the portal to one side and back strat to negate soldiers entirely) and Samarog only difficulty might poor damage on Rigom phase. Deimos would be horrible though.

>

> I mean you could get 3-4 dps mesmers for a less than optimal group but outside of novelty each wing would have 1-2 encounters that would be more frustrating than anyone really wants them to be compared to running 3-4 of other classes. Only other class I can think of that doesn’t stack well is maybe rev but that’s more because I never see the condi variation being played so have no real experience in seeing how good it is mechanically. Besides if you had players good enough to overcome the mechanical disadvantages of dps mesmer on the bosses where it’s not very good then these people would be good enough to play any class that doesn’t have these downsides and get more from them.

>

> I will admit dps mesmer does shine when you’re playing with a bunch of clowns that can’t even maintain 50% quickness uptime.

>

> To clarify, my issue isn’t that the damage is subpar as 30k is enough to kill any boss comfortably, it’s that the mechanics and the way it does damage is absolutely terrible leaving various situations where the encounter becomes much more difficult for no reason at all.

 

and i already have someone in my raid guild who was trying this easy rotation of mirage on actual raid bosses.guess what happened , they died to VG everytime they used axe 3 and ran out dodge easily what i can say i already told them mirage is not practical just like core mesmer in raid .worse is that someone plays mirage in sloth .

if you have bad players to play with , tell them to play DH , easy life , good numbers and passively help team aoe adds and cc .

easy rotation doesn't really mean much when things like staff DD , power DH or condi ranger/soulbeast are not that harder and they won't mess up your raid so easily by random teleport or lacking of cleave dmg .

[atlashugged.7642]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> This is pre POF.......... Do you understand what that means in the context that mesmer has no new raid build available with the PoF release and the demands for chrono nerfs are growing louder? EDIT: No new raid build which significantly improves our performance, before people start telling me that Mirage with it's 3k dps more is better than power core.

 

Outside of obvious outliers like the firebrand and weaver dps increases, I don't think PoF has shaken up the meta that much. If anet fixes the outliers, mesmer will still be in a good place. if anet doesn't fix the outliers, nothing will be in a good place.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > This is pre POF.......... Do you understand what that means in the context that mesmer has no new raid build available with the PoF release and the demands for chrono nerfs are growing louder? EDIT: No new raid build which significantly improves our performance, before people start telling me that Mirage with it's 3k dps more is better than power core.

>

> Outside of obvious outliers like the firebrand and weaver dps increases, I don't think PoF has shaken up the meta that much. If anet fixes the outliers, mesmer will still be in a good place. if anet doesn't fix the outliers, nothing will be in a good place.

 

40k Soulbeast is no shakeup? Have you seen any logs of Power Holo yet? PoF hasn't shaken up the meta yet, because the new builds aren't finished testing yet.

 

Scourge puts out some very high numbers even with all the pre PoF nerfs while being one of the best barrier provider.

 

Deadeye puts thief in a bad spot, it's very spvp/wvw niche (hmmm kinda similar to Mirage).

 

Spellbreaker is pure wvw niche, then again warriors have their raid spots atm.

 

Firebrand even after balance puts out good numbers with quickness uptime. DH remains very strong.

 

Tempest is still top tier, weaver just pushes it to the extreme. Even with significant nerfs I doubt elementalist will drop below 38k golem if not 40k.

 

Renegade as well as revenant ar not meta at the moment. Not sure where this will go, with some buffs it might be a good dps+alacrity provider. The dps is quite nice already. It's a straight upgrade to condi revenant, which was quite high dps wise already and not as selfish at that. EDIT: speaking of the devil, the new qtfy rotation puts Renegade at 37k dps on golem.

[Agent Noun.7350]

Where are these calls for Chronomancer nerfs you keep mentioning, @"Cyninja.2954"? I'm not doubting you, I just haven't seen them and would like to know what's supposedly overpowered about Chronomancer all of a sudden.

