To Anet: When are you deleting thief?

[Ario.8964]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > DE itself ruined the thief class. It introduced a stupid gimmick that carries sub-par players by allowing them to camp stealth and then one shot players. It should never have been implemented into the game in the first place.

> >

> > DE aside, anet has clearly shown a lack of understanding in how the thief class functions and too often gives into complaints from the community that are ill-founded. Even just looking at s/d, it used to be an incredibly high skill build with many interesting mechanics and hidden tricks. You could jump cast with sword 2 to play more aggressively with the sacrifice of a safety port, you used to be able to pre- load LS for bursts at the cost of sacrificing an evade in combat if you got caught out. The set had lots of evades built in but it had very little sustain, and incredibly low condi removal so dodging everything was mandatory and showed off good thief play.

> >

> > Now 3 is unblockable spam, 2 has 0 depth to the skill, and the acrobatics line has been changed into a safety net for people who can't dodge things properly (instant reflexes). Not to mention senseless gutting of stealth skills by introducing a cd because people couldn't block once and get a free kill on a thief, d/p 5 getting a larger interval of blind pulses because people couldn't kill a thief by standing still and AAing it, reveal going to 4 seconds in pvp because players couldn't do something as simple as ccing the thief within 3 seconds. The list goes on but the point I'm making is: anet doesn't understand thief, and made poor decisions with handling it's balance due to bad players complaining about it because it wasn't a free win. Thief is now either a gimmick from DE or a shadow of a it's formerly interesting self.

> >

> > But hey, at least we can run away and go decap...

>

> For one a good DE build doesn't have true perma stealth else. 2. If you are getting one shotted... That's really your own problem if you cant dodge a dot on your head with a sound and a giant laser beam pointed at you which is now blockable. Then really you just didn't learn game mechanics.

>

> Carry players lol. Carry them to silver? Cos u really don't see many DEs around

 

The reason it isn't seen is because it sacrifices the heavy mobility and boonstrip that is the only reason thief is still taken for teams. Doesn't mean that in an open combat field with no point ticks putting pressure on the player they can't pull off ez kills occasionally. Just because it isn't 100% successful all the time doesn't mean it doesn't have aspects that carry players. For example, dodge giving stealth carries players who either don't know how to stealth with combo fields or don't position themselves correctly to stealth without giving away their position. DJ carries players who can't set up a backstab or burst combo effectively by letting them get higher damage than backstab with no position requirements while they can maintain safety from range. Mark allows the thief to buff their damage even if the other player dodges the original mark hit so they never have to lose out on potential damage.

 

I don't have issues fighting them because as someone who plays thief and engineer, I counter them. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that mechanics present on the DE are not healthy and do not promote skillfull gameplay.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > DE itself ruined the thief class. It introduced a stupid gimmick that carries sub-par players by allowing them to camp stealth and then one shot players. It should never have been implemented into the game in the first place.

> > >

> > > DE aside, anet has clearly shown a lack of understanding in how the thief class functions and too often gives into complaints from the community that are ill-founded. Even just looking at s/d, it used to be an incredibly high skill build with many interesting mechanics and hidden tricks. You could jump cast with sword 2 to play more aggressively with the sacrifice of a safety port, you used to be able to pre- load LS for bursts at the cost of sacrificing an evade in combat if you got caught out. The set had lots of evades built in but it had very little sustain, and incredibly low condi removal so dodging everything was mandatory and showed off good thief play.

> > >

> > > Now 3 is unblockable spam, 2 has 0 depth to the skill, and the acrobatics line has been changed into a safety net for people who can't dodge things properly (instant reflexes). Not to mention senseless gutting of stealth skills by introducing a cd because people couldn't block once and get a free kill on a thief, d/p 5 getting a larger interval of blind pulses because people couldn't kill a thief by standing still and AAing it, reveal going to 4 seconds in pvp because players couldn't do something as simple as ccing the thief within 3 seconds. The list goes on but the point I'm making is: anet doesn't understand thief, and made poor decisions with handling it's balance due to bad players complaining about it because it wasn't a free win. Thief is now either a gimmick from DE or a shadow of a it's formerly interesting self.

> > >

> > > But hey, at least we can run away and go decap...

> >

> > For one a good DE build doesn't have true perma stealth else. 2. If you are getting one shotted... That's really your own problem if you cant dodge a dot on your head with a sound and a giant laser beam pointed at you which is now blockable. Then really you just didn't learn game mechanics.

> >

> > Carry players lol. Carry them to silver? Cos u really don't see many DEs around

>

> The reason it isn't seen is because it sacrifices the heavy mobility and boonstrip that is the only reason thief is still taken for teams. Doesn't mean that in an open combat field with no point ticks putting pressure on the player they can't pull off ez kills occasionally. Just because it isn't 100% successful all the time doesn't mean it doesn't have aspects that carry players. For example, dodge giving stealth carries players who either don't know how to stealth with combo fields or don't position themselves correctly to stealth without giving away their position. DJ carries players who can't set up a backstab or burst combo effectively by letting them get higher damage than backstab with no position requirements while they can maintain safety from range. Mark allows the thief to buff their damage even if the other player dodges the original mark hit so they never have to lose out on potential damage.

>

> I don't have issues fighting them because as someone who plays thief and engineer, I counter them. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that mechanics present on the DE are not healthy and do not promote skillfull gameplay.

 

if a build does 'carry', then it as much restricts the performance of an actual good player. because if he despite all his experience wont get better results than a noob, that wont really feel satisfying.

while there is a huge difference between a good and a bad deadeye, a complete noob will be better on a deadeye than on another thief build (and if it is just because range + good dmg). but i do think it is risky to give deadeye a better skill scaling. before rework a terribly bad player could still win most of their encounters in WvW, he just needed to know how to permastealth and then press DJ when malice hits m7, because of the timing you could actually put assassins signet on autocast (i actually knew someone doing that). an that is more than enough to kill the average player therefor win most of their encounters. after the rework deadeye needs to engage infight to build the malice so regardless of how it is now, it is riskier than before the rework and the difference between a good and a bad deadeye is now much greater. but the problem is to force this risk, we also were given tools to deal with it and now the deadeye is overall stronger. if they further want to improve skill scaling, they might reduce the security even more, with worse stealth access. but we then most probably would get more options to pressure our opponents (dmg, boonrip/corrupst, unblockable, CC). a good deadeye would then use a safety utility to get away if needed and in between just abuse the now better pressure.

while i would love that more of my opponents actually could see my experience (many just assume every deadeye to be a bad player, because they die to bad deadeyes aswell), i dont think it would be good to add more skill scaling to DE - i just dont think its worth the risk of buffing them.

