High end Support pve chrono players, how much fun are you having now since Dec 11?

[Opopanax.1803]

> @"Einsof.1457" said:

> > @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > Nothing in your poll suggests you are asking about "flow" and how intriguing gameplay is. Why would you assume that people read it the same way as you are spinning it now?

>

> It was just an example of a component of fun gameplay. Relax.

 

I think that "disingenuous" as pointed out by Obtena sums up this thread pretty well at this point. Carry on as you see fit.

[Gulbasaur.1865]

I know I'm not the target audience of this poll, but I started transitioning out of mainly mirage into chronomancer after the patch. The chronojail boon wetnurse role looked like dog poo in terms of gameplay to me.

 

Now it looks less like slavery, I think it's actually taken the pressure off and made me want to play it again.

 

I mained a druid in raids before, so it's not like I'm shy of pulling my weight (and, ahem, the weight of others at times) as support.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Einsof.1457" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

> > > > @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> > > > What is fun is subjective;

> > >

> > > And the poll shows it prettty clearly, thanks OP!

> >

> > Sure, it does. No one is arguing it doesn't. It's obvious when there is massive changes like this. You could run and 'un-fun' poll for every balance patch ... and you would see the same thing. This isn't exceptional.

> >

> > The problem I have is that it's very disingenuous for someone to link a subjective element like 'fun' to the success of a balance patch because there is zero correlation between them; Anet can never be right in the eyes of players if that's the case (gee, look at this thread). I also don't think people should place their sense of fun above the greater good of the game; it's a rather selfish gesture. The changes to Chrono had to happen; the reasons had already been given and discussed. It was shameful they didn't happen sooner.

> >

>

> Your problem is you are operating under the incorrect notion that somehow when a profession is nerfed, that fun gameplay is also nerfed along with it.

 

No, I'm not. I'm operating under the fact that fun is subjective; Anet can't set a target for and measure how much 'fun' changed when they make a change to the game. That's because there is no correlation between balance and fun. That means they can't figure out what direction to balance to get 'fun' back or make it better. They aren't dependent in any way.

 

Your poll simply tells them some people are not having fun because of the change ... which is pretty much always the case; I can bet some others are though, because they some people see the bigger picture.

 

> @"Gulbasaur.1865" said:

> I know I'm not the target audience of this poll, but I started transitioning out of mainly mirage into chronomancer after the patch. The chronojail boon wetnurse role looked like dog poo in terms of gameplay to me.

>

> Now it looks less like slavery, I think it's actually taken the pressure off and made me want to play it again.

>

> I mained a druid in raids before, so it's not like I'm shy of pulling my weight (and, ahem, the weight of others at times) as support.

 

Exactly ... ask warriors how 'fun' it is to be a banner slave all the time.

[Einsof.1457]

> @"Gulbasaur.1865" said:

> I know I'm not the target audience of this poll, but I started transitioning out of mainly mirage into chronomancer after the patch. The chronojail boon wetnurse role looked like dog poo in terms of gameplay to me.

>

> Now it looks less like slavery, I think it's actually taken the pressure off and made me want to play it again.

>

> I mained a druid in raids before, so it's not like I'm shy of pulling my weight (and, ahem, the weight of others at times) as support.

 

That's an interesting perspective I had not considered. Thank you

[Gulbasaur.1865]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Exactly ... ask warriors how 'fun' it is to be a banner slave all the time.

 

Yeah. Druid is usually expected to keep at least two spirits up, which is basically the same thing but you can fly under the radar and use glyphs if you know what you're doing and celestial avatar makes up for the lack of variety. If all I did was camp staff until it was warhorn tootin' time for boons, it would be very dull. I haven't played warrior so I don't know if they've got a third "weapon" like celestial avatar that I just haven't noticed, but having two or three utility skills tied up limits you very quickly. Moreso if your F skills are as situational as the druid ones.

 

Anyway, don't want to get off topic too much. I think destabilising the meta was necessary and opened it up considerably and I've returned to chronomancer because of it. I'm looking forward to the diviner gear and I'm enjoying playing the spec again.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Gulbasaur.1865" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Exactly ... ask warriors how 'fun' it is to be a banner slave all the time.

>

> Yeah. Druid is usually expected to keep at least two spirits up, which is basically the same thing but you can fly under the radar and use glyphs if you know what you're doing and celestial avatar makes up for the lack of variety. If all I did was camp staff until it was warhorn tootin' time for boons, it would be very dull. I haven't played warrior so I don't know if they've got a third "weapon" like celestial avatar that I just haven't noticed, but having two or three utility skills tied up limits you very quickly. Moreso if your F skills are as situational as the druid ones.