 

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > This is pre POF.......... Do you understand what that means in the context that mesmer has no new raid build available with the PoF release and the demands for chrono nerfs are growing louder? EDIT: No new raid build which significantly improves our performance, before people start telling me that Mirage with it's 3k dps more is better than power core.

>

> Outside of obvious outliers like the firebrand and weaver dps increases, I don't think PoF has shaken up the meta that much. If anet fixes the outliers, mesmer will still be in a good place. if anet doesn't fix the outliers, nothing will be in a good place.

 

It's worth noting that most of the new condi builds are coming in around 35-38k DPS on benchmarks (including post-nerf Firebrand), which is higher than HoT tended to be. Going by Qtfy's benchmarks, condi Tempest was pulling about 35.7k DPS, which all of the new elite specs' condi builds exceed except Mirage and maybe Holosmith (though that's not really a "condi spec" so it might not count). That said, condi Mesmer _did_ get a buff with Mirage, so it's not like our numbers stayed exactly the same and everyone else's got higher.

 

Power Mesmer's probably going to fall behind the pack, because Mirage offers it nothing, but frankly power _everything_ is really behind the pack, and that's something that needs to be looked at across the board--it's not just a Mesmer problem. Power Dragonhunter can mostly keep up, I think, but most everything else just pales in comparison to the same profession's available condi builds. (Weaver's an outlier just because large hitbox totally immobile enemies are a rarity--staff power DPS is certainly very good, but I doubt anyone's going to be even approaching that 47-48k number in a real fight.)

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> Where are these calls for Chronomancer nerfs you keep mentioning, @"Cyninja.2954"? I'm not doubting you, I just haven't seen them and would like to know what's supposedly overpowered about Chronomancer all of a sudden.

 

Check the Dungeons, Raids, Fractal forum. Every single thread about raid balance devolves into: you can't have 6 permanent spots occupied by 3 classes. Which objectively is true too though I'm not a believer of perfect balance being possible, so you will always have some classes take more spots.

 

That coupled with what people were saying about how arenanet view chronomancer (being very strong) is enough reason to expect balance changes down the road.

 

Objectively chrono is on the overpowered side:

 

- distortion

- boon share

- perma alacrity

- perma quickness

- strong 1v1

 

Basically the only thing missing is a top tier damage build and chrono would be master of all aspects. Now personally I'm fine with chrono being this way since 90% of the game is about damage and support roles are slowly developing ever since they got added with HoT. It is a very strong elite though.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > Where are these calls for Chronomancer nerfs you keep mentioning, @"Cyninja.2954"? I'm not doubting you, I just haven't seen them and would like to know what's supposedly overpowered about Chronomancer all of a sudden.

>

> Check the Dungeons, Raids, Fractal forum. Every single thread about raid balance devolves into: you can't have 6 permanent spots occupied by 3 classes. Which objectively is true too though I'm not a believer of perfect balance being possible, so you will always have some classes take more spots.

>

> That coupled with what people were saying about how arenanet view chronomancer (being very strong) is enough reason to expect balance changes down the road.

>

> Objectively chrono is on the overpowered side:

>

> - distortion

> - boon share

> - perma alacrity

> - perma quickness

> - strong 1v1

>

> Basically the only thing missing is a top tier damage build and chrono would be master of all aspects. Now personally I'm fine with chrono being this way since 90% of the game is about damage and support roles are slowly developing ever since they got added with HoT. It is a very strong elite though.

 

Ah, okay. Yeah, that actually does make sense to me.

 

For what it's worth, I do think there's something wrong if every raid group badly wants two players on the exact same elite spec. But I'm hesitant to embrace Chronomancer nerfs (or buffs to other sources of quickness and alacrity) until I can be assured that Mesmers of some kind will still bring something desirable to raid groups.

 

I wonder what kind of difference just making alacrity target 10 players would make.

