Akrasia.5469 Posted December 25, 2018 Author Share Posted December 25, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Akrasia.5469" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > I think this discussion highlights one of the central problems with fixing Necromancer and something I've made a point of, a time or two (to say the least). There is no true universal agreement on Necromancer problems and despite the number of times people in other threads claim the "majority" of players agrees with them there are players who like many of the things people want changed. I think trying to preserve the old Necromancer is one of the things that holds Necromancer back and since there are always going to be people who like Shroud and want Necromancer to be the same but just stronger. Shroud really does hold Necromancer back and the idea it can be preserved and everything be ok just won't work. It's been tried for six years. Scourge was really the first "out of box" solution they tried and it actually yielded some positive results. I think the fact that the OP rejects Scourge, rejects teleports, rejects the idea that Elites may be the only way, rejects the possibility that core features of Necromancer may need to go highlights that this isn't really about outside the box thinking since thus far everything that is actually out of the box has been rejected. I really do think that folks are going to have to get used to the idea that it is likely not possible to make the entire profession as good as the others in this game. It was one of the reasons why Elites were so good, they could fix something due to it being a core mechanic they were able to experiment to see what might work. > > > > > > The fact that Shroud acts both as an offensive and defensive power at once is always going hold Necromancer back. > > > > > > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > @"Akrasia.5469" said: > > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > > > > If your issue is the fact that the necromancer have a crapy way to mitigate damage, preventing shroud from doing crit damage won't help in any way, preventing stats from being meaningfull won't help either. To reach your "goal", you basically have to give up on the "shroud" being _the_ defensive mechanism which is an option that the scourge timidly try to offer with barriers sources being shared between F skills and utilities. There is no way around this ordeal, you have to thoroughly change the fact that the shroud is the defensive mechanism if you want the necromancer to compete fairly with other in reagrd of damage output. > > > > > > > > Now, there is room for that, but it imply that the 2nd life bar disapear in favor of barrier, allowing you to: > > > > - have DS#4 build barrier instead of life force > > > > - have the reaper's shout trait build barrier instead of leeching life. > > > > - have focus#4 becoming a defensive skill instead of an offensive skill, building barrier and probably weakening foes around you. > > > > - have spectral armor building barrier on top of it's current effects. > > > > - _Lich form_ could be replaced by _grim specter_. > > > > I actually like these ideas for defense > > > > > Thinking like this is the problem. GW2 isn't a DnD game, all professions make use of all stats. If you want balance you cannot make a profession totally disregard a stat because it give this profession an unfair advantage over the other professions. And thus make it unbalanced. > > > > The issue with this is that it's too close to the removal of the holy trinity idea the game started with but has actually moved away from somewhat. When the game launched they tried to make it so all classes could reasonably fill all roles. That failed and more specialization came along. Necro was put as the boon remover but the role itself has been nerfed as in PvE it's useless against most bosses and in PvP/WvW bursts are too quick to need long sustained single boons and the boons that are useful are pretty much spammable. This leaves necro with the role of a damage dealer. Now in a situation needing AoE, the class is great but otherwise, the class falls behind every other. No matter how they tweak the damage it seems necro will be stuck in this buff/nerf cycle. What is the issue? 1/2 every other player with a different class complaining and 1/2 lazy fixes on the devs parts. You can most certainly disregard a stat. Condi Reaper has not been seen in near a meta since they nerfed Deathly Chill. Condition damage itself was gone until Scourge. I'm talking about competitive builds, not about fun open world builds. Some classes are just better at certain things and I don't think the devs have to make a class have to be good at using every resource in the game. No utility crits no traited crits and leaves crits for weapon sets alone. That was my idea. Make shroud damage baseline so it's not used as a crit machine thus it's not always the main damage, more of a defense without losing a beat on base damage (meaning shroud dps should be near the same as weapon dps, up a bit or down a bit depending on build). Balance all of that with numbers and testing. Add dedicated damage boosts that don't rely on crit but traits and boons. I'm not saying any of this is absolute and a new ES may come along that uses crits (on it's traitline and it's mechanic) without breaking the class again but for now, it could work. It would be a rethinking of most current build strategies but people would adjust and probably open up many new ways to play. > > > > I am still up for better defensive skills/traits (I have an idea for one I'm about to post in a new thread GODS FORBID ;) and more mobility. I just think we should talk about other things to potentially fix the class. > > > > But seeing as most people hate this idea I'm putting it to rest. You can flame it again but I said my piece. Good luck all. > > > > Condition is not a stat, per se, but a series of states you place on a character. It is not comparable to the removal of precision. Condi Reaper being gone and Scourge as a condition damage dealer have no bearing on a conversation about removing crits. Their disappearance doesn't inform a discussion on removing crits. Your removal of crits wouldn't make anything better. Shroud for Reaper is not a defense mode but it's offensive mode. Reaper Shroud is intended to be the main source of damage. > > This isn't a matter of hating the idea. I will never get why people think not liking idea or knowing it won't work means people hate it. This has nothing to do with hate. The idea simply will not work. You've consistently ignored why crit was removed from some abilities which indicate you're not really getting the interplay for crits with most of Necromancer and when it can be removed to benefit Necromancer as opposed to hold it back. Sorry, I said I wouldn't comment again. I'm only doing so because you actually have had to misread my comment to reply as you did. I said "Condition Damage" which IS a stat. I'm comparing the removal of our dependence on Precision to the removal of depending on Condition Damage. Yes, it closes some doors but forces people to be creative without it. And since Precision itself isn't a damage type as are "Power" or "Condition" but more of an enhancement of damage and other things, I feel it's less of a loss to do away with most crits than to do away with a damage type stat like CD. Also, If you think Shroud for Reaper isn't a defense then you're not playing many Reaper builds. One of the main ideas of Spectral Onslaught and similar builds was to stay in Shroud as much as possible so as not to die. Rebuild LF quickly then get back into the safe zone. Yeah hit like a truck while there but also stay safe. I've gone into shroud just to make sure I cap a point or to perform a finisher if I'm low on health. Lastly (hopefully lol) I'm not completely ignoring crits interaction. I think this should be a rework. Part of a greater overhaul of the class. Maybe everyone is right and it's not the right overhaul. I just don't think adding the abilities of other classes is the way to do it. I don't think getting completely rid of our main mechanic is the solution either. I really love necro and dislike a lot of Fkey skills which is why I'm not fond of Scourge. I like a transforming character as a mechanic. I'd like to see a primarily necro way to solve our issues. Alternatives to the sustain and mobility issues could be something like an unavoidable fear(which would be a hard counter instead of a block or evade) and unavoidable chill to help put our mobility on an even playing field. Similar ideas really haven't happened because of devs caving into player complaints. Which (hopefully my last word on the subject) will make it that no matter what they do with this class, it will never truly be fixed permanently when 75-80% of the player base doesn't want to be outshined by necros.. Again good luck in all your adventures folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 25, 2018 Share Posted December 25, 2018 I don't get what problem this solves; I think it's a bad assumption that Anet would view crit removal and front end loading of DPS into traits/effects as a change that would logically result in a buff for mobility/sustain. If I was a dev, my first instinct is that relieving a class of the need to spec for high damage with crit specs is a major buff to the class. You get the following: 1) built in DPS from traits/effects 2) freedom to choose more defensive stat choices on Gear, of which there are many Frankly, I don't see this as being a good thing overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero.3871 Posted December 25, 2018 Share Posted December 25, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > I honestly don't get what problem this solves. You're just removing the need for precision to achieve a similar amount of DPS with your proposal. If I was a dev, my first instinct is that this is a major buff to the class and **I would nerf your sustain/mobility accordingly**, because I'm giving you two things: ehhm...what do you want to nerf? i mean how want they nerf something that doesnt exist? do they want create a skill that applies vulnerability to the necromancer itself to increase the dmg on necro? ohhhhhh, they already did? -> consume conditions or do they want to create a trait that apply cripple to the necromancer itself, so he moves still slowler than already? ohhh they ALSO did?! -> master of corruption + corrosive Poison Cloud. emh, i dont know exactly if it is still possible to nerf necro mobility and Sustain. sry bro... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 25, 2018 Share Posted December 25, 2018 > @"Zero.3871" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > I honestly don't get what problem this solves. You're just removing the need for precision to achieve a similar amount of DPS with your proposal. If I was a dev, my first instinct is that this is a major buff to the class and **I would nerf your sustain/mobility accordingly**, because I'm giving you two things: > > ehhm...what do you want to nerf? i mean how want they nerf something that doesnt exist? If there is no trade off between front loading DPS and mobility/sustain, then there just isn't a case for removing crits in the first place IMO. If we are just going to be handed massive amounts of DPS in a 'free' way, something's going to go. Removal of crits is free if that DPS just gets transferred to other places. Not just a little free either. That has massive implications to choosing prefixes on your gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero.3871 Posted December 25, 2018 Share Posted December 25, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Zero.3871" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > I honestly don't get what problem this solves. You're just removing the need for precision to achieve a similar amount of DPS with your proposal. If I was a dev, my first instinct is that this is a major buff to the class and **I would nerf your sustain/mobility accordingly**, because I'm giving you two things: > > > > ehhm...what do you want to nerf? i mean how want they nerf something that doesnt exist? > > If there is no trade off between front loading DPS and mobility/sustain, then there just isn't a case for removing crits in the first place IMO. If we are just going to be handed massive amounts of DPS in a 'free' way, something's going to go. Removal of crits is free if that DPS just gets transferred to other places. Not just a little free either. That has massive implications to choosing prefixes on your gear. just to say it, remove crits is a terrible idea anyway. and i agree, there has to be a trade off between Sustain and dmg. but atm you cannot trade of mobility/ Sustain for dmg or vice versa on necro. because there is just no mobility/Sustain you could trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 25, 2018 Share Posted December 25, 2018 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit This chart should say it all. If we assume even some low level of Crit (40%) with the base crit damage (150%), Anet would have to front load ALL DPS skills on that class by 20% to remove criting from it to maintain that level of DPS. I'm not even sure that's a damage shift defensive skills could handle in competitive aspects of this game; this game already favours the offensive position as it is. It would completely unbalance things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akrasia.5469 Posted December 25, 2018 Author Share Posted December 25, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit > > This chart should say it all. If we assume even some low level of Crit (40%) with the base crit damage (150%), Anet would have to front load ALL DPS skills on that class by 20% to remove criting from it to maintain that level of DPS. I'm not even sure that's a damage shift defensive skills could handle in competitive aspects of this game; this game already favours the offensive position as it is. It would completely unbalance things. > > DAMIT "I tried to get out but they keep pulling me back in" People don't understand my proposal at all. I'm not saying necros don't crit at all. I'm not saying you can't take precision. I'm just saying take crit off of a lot of utility skills and traits and up their damage, on a case by case basis, to compensate. NOT REMOVE ALL CRITS FROM THE CLASS. I also said crits should stay on equipped weapon sets but not shroud. If people would read, this was said at the beginning. Did I fully theorycraft this to get all the numbers? NO. So basically if you want to keep some precision for some interactions it would mostly from weapons. If you wanted full power DPS using weapons and precision, you could still do so, but you could also have decent damage (enough to be somewhat of a threat if not a nuker) and spec into utility or hybrid or healer or something that hasn't even been seen. Lastly, (hopefully) this is not a fix loosely applied to what we have. It's meant as part of an overhaul. So, it's not meant to break any of the current builds. It's meant to throw out nearly every build we have and start over. Devs would have to playtest every skill and trait to see what boost is needed and what interactions would work with them. I wouldn't expect something like this until the next expansion at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 25, 2018 Share Posted December 25, 2018 OK, that's fair ... you have a **select** group of skills you want to remove criting from and frontload by upping baseline damage. I mean, you are right ... Anet is sort of already doing this. I think the reason they are moving to that is because it lacks counterplay; they are big on having counterplay available for stuff. I guess my hangup is that it makes the choice of taking stats for criting less meaningful than they already are; Power buffs DPS the most, then Precision and finally Ferocity. Removing skills that crit (and mind you I don't like that Anet is doing it either) eventually result in swaying people to more defensive oriented stats. Maybe that's what Anet wants, but I would let it happen naturally; I wouldn't promote it actively as a suggestion because I still believe it would be viewed as a 'benefit' to the class if it has a disproportionate number of skills it can't crit on compared to others. I still have to admit, I still really don't see why or how it would cause people to throw out all their builds and start over. maybe the builds would be different but the class and how it plays still doesn't change that much. it just feels like change for the sake of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted December 25, 2018 Share Posted December 25, 2018 > @"Akrasia.5469" said: > Sorry, I said I wouldn't comment again. I'm only doing so because you actually have had to misread my comment to reply as you did. I said "Condition Damage" which IS a stat. I'm comparing the removal of our dependence on Precision to the removal of depending on Condition Damage. Yes, it closes some doors but forces people to be creative without it. And since Precision itself isn't a damage type as are "Power" or "Condition" but more of an enhancement of damage and other things, I feel it's less of a loss to do away with most crits than to do away with a damage type stat like CD. > mmmm, no I didn't. I said "condition is not a stat, per se" indicating your comparison wasn't on the stat but a series of builds that was relying on a bunch of mechanics outside of a single set of stats, unlike Precision. The removal of condi Reaper is nowhere near the same as the removal of Precision as condi Reaper is a build type and you're not discussing build types but stats. Part of the strength of a condition build isn't just the Condition Damage stat but also duration, and individual conditions you can drop. Precision doesn't operate on this level. The removal of criting from a series of abilities is not the same as an entire build type no longer being viable. Also, you're no forcing people to be creative. You're just handicaping them. > Also, If you think Shroud for Reaper isn't a defense then you're not playing many Reaper builds. One of the main ideas of Spectral Onslaught and similar builds was to stay in Shroud as much as possible so as not to die. Rebuild LF quickly then get back into the safe zone. Yeah hit like a truck while there but also stay safe. I've gone into shroud just to make sure I cap a point or to perform a finisher if I'm low on health. > I play plenty of Reaper builds. Reaper Shroud has a shorter duration in part because its main objective is to kill. It offers some defense but you're main goal when in Reaper Shroud is to finish people off, not defense. Being able to use something for defense and it being a true defense are two seperate things. Like Death Shroud you can enter it for defense. It works at its best when you are using it for its offense. > Lastly (hopefully lol) I'm not completely ignoring crits interaction. I think this should be a rework. Part of a greater overhaul of the class. Maybe everyone is right and it's not the right overhaul. I just don't think adding the abilities of other classes is the way to do it. I don't think getting completely rid of our main mechanic is the solution either. I really love necro and dislike a lot of Fkey skills which is why I'm not fond of Scourge. I like a transforming character as a mechanic. I'd like to see a primarily necro way to solve our issues. Alternatives to the sustain and mobility issues could be something like an unavoidable fear(which would be a hard counter instead of a block or evade) and unavoidable chill to help put our mobility on an even playing field. Similar ideas really haven't happened because of devs caving into player complaints. Which (hopefully my last word on the subject) will make it that no matter what they do with this class, it will never truly be fixed permanently when 75-80% of the player base doesn't want to be outshined by necros.. > You are ignoring crit interactions as your suggestion in no way accounts for them. Also, as much as you like Necromancer what you like are the elements that hold it back. There's no getting around this. It's cool to like them. It's also cool to not want to change them. But if you don't want to change them then you have to accept Necromancers place in the meta. They've tried to make Shroud get Necromancer to where it should be and it hasn't worked. Scourge pushed Necromancer further than Reaper. Necromancer and Reaper are pretty much stuck where they are at. They may go up and down but they aren't going to truly be what many Necromancer players want. Their only hope is pretty much future Elites that aren't held back by the mechanics that hold back Core and Reaper. You blame player complaints but you actually are part of the 75-80% as you really don't want Necromancer to be transformed into something that is more viable. The issue isn't that folks don't want to be outshined by Necromancer. Everyone complains about everyone else pretty much. The problem is that Necromancer mechanics tend to work in such a way as if they are strong they tend to be too strong and if they are weak they tend to be too weak. This is the result of design issues with Necromancer mechanics, something you don't want them to change. You've claimed you wanted out of the box solutions but you've resisted the actual out of box solutions and pretty much advocated either things that won't work or pretty much stronger versions of things Necromancer already has, which is not out of the box. > @"Akrasia.5469" said: > kitten "I tried to get out but they keep pulling me back in" > People don't understand my proposal at all. I'm not saying necros don't crit at all. I'm not saying you can't take precision. I'm just