>

> Anyway, don't want to get off topic too much. I think destabilising the meta was necessary and opened it up considerably and I've returned to chronomancer because of it. I'm looking forward to the diviner gear and I'm enjoying playing the spec again. I took one look at the old meta and watched a couple of YouTube videos and noped out.

 

Counterpoint to your comments here: power Chrono was just as good pre-patch. You could have played it then too, you just chose not to. Now granted, most Chronos in PvE comps were support, but power Chrono did not gain viability with this change, support Chrono lost it.

[Gulbasaur.1865]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> Counterpoint to your comments here: power Chrono was just as good pre-patch. You could have played it then too, you just chose not to. Now granted, most Chronos in PvE comps were support, but power Chrono did not gain viability with this change, support Chrono lost it.

 

Oh, yeah I totally agree it was my choice.

 

But, from experience, there is always a bit of antagonism towards people who deviate from meta support builds, especially as boonshare support chrono was the core of the *entire* raid and fractal meta due to how incredibly unbalanced it was, and there was always a shortage of them.

 

I saw my future, and it was nine other players asking why they don't have all permanent alacrity uptime.

 

I thought "cool, now I can play how I want". I'm not going "hooray for nerfs" or anything, but the change in situation made me give it another go with less of a feeling that I'd end up hating it sooner or later.

[Kodama.6453]

Sorry, but I think that this poll does not give any meaningful information, either.

There are some reasons for this.

 

1. The patch was a net nerf for chronomancer, so it is to be expected that the results will call the changes "unfun". Nerfs are usually seen as unfun by the people playing the profession that got nerfed.

2. Unhappy people often are more motivated to let their voices be heard than happy people, therefore it is more likely for someone unhappy with the changes to come to this thread and sharing his opinion about the patch than someone who is happy and simply enjoys the game instead of spending time on the boards telling others that he is enjoying his time in the game.

3. At least in my eyes, the last option of the poll makes it slightly manipulative. You have more choices on the negative side of the spectrum than on the positive side.

 

________________________

 

Since I don't play Chronomancer, I won't participate in the poll, but I just wanted to point out that the results here should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Primal Duolog.9863]

Ignoring the over-the-top boon spam and cc ability of chronomancers in pve prior to 11 Dec patch (Read: Boon spam and CC not the main point here),

and looking only at Quickness and alacrity generation to sub-squad, the main complaint is the loss of the 600 radius share of alacrity and quickness because people don't really step in wells. And it feels unfulfilling when the application is so clunky and half the time people don't get boons.

[Nepster.4275]

It was hard to catch people in fractals even with the 600 range instant share, now that they actually need to stand in one place for a given time, its impossible to share any important boons on events that requies people to run around.Also i understand that they wanted to nerf the all-boon chrono, yeah thats a thing i agree with, but they could have done it with just changing the chaos tree. I do not like the whole concept of SoI because i mean, if you have no boons on yourself its useless for other people, with this i mean, that we got a support class(now it seems like chrono is going to become a power dps class tho) who isnt able to give any advantages to people who are not willing to stand in one place for a period of time. So i ask, why?

When the changes to sigils happened, they claimed that they will try to replace the lost boon duration by giving new stats, but i my question is: Why would you use boon duration when you get no use out of it?

I mean at that time, chrono was the main user of concentration(druid too, but since the stat is Diviner with power/prec/fero/conc so this doesnt appy to druid players, so they aimed this to chrono players)

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Nepster.4275" said:

> It was hard to catch people in fractals even with the 600 range instant share, now that they actually need to stand in one place for a given time, its impossible to share any important boons on events that requies people to run around.

 

That's the case for any AoE skill. It's not impossible because that's the way it was only a short time ago. People not having the skill to stand in a well to get a buff is a good reason to MAKE it so they have to stand in wells ... **again**. Besides, I'm starting to see some comments that make me wonder how that affects the Chrono player's fun ... people that do or don't stand in your well has zero bearing on having fun playing a Boon-sharing Chrono via wells ... ? If you're fun is so dependent on how other people play and act, then surely, skill changes is the least of your worries for 'fun'.

[Xstein.2187]

I can only speak for me. However, when my usefulness is sometimes almost entirely dependent on what other people do. Yes, it does suck the fun out of it.

Even if no one says anything, if you know people aren't staying in wells, you also know they aren't getting boons. Therefore, you know when you are worthless or nearly worthless. Knowing you are worthless and there is nothing you can do about it or knowing no increase in skill or practice on your part can help = no fun.

I don't think this is just a chrono thing, I don't think any classes potential should be so highly tied to the skill of other players over the skill of the individual playing the class.