[Ario.8964]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > DE itself ruined the thief class. It introduced a stupid gimmick that carries sub-par players by allowing them to camp stealth and then one shot players. It should never have been implemented into the game in the first place.

> > > >

> > > > DE aside, anet has clearly shown a lack of understanding in how the thief class functions and too often gives into complaints from the community that are ill-founded. Even just looking at s/d, it used to be an incredibly high skill build with many interesting mechanics and hidden tricks. You could jump cast with sword 2 to play more aggressively with the sacrifice of a safety port, you used to be able to pre- load LS for bursts at the cost of sacrificing an evade in combat if you got caught out. The set had lots of evades built in but it had very little sustain, and incredibly low condi removal so dodging everything was mandatory and showed off good thief play.

> > > >

> > > > Now 3 is unblockable spam, 2 has 0 depth to the skill, and the acrobatics line has been changed into a safety net for people who can't dodge things properly (instant reflexes). Not to mention senseless gutting of stealth skills by introducing a cd because people couldn't block once and get a free kill on a thief, d/p 5 getting a larger interval of blind pulses because people couldn't kill a thief by standing still and AAing it, reveal going to 4 seconds in pvp because players couldn't do something as simple as ccing the thief within 3 seconds. The list goes on but the point I'm making is: anet doesn't understand thief, and made poor decisions with handling it's balance due to bad players complaining about it because it wasn't a free win. Thief is now either a gimmick from DE or a shadow of a it's formerly interesting self.

> > > >

> > > > But hey, at least we can run away and go decap...

> > >

> > > For one a good DE build doesn't have true perma stealth else. 2. If you are getting one shotted... That's really your own problem if you cant dodge a dot on your head with a sound and a giant laser beam pointed at you which is now blockable. Then really you just didn't learn game mechanics.

> > >

> > > Carry players lol. Carry them to silver? Cos u really don't see many DEs around

> >

> > The reason it isn't seen is because it sacrifices the heavy mobility and boonstrip that is the only reason thief is still taken for teams. Doesn't mean that in an open combat field with no point ticks putting pressure on the player they can't pull off ez kills occasionally. Just because it isn't 100% successful all the time doesn't mean it doesn't have aspects that carry players. For example, dodge giving stealth carries players who either don't know how to stealth with combo fields or don't position themselves correctly to stealth without giving away their position. DJ carries players who can't set up a backstab or burst combo effectively by letting them get higher damage than backstab with no position requirements while they can maintain safety from range. Mark allows the thief to buff their damage even if the other player dodges the original mark hit so they never have to lose out on potential damage.

> >

> > I don't have issues fighting them because as someone who plays thief and engineer, I counter them. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that mechanics present on the DE are not healthy and do not promote skillfull gameplay.

>

> if a build does 'carry', then it as much restricts the performance of an actual good player. because if he despite all his experience wont get better results than a noob, that wont really feel satisfying.

> while there is a huge difference between a good and a bad deadeye, a complete noob will be better on a deadeye than on another thief build (and if it is just because range + good dmg). but i do think it is risky to give deadeye a better skill scaling. before rework a terribly bad player could still win most of their encounters in WvW, he just needed to know how to permastealth and then press DJ when malice hits m7, because of the timing you could actually put assassins signet on autocast (i actually knew someone doing that). an that is more than enough to kill the average player therefor win most of their encounters. after the rework deadeye needs to engage infight to build the malice so regardless of how it is now, it is riskier than before the rework and the difference between a good and a bad deadeye is now much greater. but the problem is to force this risk, we also were given tools to deal with it and now the deadeye is overall stronger. if they further want to improve skill scaling, they might reduce the security even more, with worse stealth access. but we then most probably would get more options to pressure our opponents (dmg, boonrip/corrupst, unblockable, CC). a good deadeye would then use a safety utility to get away if needed and in between just abuse the now better pressure.

> while i would love that more of my opponents actually could see my experience (many just assume every deadeye to be a bad player, because they die to bad deadeyes aswell), i dont think it would be good to add more skill scaling to DE - i just dont think its worth the risk of buffing them.

 

The first step is to remove the mechanics that are actually carrying the bad players. DE wouldn't be a bad thing to buff if it didn't have the mechanical carries that it did now. Removing stealth on dodge first and foremost would hit their survivability/safety incredibly hard which would cause unskilled DE's to die a ton more while the better players who can utilize positioning and kiting well would be fine. After that, if mark had to actually hit in order to stack malice then DE wouldn't have any gimmicks to fall back on and despite DJ having high damage, it wouldn't be a problem except for some lucky shots (but that will always happen). Then you leave room to buff their skills to functional levels and open up new ways for DE to utilize positioning so better players will survive and have plenty of success with it, while removing the gimmick aspect that is currently DE. Damage doesn't need to be changed really at all if the other listed parts are changed so it's not like you are giving a different 1 shot to the prof.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > DE itself ruined the thief class. It introduced a stupid gimmick that carries sub-par players by allowing them to camp stealth and then one shot players. It should never have been implemented into the game in the first place.

> > >

> > > DE aside, anet has clearly shown a lack of understanding in how the thief class functions and too often gives into complaints from the community that are ill-founded. Even just looking at s/d, it used to be an incredibly high skill build with many interesting mechanics and hidden tricks. You could jump cast with sword 2 to play more aggressively with the sacrifice of a safety port, you used to be able to pre- load LS for bursts at the cost of sacrificing an evade in combat if you got caught out. The set had lots of evades built in but it had very little sustain, and incredibly low condi removal so dodging everything was mandatory and showed off good thief play.

> > >

> > > Now 3 is unblockable spam, 2 has 0 depth to the skill, and the acrobatics line has been changed into a safety net for people who can't dodge things properly (instant reflexes). Not to mention senseless gutting of stealth skills by introducing a cd because people couldn't block once and get a free kill on a thief, d/p 5 getting a larger interval of blind pulses because people couldn't kill a thief by standing still and AAing it, reveal going to 4 seconds in pvp because players couldn't do something as simple as ccing the thief within 3 seconds. The list goes on but the point I'm making is: anet doesn't understand thief, and made poor decisions with handling it's balance due to bad players complaining about it because it wasn't a free win. Thief is now either a gimmick from DE or a shadow of a it's formerly interesting self.

> > >

> > > But hey, at least we can run away and go decap...