[Carighan.6758]

The fix to chronomancers being a necessity (or Druids, or cPS Warriors) is easy in design, easy in implementation, but time-consuming in (boring) work:

 

* Design buffs and debuffs with raids in mind.

* Then, assign 2-4 classes to each buff and debuff.

* Change either the combinations between them, or the ability to provide it outside of raids (someone might have a short spammable version with a huge radius and a 50 target limit, someone else a lasts-until-2000-range-is-exceeded single target version which can be cast on multiple people).

 

In other words, no one would be unique. Chronomancers might bring Quickness and Alacrity (it's also not "90% uptime", you bring it. Period. It's there. Or you don't. Then it isn't there because you're the wrong class to bring something). Ventari healers might bring Grace of the Land and Alacrity. Firebrands bring Quickness + something else. And so on.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > > Where are these calls for Chronomancer nerfs you keep mentioning, @"Cyninja.2954"? I'm not doubting you, I just haven't seen them and would like to know what's supposedly overpowered about Chronomancer all of a sudden.

> >

> > Check the Dungeons, Raids, Fractal forum. Every single thread about raid balance devolves into: you can't have 6 permanent spots occupied by 3 classes. Which objectively is true too though I'm not a believer of perfect balance being possible, so you will always have some classes take more spots.

> >

> > That coupled with what people were saying about how arenanet view chronomancer (being very strong) is enough reason to expect balance changes down the road.

> >

> > Objectively chrono is on the overpowered side:

> >

> > - distortion

> > - boon share

> > - perma alacrity

> > - perma quickness

> > - strong 1v1

> >

> > Basically the only thing missing is a top tier damage build and chrono would be master of all aspects. Now personally I'm fine with chrono being this way since 90% of the game is about damage and support roles are slowly developing ever since they got added with HoT. It is a very strong elite though.

>

> Ah, okay. Yeah, that actually does make sense to me.

>

> For what it's worth, I do think there's something wrong if every raid group badly wants two players on the exact same elite spec. But I'm hesitant to embrace Chronomancer nerfs (or buffs to other sources of quickness and alacrity) until I can be assured that Mesmers of some kind will still bring something desirable to raid groups.

>

> I wonder what kind of difference just making alacrity target 10 players would make.

 

Oh I'm not embracing chrono nerfs, I'm just expecting them. It's also the reason why I'm so overcritical of mesmer dps specs and not just okay with mediocre results because I doubt we'll be healers any time soon.

 

It's basically bring utility (and enough warranting to get taken along) or bring damage. If you aren't good at either, you don't get to raid.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > > > Where are these calls for Chronomancer nerfs you keep mentioning, @"Cyninja.2954"? I'm not doubting you, I just haven't seen them and would like to know what's supposedly overpowered about Chronomancer all of a sudden.

> > >

> > > Check the Dungeons, Raids, Fractal forum. Every single thread about raid balance devolves into: you can't have 6 permanent spots occupied by 3 classes. Which objectively is true too though I'm not a believer of perfect balance being possible, so you will always have some classes take more spots.

> > >

> > > That coupled with what people were saying about how arenanet view chronomancer (being very strong) is enough reason to expect balance changes down the road.

> > >

> > > Objectively chrono is on the overpowered side:

> > >

> > > - distortion

> > > - boon share

> > > - perma alacrity

> > > - perma quickness

> > > - strong 1v1

> > >

> > > Basically the only thing missing is a top tier damage build and chrono would be master of all aspects. Now personally I'm fine with chrono being this way since 90% of the game is about damage and support roles are slowly developing ever since they got added with HoT. It is a very strong elite though.

> >

> > Ah, okay. Yeah, that actually does make sense to me.

> >

> > For what it's worth, I do think there's something wrong if every raid group badly wants two players on the exact same elite spec. But I'm hesitant to embrace Chronomancer nerfs (or buffs to other sources of quickness and alacrity) until I can be assured that Mesmers of some kind will still bring something desirable to raid groups.

> >

> > I wonder what kind of difference just making alacrity target 10 players would make.