 

p.s. As I have seen another mention before as well, it doesn't make sense for Anet to say "we are going to add instabilities and content that discourages stacking" and then go around making class changes that encourages stacking.

 

2nd p.s.: @"Kodama.6453" #3. If you removed the last category, the main change I would expect to see is everyone who voted for the last option, to choose the "much less fun" option instead. Therefore, you would just get a larger percentage in the "much less fun" category relative to the "much more fun" category. But yes, wording can matter. Also, yes, think it is better to discuss what in particular we think is more or less fun rather than simply if we are having more or less fun.

[Nepster.4275]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Nepster.4275" said:

> > It was hard to catch people in fractals even with the 600 range instant share, now that they actually need to stand in one place for a given time, its impossible to share any important boons on events that requies people to run around.

>

> That's the case for any AoE skill. It's not impossible because that's the way it was only a short time ago. People not having the skill to stand in a well to get a buff is a good reason to MAKE it so they have to stand in wells ... **again**. Besides, I'm starting to see some comments that make me wonder how that affects the Chrono player's fun ... people that do or don't stand in your well has zero bearing on having fun playing a Boon-sharing Chrono via wells ... ? If you're fun is so dependent on how other people play and act, then surely, skill changes is the least of your worries for 'fun'.

 

You either dont play chrono, or play it in a selfish way, because when you would start your rotation to give people boons and they do not stand in wells so they get no boons, and you look at the party UI and see that no one has boons makes you feel useless or fustrated and idk how others play but feeling useless or standing near the border of insanity isnt "fun" for me.

 

And yeah, old times, its almost the same, i mean almost the same except you cant share ANY quickness if someone missed wells, while in old times you could

if people fail = you fail = no fun

[SloRules.3560]

Why are wells a problem in pve? Can't stand still for 3s? Well that's to bad, organize better.

 

Look at WvW, where trully got useless, where noone can aford to stand still for 3s, because you just die. Even with all the coordination in the world.

[rabenpriester.7129]

> @"SloRules.3560" said:

> Why are wells a problem in pve? Can't stand still for 3s? Well that's to bad, organize better.

 

Wells aren't making the gameplay unfun because people don't stand in it - that's an age old problem (well, in earlier days ppl still got the signet boons, so it wasn't *that* bad). Not from a high skill chrono perspective. You simply stop giving a fuck when people don't stand in wells, its their own fault. Shrug it off.

 

One real problem is that you have to play the UI. You can only SoI once there are boons on your party members, your own boons tell you nothing.

 

The other big problem, and you have to actually play chrono for this on a high level so I don't expect the devs to notice this or even *gasp* fix it is that the end tick of the well gives the boons, so you run into a problem when starting a fight. Can't go into CS too fast, because phantasms don't count for the duration, have to stay in CS for a long time because you have to let the well tick out and then press SoI in CS, then get out, let the second set of wells tick out... it's just terrible, slow gameplay, followed by 20 minutes of downtime and autoattacking because you don't have anything to do.

 

It's shit.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Nepster.4275" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Nepster.4275" said:

> > > It was hard to catch people in fractals even with the 600 range instant share, now that they actually need to stand in one place for a given time, its impossible to share any important boons on events that requies people to run around.

> >

> > That's the case for any AoE skill. It's not impossible because that's the way it was only a short time ago. People not having the skill to stand in a well to get a buff is a good reason to MAKE it so they have to stand in wells ... **again**. Besides, I'm starting to see some comments that make me wonder how that affects the Chrono player's fun ... people that do or don't stand in your well has zero bearing on having fun playing a Boon-sharing Chrono via wells ... ? If you're fun is so dependent on how other people play and act, then surely, skill changes is the least of your worries for 'fun'.

>

> You either dont play chrono, or play it in a selfish way, because when you would start your rotation to give people boons and they do not stand in wells so they get no boons, and you look at the party UI and see that no one has boons makes you feel useless or fustrated and idk how others play but feeling useless or standing near the border of insanity isnt "fun" for me.

>

> And yeah, old times, its almost the same, i mean almost the same except you cant share ANY quickness if someone missed wells, while in old times you could

> if people fail = you fail = no fun

 

See, this the problem with the whole premise of the thread ... OK, getting some abilities changed isn't fun ... but neither is having your game experience trivialized by getting all buffs all the time from out of no where doing nothing to get them. It's rather stupid.