> >

> > For one a good DE build doesn't have true perma stealth else. 2. If you are getting one shotted... That's really your own problem if you cant dodge a dot on your head with a sound and a giant laser beam pointed at you which is now blockable. Then really you just didn't learn game mechanics.

> >

> > Carry players lol. Carry them to silver? Cos u really don't see many DEs around

>

> The reason it isn't seen is because it sacrifices the heavy mobility and boonstrip that is the only reason thief is still taken for teams. Doesn't mean that in an open combat field with no point ticks putting pressure on the player they can't pull off ez kills occasionally. Just because it isn't 100% successful all the time doesn't mean it doesn't have aspects that carry players. For example, dodge giving stealth carries players who either don't know how to stealth with combo fields or don't position themselves correctly to stealth without giving away their position. DJ carries players who can't set up a backstab or burst combo effectively by letting them get higher damage than backstab with no position requirements while they can maintain safety from range. Mark allows the thief to buff their damage even if the other player dodges the original mark hit so they never have to lose out on potential damage.

>

> I don't have issues fighting them because as someone who plays thief and engineer, I counter them. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that mechanics present on the DE are not healthy and do not promote skillfull gameplay.

 

You make it sound as though stealth instantly makes DE god like. When in reality it doesn't really over power any thing very quickly unlike other classes..

 

The issues u list are really not issues in my opinion. It's really not hard to stealth press 1 and steal to backstab. If u fail as DD you can simply dash away. As de u have nothing.

 

The stealth on dodge isn't a instant DE is safe mechanic. Good players know a deadeye has very low mobility. If it gets caught in melee. All u need to do is Aoe. N due to the deadeye having very little evades or blocks it would kill him. As Holo all u need to do is skill 5. Rev 2 or 4 etc. If the DE used his dodge for stealth it means he had no dodges.

 

Rangers pew pew is ok because actually has skills as well as boons that allow it to take the hit, block or evade once melee is in place. DE doesn't have any of that. If they gave that to the DE I am all in favor of it tbh.

 

And like I said DJ can't carry anything because u see it a mile away. With a dot a massive sound and a laser beam and it is now blockable.

 

Mark giving default dmg isn't really a problem since like I said other class gain dmg boost by default like the soul beast.

 

This comparison is really apples and oranges. If it's really true DE can carry you would really see it every where. And maybe at one point before Oct Nerf it could have been. But really if u don't barely ever see a class then it doesn't carry. Your statement doesn't make sense. It "carries" but blabla so no one plays it... So then it doesn't carry... Cos no 1 plays it.

 

[TorQ.7041]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > DE itself ruined the thief class. It introduced a stupid gimmick that carries sub-par players by allowing them to camp stealth and then one shot players. It should never have been implemented into the game in the first place.

> > > >

> > > > DE aside, anet has clearly shown a lack of understanding in how the thief class functions and too often gives into complaints from the community that are ill-founded. Even just looking at s/d, it used to be an incredibly high skill build with many interesting mechanics and hidden tricks. You could jump cast with sword 2 to play more aggressively with the sacrifice of a safety port, you used to be able to pre- load LS for bursts at the cost of sacrificing an evade in combat if you got caught out. The set had lots of evades built in but it had very little sustain, and incredibly low condi removal so dodging everything was mandatory and showed off good thief play.

> > > >

> > > > Now 3 is unblockable spam, 2 has 0 depth to the skill, and the acrobatics line has been changed into a safety net for people who can't dodge things properly (instant reflexes). Not to mention senseless gutting of stealth skills by introducing a cd because people couldn't block once and get a free kill on a thief, d/p 5 getting a larger interval of blind pulses because people couldn't kill a thief by standing still and AAing it, reveal going to 4 seconds in pvp because players couldn't do something as simple as ccing the thief within 3 seconds. The list goes on but the point I'm making is: anet doesn't understand thief, and made poor decisions with handling it's balance due to bad players complaining about it because it wasn't a free win. Thief is now either a gimmick from DE or a shadow of a it's formerly interesting self.

> > > >

> > > > But hey, at least we can run away and go decap...

> > >

> > > For one a good DE build doesn't have true perma stealth else. 2. If you are getting one shotted... That's really your own problem if you cant dodge a dot on your head with a sound and a giant laser beam pointed at you which is now blockable. Then really you just didn't learn game mechanics.

> > >

> > > Carry players lol. Carry them to silver? Cos u really don't see many DEs around

> >

> > The reason it isn't seen is because it sacrifices the heavy mobility and boonstrip that is the only reason thief is still taken for teams. Doesn't mean that in an open combat field with no point ticks putting pressure on the player they can't pull off ez kills occasionally. Just because it isn't 100% successful all the time doesn't mean it doesn't have aspects that carry players. For example, dodge giving stealth carries players who either don't know how to stealth with combo fields or don't position themselves correctly to stealth without giving away their position. DJ carries players who can't set up a backstab or burst combo effectively by letting them get higher damage than backstab with no position requirements while they can maintain safety from range. Mark allows the thief to buff their damage even if the other player dodges the original mark hit so they never have to lose out on potential damage.

> >

> > I don't have issues fighting them because as someone who plays thief and engineer, I counter them. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that mechanics present on the DE are not healthy and do not promote skillfull gameplay.

>

> if a build does 'carry', then it as much restricts the performance of an actual good player. because if he despite all his experience wont get better results than a noob, that wont really feel satisfying.

> while there is a huge difference between a good and a bad deadeye, a complete noob will be better on a deadeye than on another thief build (and if it is just because range + good dmg). but i do think it is risky to give deadeye a better skill scaling. before rework a terribly bad player could still win most of their encounters in WvW, he just needed to know how to permastealth and then press DJ when malice hits m7, because of the timing you could actually put assassins signet on autocast (i actually knew someone doing that). an that is more than enough to kill the average player therefor win most of their encounters. after the rework deadeye needs to engage infight to build the malice so regardless of how it is now, it is riskier than before the rework and the difference between a good and a bad deadeye is now much greater. but the problem is to force this risk, we also were given tools to deal with it and now the deadeye is overall stronger. if they further want to improve skill scaling, they might reduce the security even more, with worse stealth access. but we then most probably would get more options to pressure our opponents (dmg, boonrip/corrupst, unblockable, CC). a good deadeye would then use a safety utility to get away if needed and in between just abuse the now better pressure.

> while i would love that more of my opponents actually could see my experience (many just assume every deadeye to be a bad player, because they die to bad deadeyes aswell), i dont think it would be good to add more skill scaling to DE - i just dont think its worth the risk of buffing them.

