NERF CONDI

[saerni.2584]

> @Blodeuyn.2751 said:

> > @saerni.2584 said:

> > Lol, it's always "condi is op" and never "this build is op."

> >

> > That is about as sensical as getting with a power damage bomb and saying "nerf power."

> >

> > I've said it before and I'll say it again.

> >

> > The only thing unfair about condition damage is having to listen to people who don't understand how conditions are balanced complain about them constantly.

>

> Please do lay out for us in detail how conditions are balanced. Also, you don't have to read the forum posts regarding condi if you don't like them.

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/707/condition-damage-master-guide#latest

 

A short explanation. The issue is that people either expect total immunity from conditions or expect a "condition bomb" applied by five or more people to not be able to kill them quickly.

 

No one is pure condi. The skills that apply conditions usually have power damage associated with them as well. And power users often use cripple/blind/immobilize/weakness and vulnerability to great advantage while doing minimal, but present, damage with conditions.

 

A hybrid build does more damage than a power zerker. However, a power zerker may perform better than a hybrid in situations where an opponent brings abnormal condition cleanse. A condition user in Dire doesn't do much power damage and suffers more than a hybrid build does against high cleanse opponents. But a Dire build will be more survivable than a hybrid so the trade off is damage for survival and the risk that an anti-condition build will not be killable in some situations.

 

This isn't to say a condition build can never be OP. Specific builds may be overtuned and deserve nerfs. But that doesn't make conditions themselves OP.

 

"Remove burn from the game." That kind of suggestion pops up all the time. That is throwing the baby out with the bath water. If too much burning is being applied the traits/skills need tuning. There is nothing inherently wrong with the idea of damage over time. Cleanse is the replacement for having a stat which reduces damage. (Armor for power damage).

 

It's a poor system, because more cleanse means conditions need to burst harder to be viable in combat. And they are meant to be viable. However, that is not an issue with conditions. That is an issue with the huge number of cleanse skills (much like all the other skills which promote a burst power damage meta). That goes to class balance. Ask for nerfs to condition cleanse and other defensives if you hate the burst meta.

 

But don't pretend it's only conditions that can burst people down. Both can burst and both need to burst to be viable. Nerf both or nerf neither.

[KrHome.1920]

> @saerni.2584 said:

> A short explanation. The issue is that people either expect total immunity from conditions or expect a "condition bomb" applied by five or more people to not be able to kill them quickly.

No, people expect that a condi build user has to put the same effort in a match to win like a power build user.

 

On a condi build you have more room for errors because you are more tanky. **That's the reason why condi mitigation (=cleanses) should always be stronger than power mitigation** or alternatively: **condi damage should be much lower than power damage** to keep the gameplay healthy. Both is not the case in the current mechanic.

 

I am saying it everytime at this point in condi burst discussions: ANet removed all tanky condi amulets from PvP for a reason. But they are giving WvW players these stats - with obvious balancing issues.

[saerni.2584]

No, Anet removed all tanks amulets of all kinds from pvp. It wasn't a response to conditions it was a response to a tank / sustain meta where people weren't dying fast enough or at all.

 

Condition users do put in effort. They have skills which follow the same rules as power user's skills. This is another common fallacy advanced by those complaining about condition damage, that somehow the conditions magically appear on them with no way to stop them.

 

Your insistence that condition damage be lower than power damage misses the point. The point is that burst is THE meta. Your complaint blames conditions for bursting when the game is balanced around burst damage. Unless you want that to nerf both you just want condition specs not to be viable. Which isn't going to happen.

 

I repeat, Anet isn't going to nerf conditions into unviability. The only solution they might do involves a nerf across the board to all types of burst damage.

[Blodeuyn.2751]

> @saerni.2584 said:

> > @Blodeuyn.2751 said:

> > > @saerni.2584 said:

> > > Lol, it's always "condi is op" and never "this build is op."