 

So when people say it's not fun to lose because scrubs can't stand in a well to get boons ... that just tells me that if you want to win and have fun, it's more important to play with skilled players than it is to have broken skills. The change moves EVERYONE towards that reality. No set of devs is going to purposely allow a situation that trivializes game content to exist. That's what you are seeing here; a fix to something that was changed because it trivialized the game. It was only months ago people were completing raids at a regular clip AND figuring out how to stand in wells to do it ... if people 'forgot' how to do that, it's not a reason to complain it's not fun with the intention of reverting that change.

 

Not fun is subjective ... and the change ISN'T only about Chrono players being affected by it. IF there is any selfish behaviour being demonstrated here, it's not by the people that support this change.

 

 

[SloRules.3560]

> @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

> > @"SloRules.3560" said:

> > Why are wells a problem in pve? Can't stand still for 3s? Well that's to bad, organize better.

>

> Wells aren't making the gameplay unfun because people don't stand in it - that's an age old problem (well, in earlier days ppl still got the signet boons, so it wasn't *that* bad). Not from a high skill chrono perspective. You simply stop giving a kitten when people don't stand in wells, its their own fault. Shrug it off.

>

> One real problem is that you have to play the UI. You can only SoI once there are boons on your party members, your own boons tell you nothing.

>

> The other big problem, and you have to actually play chrono for this on a high level so I don't expect the devs to notice this or even *gasp* fix it is that the end tick of the well gives the boons, so you run into a problem when starting a fight. Can't go into CS too fast, because phantasms don't count for the duration, have to stay in CS for a long time because you have to let the well tick out and then press SoI in CS, then get out, let the second set of wells tick out... it's just terrible, slow gameplay, followed by 20 minutes of downtime and autoattacking because you don't have anything to do.

>

> It's kitten.

>

 

Oh yea, i agree that gameplay is terrible, just never taught of it that way, as mainly a wvw mesmer.

[Nepster.4275]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Nepster.4275" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Nepster.4275" said:

> > > > It was hard to catch people in fractals even with the 600 range instant share, now that they actually need to stand in one place for a given time, its impossible to share any important boons on events that requies people to run around.

> > >

> > > That's the case for any AoE skill. It's not impossible because that's the way it was only a short time ago. People not having the skill to stand in a well to get a buff is a good reason to MAKE it so they have to stand in wells ... **again**. Besides, I'm starting to see some comments that make me wonder how that affects the Chrono player's fun ... people that do or don't stand in your well has zero bearing on having fun playing a Boon-sharing Chrono via wells ... ? If you're fun is so dependent on how other people play and act, then surely, skill changes is the least of your worries for 'fun'.

> >

> > You either dont play chrono, or play it in a selfish way, because when you would start your rotation to give people boons and they do not stand in wells so they get no boons, and you look at the party UI and see that no one has boons makes you feel useless or fustrated and idk how others play but feeling useless or standing near the border of insanity isnt "fun" for me.

> >

> > And yeah, old times, its almost the same, i mean almost the same except you cant share ANY quickness if someone missed wells, while in old times you could

> > if people fail = you fail = no fun

>

> See, this the problem with the whole premise of the thread ... OK, getting some abilities changed isn't fun ... but neither is having your game experience trivialized by getting all buffs all the time from out of no where doing nothing to get them. It's rather stupid.

>

> So when people say it's not fun to lose because scrubs can't stand in a well to get boons ... that just tells me that if you want to win and have fun, it's more important to play with skilled players than it is to have broken skills. The change moves EVERYONE towards that reality. No set of devs is going to purposely allow a situation that trivializes game content to exist. That's what you are seeing here; a fix to something that was changed because it trivialized the game. It was only months ago people were completing raids at a regular clip AND figuring out how to stand in wells to do it ... if people 'forgot' how to do that, it's not a reason to complain it's not fun with the intention of reverting that change.

>

> Not fun is subjective ... and the change ISN'T only about Chrono players being affected by it. IF there is any selfish behaviour being demonstrated here, it's not by the people that support this change.

>

>

 

You understood me wrong, i have no problem with the amout of boon that we share now, i even agreed when anyone said that 11 boon and especially close to permanent resistance was broken. I have problems on HOW we share now, i never wanted chrono to share all the boons in the game, and i think most chrono players agree on this, but the way we share it now, is just no practical to any %.

And playing with skilled players in PUGs is kinda rare. It even happened today that i needed to do a mechanic in fractals and when i go back to my group the downtime on my boons was like really bad, i didnt got boons for like 15 seconds, and yeah maybe 15 seconds is a small time, but in 15 seconds you kill/phase most of the stuff

 

In WvW this is more worse, and i understand people being disappointed about the changes to WvW Support chrono.