 

A complete noob would be better off paying, mirage, Holo, soul beast, core guard or necro.

 

The meta builds are very self explanatory and far easier to play than try not to be caught with very low mobility or defense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > DE itself ruined the thief class. It introduced a stupid gimmick that carries sub-par players by allowing them to camp stealth and then one shot players. It should never have been implemented into the game in the first place.

> > > > >

> > > > > DE aside, anet has clearly shown a lack of understanding in how the thief class functions and too often gives into complaints from the community that are ill-founded. Even just looking at s/d, it used to be an incredibly high skill build with many interesting mechanics and hidden tricks. You could jump cast with sword 2 to play more aggressively with the sacrifice of a safety port, you used to be able to pre- load LS for bursts at the cost of sacrificing an evade in combat if you got caught out. The set had lots of evades built in but it had very little sustain, and incredibly low condi removal so dodging everything was mandatory and showed off good thief play.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now 3 is unblockable spam, 2 has 0 depth to the skill, and the acrobatics line has been changed into a safety net for people who can't dodge things properly (instant reflexes). Not to mention senseless gutting of stealth skills by introducing a cd because people couldn't block once and get a free kill on a thief, d/p 5 getting a larger interval of blind pulses because people couldn't kill a thief by standing still and AAing it, reveal going to 4 seconds in pvp because players couldn't do something as simple as ccing the thief within 3 seconds. The list goes on but the point I'm making is: anet doesn't understand thief, and made poor decisions with handling it's balance due to bad players complaining about it because it wasn't a free win. Thief is now either a gimmick from DE or a shadow of a it's formerly interesting self.

> > > > >

> > > > > But hey, at least we can run away and go decap...

> > > >

> > > > For one a good DE build doesn't have true perma stealth else. 2. If you are getting one shotted... That's really your own problem if you cant dodge a dot on your head with a sound and a giant laser beam pointed at you which is now blockable. Then really you just didn't learn game mechanics.

> > > >

> > > > Carry players lol. Carry them to silver? Cos u really don't see many DEs around

> > >

> > > The reason it isn't seen is because it sacrifices the heavy mobility and boonstrip that is the only reason thief is still taken for teams. Doesn't mean that in an open combat field with no point ticks putting pressure on the player they can't pull off ez kills occasionally. Just because it isn't 100% successful all the time doesn't mean it doesn't have aspects that carry players. For example, dodge giving stealth carries players who either don't know how to stealth with combo fields or don't position themselves correctly to stealth without giving away their position. DJ carries players who can't set up a backstab or burst combo effectively by letting them get higher damage than backstab with no position requirements while they can maintain safety from range. Mark allows the thief to buff their damage even if the other player dodges the original mark hit so they never have to lose out on potential damage.

> > >

> > > I don't have issues fighting them because as someone who plays thief and engineer, I counter them. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that mechanics present on the DE are not healthy and do not promote skillfull gameplay.

> >

> > if a build does 'carry', then it as much restricts the performance of an actual good player. because if he despite all his experience wont get better results than a noob, that wont really feel satisfying.

> > while there is a huge difference between a good and a bad deadeye, a complete noob will be better on a deadeye than on another thief build (and if it is just because range + good dmg). but i do think it is risky to give deadeye a better skill scaling. before rework a terribly bad player could still win most of their encounters in WvW, he just needed to know how to permastealth and then press DJ when malice hits m7, because of the timing you could actually put assassins signet on autocast (i actually knew someone doing that). an that is more than enough to kill the average player therefor win most of their encounters. after the rework deadeye needs to engage infight to build the malice so regardless of how it is now, it is riskier than before the rework and the difference between a good and a bad deadeye is now much greater. but the problem is to force this risk, we also were given tools to deal with it and now the deadeye is overall stronger. if they further want to improve skill scaling, they might reduce the security even more, with worse stealth access. but we then most probably would get more options to pressure our opponents (dmg, boonrip/corrupst, unblockable, CC). a good deadeye would then use a safety utility to get away if needed and in between just abuse the now better pressure.

> > while i would love that more of my opponents actually could see my experience (many just assume every deadeye to be a bad player, because they die to bad deadeyes aswell), i dont think it would be good to add more skill scaling to DE - i just dont think its worth the risk of buffing them.

>

> A complete noob would be better off paying, mirage, Holo, soul beast, core guard or necro.

>

> The meta builds are very self explanatory and far easier to play than try not to be caught with very low mobility or defense.

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

maybe, yet i only compared it to other thief builds wich have a harder time applying their damage. a noob wont survive long on either but in a noob vs noob they might kill their target before they die.

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > > DE itself ruined the thief class. It introduced a stupid gimmick that carries sub-par players by allowing them to camp stealth and then one shot players. It should never have been implemented into the game in the first place.

> > > > >

> > > > > DE aside, anet has clearly shown a lack of understanding in how the thief class functions and too often gives into complaints from the community that are ill-founded. Even just looking at s/d, it used to be an incredibly high skill build with many interesting mechanics and hidden tricks. You could jump cast with sword 2 to play more aggressively with the sacrifice of a safety port, you used to be able to pre- load LS for bursts at the cost of sacrificing an evade in combat if you got caught out. The set had lots of evades built in but it had very little sustain, and incredibly low condi removal so dodging everything was mandatory and showed off good thief play.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now 3 is unblockable spam, 2 has 0 depth to the skill, and the acrobatics line has been changed into a safety net for people who can't dodge things properly (instant reflexes). Not to mention senseless gutting of stealth skills by introducing a cd because people couldn't block once and get a free kill on a thief, d/p 5 getting a larger interval of blind pulses because people couldn't kill a thief by standing still and AAing it, reveal going to 4 seconds in pvp because players couldn't do something as simple as ccing the thief within 3 seconds. The list goes on but the point I'm making is: anet doesn't understand thief, and made poor decisions with handling it's balance due to bad players complaining about it because it wasn't a free win. Thief is now either a gimmick from DE or a shadow of a it's formerly interesting self.

> > > > >

> > > > > But hey, at least we can run away and go decap...

> > > >

> > > > For one a good DE build doesn't have true perma stealth else. 2. If you are getting one shotted... That's really your own problem if you cant dodge a dot on your head with a sound and a giant laser beam pointed at you which is now blockable. Then really you just didn't learn game mechanics.

