kiranslee.4829 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @Caedmon.6798 said: > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > > > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > > > > > > @Mutaatti.2789 said: > > > > > > > > > > @Hitman.5829 said: > > > > > > > > > > People need to stop whining and learn to play! Full counter is perfectly fine; in the worst case scenario, full counter is a useless skill when fighting 1 vs 1 or range individuals (which is most of them). Full counter is finally the skill that warrior needed for WvW and PvP. Stop complaining because you are getting owned and learn to play! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One can make the argument that full counter is a mediocre skill on 1 vs 1 because of this: > > > > > > > > > > 1. - It activates only if you attack the warrior, and the animation is extremely obvious. > > > > > > > > > > 2. If the warrior has quickness, then the skill has a cast time of 1/2 the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, what i have noticed in PvE is that the mobs have very slow attack reaction times that full counter is often missed because they simply don't hit the kitten skill. > > > > > > > > > > Be patient and don't spam your kitten skills like a zombie 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,f1,f2,f3,f4,f5. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a learn to play issue and not a balance issue! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have fought many spell-breakers and I know when they will be using their full counter so I simply walk away because they cannot attack me while they are using full counter. Use your brain, learn to play, and stop whining because you are getting owned for spamming your skills like a zombie! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well please tell me then if you know, how to not trigger FC as a mesmer? Or ranger? Or minionmaster necro? Or symbol guardian? Ihave not seen any advice how to 1v1 spellbreaker as any of these classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Full Counter is a mechanic, just like any other mechanic. How do I avoid getting shattered by a memser? Or nuked at range by a ranger? Or getting condi-bombed by a necro? Or getting pulled into guardian traps? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol. You didn't answer my question. Afraid of telling people how to crush your class? Or afraid to tell everyone it's impossible? Everyone knows how to counter those classes. I'm asking how to counter spellbreaker if you play any of classes you adressed. > > > > > > > > > > > > How to counter Full Counter: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Attack Full Counter from out of range. > > > > > > 2. Attack Full Counter then Evade or Block or go Immune. > > > > > > 3. Wait out Full Counter, then attack. > > > > > > 4. Attack Full Counter and get hit by it, but don't cast so the Daze doesn't interrupt you. > > > > > > > > > > > > If Full Counter doesn't hit, Spellbreaker gets no benefits. > > > > > > > > > > But mesmer illusions can proc FC, ranger pet can do it if not careful, necro minions and guardian symbols can proc it. And you can dodge. 2 times. How about third time, when you dont have dodge? Because you cant kill good SB in less than 24 secs. Or even mediocre. > > > > > > > > **But mesmer illusions can proc FC, ranger pet can do it if not careful, necro minions and guardian symbols can proc it. ** You can use all those to your advantage to proc Full Counter when you are not in range, or realize Full Counter is coming and evade or get out of range with a movement skill. > > > > > > > > All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you. > > > > > > > > I dumpster on other Spellbreakers all the time, killing them in less than 24 seconds. > > > > > > Well... Except all of them doesnt work > > > .. Like ranger sword #2... It hits, starts animation to evade, gets interrupted. Some are too fast. Like ranger dagger #4. It rolls so fast around spellbreaker and evade isnt long enough to dodge FC... And no. You CAN'T get out of range against warrior closer than 1000. Okay mesmer can if he has portal ready. Or you run away. That aint no kiting. Thats surrendering. > > > > This is utterly false, > > A mesmer has many ways to get out of range of a warrior and actually has an easier time proccing FC at range since you can force detargat and camp out away from your clones > > A mesmer has > > BLink > > Illusionary ambush > > stealth > > distortion > > mirage thrust > > blurred frenzy > > jaunt > > > > and for the querky people running Axe > > axes of symmetry > > in 1v1, a mirage has a decent skill set to deal with a spellbreaker, it becomes a game of who outplays who. > > The problem becomes when you are 2 v 1 and their are two spell breakers, though 2 v 1 against any competent player should result in your loss > > You may also want to look up some of the mesmers on twitch and watch them play mirage as well. > > > > This ^ My mesm buddy is perfectly able to outbait my counter and make proper use of his invulns/evade/porting to outkite me and ignore counter,the only time counter does hit is mostly because of an illusion activating it. What you guys said, countering FC is l2p issue. All the QQers here complain manly coz they do not wish to adapt to change and learn to counter it. A bit skilled player who knows how Sb class work should adapt to change and even gain from it. Most SBs now in wvw or pvp relay on ppl failing to think. I also notice one major complain that is like , "im skilled player and i attack SB and then some noob comes and keep trigger FC". I would say this, if you are skilled player , why are you near war using Fc anyway , and 2nd , get some ballz and stop trying to ganbang SB :). In any case, Sb and especially FC is not so hard to counter just need change of mindset , aka, war is not free kill anymore. 