saying take crit off of a lot of utility skills and traits and up their damage, on a case by case basis, to compensate. NOT REMOVE ALL CRITS FROM THE CLASS. I also said crits should stay on equipped weapon sets but not shroud. If people would read, this was said at the beginning. Did I fully theorycraft this to get all the numbers? NO. So basically if you want to keep some precision for some interactions it would mostly from weapons. If you wanted full power DPS using weapons and precision, you could still do so, but you could also have decent damage (enough to be somewhat of a threat if not a nuker) and spec into utility or hybrid or healer or something that hasn't even been seen. Lastly, (hopefully) this is not a fix loosely applied to what we have. It's meant as part of an overhaul. So, it's not meant to break any of the current builds. It's meant to throw out nearly every build we have and start over. Devs would have to playtest every skill and trait to see what boost is needed and what interactions would work with them. I wouldn't expect something like this until the next expansion at least. No we got what you meant the first time. It just doesn't work. You continue to reiterate we don't understand your plan but we do. However, instead of actually responding to what people have said about why its a bad idea you continue to insist that folks don't get what you are saying and just restate your already flawed position. We understand your plan. It is a bad idea, through and through. None of what you say would happen would acutally happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akrasia.5469 Posted December 25, 2018 Author Share Posted December 25, 2018 I also said this is one main change that would be added to a couple more to overhaul necro. Yes, I agree with the defense and mobility issues people always mention. I suggested heavy crit based traits, for example, Death Perception could be removed for sustain and mobility traits. I have posted ideas that address general sustain issues like giving a 1-2sec invulnerability upon entering shroud and or traits to make fear or chill unavoidable. Something like these is definitely needed, but my main thought is making shroud damage more flat to push it more to a slightly more defensive position still with decent damage rather than the only powerful burst necros have. Reapers can have more than 130% crit chance with Decimate Defenses & Death Perception as well as +600 ferocity w/Reapers Onslaught in shroud. There is no other way to burst power damage like this. With flatter shroud damage the devs could fix our weapons, for example, axe1 to the damage they should be without fear that it's going to scale to crazy levels when in shroud. Then maybe we can support better weapon based builds and not be accused of having our main offense and defense with a 2nd hitpoint bar. Shroud would be for sustain and additional utility through a new skill bar. An unavoidable radius fear (like a traited Terrify) could be like a block/invulnerability as it interrupts all attackers. Stats like concentration and Runes to increase boon uptime could be what helps our bursts with might & quickness and mobility with swiftness uptime. I really like that people are talking about the idea as it's a thought for a big fix and not the patch job we get all the time "or just new Elite Specializations that leave the rest of the class behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akrasia.5469 Posted December 25, 2018 Author Share Posted December 25, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > No we got what you meant the first time. It just doesn't work. You continue to reiterate we don't understand your plan but we do. However, instead of actually responding to what people have said about why its a bad idea you continue to insist that folks don't get what you are saying and just restate your already flawed position. We understand your plan. It is a bad idea, through and through. None of what you say would happen would acutally happen. > Actually, at least 1 person understood with some clarity what I was going for (read the replies). I even admitted with a lot of replies that it may not work. It would take a lot of tweaking several skills and traits for balance and may not be something the devs want to do. I do not think people reading the title of my post really replied in an unbiased way and that was my fault for exaggerating my proposal. I said that YOU didn't understand because you were not clear in your last response. You didn't address that I was comparing Condition Damage and while I don't dispute your rebuttal of my Condi Reaper argument you never mentioned anything like that in your previous reply. I'm not here to win an argument I'm here to brainstorm ways to fix issues with the class without destroying the core features. I believe the core features of the class are Shroud, Corruption (boon corruption, siphoning and self-corruption), Hexing (conditions that hinder but not necessarily do damage, Chill and Fear being class defining) and Minions. Almost all necro builds are built around 2 or more of these core features. Shroud is always an option but not every build uses shroud 50% of the time or more so in those builds, I'm not counting the build as centered around it. I don't think getting rid of the mechanic is anything more than a lazy fix. Shroud has held the class back more because we don't have the tools to support it more which makes it seem like just a broken mechanic. The biggest complaints are lack of a true defense and lack of mobility. With the DPS creep of this game, there is certainly the ability to kill even good necros with 50k total hp (counting shroud). An active defense mechanic would just make survival more skill based than stat based. There is room for that with the shroud but the theme has kept the devs from giving us that tool. Read my last reply before this one with ideas for sustain that can work with shroud. It also has ideas for mobility for our slow class. > The problem is that Necromancer mechanics tend to work in such a way as if they are strong they tend to be too strong and if they are weak they tend to be too weak. This is the result of design issues with Necromancer mechanics, something you don't want them to change. I can respect your opinion that shroud is what's holding us back but I can also respectfully disagree. Reaper and Scourge were both in the meta in sPvP until recently. The changes they made destroyed most of the reaper builds that were top tier. It was plainly obvious that they would but it was done. I more suspect this was to keep the game evolving than to truly balance it. Was Spectral Onslaught really that OP? If it was too powerful couldn't they just play with the numbers to balance it? You're saying Shroud held the class back but 2 of the 3 versions of necro were all viable at the same time. I played the SO build and while it was very good it wasn't OP. I don't think it was game-changing and it didn't solve issues in other game types like PvE. Reaper hit 30k DPS so was viable in Raids. OP? NO. Still overlooked by a lot of groups. So the current set of nerfs was because of being OP? I don't buy your arguments because I want to fix the class as a whole. Saying my idea sucks is fine. Giving up on 2/3 of the class because Scourge is the flavor of the hour is not fine. If the next set of patches make Scourge subpar and Core or Reaper top tier then what then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted December 25, 2018 Share Posted December 25, 2018 > @"Akrasia.5469" said: > With flatter shroud damage the devs could fix our weapons, for example, axe1 to the damage they should be without fear that it's going to scale to crazy levels when in shroud. Then maybe we can support better weapon based builds and not be accused of having our main offense and defense with a 2nd hitpoint bar. Shroud would be for sustain and additional utility through a new skill bar. An unavoidable radius fear (like a traited Terrify) could be like a block/invulnerability as it interrupts all attackers. Stats like concentration and Runes to increase boon uptime could be what helps our bursts with might & quickness and mobility with swiftness uptime. > > I really like that people are talking about the idea as it's a thought for a big fix and not the patch job we get all the time "or just new Elite Specializations that leave the rest of the class behind. Ok... you fondamentally don't understand why Axe#1 damage is kept "low". Shroud isn't the reason, the reason it's kept low is because Axe#1 is a ranged attack that isn't a "projectile" which allow it to bypass "range counterplay". Necromancer's weapons were designed with the idea of packing the utility while utilities were mainly "damage skill". This is not due to shroud but due to the necromancer's minions, simply because there was no way they would have tied minions to a weapon and thematically minions are a must for a necromancer. This force weapon to be on the "crappy" side and prevent "better weapon based build" by itself. The shroud saw himself improved in damage output because, except for condi builds, the weapon aren't designed to carry your dps and there was a need to increase the profession "skillcap" so that the gameplay don't end up being auto-attacking and using utility skills on CD. A necromancer with a purely defensive shroud like you suggest is bound to be extremly boring to play while confirming other professions in despising the necromancer for being a low damage meat shield and that's what ANet try to correct. It's not that we don't understand what you mean, it's just that we can clearly see that it's a step backward instead of a step forward. It can only lower the necromancer as a whole if it happen and we don't want to see the necromancer lowered even more than he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted December 25, 2018 Share Posted December 25, 2018 > @"Akrasia.5469" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > No we got what you meant the first time. It just doesn't work. You continue to reiterate we don't understand your plan but we do. However, instead of actually responding to what people have said about why its a bad idea you continue to insist that folks don't get what you are saying and just restate your already flawed position. We understand your plan. It is a bad idea, through and through. None of what you say would happen would acutally happen. > > > Actually, at least 1 person understood with some clarity what I was going for (read the replies). I've read the replies. I read the replies before I posted my reply. It changes nothing about what I have said. You don't actually engage with why your idea is bad. You consistently insist that others don't understand what you're talking about. You consistently show a lack of understanding on the dynamics of how the stats work, especially in regards to Necromancer. Everyone