> > > >

> > > > Carry players lol. Carry them to silver? Cos u really don't see many DEs around

> > >

> > > The reason it isn't seen is because it sacrifices the heavy mobility and boonstrip that is the only reason thief is still taken for teams. Doesn't mean that in an open combat field with no point ticks putting pressure on the player they can't pull off ez kills occasionally. Just because it isn't 100% successful all the time doesn't mean it doesn't have aspects that carry players. For example, dodge giving stealth carries players who either don't know how to stealth with combo fields or don't position themselves correctly to stealth without giving away their position. DJ carries players who can't set up a backstab or burst combo effectively by letting them get higher damage than backstab with no position requirements while they can maintain safety from range. Mark allows the thief to buff their damage even if the other player dodges the original mark hit so they never have to lose out on potential damage.

> > >

> > > I don't have issues fighting them because as someone who plays thief and engineer, I counter them. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that mechanics present on the DE are not healthy and do not promote skillfull gameplay.

> >

> > if a build does 'carry', then it as much restricts the performance of an actual good player. because if he despite all his experience wont get better results than a noob, that wont really feel satisfying.

> > while there is a huge difference between a good and a bad deadeye, a complete noob will be better on a deadeye than on another thief build (and if it is just because range + good dmg). but i do think it is risky to give deadeye a better skill scaling. before rework a terribly bad player could still win most of their encounters in WvW, he just needed to know how to permastealth and then press DJ when malice hits m7, because of the timing you could actually put assassins signet on autocast (i actually knew someone doing that). an that is more than enough to kill the average player therefor win most of their encounters. after the rework deadeye needs to engage infight to build the malice so regardless of how it is now, it is riskier than before the rework and the difference between a good and a bad deadeye is now much greater. but the problem is to force this risk, we also were given tools to deal with it and now the deadeye is overall stronger. if they further want to improve skill scaling, they might reduce the security even more, with worse stealth access. but we then most probably would get more options to pressure our opponents (dmg, boonrip/corrupst, unblockable, CC). a good deadeye would then use a safety utility to get away if needed and in between just abuse the now better pressure.

> > while i would love that more of my opponents actually could see my experience (many just assume every deadeye to be a bad player, because they die to bad deadeyes aswell), i dont think it would be good to add more skill scaling to DE - i just dont think its worth the risk of buffing them.

>

> The first step is to remove the mechanics that are actually carrying the bad players. DE wouldn't be a bad thing to buff if it didn't have the mechanical carries that it did now. Removing stealth on dodge first and foremost would hit their survivability/safety incredibly hard which would cause unskilled DE's to die a ton more while **the better players who can utilize positioning and kiting well would be fine**. After that, if mark had to actually hit in order to stack malice then DE wouldn't have any gimmicks to fall back on and despite DJ having high damage, it wouldn't be a problem except for some lucky shots (but that will always happen). **Then you leave room to buff their skills to functional levels and open up new ways for DE to utilize positioning so better players will survive and have plenty of success with it, while removing the gimmick aspect that is currently DE**. Damage doesn't need to be changed really at all if the other listed parts are changed so it's not like you are giving a different 1 shot to the prof.

 

as said: you would overall buff good deadeyes, mobility is a much stronger defense than stealth. stealth only has an advantage in 1 vs X against much worse players.

[syszery.1592]

I always wonder who actually complains about deadeye. Mirages, Firebrands and (most of all classes) rangers should favor DE over S/D (and even d/p I'd say). And for Holo or Weavers deadeye is also a winnable matchup. In particular the constant reveal from Engineers is quite dangerous for DE. For Necros and Revs it actually hardly makes a difference because they have a tough matchup against any thief build.. As Warrior it really depends on how well the thief plays his cards, i.e. how well he kites and denies your burst skills. And against other thieves all builds boil down to _land your important skills before the other thief does_.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"syszery.1592" said:

> I always wonder who actually complains about deadeye. Mirages, Firebrands and (most of all classes) rangers should favor DE over S/D (and even d/p I'd say). And for Holo or Weavers deadeye is also a winnable matchup. In particular the constant reveal from Engineers is quite dangerous for DE. For Necros and Revs it actually hardly makes a difference because they have a tough matchup against any thief build.. As Warrior it really depends on how well the thief plays his cards, i.e. how well he kites and denies your burst skills. And against other thieves all builds boil down to _land your important skills before the other thief does_.

 

many of the ones that do complain would even say that they win more against them, then they lose. yet what many do not like about deadeye is , that in order for the deadeye to actually die, they have to make a mistake. (it used to be like that with any thief build but these days thief mainly has a sustained speed advantage while many can keep up with the burst speed to take them down if they want to get away for a second)

if neither does a mistake mechanically during the fight, then time will favor the deadeye, because all resources reset after a while yet the potency of the stealth attacks remains on a high malice level till they hit, wich depending on builds can be fatal. because of that, the fight is from that point on where the deadeye reaches maximum malice only about hitting/avoiding that one hit. there is no reason for the deadeye to use low dmg skills and risking counter pressure. thats why i would like malice to reset 10s after reaching maximum to break that boring stealth attack spamm cycle that one can get into and make the fight more interesting for both sides. i also wouldnt be opposed to triggering renewing gaze if the target gets 3k or 3,5k range away, so you actually see when you got away from a stealthed deadeye. but thats both more QoL than balance changes i want.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Thief by its nature is anoying to fight against because it’s design which fits the thief architecture. Thief is fast,hard hitting and can’t take a hit,which makes sense for such a class. People that don’t like thief complain about its burst and ability to reset totally disregarding its weaknesses which can be exploited if people’s learned how to instead of getting upset that they just got ganked. People say ther was no counter play which is not true at all. Deadey has taken this even further with how it’s mechanic works,really annoys people haha so people cry nurfs and arenet not knowing or having much experience actually playing thief tries to balance it. Problem now is lowering their burst to stop people from saying their damage is op has left them with low hp/sustain with mediocre damage, than resetting was annoying so they hand out mobility to other classes and give unhindered combatant endurance death if Condy is cleansed so now thief doesn’t hit that hard,isn’t much more mobile than a lot of professions and has the least amount of sustain/hp. Non thief players should try and play thief themselves against people that are proficient in the very classes they play themselves and see how op they really arnt. If u took away all the blocks,invulnerability and lowered say guards or w/e damage and set the hp/armor down to thief level and gave that clas bit better mobility to basically make it a thief how good u think guard or warrior be,not good but because non thief players hate how the class does it’s damage they want it gutted

[Ario.8964]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > DE itself ruined the thief class. It introduced a stupid gimmick that carries sub-par players by allowing them to camp stealth and then one shot players. It should never have been implemented into the game in the first place.