[rabenpriester.7129]

> @"SloRules.3560" said:

>

> Oh yea, i agree that gameplay is terrible, just never taught of it that way, as mainly a wvw mesmer.

 

No worries, that's why I'm here to explain. I've just amassed so much chrono experience over the years in PvE, it's kinda hard to get the point across to people who never touched it or played it in some iterations (Mimic SoI, distortion share, Subsquadhopping). People who stopped playing the class understand, because they know that it feels so incredibly bad now.

 

I don't even wanna think about Chrono in WvW atm though, not in Zergs. It hurts to just imagine that.

 

Anyways, thanks for actually reading through my post and thinking about it. Not everyone does that, as you can clearly see in this thread and the responses.

[Phoebe Ascension.8437]

It already was the hardest class to find in lfg (fractals, raids) and it's even worse now. For me this was the last straw, as a main renegade/holosmith, alt druid/chrono/banner warrior), i could adapt all the nerf, they were all not fun, but still doable. This one however is disaster^disasters^disastrous. The compensations were VERY bad (especially for 5 limit player instance fractal CM), chrono off duties are now also worse (bling, portal 2x instead of 3), CC worse, etc. Last years since PoF was surprisingly ok from gw2, lots of good and logic stuff, some debatable, but not disastrous, some things, not cool, but there were ways around it. This however is wrong on every level. Push to other class? didnt work. Remove quickness meta? didnt work and can't work ever (as raids are balanced aroudn perma having it). Dps meterS? almost useless these days as you cant mimic a 50% alacrity/quickness uptime (and ppl rely insanely bad on dps meters, golem testing). Give chrono (other then raid tanking) a good job on fractals, no. Yes it's still the most used 'support' slot next to druid, but man does it perform overal very bad. But more to the point, there is a SHORTAGE of chrono's, and then you do this. You think this is gonna save the game? If you don't fix this soon anet, it will be like pvp, all good players perma leave. I already see it now, much less CM frac lfg then in the past.

 

Ps getting all boons was op. But this is NOT the way to fix it. Tuning Chaos a bit was. But ofc anet didnt. However perma quickness/alacrity (especially since earlier nerfs) is not op. It's hard to pull off, requires a good chrono, requires good timing/movement, and the game is balanced around it, removing it now, would need +30-100% base dps (without quickness and alacrity) on classes. You double nerved lava font remember? That skill is not super bad except with alacrity. Point proven, so either alacrity stays, or lava font is buffed like old.

 

PPS nerf aren't cool. Like i think condi soulbeast was nerfed to much. But i'm already playing something else now anet, good thing i'm resourceful on ascended chests. Doesn't hurt me much. But this mesmer change is not even making me mad, it's making me completely confused and not understanding why you did it. Sometimes there are wonky (but in a way understanable) reasons to do it. This time there is 0, zero imo). Imo it's like removing all waypoints from gw2. Sure we have mounts... but it's wrong in so many ways you can't even cope it, not gonna list them either. Get the point, maybe Anet?

[Jeknar.6184]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> Since I don't play Chronomancer, I won't participate in the poll, but I just wanted to point out that the results here should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Just like anything on these forums tbh...

[polvere.2805]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Exactly ... ask warriors how 'fun' it is to be a banner slave all the time.

 

Actually playing BS is a lot of fun. in particular power BS. It's obvious that you get bored of playing the same class over and over and over. But at least when you pick it sometimes it's fun. I have a BS.

 

Chrono right now is painful to play in pve. The rotation is clunky and you don't feel like you have control over what boons are you giving and how well you are mantaining it.

The nerf was needed. Not like this tho.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"polvere.2805" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Exactly ... ask warriors how 'fun' it is to be a banner slave all the time.

>

> Actually playing BS is a lot of fun. in particular power BS. It's obvious that you get bored of playing the same class over and over and over. But at least when you pick it sometimes it's fun. I have a BS.

>

> Chrono right now is painful to play in pve. The rotation is clunky and you don't feel like you have control over what boons are you giving and how well you are mantaining it.

> The nerf was needed. Not like this tho.

>

 

My point was and has been ... fun is subjective and as you actually point out, having no options is eventually not fun or it's not fun always. That's what Chrono was and what teaming a Chrono was like.

[rabenpriester.7129]

I think you've made your point clear by now, repeating it again and again and again won't convince anyone of your views.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

> I think you've made your point clear by now, repeating it again and again and again won't convince anyone of your views.

 

Hey, I'm replying to someone and now you are being rude. No need for that. I mean ... the whole purpose of this thread is to get people repeating the same view of unfun nerfs through a poll ... so it's OK for repeating again and again there at that scale ... but it's not OK for me to reply to someone? Get over yourself.