in this conversation understands what you are saying. The idea isn't that complicated. For as much as you claim no one understands you you still display that you don't actually understand the mechanics you seek to change. Nothing you've said touches upon what's wrong. Nothing you've said shows an understanding of the interplay involved. You just make broad and sweeping proclamations about the changes you want to make while at no point displaying a working knowledge of why Necromancer works the way it does. This isn't just me saying this. You have been told by multiple people that you are missing the point behind the mechanics at play. > I even admitted with a lot of replies that it may not work. It would take a lot of tweaking several skills and traits for balance and may not be something the devs want to do. I do not think people reading the title of my post really replied in an unbiased way and that was my fault for exaggerating my proposal. I said that YOU didn't understand because you were not clear in your last response. You didn't address that I was comparing Condition Damage and while I don't dispute your rebuttal of my Condi Reaper argument you never mentioned anything like that in your previous reply. Tweaking is an understatement. Also, I addressed what you were comparing. Just because I chose not to specifical address a particular point doesn't mean I don't understand. It typically means I don't think what you had to say is worth directly addressing. Besides, you have no room to talk since at no point have you ever directly addressed any of my counter-arguments. If I applied the logic you just did then I'd have to say that you don't understand my counter-arguments. > I'm not here to win an argument I'm here to brainstorm ways to fix issues with the class without destroying the core features. You're not engaged in brainstorming. If that were the case you wouldn't have rejected the actual out of box ideas. You can't propose bad ideas, reject everything that doesn't line up with how you want things to work, not interact with the counter-arguments, and not engage the actual issues at play and call it brainstorming. This is not a brainstorming thread. This is a thread where you spouted an idea and then have stuck too that idea no matter what others have said. That is the opposite of brainstorming. >I believe the core features of the class are Shroud, Corruption (boon corruption, siphoning and self-corruption), Hexing (conditions that hinder but not necessarily do damage, Chill and Fear being class defining) and Minions. Almost all necro builds are built around 2 or more of these core features. Shroud is always an option but not every build uses shroud 50% of the time or more so in those builds, I'm not counting the build as centered around it. I don't think getting rid of the mechanic is anything more than a lazy fix. Lazy fix? If it doesn't work it isn't a lazy fix to get rid of it. This is more proof that you aren't interested in brainstorming or having a real out of box discussion. If you were open to a real out of box discussion you'd actually regard the removal of Shroud as a feasible idea if it worked. Scourge shows us how far Necromancer might be able to go if they address one of the core issues, Shroud. >Shroud has held the class back more because we don't have the tools to support it more which makes it seem like just a broken mechanic. The biggest complaints are lack of a true defense and lack of mobility. Yes, Shroud is the reason this is the case. This is a balance issue. So long as Shroud is a factor Necromancer will lack true defense. > With the DPS creep of this game, there is certainly the ability to kill even good necros with 50k total hp (counting shroud). An active defense mechanic would just make survival more skill based than stat based. There is room for that with the shroud but the theme has kept the devs from giving us that tool. Read my last reply before this one with ideas for sustain that can work with shroud. It also has ideas for mobility for our slow class. I've read your posts. You don't understand Shroud either. > I can respect your opinion that shroud is what's holding us back but I can also respectfully disagree. You're free to disagree but I'm not wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Posted December 25, 2018 Share Posted December 25, 2018 You have to understand that most people on th forum aren’t good theory crafters. The OP’s argument is perfectly valid. I’ve said this already and I won’t repeat it again. The changes to Onslaught and deaths Perception have both been a beneficial change to reaper in terms of build diversity, for the sole reason that they add stats that we no longer need (ferocity and precision) and has allowed it to be possibl to choose other stat sets as well as other traitlines outside of spite The reason people still chose spite in the last meta and Paladin amulet is so that they could do the most damage While having passive unmitigated damagein the form of vitality and toughness. It was the lazy attempt at forming a meta build that stuck to the former metas playstyle, to say the least. ( I mean come on,the meta had Chrono Manser ruins with Wells on a build that already provides quickness via on slot Onslaught lol) I’ve already stated why the OP’s change would be beneficial to build diversity but unhealthy for the state of the game . On top of that, the other traitlines aren’t very well made...so problems would still exist but that was not addressed by the OP and really wasn’t in the Conversation to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akrasia.5469 Posted December 25, 2018 Author Share Posted December 25, 2018 > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > You have to understand that most people on th forum aren’t good theory crafters. > > The OP’s argument is perfectly valid. I’ve said this already and I won’t repeat it again. > > The changes to Onslaught and deaths Perception have both been a beneficial change to reaper in terms of build diversity, for the sole reason that they add stats that we no longer need (ferocity and precision) and has allowed it to be possibl to choose other stat sets as well as other traitlines outside of spite > > The reason people still chose spite in the last meta and Paladin amulet is so that they could do the most damage While having passive unmitigated damagein the form of vitality and toughness. It was the lazy attempt at forming a meta build that stuck to the former metas playstyle, to say the least. ( I mean come on,the meta had Chrono Manser ruins with Wells on a build that already provides quickness via on slot Onslaught lol) > > I’ve already stated why the OP’s change would be beneficial to build diversity but unhealthy for the state of the game . On top of that, the other traitlines aren’t very well made...so problems would still exist but that was not addressed by the OP and really wasn’t in the Conversation to begin with. I agree with everything said and actually admitted that it's not a great fix after all the arguments against it. I'm not defending the idea with the same fervor that some oppose it with. You're the only one that has directly stated why the idea is valid but also bad without going off on a tangent. You also see where I come from with the idea as it's not out of the blue and is something that has happened gradually. I just posted it because if the devs want to make this kind of change then halfassing it will just lead to more flip flopping and we'll see the super necro in some areas and then quickly nerfed and repeat. So my idea to get rid of most crits was saying the devs should just do what they have been but actually commit to the big overhaul instead of creeping it in and causing more damage IMHO. > @"Dace.8173" said: > You're not engaged in brainstorming. If that were the case you wouldn't have rejected the actual out of box ideas. You can't propose bad ideas, reject everything that doesn't line up with how you want things to work, not interact with the counter-arguments, and not engage the actual issues at play and call it brainstorming. This is not a brainstorming thread. This is a thread where you spouted an idea and then have stuck too that idea no matter what others have said. That is the opposite of brainstorming. > > Lazy fix? If it doesn't work it isn't a lazy fix to get rid of it. This is more proof that you aren't interested in brainstorming or having a real out of box discussion. If you were open to a real out of box discussion you'd actually regard the removal of Shroud as a feasible idea if it worked. Scourge shows us how far Necromancer might be able to go if they address one of the core issues, Shroud. > > >Shroud has held the class back more because we don't have the tools to support it more which makes it seem like just a broken mechanic. The biggest complaints are lack of a true defense and lack of mobility. > > Yes, Shroud is the reason this is the case. This is a balance issue. So long as Shroud is a factor Necromancer will lack true defense. Yes Dace, this is brainstorming. It's one topic and I haven't rejected out of box ideas and in fact, this is a pretty radical change I brought up. I'm not defending the faults with the idea either. Now you are actually much less flexible than I am as your only train of thought is that shroud needs to go away. I say no to that as Shroud is a primary part of the class just as pets are to rangers and clones/illusions are to mesmers. If you change a thing so much that it doesn't resemble the original thing then it's not the same thing. It might as well not be called necromancer and just be a different class entirely. Scourge is ok for an ES but shouldn't be the base of all future updates to the class. Scourge play wise and thematically seem like a blend of Mesmer and Elementalist. It has very little resemblance to necro. While it's cool to have the option to do something different it's shortsighted and narrowminded to think there's only 1 solution to improve what's wrong. I never even suggested my idea was the only fix or even an entire fix. Maybe you should lose some of the arrogance and maybe you'll add more than just an argument. Nowhere in this thread did you ever really suggest anything. You just agreed with what other people said and used it as an excuse to push for the removal of shroud which wasn't even original itself. Even when it was pointed out to you(by another poster) that the suggested idea has already happened to a lesser degree, you were pretty dismissive of the point. Like I said I'm not here to argue or to boost my ego. I'm here to help have discussions that can improve the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > You have to understand that most people on th forum aren’t good theory crafters. > > The OP’s argument is perfectly valid. I’ve said this already and I won’t repeat it again. > > The changes to Onslaught and