> > >

> > > That is about as sensical as getting with a power damage bomb and saying "nerf power."

> > >

> > > I've said it before and I'll say it again.

> > >

> > > The only thing unfair about condition damage is having to listen to people who don't understand how conditions are balanced complain about them constantly.

> >

> > Please do lay out for us in detail how conditions are balanced. Also, you don't have to read the forum posts regarding condi if you don't like them.

>

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/707/condition-damage-master-guide#latest

>

> A short explanation. The issue is that people either expect total immunity from conditions or expect a "condition bomb" applied by five or more people to not be able to kill them quickly.

>

> No one is pure condi. The skills that apply conditions usually have power damage associated with them as well. And power users often use cripple/blind/immobilize/weakness and vulnerability to great advantage while doing minimal, but present, damage with conditions.

>

> A hybrid build does more damage than a power zerker. However, a power zerker may perform better than a hybrid in situations where an opponent brings abnormal condition cleanse. A condition user in Dire doesn't do much power damage and suffers more than a hybrid build does against high cleanse opponents. But a Dire build will be more survivable than a hybrid so the trade off is damage for survival and the risk that an anti-condition build will not be killable in some situations.

>

> This isn't to say a condition build can never be OP. Specific builds may be overtuned and deserve nerfs. But that doesn't make conditions themselves OP.

>

> "Remove burn from the game." That kind of suggestion pops up all the time. That is throwing the baby out with the bath water. If too much burning is being applied the traits/skills need tuning. There is nothing inherently wrong with the idea of damage over time. Cleanse is the replacement for having a stat which reduces damage. (Armor for power damage).

>

> It's a poor system, because more cleanse means conditions need to burst harder to be viable in combat. And they are meant to be viable. However, that is not an issue with conditions. That is an issue with the huge number of cleanse skills (much like all the other skills which promote a burst power damage meta). That goes to class balance. Ask for nerfs to condition cleanse and other defensives if you hate the burst meta.

>

> But don't pretend it's only conditions that can burst people down. Both can burst and both need to burst to be viable. Nerf both or nerf neither.

 

I'm not going to read something you posted in the pvp thread. Conditions are an issue in wvw, and I don't think people expect total immunity or condi bombs to not kill them quickly. I don't think you've really read some of the examples of how condi is broken in wvw. Balance is very much an issue.

[saerni.2584]

The post was made there because I had to make a choice between WvW and PvP subforums. But it was a general post about them overall. It explains how the various conditions do damage and how condition damage is mitigated. I.e. it discusses the means by which condition damage is balanced.

 

I agree "balance is an issue." It's always an issue. An issue specific to specific builds. That's my argument. And WvW should be balanced based on a different set of considerations given food and armor stats that are higher than those in pvp.

 

That doesn't make conditions OP. Just stat inflation. But, I don't think WvW balance should allow people much better survival in 5v1 situations. I might argue target limits are how WvW is balanced in many cases—because getting hit by 10 people should hurt (and probably kill you).

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Is it too late to say ya'all need to adapt your playstyles and builds? Most PoF condi heavy classes are out ranged or are not that mobile (one of these 2 apply to them). I play D/P + rifle deadeye, pewpew soulbeast and condi scourge and can say that on my DPS builds, Mirage/scourges and firebrands don't pose that much of an issue. If ya dont wanna change your toon or even adapt your playstyle and/or build then you can't fully complain

 

Also, offer bacon to them and they will falter which means you automatically win :)

[Kidel.2057]

> @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

> Is it too late to say ya'all need to adapt your playstyles and builds? Most PoF condi heavy classes are out ranged or are not that mobile (one of these 2 apply to them). I play D/P + rifle deadeye, pewpew soulbeast and condi scourge and can say that on my DPS builds, Mirage/scourges and firebrands don't pose that much of an issue. If ya dont wanna change your toon or even adapt your playstyle and/or build then you can't fully complain

>

> Also, offer bacon to them and they will falter which means you automatically win :)

 

Basically only a deadeye can outrange a Scourge. Plus deadeye is OP in wvw, so of course you don't mind condis and you suggest to "adapt", since you don't need to adapt to anything.