>

> Oh I'm not embracing chrono nerfs, I'm just expecting them. It's also the reason why I'm so overcritical of mesmer dps specs and not just okay with mediocre results because I doubt we'll be healers any time soon.

>

> It's basically bring utility (and enough warranting to get taken along) or bring damage. If you aren't good at either, you don't get to raid.

 

Yeah, I get you. I was just saying that I _would_ embrace Chronomancer nerfs _if_ Mesmers had other things they could bring to the table. For example, if Chronomancer had to choose between speccing for tanking or perma-quickness, and other specs could also do those things, _and_ they also all did comparable DPS while filling those roles? Cool. I'd be pretty happy with that. You'd have multiple good options for filling support roles and Chronomancer would be one of them.

 

But I think we both know that's not how balance works, not in GW2 or in most MMOs. If other specs can tank, apply permanent alacrity, or apply permanent quickness, but it's too spread out, then it's probably still going to be better to bring a Chronomancer that can do all three and nothing has changed. Meanwhile, if other specs can do one or more of those things _better_ than Chronomancer, or if Chronomancer's ability to do them is reduced, then you end up with the other extreme and Chronomancer gets the boot.

 

I don't envy ArenaNet the balancing position they're in, but it does seem like the very first thing to do would be to make sure non-Chronomancer Mesmer specs have more to bring to the table than "I guess it's mostly acceptable"-level DPS.

[Roda.7468]

Y'all've got me wondering about having people make full homogenous profession raid/fractal groups just to see what happens.

[Esplen.3940]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > What if I told you that a Power Mesmer requires 1 skill, and that's Signet of the Ether? What if I told you that all 3 utilities and their elite are free range for their choosing? What if I told you that Power Spike was a small DPS increase, but not a requirement for the build? What if I told you that Signet of Domination and Signet of Midnight account for less than 1% of the total output of the build? What if I told you that you already run Moa because the only competent alternative is Time Warp which does fairly little with 2 Chronos?

>

> You can slot out every utility, sure. And then your dps as mesmer will be far lower than those benchmarks. Other classes might not have to slot out anything, and still bring the same utility or cleave. How is this so hard to understand...

 

Power Mesmer's DPS drops by about 1% if you slot out the two utility signets and 3% if you slot out the Mantra.

 

> So my valid counter arguments are cheap arguments, but your minimal cleave is not. Don't you realise how biased your own argumentation is? Also you can all 4 raid wings with 4 condi warriors and never have any issues. Try that with 4 power mesmer. It'll work but be way less smooth.

>

> DH don't have permanent traps, but they don't have to exchange any utilitys for bringing them as well as their elite trap which is CC. They lose 0 dps.

>

> Elementalist fields are ranged and can be droped anywhere needed while not being restricitv to melee range, so are engi and ranger skills mostly.

 

60% is not minimal.

DH traps are used for DPS, if they are used for anything else (see CC), they lose dps.

Elementalist fields are ranged, but if they drop them at range, they lose boss DPS and are no longer considered cleaving. Sure, it gives them safe access to killing Gorseval Orbs and Xera Crystals, but melee people can kill Xera Crystals and Gorseval Orbs, they just tend not to.

 

Ranger DPS is very reliant on being melee. If you've looked at the Soulbeast (and core and druid) rotations, they utilize melee abilities as well as casting ranged abilities point blank for more effectiveness. Additionally, if you use those abilities from afar, you run the risk of not flanking, which also heavily lowers your damage output. If you were to run Condi Ranger against Deimos or Matthias, you're not going to pull very high numbers if you fight out of melee, and you'll actually be completely negating an entire weaponset while doing so (Dagger/Torch). Yes, you can use Axe/Torch from mid-range, but your Shortbow loses the fan and your Torch loses the Bonfire, both of which are your highest damaging abilities.

 

> Mesmer is tied to melee range with pathetic cleave.

 

60% is pathetic, TIL.