deaths Perception have both been a beneficial change to reaper in terms of build diversity, for the sole reason that they add stats that we no longer need (ferocity and precision) and has allowed it to be possibl to choose other stat sets as well as other traitlines outside of spite > > The reason people still chose spite in the last meta and Paladin amulet is so that they could do the most damage While having passive unmitigated damagein the form of vitality and toughness. It was the lazy attempt at forming a meta build that stuck to the former metas playstyle, to say the least. ( I mean come on,the meta had Chrono Manser ruins with Wells on a build that already provides quickness via on slot Onslaught lol) > > I’ve already stated why the OP’s change would be beneficial to build diversity but unhealthy for the state of the game . On top of that, the other traitlines aren’t very well made...so problems would still exist but that was not addressed by the OP and really wasn’t in the Conversation to begin with. Two abilities being better after a change does not mean additional changes along those same lines will work. This goes double when you are suggesting additional changes without taking into consideration why some of these changes are occurring. The OP completely ignores why Chill of Death, Chilling Nova, Spiteful Spirit, Weakening Shroud where changed in the first place and why those changes would likely be good changes in the long term in order to make a broad statement about what would benefit Necromancer. Simply removing the ability to crit without any consideration into why it's occurring doesn't lead to an actual good change for Necromancer. Since the OP ignored the why his analysis of how his changes could benefit Necromancer is flawed and rests on assumptions about what would happen next that you simply cannot make and assume would just happen. He consistently makes an argument about the nature of changes to Necromancer that simply are not true, such as ANet gradually pushing Necromancer away from crits when it stands in direct contradiction to the statements they've made on the matter. > @"Akrasia.5469" said: > Yes Dace, this is brainstorming. It's one topic and I haven't rejected out of box ideas and in fact, this is a pretty radical change I brought up. I'm not defending the faults with the idea either. Now you are actually much less flexible than I am as your only train of thought is that shroud needs to go away. I say no to that as Shroud is a primary part of the class just as pets are to rangers and clones/illusions are to mesmers. If you change a thing so much that it doesn't resemble the original thing then it's not the same thing. It might as well not be called necromancer and just be a different class entirely. Scourge is ok for an ES but shouldn't be the base of all future updates to the class. Scourge play wise and thematically seem like a blend of Mesmer and Elementalist. It has very little resemblance to necro. While it's cool to have the option to do something different it's shortsighted and narrowminded to think there's only 1 solution to improve what's wrong. I never even suggested my idea was the only fix or even an entire fix. Maybe you should lose some of the arrogance and maybe you'll add more than just an argument. Nowhere in this thread did you ever really suggest anything. You just agreed with what other people said and used it as an excuse to push for the removal of shroud which wasn't even original itself. Even when it was pointed out to you(by another poster) that the suggested idea has already happened to a lesser degree, you were pretty dismissive of the point. Like I said I'm not here to argue or to boost my ego. I'm here to help have discussions that can improve the class. No, this really isn't brainstorming. You have rejected several out of the box ideas. No this is not a radical change. Removing crit is in no way radical (incidently you can't have it both ways. If this is a radical idea then it would stand to reason they haven't really done this before. You, however, are arguing that this is part of a pattern they are engaged in which would mean its not radical if they are already doing it slowly. It cannot be both radical and something they are already engaged in. Pick one). That claims ignores some of the numerous discussions held on solving Necromancer's issues. You can claim I'm less flexible but I'm not. I've only rejected a failed idea. You've rejected several ideas and insisting on pushing a failed idea. It amuses me that you claim you are making a radical change when you construct a response that rejects actual radical changes to the profession on the grounds of "just be a different class entirely." You want radical so long as radical provides you with the elements you favor, which really isn't all that radical. Your entire discussion on Scourge is a rejection of out of the box ideas and a radical change. All in support in a narrow definition of Necromancer. As for arrogance, nawwww I like it. I'm fine with it. I see no real reason why I need to change for anyone online. I have also, on numerous occasions, made arguments about changes that could fix Necromancer. Not in this thread mind you but the fact that I don't do it here doesn't mean I haven't on several occasions discussed the matter. I haven't suggested anything in this thread because this thread argues from a flawed premise and so long as you hold onto that flawed premise I see no real benefit in other suggestions (which I know you'd reject anyway). And yeah, another poster backed you, that doesn't make you right. If we really want to walk down that road, that another poster pointed something out to me and I ignored it then I'd have to say there are more people who agreed with me on the issue than agreed with you. On those terms alone, the collective agreement in the thread is that you (and by extension him) are wrong. Your idea hasn't been tried. Have they removed crits in the past? Yes. However, not for the reasons that you have listed. I don't disagree that they have done so. That's plain to see. I just understand why they did so and as such see why what you suggest doesn't work. When they have removed crit damage in the past it has been for very specific goals and not this general "halfassed" movement away from crits that you insist is going on (in stark contradiction to their own reasons for why these changes have occurred). I also don't happen to think there is more than one solution. I've seen numerous good suggestions and I've engaged in conversations in which such changes were discussed. Yours just doesn't fall into that category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > You have to understand that most people on th forum aren’t good theory crafters. > > > > The OP’s argument is perfectly valid. I’ve said this already and I won’t repeat it again. > > > > The changes to Onslaught and deaths Perception have both been a beneficial change to reaper in terms of build diversity, for the sole reason that they add stats that we no longer need (ferocity and precision) and has allowed it to be possibl to choose other stat sets as well as other traitlines outside of spite > > > > The reason people still chose spite in the last meta and Paladin amulet is so that they could do the most damage While having passive unmitigated damagein the form of vitality and toughness. It was the lazy attempt at forming a meta build that stuck to the former metas playstyle, to say the least. ( I mean come on,the meta had Chrono Manser ruins with Wells on a build that already provides quickness via on slot Onslaught lol) > > > > I’ve already stated why the OP’s change would be beneficial to build diversity but unhealthy for the state of the game . On top of that, the other traitlines aren’t very well made...so problems would still exist but that was not addressed by the OP and really wasn’t in the Conversation to begin with. > > Two abilities being better after a change does not mean additional changes along those same lines will work. This goes double when you are suggesting additional changes without taking into consideration why some of these changes are occurring. The OP completely ignores why Chill of Death, Chilling Nova, Spiteful Spirit, Weakening Shroud where changed in the first place and why those changes would likely be good changes in the long term in order to make a broad statement about what would benefit Necromancer. Simply removing the ability to crit without any consideration into why it's occurring doesn't lead to an actual good change for Necromancer. Since the OP ignored the why his analysis of how his changes could benefit Necromancer is flawed and rests on assumptions about what would happen next that you simply cannot make and assume would just happen. He consistently makes an argument about the nature of changes to Necromancer that simply are not true, such as ANet gradually pushing Necromancer away from crits when it stands in direct contradiction to the statements they've made on the matter. > > > @"Akrasia.5469" said: > > Yes Dace, this is brainstorming. It's one topic and I haven't rejected out of box ideas and in fact, this is a pretty radical change I brought up. I'm not defending the faults with the idea either. Now you are actually much less flexible than I am as your only train of thought is that shroud needs to go away. I say no to that as Shroud is a primary part of the class just as pets are to rangers and clones/illusions are to mesmers. If you change a thing so much that it doesn't resemble the original thing then it's not the same thing. It might as well not be called necromancer and just be a different class entirely. Scourge is ok for an ES but shouldn't be the base of all future updates to the class. Scourge play wise and thematically seem like a blend of Mesmer and Elementalist. It has very little resemblance to necro. While it's cool to have the option to do something different it's shortsighted and narrowminded to think there's only 1 solution to improve what's wrong. I never even suggested my idea was the only fix or even an entire fix. Maybe you should lose some of the arrogance and maybe you'll add more than just an argument. Nowhere in this thread did you ever really suggest anything. You just agreed with what other people said and used it as an excuse to push for the removal of shroud which wasn't even original itself. Even when it was pointed out to you(by another poster) that the suggested idea has already happened to a lesser degree, you were pretty dismissive of the point. Like I said I'm not here to argue or to boost my ego. I'm here to help have discussions that can improve the class. > > No, this really isn't brainstorming. You have rejected several out of the box ideas. No this is not a radical change. Removing crit is in no way radical (incidently you can't have it both ways. If this is a radical idea then it would stand to