[Blodeuyn.2751]

> @saerni.2584 said:

> The post was made there because I had to make a choice between WvW and PvP subforums. But it was a general post about them overall. It explains how the various conditions do damage and how condition damage is mitigated. I.e. it discusses the means by which condition damage is balanced.

>

> I agree "balance is an issue." It's always an issue. An issue specific to specific builds. That's my argument. And WvW should be balanced based on a different set of considerations given food and armor stats that are higher than those in pvp.

>

> That doesn't make conditions OP. Just stat inflation. But, I don't think WvW balance should allow people much better survival in 5v1 situations. I might argue target limits are how WvW is balanced in many cases—because getting hit by 10 people should hurt (and probably kill you).

 

What I should have said, is would you mind posting in this thread? Then we have it here for discussion where wvw people are more likely to see it. I myself don't read the pvp forum (I should have said that in a less bitchy way).

[GUFF.5692]

As long as condition damage is treated differently than power damage as far as mitigation we will never have balance in wvw as far as conditions.

 

Condition builds also enjoy the flexibility to only have to stack 2 stats for damage allowing them to stack defensively for their remaining slots. The main culprit here is trailblazers but there are others.

 

Ranger recently got a trait in the new soulbeast elite specialization that allows protection to reduce condition damage by 33. Other elite specs received other ways to reduce condition damage as well. To me this is a sign Anet wants to experiment with more ways to mitigate condition damage. Its a step in the right direction but will not fix the issue.

[xDudisx.5914]

Condi and boon spam could be tonned down a little

[saerni.2584]

I'll repost this in lieu of a link then.

 

> @saerni.2584 said:

>

> Conditions are an alternative form of damage (compared to power based damage) which relies primarily on the condition damage and expertise statistics. Condition damage improves the overall damage at a given moment and expertise adds duration. Duration, however, means more stacks of conditions can build up at once and this results in higher numbers as well.

>

> Conditions are applied through various weapon skills, specialization traits and utilities. These application abilities can be dodged, blocked and in some cases reflected or avoided through line of sight. Invulnerability also functions to prevent condition application but does not prevent damage from already applied conditions. Understanding how a condition is applied is the first step, generally, in being able to avoid being hit in the future.

>

> Once applied, conditions apply a base damage value and additional (conditional) damage in the case of torment and confusion. Torment applies double damage while moving. Confusion applies significantly higher damage per skill activation. Poison will additionally reduce healing by 33%. Understanding how conditions function is the first step to deciding when you should cleanse and when you should wait to cleanse.

>

> Cleanse is a mitigation mechanic designed to reduce, but not eliminate, condition damage. In a sense, cleanse is like toughness is for power damage—cleanse unique to conditions and toughness unique for power damage. Not all cleanse is created equal. There are targeted cleanses (which remove specific conditions) and generic cleanses (which remove any condition you have on you. Both will remove the conditions they target in a last in-first out system. Targeted cleanses can be used to full intended effect at any time. Generic cleanses, however, can only be used to full intended effect when the number of conditions removed by the cleanse is at least equal to the number you want to remove. This is what a "cover" condition is designed to prevent by making generic cleanses target unimportant conditions over the ones doing significant damage. Knowing when to time your cleanses, targeted and generic, is crucial to surviving against condition builds.

>

> Next, boons also work to reduce condition damage. Resistance is a short lived 100% immunity to all condition effects. This is comparable to the protection boon, which significantly reduces power damage for comparatively longer than resistance provides immunity. Because resistance is short lived, and can be corrupted, it is crucial to learn how to time it for maximum effect with minimal risk. Immunity isn't forever.