 

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > Low, as in floating around top3 DPS in actual raid statistics?

>

> First off, mesmer is placed 4.3d taking the average of the medianvalues (worse when viewing the 90% percentile) accross all 11 fights. Second, yes that's bad. THIS IS PRE POF STUFF....

 

4.3/9 is above the mean, meaning it's quite literally above the average.

 

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > Realistically, you aren't going to see anyone change up their rotation to cleave more, it's just a by-product of what they do. Mesmer provides a little bit of cleave. Sure, it's not their entire rotation, nor is it their entire damage output, but that's not what your claim was. Your claim was that Mesmer has no cleave.

> >

> > That is untrue. Mesmer does have cleave. It may not be as much as you want. It may not be as much as you need. But it does exist, and it's more than half their damage output.

>

> ....... semantics? Really? You are down to "well our cleave is low but it's there"?

 

And where in that chunk did I say it's low? I said it's not as much as **you** would want, and that's entirely true looking at your stance on it.

 

> Fine, I yeild. Mesmer cleave does exist and is to weak and restrictiv (mostly range wise) to matter. Happy? How does this change anything about my earlier arguments about other classes have to cover for them?

 

Okay, so since 60% to you is weak, low, minimal, and restrictive, then let's talk about range:

How much cleave does Condi Thief have? How much cleave does Dagger Ele (some condi variants) have? How much cleave does a Firebrand have? Oh right, it's 130 range, 2-3 targets. Hmmm, that seems oddly familiar.

 

> @apharma.3741 said:

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > I haven't been vouching for Condi Mesmer. You guys have been putting that in my mouth.

> >

>

> Really? So why put comments like

>

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > It's not though, because the logs show otherwise. You're looking at the data and saying "nah, I don't agree with it" and then making a subjective argument where I (and to some degree, Pyro) are using the data to pull a conclusion that Mesmer is a competent DPS role in raids.

> >

> > I've proven multiple boss fights where Mesmer is a solid and strong DPS role, and you can't see past Matthias. I will go out on a limb and assume that it's because the only place where a Mesmer is shown as "viable" on qT's page is Matthias and Cairn.

>

>

> If you aren’t vouching for for Condi Mesmer then why are you claiming to have proven multiple boss fights where it’s a strong dps role? We aren’t putting words in your mouth, the words are there on this very page.

 

Let me open your mind to this magical build called "Power Mesmer". It outperforms Condi Mesmer, not Mirage, with an easier rotation but has no range.

 

There is, however, one fight where Condi Mesmer outperforms it. This fight is known as Matthias. The reason why Condi Mesmer outperforms it is because it has range.

Note: Condi Mirage (as shown by qT) has no range. This will not perform better than Scepter versus Matthias even though your benchmark DPS is significantly lower.

 

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > I don't talk about Fractals because those require a more strict composition and fights should be fairly short with multiple phases outside of pugs, putting DPS Mesmer in an awkward situation.

>

> Yet it is entirely relevant as dps role is not exclusive to content especially when we consider the game has 2 endgame content fillers, CM fractals and raids. When we also start thinking of fractals as half a raid group and many do go into them with essentially half a raid group a class excluded from fractals because it is mechanically poor will generally not be regarded well for the other content and vice versa.

 

Fractal balance is not interchangeable with Raid balance. The compositions may align, but that's about where the line is drawn.

 

As I stated in the sentence you cut out for me: the fights are different. In Raids, you have one big bad boss that phases every few million health. In Fractals, you have lots of mini-bosses who phase every few hundred thousand health as well as lots of mini mechanics and fights where you have multiple targets at once.

[apharma.3741]

Esplan, if you don’t know by now that power mesmer also has a long build up in power then I don’t know where you’ve been for the last 4 years when frifox had his dps graph from the original dps meter. Power mesmer has the same inherent flaws as Condition Mesmer because the mechanics are the same or very similar, it still takes 20s+ to reach full damage even on power mesmer and again suffers from low cleave damage. Sure it’s not as bad as condi but it’s still not on par with other classes.