reason they haven't really done this before. You, however, are arguing that this is part of a pattern they are engaged in which would mean its not radical if they are already doing it slowly. It cannot be both radical and something they are already engaged in. Pick one). That claims ignores some of the numerous discussions held on solving Necromancer's issues. You can claim I'm less flexible but I'm not. I've only rejected a failed idea. You've rejected several ideas and insisting on pushing a failed idea. It amuses me that you claim you are making a radical change when you construct a response that rejects actual radical changes to the profession on the grounds of "just be a different class entirely." You want radical so long as radical provides you with the elements you favor, which really isn't all that radical. Your entire discussion on Scourge is a rejection of out of the box ideas and a radical change. All in support in a narrow definition of Necromancer. > > As for arrogance, nawwww I like it. I'm fine with it. I see no real reason why I need to change for anyone online. I have also, on numerous occasions, made arguments about changes that could fix Necromancer. Not in this thread mind you but the fact that I don't do it here doesn't mean I haven't on several occasions discussed the matter. I haven't suggested anything in this thread because this thread argues from a flawed premise and so long as you hold onto that flawed premise I see no real benefit in other suggestions (which I know you'd reject anyway). And yeah, another poster backed you, that doesn't make you right. If we really want to walk down that road, that another poster pointed something out to me and I ignored it then I'd have to say there are more people who agreed with me on the issue than agreed with you. On those terms alone, the collective agreement in the thread is that you (and by extension him) are wrong. Your idea hasn't been tried. Have they removed crits in the past? Yes. However, not for the reasons that you have listed. I don't disagree that they have done so. That's plain to see. I just understand why they did so and as such see why what you suggest doesn't work. When they have removed crit damage in the past it has been for very specific goals and not this general "kitten" movement away from crits that you insist is going on (in stark contradiction to their own reasons for why these changes have occurred). I also don't happen to think there is more than one solution. I've seen numerous good suggestions and I've engaged in conversations in which such changes were discussed. Yours just doesn't fall into that category. > > I mean it’s obvious Why they removed crits on those abilities. They were blanket nerfing passive gameplay (specifically auto procs) and are trying to encourage active gameplay. I’m not sure what false premise your talking about, can you point out on particular the premise in question please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akrasia.5469 Posted December 29, 2018 Author Share Posted December 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > You have to understand that most people on th forum aren’t good theory crafters. > > > > The OP’s argument is perfectly valid. I’ve said this already and I won’t repeat it again. > > > > The changes to Onslaught and deaths Perception have both been a beneficial change to reaper in terms of build diversity, for the sole reason that they add stats that we no longer need (ferocity and precision) and has allowed it to be possibl to choose other stat sets as well as other traitlines outside of spite > > > > The reason people still chose spite in the last meta and Paladin amulet is so that they could do the most damage While having passive unmitigated damagein the form of vitality and toughness. It was the lazy attempt at forming a meta build that stuck to the former metas playstyle, to say the least. ( I mean come on,the meta had Chrono Manser ruins with Wells on a build that already provides quickness via on slot Onslaught lol) > > > > I’ve already stated why the OP’s change would be beneficial to build diversity but unhealthy for the state of the game . On top of that, the other traitlines aren’t very well made...so problems would still exist but that was not addressed by the OP and really wasn’t in the Conversation to begin with. > > Two abilities being better after a change does not mean additional changes along those same lines will work. This goes double when you are suggesting additional changes without taking into consideration why some of these changes are occurring. The OP completely ignores why Chill of Death, Chilling Nova, Spiteful Spirit, Weakening Shroud where changed in the first place and why those changes would likely be good changes in the long term in order to make a broad statement about what would benefit Necromancer. Simply removing the ability to crit without any consideration into why it's occurring doesn't lead to an actual good change for Necromancer. Since the OP ignored the why his analysis of how his changes could benefit Necromancer is flawed and rests on assumptions about what would happen next that you simply cannot make and assume would just happen. He consistently makes an argument about the nature of changes to Necromancer that simply are not true, such as ANet gradually pushing Necromancer away from crits when it stands in direct contradiction to the statements they've made on the matter. If you're going to debate me at least be accurate in your rebuttal. I never argued that ANet is "gradually pushing Necromancer away from crits". I argued that they are pushing necro away from dependence on precision and to the point that we don't need the stat in our builds anymore. I said if they are doing that then they shouldn't halfass it. I suggested instead of doing that with massive crit% traits they just do a rework of a majority of our skills and traits to not use crit. I clarified this and even mentioned my title was a little over the top. So please stop attacking via misquotes. > > @"Akrasia.5469" said: > > Yes Dace, this is brainstorming. It's one topic and I haven't rejected out of box ideas and in fact, this is a pretty radical change I brought up. I'm not defending the faults with the idea either. Now you are actually much less flexible than I am as your only train of thought is that shroud needs to go away. I say no to that as Shroud is a primary part of the class just as pets are to rangers and clones/illusions are to mesmers. If you change a thing so much that it doesn't resemble the original thing then it's not the same thing. It might as well not be called necromancer and just be a different class entirely. Scourge is ok for an ES but shouldn't be the base of all future updates to the class. Scourge play wise and thematically seem like a blend of Mesmer and Elementalist. It has very little resemblance to necro. While it's cool to have the option to do something different it's shortsighted and narrowminded to think there's only 1 solution to improve what's wrong. I never even suggested my idea was the only fix or even an entire fix. Maybe you should lose some of the arrogance and maybe you'll add more than just an argument. Nowhere in this thread did you ever really suggest anything. You just agreed with what other people said and used it as an excuse to push for the removal of shroud which wasn't even original itself. Even when it was pointed out to you(by another poster) that the suggested idea has already happened to a lesser degree, you were pretty dismissive of the point. Like I said I'm not here to argue or to boost my ego. I'm here to help have discussions that can improve the class. > > No, this really isn't brainstorming. You have rejected several out of the box ideas. No this is not a radical change. Removing crit is in no way radical (incidently you can't have it both ways. If this is a radical idea then it would stand to reason they haven't really done this before. You, however, are arguing that this is part of a pattern they are engaged in which would mean its not radical if they are already doing it slowly. It cannot be both radical and something they are already engaged in. Pick one). That claims ignores some of the numerous discussions held on solving Necromancer's issues. You can claim I'm less flexible but I'm not. I've only rejected a failed idea. You've rejected several ideas and insisting on pushing a failed idea. It amuses me that you claim you are making a radical change when you construct a response that rejects actual radical changes to the profession on the grounds of "just be a different class entirely." You want radical so long as radical provides you with the elements you favor, which really isn't all that radical. Your entire discussion on Scourge is a rejection of out of the box ideas and a radical change. All in support in a narrow definition of Necromancer. > > As for arrogance, nawwww I like it. I'm fine with it. I see no real reason why I need to change for anyone online. I have also, on numerous occasions, made arguments about changes that could fix Necromancer. Not in this thread mind you but the fact that I don't do it here doesn't mean I haven't on several occasions discussed the matter. I haven't suggested anything in this thread because this thread argues from a flawed premise and so long as you hold onto that flawed premise I see no real benefit in other suggestions (which I know you'd reject anyway). And yeah, another poster backed you, that doesn't make you right. If we really want to walk down that road, that another poster pointed something out to me and I ignored it then I'd have to say there are more people who agreed with me on the issue than agreed with you. On those terms alone, the collective agreement in the thread is that you (and by extension him) are wrong. Your idea hasn't been tried. Have they removed crits in the past? Yes. However, not for the reasons that you have listed. I don't disagree that they have done so. That's plain to see. I just understand why they did so and as such see why what you suggest doesn't work. When they have removed crit damage in the past it has been for very specific goals and not this general "kitten" movement away from crits that you insist is going on (in stark contradiction to their own reasons for why these changes have occurred). I also don't happen to think there is more than one solution. I've seen numerous good suggestions and I've engaged in conversations in which such changes were discussed. Yours just doesn't fall into that category. > Apparently, you like to argue for argument's sake and feeding trolls are bad for my blood pressure. I knew I should have quit several posts ago. You wrote 2 paragraphs and argued with me about what brainstorming is and stroked your own ego about how smart you think you are about GW2 and that you're important and blah blah blaaaaaa. To anyone reading this I hope