>

> Turning to a common complaint, conditions will feel like they kill very quickly. This is, most likely, intended by Anet. The move away from bunker builds and towards a burst meta has been well documented. Both power and condition builds have gotten better at killing quickly and most classes have fewer survival options than in the past. That said, part of the reason conditions burst as hard as they do is because cleanse is more variable than toughness as a statistic. Cleanse can, in the right situations reduce condition damage taken to a fraction of its potential. For this reason, conditions need to deal their damage between cleanses to remain effective—and Anet wants conditions to be effective in pvp/WvW (and yes PvE).

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @Kidel.2057 said:

> > @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

> > Is it too late to say ya'all need to adapt your playstyles and builds? Most PoF condi heavy classes are out ranged or are not that mobile (one of these 2 apply to them). I play D/P + rifle deadeye, pewpew soulbeast and condi scourge and can say that on my DPS builds, Mirage/scourges and firebrands don't pose that much of an issue. If ya dont wanna change your toon or even adapt your playstyle and/or build then you can't fully complain

> >

> > Also, offer bacon to them and they will falter which means you automatically win :)

>

> Basically only a deadeye can outrange a Scourge. Plus deadeye is OP in wvw, so of course you don't mind condis and you suggest to "adapt", since you don't need to adapt to anything.

 

Nope...there are others that can outrange them (you also missed my Out Mobility them point as well).

 

Deadeye is one, ranger/druid/Soulbeast is another. Daredevil can make quick work with them

 

Mesmer/Chrono/MIrage can also do it

 

Heck, even Engi's mortar can outrange them

 

Right there there are 4 classes that can typically easily beat them.

 

There are also skills from various classes that can as well.

 

So yeah...adapt.

[Lokki.1092]

Condition builds do more damage than Power builds with less stat investment, leaving them free to also stack Toughness and Vitality. Becoming more tanky than Power builds while dealing more sustained damage, and as much burst.

 

This is compounded that Power based damage is mitigated by armor, passively, Armor being a fairly easy stat to increase at will. Meanwhile there is nothing any of us can do to increase our condition damage mitigation. Your class has X amount of removals, and access to Y amount of resistance. That's all you have.

 

And really the biggest problem with condition builds is it's flat out not fun to play against. If each class had their damage condition and only that condition it would work better IMHO. I've fought some Firebrands and it has been great. While their damage can be absolutely insane the fight becomes this tug of war where I need to hold onto my cleanse for the right moment, because if I waste it I'm dead but it is ultimately useful because when I need to I can wipe their damage. While they are holding onto burst, while trying to put me in a position where I have to cleanse early. Meanwhile with Scourge I have so many conditions that my removals are almost worthless. The fights boil down to I burst you, you burst me, fire everything! Coin flip who lives. The current WvW condi meta is simply not fun to play against, even when you are a condi player.

[Jana.6831]

Lokki: You have vitality against condis. Doesn't mean you aren't right, you are.

Our vitality didn't increase with the June 2015 patch while everything else was increased. Maybe one of the problems.

[Squall Link.5412]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

> Heck, even Engi's mortar can outrange them

>

 

LMAO

Engi just can't beat a scourge...please stop say stupid things. Maybe as rifle scrapper but it's really hard if the scourge is good.>

 

[Neage.3579]

i typically don'd mind condi builds...but wtf they did in this PoF. is just over the top... spvp I cant do anything when I have necro vomit all over me.... and lord forbid there are 2 necros...

[slimike.1693]

Nerf this shit pls.... havent been playing nearly as much b/c of it.... get condi bombed, pop resistance, next second its stripped....literally one condi tick later im fucking dead. Then i log cause wth i can spend my time doing better stuff then getting nuked in 3 seconds by a necro.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Squall Link.5412" said:

> @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

> > Heck, even Engi's mortar can outrange them

> >

>

> LMAO

> Engi just can't beat a scourge...please stop say stupid things. Maybe as rifle scrapper but it's really hard if the scourge is good.>

>

 

LMAO i didnt say they could beat them perse. If you read even your snippet, I said they an OUTRANGE them (hence the part you posted). Also Scourges can get beat by decent engi's/scrappers/holosmiths. Thats the beauty of "learning and adapting". once you fight a few as them, you learn what to watch for and adapt your approach and/or build.