> > > >

> > > > DE aside, anet has clearly shown a lack of understanding in how the thief class functions and too often gives into complaints from the community that are ill-founded. Even just looking at s/d, it used to be an incredibly high skill build with many interesting mechanics and hidden tricks. You could jump cast with sword 2 to play more aggressively with the sacrifice of a safety port, you used to be able to pre- load LS for bursts at the cost of sacrificing an evade in combat if you got caught out. The set had lots of evades built in but it had very little sustain, and incredibly low condi removal so dodging everything was mandatory and showed off good thief play.

> > > >

> > > > Now 3 is unblockable spam, 2 has 0 depth to the skill, and the acrobatics line has been changed into a safety net for people who can't dodge things properly (instant reflexes). Not to mention senseless gutting of stealth skills by introducing a cd because people couldn't block once and get a free kill on a thief, d/p 5 getting a larger interval of blind pulses because people couldn't kill a thief by standing still and AAing it, reveal going to 4 seconds in pvp because players couldn't do something as simple as ccing the thief within 3 seconds. The list goes on but the point I'm making is: anet doesn't understand thief, and made poor decisions with handling it's balance due to bad players complaining about it because it wasn't a free win. Thief is now either a gimmick from DE or a shadow of a it's formerly interesting self.

> > > >

> > > > But hey, at least we can run away and go decap...

> > >

> > > For one a good DE build doesn't have true perma stealth else. 2. If you are getting one shotted... That's really your own problem if you cant dodge a dot on your head with a sound and a giant laser beam pointed at you which is now blockable. Then really you just didn't learn game mechanics.

> > >

> > > Carry players lol. Carry them to silver? Cos u really don't see many DEs around

> >

> > The reason it isn't seen is because it sacrifices the heavy mobility and boonstrip that is the only reason thief is still taken for teams. Doesn't mean that in an open combat field with no point ticks putting pressure on the player they can't pull off ez kills occasionally. Just because it isn't 100% successful all the time doesn't mean it doesn't have aspects that carry players. For example, dodge giving stealth carries players who either don't know how to stealth with combo fields or don't position themselves correctly to stealth without giving away their position. DJ carries players who can't set up a backstab or burst combo effectively by letting them get higher damage than backstab with no position requirements while they can maintain safety from range. Mark allows the thief to buff their damage even if the other player dodges the original mark hit so they never have to lose out on potential damage.

> >

> > I don't have issues fighting them because as someone who plays thief and engineer, I counter them. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that mechanics present on the DE are not healthy and do not promote skillfull gameplay.

>

> You make it sound as though stealth instantly makes DE god like. When in reality it doesn't really over power any thing very quickly unlike other classes..

>

> The issues u list are really not issues in my opinion. It's really not hard to stealth press 1 and steal to backstab. If u fail as DD you can simply dash away. As de u have nothing.

>

> The stealth on dodge isn't a instant DE is safe mechanic. Good players know a deadeye has very low mobility. If it gets caught in melee. All u need to do is Aoe. N due to the deadeye having very little evades or blocks it would kill him. As Holo all u need to do is skill 5. Rev 2 or 4 etc. If the DE used his dodge for stealth it means he had no dodges.

>

> Rangers pew pew is ok because actually has skills as well as boons that allow it to take the hit, block or evade once melee is in place. DE doesn't have any of that. If they gave that to the DE I am all in favor of it tbh.

>

> And like I said DJ can't carry anything because u see it a mile away. With a dot a massive sound and a laser beam and it is now blockable.

>

> Mark giving default dmg isn't really a problem since like I said other class gain dmg boost by default like the soul beast.

>

> This comparison is really apples and oranges. If it's really true DE can carry you would really see it every where. And maybe at one point before Oct Nerf it could have been. But really if u don't barely ever see a class then it doesn't carry. Your statement doesn't make sense. It "carries" but blabla so no one plays it... So then it doesn't carry... Cos no 1 plays it.

>

 

It doesn't carry as hard as current popular meta builds this is true, but compare it to D/P dash which doesn't have all these safety nets and you see how much it carries in comparison (in a 1v1 the d/p should beat the DE but that's not what we are talking about). D/P requires positional knowledge, well timed use of skills, and requires sacrifice for stealth. DE requires none of this to play at a basic level and you can still see levels of success with it. That is what carrying means. Not "oh this build is so broken I hate it REEEEEEEE". Even s/d core carries bad players with 3 being a spammable unblockable and IR giving them a safety net. Doesn't make the build the most OP thing in the world, but it does mean that there are mechanics in there that ought to be removed for the overall health of the game, and in order to one day achieve balance.

[syszery.1592]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> It doesn't carry as hard as current popular meta builds this is true, but compare it to D/P dash which doesn't have all these safety nets and you see how much it carries in comparison (in a 1v1 the d/p should beat the DE but that's not what we are talking about). **D/P requires positional knowledge, well timed use of skills, and requires sacrifice for stealth**. DE requires none of this to play at a basic level and you can still see levels of success with it. That is what carrying means. Not "oh this build is so broken I hate it REEEEEEEE". Even s/d core carries bad players with 3 being a spammable unblockable and IR giving them a safety net. Doesn't make the build the most OP thing in the world, but it does mean that there are mechanics in there that ought to be removed for the overall health of the game, and in order to one day achieve balance.

 

This is simply wrong. Any squishy/bursty build needs good positioning, timing and knowledge of the class you are trying to burst... Otherwise you are just mashing buttons and you won't be successful with any build (at an average level of play at least - against noobs one might even win without traits...).

 

You argue like one of these guys who sticks so hard to d/p daredevil and cannot accept that (as in every MMO) there are times where one build shines and then it's another one. If you think your precious daredevil build is the only thing that people with god-like skill are supposed to play then that's ok for me. But s/d is not meta in sPvP without reason (and yes, it's because of mobility, unblockables, boon rip and sustain), i.e., it just overall performs better. And you can still tell who is actually good playing s/d and who isn't.

 

With deadeye it's similar. Best example is this youtube thief that made a rant video about one-shot deadeye. He played poorly, he failed the burst combo several times (which is so easy that everyone can do it - according to forms at least) and he only killed people he would kill easily with his daredevil build, too. So yes, funny that very good daredevil players are not carried by deadeye-perma-steath-brain-dead-builds. Don't you think?