you enjoyed the laugh. Dace good luck in life. I really mean it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curennos.9307 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 I feel like the issue here is that you're being extremely vague, to the point where it's nearly impossible to lock down what, exactly, you're proposing. It's not the job of other posters to think up the specifics of your suggestion for you - if you want to have a more productive conversation, it's on you to come up with a specific list of things you think need to be changed and how - especially since you say this is a 'rework', as opposed to some smaller change. I've done my best to read through the entire thread and aside from 1-2 mentions, I'm finding a massive lack of specific details on how, exactly, you're suggesting this rework to go down (Tehre were a couple specific trait mentions early on IIRC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akrasia.5469 Posted December 30, 2018 Author Share Posted December 30, 2018 > @"Curennos.9307" said: > I feel like the issue here is that you're being extremely vague, to the point where it's nearly impossible to lock down what, exactly, you're proposing. > > It's not the job of other posters to think up the specifics of your suggestion for you - if you want to have a more productive conversation, it's on you to come up with a specific list of things you think need to be changed and how - especially since you say this is a 'rework', as opposed to some smaller change. I've done my best to read through the entire thread and aside from 1-2 mentions, I'm finding a massive lack of specific details on how, exactly, you're suggesting this rework to go down (Tehre were a couple specific trait mentions early on IIRC). Fair enough. It might be a result of posting ideas on several threads. * My thought is that instead of traits with massive crit bonuses ANet ups base damage on several skills, mostly utility skills and auto proc trait skills, and makes those skills not have crits(weapon skills retain crit). In place of the crit traits, we can have traits that add mobility and sustain. * For example, get rid of Death Perception and add a sustain trait in its place. I had an idea (on another thread) for getting back into shroud quicker with charges and another poster on the thread suggested it just be a traited 10-15s cooldown reduction tied to heal. For the full idea see https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/783874#Comment_783874. * Decimate Defenses is the other high crit trait and it could be replaced with another CC trait for Reaper to deal with other class's mobility. Perhaps an autocast of a lesser Spectral Ring when entering shroud or the like, keeping enemies close. * I think Quickening Thirst in Blood Magic could be a master trait that just procs swiftness 33% for 10s every 10s while above 75%, so kinda perma swift. * I also had an idea to fix MM and add a boost to core necro by making MM an ES and removing most minion skills and traits from core. Then add a new utility skill set to core necro and new traits to Death Magic. I'm posting to the community because I'm not a full-time theory crafter and I'm sure there are things that can be improved upon in my idea. I haven't fully worked the numbers and am not afraid to admit that my idea is far from perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gocanny.6321 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 There is reaper who has tons of damage and almost no mobility, and there is daredevil who has tons of mobility and not enough damage. Anet needs to do some work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phs.6089 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"Gocanny.6321" said: > There is reaper who has tons of damage and almost no mobility, and there is daredevil who has tons of mobility and not enough damage. Anet needs to do some work tons of damage, good joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 > @"phs.6089" said: > > @"Gocanny.6321" said: > > There is reaper who has tons of damage and almost no mobility, and there is daredevil who has tons of mobility and not enough damage. Anet needs to do some work > > tons of damage, good joke. What he say about reaper isn't totaly wrong when you put yourself into the shoes of a daredevil facing a reaper. After all, the daredevil have to deal a lot more damage to the reaper to down him than the reaper have to down a daredevil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > You have to understand that most people on th forum aren’t good theory crafters. > > > > > > The OP’s argument is perfectly valid. I’ve said this already and I won’t repeat it again. > > > > > > The changes to Onslaught and deaths Perception have both been a beneficial change to reaper in terms of build diversity, for the sole reason that they add stats that we no longer need (ferocity and precision) and has allowed it to be possibl to choose other stat sets as well as other traitlines outside of spite > > > > > > The reason people still chose spite in the last meta and Paladin amulet is so that they could do the most damage While having passive unmitigated damagein the form of vitality and toughness. It was the lazy attempt at forming a meta build that stuck to the former metas playstyle, to say the least. ( I mean come on,the meta had Chrono Manser ruins with Wells on a build that already provides quickness via on slot Onslaught lol) > > > > > > I’ve already stated why the OP’s change would be beneficial to build diversity but unhealthy for the state of the game . On top of that, the other traitlines aren’t very well made...so problems would still exist but that was not addressed by the OP and really wasn’t in the Conversation to begin with. > > > > Two abilities being better after a change does not mean additional changes along those same lines will work. This goes double when you are suggesting additional changes without taking into consideration why some of these changes are occurring. The OP completely ignores why Chill of Death, Chilling Nova, Spiteful Spirit, Weakening Shroud where changed in the first place and why those changes would likely be good changes in the long term in order to make a broad statement about what would benefit Necromancer. Simply removing the ability to crit without any consideration into why it's occurring doesn't lead to an actual good change for Necromancer. Since the OP ignored the why his analysis of how his changes could benefit Necromancer is flawed and rests on assumptions about what would happen next that you simply cannot make and assume would just happen. He consistently makes an argument about the nature of changes to Necromancer that simply are not true, such as ANet gradually pushing Necromancer away from crits when it stands in direct contradiction to the statements they've made on the matter. > > > > > @"Akrasia.5469" said: > > > Yes Dace, this is brainstorming. It's one topic and I haven't rejected out of box ideas and in fact, this is a pretty radical change I brought up. I'm not defending the faults with the idea either. Now you are actually much less flexible than I am as your only train of thought is that shroud needs to go away. I say no to that as Shroud is a primary part of the class just as pets are to rangers and clones/illusions are to mesmers. If you change a thing so much that it doesn't resemble the original thing then it's not the same thing. It might as well not be called necromancer and just be a different class entirely. Scourge is ok for an ES but shouldn't be the base of all future updates to the class. Scourge play wise and thematically seem like a blend of Mesmer and Elementalist. It has very little resemblance to necro. While it's cool to have the option to do something different it's shortsighted and narrowminded to think there's only 1 solution to improve what's wrong. I never even suggested my idea was the only fix or even an entire fix. Maybe you should lose some of the arrogance and maybe you'll add more than just an argument. Nowhere in this thread did you ever really suggest anything. You just agreed with what other people said and used it as an excuse to push for the removal of shroud which wasn't even original itself. Even when it was pointed out to you(by another poster) that the suggested idea has already happened to a lesser degree, you were pretty dismissive of the point. Like I said I'm not here to argue or to boost my ego. I'm here to help have discussions that can improve the class. > > > > No, this really isn't brainstorming. You have rejected several out of the box ideas. No this is not a radical change. Removing crit is in no way radical (incidently you can't have it both ways. If this is a radical idea then it would stand to reason they haven't really done this before. You, however, are arguing that this is part of a pattern they are engaged in which would mean its not radical if they are already doing it slowly. It cannot be both radical and something they are already engaged in. Pick one). That claims ignores some of the numerous discussions held on solving Necromancer's issues. You can claim I'm less flexible but I'm not. I've only rejected a failed idea. You've rejected several ideas and insisting on pushing a failed idea. It amuses me that you claim you are making a radical change when you construct a response that rejects actual radical changes to the profession on the grounds of "just be a different class entirely." You want radical so long as radical provides you with the elements you favor, which really isn't all that radical. Your entire discussion on Scourge is a rejection of out of the box ideas and a radical change. All in support in a narrow definition of Necromancer. > > > > As for arrogance, nawwww I like it. I'm fine with it. I see no real reason why I need to change for anyone online. I have also, on numerous occasions, made arguments about changes that could fix Necromancer. Not in this thread mind you but the fact that I don't do it here doesn't mean I haven't on several occasions discussed the matter. I haven't suggested anything in this thread because this thread argues from a flawed premise and so long as you hold onto that flawed premise I see no real benefit in other suggestions (which I know you'd reject anyway). And yeah, another poster backed you, that doesn't make you right. If we really want to walk down that road, that another poster pointed something out to me and I ignored it then I'd have to say there are more people who agreed with me on the issue than agreed with you. On those terms alone, the collective agreement in the thread is that you (and by extension him) are wrong. Your idea hasn't been tried. Have they removed crits in the past? Yes. However, not for the reasons that you have listed. I don't disagree that they have done so. That's plain to see. I just understand why they did so and as such