 

If you are gonna try to point out something "stupid", please make your argument a little less "open"

[Lokki.1092]

> @Jana.6831 said:

> Lokki: You have vitality against condis. Doesn't mean you aren't right, you are.

> Our vitality didn't increase with the June 2015 patch while everything else was increased. Maybe one of the problems.

 

You are not wrong, but I would point out that vitality works equally good... Actually better, against power builds than it does Condi.

 

It's not that condi is some instant "I win!" button, but the mechanics of it make it far to good when compared to the power option. Even all that i mentioned doesn't cover it, here's another. Condi builds get better CC on top of damage because both CC and DOTs are considered _conditions_. This is yet another problem, look at other MMOs with DOT based classes, their CC ability doesn't increase with their DOT damage. In fact their dot damage often scales in the same way that non DOT classes scale. Using the exact same stats.

 

Can you imagine in LoL getting an item to increase your damage and purely because of it's stats your immobilize skill now lasts 30% longer? It would be laughably broken for very clear reasons.

 

If Power, Precision, Ferocity worked the exact same way on Conditions as Power, If Armor effected Conditions, condition clears were instead CC clears but didn't effect DOTs, and there was zero condition duration or even resistance, We wouldn't even be having this conversation. The main problem is that condition damage in this game follows a completely different set of rules which seemed fine when the damage scale was so terrible no one used them, but after condi was buffed those rules help to make conditions absolutely dominate certain area's of game play. It has become so prevalent that now every class has moved to condi builds and condi play, the last hold out was guardians who were absolutely begging for a condi build so they can also keep up, and that is exactly what they received.

 

I personally don't think this is a good thing. Even outside of a balance standpoint I dislike it. I mean, at this point what is the difference between my Zerker, my Tempest and my Firebrand? They are all literally fire throwing mages, shooting fire out of their weapons and summoning it at enemies with a thought. The entire look and feel of some of the classes has been completely effected by this condi meta.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @saerni.2584 said:

> Lol, it's always "condi is op" and never "this build is op."

>

> That is about as sensical as getting with a power damage bomb and saying "nerf power."

Yeah, this. Pretty much every complaint about "conditions" is complaining about _necromancers_, but it's always "nerf conditions across the board".

[Jana.6831]

> @Lokki.1092 said:

> You are not wrong, but I would point out that vitality works equally good... Actually better, against power builds than it does Condi.

Not sure about that as I don't know how toughness translates.

 

I know all of the rest, except other games which I don't.

Got mad when I saw that mesmers have got access to blind as a master and grandmaster in the same traitline while I have acces to either a butchered blind or healing (reason why I quit this game). That's when I gave up on reading about what condi builds can do.

 

Edit: Severe typing dyslexia today.

[Kidel.2057]

> @Neage.3579 said:

> i typically don'd mind condi builds...but kitten they did in this PoF. is just over the top... spvp I cant do anything when I have necro vomit all over me.... and lord forbid there are 2 necros...

 

the problem is that they can output almost every condition in half a second, so whan you can only cleanse 1 or 2, you're still left with 3.

Every class should have 1 condition only, 2 at best.

[Squall Link.5412]

> @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

> > @"Squall Link.5412" said:

> > @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

> > > Heck, even Engi's mortar can outrange them

> > >

> >

> > LMAO

> > Engi just can't beat a scourge...please stop say stupid things. Maybe as rifle scrapper but it's really hard if the scourge is good.>

> >

>

> LMAO i didnt say they could beat them perse. If you read even your snippet, I said they an OUTRANGE them (hence the part you posted). Also Scourges can get beat by decent engi's/scrappers/holosmiths. Thats the beauty of "learning and adapting". once you fight a few as them, you learn what to watch for and adapt your approach and/or build.