 

Also lol at ranging Matthias in 2017 and your entirely needlessly condescending vitriol about Matthias. Yes we all know mesmer is top on Matthias but we haven’t been talking only about Matthias.

 

You’re repeatedly ignoring the basis of what I’m saying, not that mesmer cannot do dps but that it has inherent mechanical flaws that make most other classes significantly better for the job. Not just better in damage but in QoL where you won’t have to worry about killing adds or your damage having to ramp up again or hitting certain dps checks or burn phases.

 

You do realise I said CM fractals right? You’ve done them or has the sack of potatoes you use to pug not managed to reach CM level _where it consists of pretty much 3 bosses and a few trash mobs/events in between?_ The difference between CM fractals and raids is academic at best.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> 60% is not minimal.

> DH traps are used for DPS, if they are used for anything else (see CC), they lose dps.

> Elementalist fields are ranged, but if they drop them at range, they lose boss DPS and are no longer considered cleaving. Sure, it gives them safe access to killing Gorseval Orbs and Xera Crystals, but melee people can kill Xera Crystals and Gorseval Orbs, they just tend not to.

>

> Ranger DPS is very reliant on being melee. If you've looked at the Soulbeast (and core and druid) rotations, they utilize melee abilities as well as casting ranged abilities point blank for more effectiveness. Additionally, if you use those abilities from afar, you run the risk of not flanking, which also heavily lowers your damage output. If you were to run Condi Ranger against Deimos or Matthias, you're not going to pull very high numbers if you fight out of melee, and you'll actually be completely negating an entire weaponset while doing so (Dagger/Torch). Yes, you can use Axe/Torch from mid-range, but your Shortbow loses the fan and your Torch loses the Bonfire, both of which are your highest damaging abilities.

>

 

DH traps have very low cds. If need be the ultimate can be not used in rotation for when CC is required within the next 30 seconds. Fact is, they don't have to exchange utilities and have their basic maximum damage build for the entire fight. Unlike mesmer which has to exchange utilities pre fight start.

 

True, I wouldn't be running condi ranger at all at the moment and definately not on those fights. Soulbeast does a ton more damage than mesmer.

 

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> 60% is pathetic, TIL.

 

60% with limitation of being melee rang IS pathetic.

 

> > > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > > Low, as in floating around top3 DPS in actual raid statistics?

> >

> > First off, mesmer is placed 4.3d taking the average of the medianvalues (worse when viewing the 90% percentile) accross all 11 fights. Second, yes that's bad. THIS IS PRE POF STUFF....

>

> 4.3/9 is above the mean, meaning it's quite literally above the average.

 

Last time I checked, it was 11 boss fights, not 9. So you divide by 11.

 

True, and there is other classes which are completely selfish (thief) with better damage that don;t get taken along. Have fun in that group.

 

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> Realistically, you aren't going to see anyone change up their rotation to cleave more, it's just a by-product of what they do. Mesmer provides a little bit of cleave. Sure, it's not their entire rotation, nor is it their entire damage output, but that's not what your claim was. Your claim was that Mesmer has no cleave.

>

> That is untrue. Mesmer does have cleave. It may not be as much as you want. It may not be as much as you need. But it does exist, and it's more than half their damage output.

>

> ....... semantics? Really? You are down to "well our cleave is low but it's there"?

>

> And where in that chunk did I say it's low? I said it's not as much as **you** would want, and that's entirely true looking at your stance on it.

 

Well other classes have a way higher "by-product" to their natural rotation. That's all that matters damage wise for classes which do not have this luxury to not get taken along.

 

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> Okay, so since 60% to you is weak, low, minimal, and restrictive, then let's talk about range:

> How much cleave does Condi Thief have? How much cleave does Dagger Ele (some condi variants) have? How much cleave does a Firebrand have? Oh right, it's 130 range, 2-3 targets. Hmmm, that seems oddly familiar.