[Ario.8964]

> @"syszery.1592" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > It doesn't carry as hard as current popular meta builds this is true, but compare it to D/P dash which doesn't have all these safety nets and you see how much it carries in comparison (in a 1v1 the d/p should beat the DE but that's not what we are talking about). **D/P requires positional knowledge, well timed use of skills, and requires sacrifice for stealth**. DE requires none of this to play at a basic level and you can still see levels of success with it. That is what carrying means. Not "oh this build is so broken I hate it REEEEEEEE". Even s/d core carries bad players with 3 being a spammable unblockable and IR giving them a safety net. Doesn't make the build the most OP thing in the world, but it does mean that there are mechanics in there that ought to be removed for the overall health of the game, and in order to one day achieve balance.

>

> This is simply wrong. Any squishy/bursty build needs good positioning, timing and knowledge of the class you are trying to burst... Otherwise you are just mashing buttons and you won't be successful with any build (at an average level of play at least - against noobs one might even win without traits...).

>

> You argue like one of these guys who sticks so hard to d/p daredevil and cannot accept that (as in every MMO) there are times where one build shines and then it's another one. If you think your precious daredevil build is the only thing that people with god-like skill are supposed to play then that's ok for me. But s/d is not meta in sPvP without reason (and yes, it's because of mobility, unblockables, boon rip and sustain), i.e., it just overall performs better. And you can still tell who is actually good playing s/d and who isn't.

>

> With deadeye it's similar. Best example is this youtube thief that made a rant video about one-shot deadeye. He played poorly, he failed the burst combo several times (which is so easy that everyone can do it - according to forms at least) and he only killed people he would kill easily with his daredevil build, too. So yes, funny that very good daredevil players are not carried by deadeye-perma-steath-brain-dead-builds. Don't you think?

 

D/P daredevil is not even close to being the only build that took skill. I can list out plenty of builds that take significantly more skill to play than DE. S/D takes plenty of skill like you said and is probably the closest thief build to actually being perfectly balanced. However, what I was pointing out are certain present mechanics (which I would like to mention were only present after anet tried to simplify the class/build because bad players couldn't play it effectively and they wanted to resell acro in the form of daredevil) that could be removed/changed in order to increase the skill requirements of the builds (literally just talking about IR and instead of reverting previous nerfs to allow 3 to preload the unblockable part of the skill, the buffing of it to be completely unblockable resulting in an easy spam tool against blocking builds which should never be the case) which in turn allows for selective buffing/streamlining of the sets to get thief out of the hole it's been stuck in since release due to bad mechanics not allowing for the class to be buffed in a way to make it competitive outside of being a decap monkey.

 

What I think, is that your argument boils down to "if you're good at a build that takes a lot of skill, then other builds that take less skill should be easy" which is the most absurd argument I think anyone has ever tried to bring onto the forums. If that was true, then everyone who played rev back when it was probably the highest skill cap in the game should be a god on every class since they are significantly easier to play than rev. That is not the case because mechanics change between classes and between builds. Your entire last paragraph is pointless because you take an example of one person with possibly very limited knowledge of daredevil (don't know the youtuber in question so I'll refrain from making judgements there) who then takes a build in for likely the first time, and doesn't do well. That is going to happen to basically everyone in any scenario (to different extents but the point is expecting peak performance out of someone who switched builds for the first time and is possibly only good at the one build they played prior is silly and doesn't constitute an argument)

 

As far as DE goes, it doesn't take near the amount of positional ability/knowledge due to the fact that your positioning on DE boils down to "don't be in melee". You don't have to get behind your target, you don't have to watch for aoe's near them for a burst opening, you don't have to know if the spot they are on can't be ported to, and you don't have to worry about missing your burst because you have safety in range. The second it gets compromised just dodge and stealth and port away with either shadowstep or rifle 4, it's not really all that difficult to do if you manage your cd's properly (look at how toker and vallun play on DE, they manage their cds in a way that allows them to always have an escape ready so for them it's a simple dodge and escape. Only DE's getting caught out are ones that seem to think by kneeling and spamming rifle 3 they will somehow win a fight and then they get eaten by damage). If you can manage to not play like someone who has only had the game for a month, you will almost never die and then it's a simple matter of figuring out how best to damage a target which is easy to do when you have the safety of range and on demand stealth with 0 set up (by that I mean not having to combo with any fields or use a skill, dodging is a very low cost compared to every other way the thief enters stealth)

 

Your issue is you aren't looking at the grand scheme of things, see that I mention a set that you may or may not like to play around the word "carry", and instantly assume I think the build takes 0 skill, you're a noob, and no matter how bad you are you will always be perfectly successful with it when that is not the case. The only point that is being made are that certain mechanics around on thief (DE, core, DD, and literally every other spec in the game that exists) that stop the class from being buffable without breaking it because they are mechanics that are not healthy and if buffed, would create a monster.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> The only point that is being made are that certain mechanics around on thief (DE, core, DD, and literally every other spec in the game that exists) that stop the class from being buffable without breaking it because they are mechanics that are not healthy and if buffed, would create a monster.

 

buffs regardless of mechanic they are affecting can make it unhealthy / 'a monster'. take away deadeyes frequent stealth and compensate it with positioning tools, can easily make those as unhealthy as stealth, if not worse. that they 'maybe' could be more difficult to use wont make it feel more pleasant/fair/balanced to fight against it.

afterall any mechanic can be considered unhealthy depending on circumstances.

 

[Ario.8964]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > The only point that is being made are that certain mechanics around on thief (DE, core, DD, and literally every other spec in the game that exists) that stop the class from being buffable without breaking it because they are mechanics that are not healthy and if buffed, would create a monster.

>

> buffs regardless of mechanic they are affecting can make it unhealthy / 'a monster'. take away deadeyes frequent stealth and compensate it with positioning tools, can easily make those as unhealthy as stealth, if not worse. that they 'maybe' could be more difficult to use wont make it feel more pleasant/fair/balanced to fight against it.

> afterall any mechanic can be considered unhealthy depending on circumstances.

>

 

Removal of stealth on dodge doesn't have to be compensated if it's not needed. But that's not for me to decide so I put in a possible solution to help with survivability if they don't have stealth on dodge as a survival crutch so people don't come in here with "you just want to nerf with no compensation"

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > The only point that is being made are that certain mechanics around on thief (DE, core, DD, and literally every other spec in the game that exists) that stop the class from being buffable without breaking it because they are mechanics that are not healthy and if buffed, would create a monster.

> >

> > buffs regardless of mechanic they are affecting can make it unhealthy / 'a monster'. take away deadeyes frequent stealth and compensate it with positioning tools, can easily make those as unhealthy as stealth, if not worse. that they 'maybe' could be more difficult to use wont make it feel more pleasant/fair/balanced to fight against it.

> > afterall any mechanic can be considered unhealthy depending on circumstances.