>

> If you are gonna try to point out something "stupid", please make your argument a little less "open"

 

Hum. You said 4 classes can beat the scourge and you quote 4 classes...huuum...

But ok, the mortar can outrange the necro. The mortar do really poor damages and it slow. Why outrange a necro if can't hit him or even burst him? So yeah it was stupid :').

 

Yeah, an engi can beat a scourge, especially as rifle scrapper but it still really difficult because of corrupts. As you said, you need range to beat them and range is not really part of engi (rifle is stronger with short range, but still good against necros). Grenades could help against scourge. I think it's the only good weapon against scourge to be honest. I played my scrapper rifle grenades builds against a scourge and yeah, it's better than holosmith. But if the scourge is good, really, you have no chances, trust me. Decent scourge > decent engi.

 

About the "you learn what to watch for and adapt". I'm bored to learn this. I should change my build because conditions are too strong? In 1v1, why not. Sure, I read you play ranger, scourge and sniper, 3 classes who can counter the scourge. What about the others? When I'm roaming, I would not play a counter-scourge build with my engi just because there is scourges or other condi OP builds in this game :')

 

When I fight a scourge as engi, even with an adapted anti-condi build, I spend more time trying to clean conditions and survive than dps. And when I fight, I have weakness so...:D

 

So yes, conditions hit too hard (especially the scourge), the main issue is you have more ways to apply conditions than to defend from it. I really hope a rework of conditions in wvw but I know this will never happen. Sad because it's really not fun to play against condis. Condis is only fun for condis players.

And I played scourge in spvp yesterday. I never played necros in pvp. I was surprised how I was rollfacing my keyboard and killing everyone. I can't imagine with a good necro ^^'.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Squall Link.5412" said:

> > @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

> > > @"Squall Link.5412" said:

> > > @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

> > > > Heck, even Engi's mortar can outrange them

> > > >

> > >

> > > LMAO

> > > Engi just can't beat a scourge...please stop say stupid things. Maybe as rifle scrapper but it's really hard if the scourge is good.>

> > >

> >

> > LMAO i didnt say they could beat them perse. If you read even your snippet, I said they an OUTRANGE them (hence the part you posted). Also Scourges can get beat by decent engi's/scrappers/holosmiths. Thats the beauty of "learning and adapting". once you fight a few as them, you learn what to watch for and adapt your approach and/or build.

> >

> > If you are gonna try to point out something "stupid", please make your argument a little less "open"

>

>I'm bored to learn this. I should change my build because conditions are too strong?

 

Essentially yes. If you are too bored than that's more of a personal issue. If you are bored of adapting then you are a part of the overall problem.

 

yeah I play those classes but I also play others you failed to mention (Mirage (which doesnt have many cleanses, so I adapted my playstyle to try to avoid getting bombed), and Holosmith. Granted i agree with the engi vs condi builds you are clearing more often than fighting, but if you adapt the build (take Elixir C and at least 1/2 elixirs with HGH) and that will help the issue. Is it the engi's fix? Possibly not, however it does give them a fighting chance when played right. Complaining doesnt help you as much as adapting will.

 

All of this being said, I can agree that the amount of condi's a scourge (out of all classes) can pump out in the amount of timeframes it does could use a bit of a balance, however it is what it is and its up to MMO gamer to learn to adapt and move on until things are changed. If you focus on moving on instead of clinging to complaining about it, things will look and feel better. Sooner anyone can see this the better.

 

remember...you can't win every fight (how hard i try to fight DE's while roaming on my scourge, they are a counter to me. still working on learning how to take them down)

 

Now, lets have some bacon.

[kathy.8291]

I have been saying this in my post "More Condi in WvW: which i even put a poll up. Do you really think Anet is listening to people that play WvW. hmmmm Dont think so