 

I'm glad you are bringing this up. How many thiefs are you seeing in raid groups? How many dagger eles are being run(and those being run, how much damage do they bring compared to mesmer?)? Firebrand brings a lot more than good damage, he brings tons of utility AND higher damage than mesmer.

 

I'm done. You are purposfully arguing and omitting a lot of facts. This might be due to you being stubborn, massively raid inexperienced or simply trolling now. Either way I really don't care. First benchmarks are comming in for multiple classes, damage mesmer is not in a good spot in both performance and comparison.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> Esplan, if you don’t know by now that power mesmer also has a long build up in power then I don’t know where you’ve been for the last 4 years when frifox had his dps graph from the original dps meter. Power mesmer has the same inherent flaws as Condition Mesmer because the mechanics are the same or very similar, it still takes 20s+ to reach full damage even on power mesmer and again suffers from low cleave damage. Sure it’s not as bad as condi but it’s still not on par with other classes.

>

> Also lol at ranging Matthias in 2017 and your entirely needlessly condescending vitriol about Matthias. Yes we all know mesmer is top on Matthias but we haven’t been talking only about Matthias.

>

> You’re repeatedly ignoring the basis of what I’m saying, not that mesmer cannot do dps but that it has inherent mechanical flaws that make most other classes significantly better for the job. Not just better in damage but in QoL where you won’t have to worry about killing adds or your damage having to ramp up again or hitting certain dps checks or burn phases.

>

> You do realise I said CM fractals right? You’ve done them or has the sack of potatoes you use to pug not managed to reach CM level _where it consists of pretty much 3 bosses and a few trash mobs/events in between?_ The difference between CM fractals and raids is academic at best.

 

I'm quite convinced he's just trolling by now.

 

Also with the (not so new) new CM 100 fractal the argument can be made that currently fractal CM bosses are harder than raid bosses.

[Cyninja.2954]

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-path-of-fire/

 

Mirage with some very heavy drawbacks is midfield at best (if you consider being beat by 8 classes midfield, but yes some of those rorations are hard so let's call it midfield).

 

Some of the top tier dps bring higher damage, more utility and a very simple rotation.

 

Funny enough, Power mesmer isn't even on the list any more. Guess no one at qtfy thought it was worth putting in the benchmark.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> Funny enough, Power mesmer isn't even on the list any more. Guess no one at qtfy thought it was worth putting in the benchmark.

 

Yeah, things aren't in a great spot for any Power build and Power Mesmer was already towards the middle/bottom of that pack.

 

Path of Fire gave professions that already had good Condition Damage builds even better ones (with the exception of Thief, RIP), and didn't really do anything to improve Power builds for anyone except Engineer. So almost across the board, Condition builds went up and Power builds stayed where they were, which was, in most cases, already lower than Condition builds.

 

Power Mesmer was already in the "pretty okay but not amazing" category, so when everything else moves up and it stays the same, it has nowhere to go but down.

[Warlyx.6732]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > Funny enough, Power mesmer isn't even on the list any more. Guess no one at qtfy thought it was worth putting in the benchmark.

>

> Yeah, things aren't in a great spot for any Power build and Power Mesmer was already towards the middle/bottom of that pack.

>

> Path of Fire gave professions that already had good Condition Damage builds even better ones (with the exception of Thief, RIP), and didn't really do anything to improve Power builds for anyone except Engineer. So almost across the board, Condition builds went up and Power builds stayed where they were, which was, in most cases, already lower than Condition builds.

>

> Power Mesmer was already in the "pretty okay but not amazing" category, so when everything else moves up and it stays the same, it has nowhere to go but down.

 

i miss when power builds were all the rage , it was fun , POF looks like another condi expansion , grieveng gear put my hope up....then meh...

 

to be fair Anet hasnt touched power skillsets or traits at all , some little changes like %% more dmg here and there that barely changes anything