> >

>

> Removal of stealth on dodge doesn't have to be compensated if it's not needed. But that's not for me to decide so I put in a possible solution to help with survivability if they don't have stealth on dodge as a survival crutch so people don't come in here with "you just want to nerf with no compensation"

 

indeed just nerfing it because you dont like to play against it is really not a reason, as you said yourself deadeye is not too strong, just has low skill scaling.

 

good players also profit from stealth on dodge btw and like with any other mechanic, they will profit from it more than bad players.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"syszery.1592" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > It doesn't carry as hard as current popular meta builds this is true, but compare it to D/P dash which doesn't have all these safety nets and you see how much it carries in comparison (in a 1v1 the d/p should beat the DE but that's not what we are talking about). **D/P requires positional knowledge, well timed use of skills, and requires sacrifice for stealth**. DE requires none of this to play at a basic level and you can still see levels of success with it. That is what carrying means. Not "oh this build is so broken I hate it REEEEEEEE". Even s/d core carries bad players with 3 being a spammable unblockable and IR giving them a safety net. Doesn't make the build the most OP thing in the world, but it does mean that there are mechanics in there that ought to be removed for the overall health of the game, and in order to one day achieve balance.

> >

> > This is simply wrong. Any squishy/bursty build needs good positioning, timing and knowledge of the class you are trying to burst... Otherwise you are just mashing buttons and you won't be successful with any build (at an average level of play at least - against noobs one might even win without traits...).

> >

> > You argue like one of these guys who sticks so hard to d/p daredevil and cannot accept that (as in every MMO) there are times where one build shines and then it's another one. If you think your precious daredevil build is the only thing that people with god-like skill are supposed to play then that's ok for me. But s/d is not meta in sPvP without reason (and yes, it's because of mobility, unblockables, boon rip and sustain), i.e., it just overall performs better. And you can still tell who is actually good playing s/d and who isn't.

> >

> > With deadeye it's similar. Best example is this youtube thief that made a rant video about one-shot deadeye. He played poorly, he failed the burst combo several times (which is so easy that everyone can do it - according to forms at least) and he only killed people he would kill easily with his daredevil build, too. So yes, funny that very good daredevil players are not carried by deadeye-perma-steath-brain-dead-builds. Don't you think?

>

> D/P daredevil is not even close to being the only build that took skill. I can list out plenty of builds that take significantly more skill to play than DE. S/D takes plenty of skill like you said and is probably the closest thief build to actually being perfectly balanced. However, what I was pointing out are certain present mechanics (which I would like to mention were only present after anet tried to simplify the class/build because bad players couldn't play it effectively and they wanted to resell acro in the form of daredevil) that could be removed/changed in order to increase the skill requirements of the builds (literally just talking about IR and instead of reverting previous nerfs to allow 3 to preload the unblockable part of the skill, the buffing of it to be completely unblockable resulting in an easy spam tool against blocking builds which should never be the case) which in turn allows for selective buffing/streamlining of the sets to get thief out of the hole it's been stuck in since release due to bad mechanics not allowing for the class to be buffed in a way to make it competitive outside of being a decap monkey.

>

> What I think, is that your argument boils down to "if you're good at a build that takes a lot of skill, then other builds that take less skill should be easy" which is the most absurd argument I think anyone has ever tried to bring onto the forums. If that was true, then everyone who played rev back when it was probably the highest skill cap in the game should be a god on every class since they are significantly easier to play than rev. That is not the case because mechanics change between classes and between builds. Your entire last paragraph is pointless because you take an example of one person with possibly very limited knowledge of daredevil (don't know the youtuber in question so I'll refrain from making judgements there) who then takes a build in for likely the first time, and doesn't do well. That is going to happen to basically everyone in any scenario (to different extents but the point is expecting peak performance out of someone who switched builds for the first time and is possibly only good at the one build they played prior is silly and doesn't constitute an argument)

>

> As far as DE goes, it doesn't take near the amount of positional ability/knowledge due to the fact that your positioning on DE boils down to "don't be in melee". You don't have to get behind your target, you don't have to watch for aoe's near them for a burst opening, you don't have to know if the spot they are on can't be ported to, and you don't have to worry about missing your burst because you have safety in range. The second it gets compromised just dodge and stealth and port away with either shadowstep or rifle 4, it's not really all that difficult to do if you manage your cd's properly (look at how toker and vallun play on DE, they manage their cds in a way that allows them to always have an escape ready so for them it's a simple dodge and escape. Only DE's getting caught out are ones that seem to think by kneeling and spamming rifle 3 they will somehow win a fight and then they get eaten by damage). If you can manage to not play like someone who has only had the game for a month, you will almost never die and then it's a simple matter of figuring out how best to damage a target which is easy to do when you have the safety of range and on demand stealth with 0 set up (by that I mean not having to combo with any fields or use a skill, dodging is a very low cost compared to every other way the thief enters stealth)

>

> Your issue is you aren't looking at the grand scheme of things, see that I mention a set that you may or may not like to play around the word "carry", and instantly assume I think the build takes 0 skill, you're a noob, and no matter how bad you are you will always be perfectly successful with it when that is not the case. The only point that is being made are that certain mechanics around on thief (DE, core, DD, and literally every other spec in the game that exists) that stop the class from being buffable without breaking it because they are mechanics that are not healthy and if buffed, would create a monster.

 

You clearly have never played DE if u think all u need to think about is to be in range n knowing when ur burst is doesn't matter.

 

A DE trades most of their mobility for dps. Just because u can dps doesn't mean u keep shooting. There are alot of reflects blocks and evades. U can keep shotting but be useless cos u r not actually downing players or getting kills. To be successful u have to get them to use all their cool downs before u burst. While they r getting close to u.

 

U don't just have to be aware of the skills the person u r shooting u have to be aware of ur surroundings like any other class. Because the moment a core guard ports on u, a rev ports on u or thief or what ever else. U will die very quickly.

 

Shadow step is a 1 time thing. Just like stone sig, endure pain, blink etc etc is a 1 time thing. If u r really doing maximum dmg u won't have so much int to spam skill 4.

 

Positioning completely matters as a DE. Because u need to get to spots that r difficult to get to. N that takes alot of time because u r slow. A good build also doesn't have perma stealth n u shldnt waste ur dodges to get into stealth to do that cos u won't have it when u need it. N while u r doing that u r not helping ur team.

 

But I think there is absolutely zero point in replying to u. Since u don't play DE. U may have tired it on unranked for a little bit. N killed some new people easily but non of what u say actually makes sense.