see why what you suggest doesn't work. When they have removed crit damage in the past it has been for very specific goals and not this general "kitten" movement away from crits that you insist is going on (in stark contradiction to their own reasons for why these changes have occurred). I also don't happen to think there is more than one solution. I've seen numerous good suggestions and I've engaged in conversations in which such changes were discussed. Yours just doesn't fall into that category. > > > > > > I mean it’s obvious Why they removed crits on those abilities. They were blanket nerfing passive gameplay (specifically auto procs) and are trying to encourage active gameplay. > > I’m not sure what false premise your talking about, can you point out on particular the premise in question please? His false premise that ANet was trying to move Necromancer into a specific direction of non-reliance when they have specifically stated they wanted to improve performance as it relates to how long it takes for some abilities to consistently kill. > @"Akrasia.5469" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > You have to understand that most people on th forum aren’t good theory crafters. > > > > > > The OP’s argument is perfectly valid. I’ve said this already and I won’t repeat it again. > > > > > > The changes to Onslaught and deaths Perception have both been a beneficial change to reaper in terms of build diversity, for the sole reason that they add stats that we no longer need (ferocity and precision) and has allowed it to be possibl to choose other stat sets as well as other traitlines outside of spite > > > > > > The reason people still chose spite in the last meta and Paladin amulet is so that they could do the most damage While having passive unmitigated damagein the form of vitality and toughness. It was the lazy attempt at forming a meta build that stuck to the former metas playstyle, to say the least. ( I mean come on,the meta had Chrono Manser ruins with Wells on a build that already provides quickness via on slot Onslaught lol) > > > > > > I’ve already stated why the OP’s change would be beneficial to build diversity but unhealthy for the state of the game . On top of that, the other traitlines aren’t very well made...so problems would still exist but that was not addressed by the OP and really wasn’t in the Conversation to begin with. > > > > Two abilities being better after a change does not mean additional changes along those same lines will work. This goes double when you are suggesting additional changes without taking into consideration why some of these changes are occurring. The OP completely ignores why Chill of Death, Chilling Nova, Spiteful Spirit, Weakening Shroud where changed in the first place and why those changes would likely be good changes in the long term in order to make a broad statement about what would benefit Necromancer. Simply removing the ability to crit without any consideration into why it's occurring doesn't lead to an actual good change for Necromancer. Since the OP ignored the why his analysis of how his changes could benefit Necromancer is flawed and rests on assumptions about what would happen next that you simply cannot make and assume would just happen. He consistently makes an argument about the nature of changes to Necromancer that simply are not true, such as ANet gradually pushing Necromancer away from crits when it stands in direct contradiction to the statements they've made on the matter. > > If you're going to debate me at least be accurate in your rebuttal. I never argued that ANet is "gradually pushing Necromancer away from crits". I argued that they are pushing necro away from dependence on precision and to the point that we don't need the stat in our builds anymore. I said if they are doing that then they shouldn't halfass it. I suggested instead of doing that with massive crit% traits they just do a rework of a majority of our skills and traits to not use crit. I clarified this and even mentioned my title was a little over the top. So please stop attacking via misquotes. > You are still wrong and you are still ignoring what ANet has said on the matter. You are also splitting hairs here as you are still suggesting the removal of crit damage in favor for something else. You have focused most of your remarks on crit damage. The vast majority of this discussion has revolved around crit damage. My rebuttal was in response to the removal of crit damage. It's not a misquote if the nature of this discussion has revolved around crit damage. They also aren't halfassing anything, again you are ignoring their stated design goal with these changes. > > > @"Akrasia.5469" said: > > > Yes Dace, this is brainstorming. It's one topic and I haven't rejected out of box ideas and in fact, this is a pretty radical change I brought up. I'm not defending the faults with the idea either. Now you are actually much less flexible than I am as your only train of thought is that shroud needs to go away. I say no to that as Shroud is a primary part of the class just as pets are to rangers and clones/illusions are to mesmers. If you change a thing so much that it doesn't resemble the original thing then it's not the same thing. It might as well not be called necromancer and just be a different class entirely. Scourge is ok for an ES but shouldn't be the base of all future updates to the class. Scourge play wise and thematically seem like a blend of Mesmer and Elementalist. It has very little resemblance to necro. While it's cool to have the option to do something different it's shortsighted and narrowminded to think there's only 1 solution to improve what's wrong. I never even suggested my idea was the only fix or even an entire fix. Maybe you should lose some of the arrogance and maybe you'll add more than just an argument. Nowhere in this thread did you ever really suggest anything. You just agreed with what other people said and used it as an excuse to push for the removal of shroud which wasn't even original itself. Even when it was pointed out to you(by another poster) that the suggested idea has already happened to a lesser degree, you were pretty dismissive of the point. Like I said I'm not here to argue or to boost my ego. I'm here to help have discussions that can improve the class. > > > > No, this really isn't brainstorming. You have rejected several out of the box ideas. No this is not a radical change. Removing crit is in no way radical (incidently you can't have it both ways. If this is a radical idea then it would stand to reason they haven't really done this before. You, however, are arguing that this is part of a pattern they are engaged in which would mean its not radical if they are already doing it slowly. It cannot be both radical and something they are already engaged in. Pick one). That claims ignores some of the numerous discussions held on solving Necromancer's issues. You can claim I'm less flexible but I'm not. I've only rejected a failed idea. You've rejected several ideas and insisting on pushing a failed idea. It amuses me that you claim you are making a radical change when you construct a response that rejects actual radical changes to the profession on the grounds of "just be a different class entirely." You want radical so long as radical provides you with the elements you favor, which really isn't all that radical. Your entire discussion on Scourge is a rejection of out of the box ideas and a radical change. All in support in a narrow definition of Necromancer. > > > > As for arrogance, nawwww I like it. I'm fine with it. I see no real reason why I need to change for anyone online. I have also, on numerous occasions, made arguments about changes that could fix Necromancer. Not in this thread mind you but the fact that I don't do it here doesn't mean I haven't on several occasions discussed the matter. I haven't suggested anything in this thread because this thread argues from a flawed premise and so long as you hold onto that flawed premise I see no real benefit in other suggestions (which I know you'd reject anyway). And yeah, another poster backed you, that doesn't make you right. If we really want to walk down that road, that another poster pointed something out to me and I ignored it then I'd have to say there are more people who agreed with me on the issue than agreed with you. On those terms alone, the collective agreement in the thread is that you (and by extension him) are wrong. Your idea hasn't been tried. Have they removed crits in the past? Yes. However, not for the reasons that you have listed. I don't disagree that they have done so. That's plain to see. I just understand why they did so and as such see why what you suggest doesn't work. When they have removed crit damage in the past it has been for very specific goals and not this general "kitten" movement away from crits that you insist is going on (in stark contradiction to their own reasons for why these changes have occurred). I also don't happen to think there is more than one solution. I've seen numerous good suggestions and I've engaged in conversations in which such changes were discussed. Yours just doesn't fall into that category. > > > Apparently, you like to argue for argument's sake and feeding trolls are bad for my blood pressure. I knew I should have quit several posts ago. You wrote 2 paragraphs and argued with me about what brainstorming is and stroked your own ego about how smart you think you are about GW2 and that you're important and blah blah blaaaaaa. To anyone reading this I hope you enjoyed the laugh. Dace good luck in life. I really mean it. > mmmmm I don't derive my sense of importance from a video game or video game forums. Nor did I argue that I was important. I also didn't make an argument about how smart I am. You seem to be projecting here. What I did argue is that I understand what they did and why. I'm not sure how that's an argument for importance being as how I simply read what ANet said they were doing and then observed what they changed in order to get to where they are trying to go. If being able to find, read, and understand patch notes makes a person important and smart then so be it, but that's all on you. You are also using trolling wrong (which is amusing since you're the one to engage in ad hom attacks). The act of disagreeing with you and telling you your idea isn't workable is not trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aplethoraof.2643 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Justine.6351" said: > I doubt they are going for "no precision required" on necro. All the free large % crit chance traits are moronic for every class. I hope not. I wouldn't trust them to replace Barbed Precision and Target the Weak. It'd be another Soul Reaping all over again, a massive stealth nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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