2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWI.4127 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 I have noticed people adapting lately. People not mindlessly triggering my counters every time anymore. Not to say that it's completely balanced as is, but people are adjusting already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiranslee.4829 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @SWI.4127 said: > I have noticed people adapting lately. People not mindlessly triggering my counters every time anymore. Not to say that it's completely balanced as is, but people are adjusting already. what most silly is , SBs are confused now , they still spam counter any time its on cd, and when it doesnt work they stand there confused or run. Its funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @Choppy.4183 said: > > @Alchimist.4738 said: > > It’s a sweat thing to say don’t attack while the Full Counter is active, but if I used an AoE just before the Spellbreaker uses its Full Counter, then I’ll have no control over the situation, same if you’re using a pet or minions, try to tell them not to attack just for fun. > > Yeah you do, you dodge. I do it all the time, whether I've decided to pop an opponent's FC, I do it accidentally, or a minion/ally does it. If you're paying attention, it's not that hard. If you have additional evades or ports, then you have even more tools to work with. And, in case you're wondering, I don't play Spellbreaker myself. > > If you fail to dodge, then you're going to eat a mid-high level hit that's not at the top of what's flying around out there. Unless the Spellbreaker is loaded with condis and traited to copy them back on you, in which case, try harder to dodge next time if you can't keep FC from getting triggered. This is not a good counter argument. Sure, the attack is extremely easy to dodge after it activates - in 1v1's. You know its coming immediately after you see "0" damage and EP hasn't been popped. But if you do not have vigor, your dodge is going to take 10 seconds to recharge. FC has a cooldown of 8s. I'd be happy if my opponents saved their dodges for _only_ my FC. That means I'd land an overwhelming majority of my Bull's Charge and Shield Bash. Nor is it a good counter argument to say "don't attack." You don't decide whether or not to pop my FC, _I_ decide if you are going to pop it. FC does not have a tell if someone is attacking me, in 1v1s I probably have a 95% success rate when using FC - not necessarily meaning they always land, but they most certainly almost always activate. It seemingly only doesn't activate if the attack I see coming whiffs (player blinded, incoming attack doesn't connect due to slightly out of melee range, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choppy.4183 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 > @Turk.5460 said: > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > @Alchimist.4738 said: > > > It’s a sweat thing to say don’t attack while the Full Counter is active, but if I used an AoE just before the Spellbreaker uses its Full Counter, then I’ll have no control over the situation, same if you’re using a pet or minions, try to tell them not to attack just for fun. > > > > Yeah you do, you dodge. I do it all the time, whether I've decided to pop an opponent's FC, I do it accidentally, or a minion/ally does it. If you're paying attention, it's not that hard. If you have additional evades or ports, then you have even more tools to work with. And, in case you're wondering, I don't play Spellbreaker myself. > > > > If you fail to dodge, then you're going to eat a mid-high level hit that's not at the top of what's flying around out there. Unless the Spellbreaker is loaded with condis and traited to copy them back on you, in which case, try harder to dodge next time if you can't keep FC from getting triggered. > > This is not a good counter argument. Sure, the attack is extremely easy to dodge after it activates - in 1v1's. You know its coming immediately after you see "0" damage and EP hasn't been popped. But if you do not have vigor, your dodge is going to take 10 seconds to recharge. FC has a cooldown of 8s. I'd be happy if my opponents saved their dodges for _only_ my FC. That means I'd land an overwhelming majority of my Bull's Charge and Shield Bash. Nor is it a good counter argument to say "don't attack." You don't decide whether or not to pop my FC, _I_ decide if you are going to pop it. FC does not have a tell if someone is attacking me, in 1v1s I probably have a 95% success rate when using FC - not necessarily meaning they always land, but they most certainly almost always activate. It seemingly only doesn't activate if the attack I see coming whiffs (player blinded, incoming attack doesn't connect due to slightly out of melee range, etc.) The tell is a giant golden bubble popping up and then disappearing, which you can see whether or not you're the one to pop the bubble. You can also keep range, if not full range, back far enough to move in only when you're ready to attack... playing a bit like a thief, which I know you also play. If you actually have a range weapon, use it. People can choose to save their dodges, if they want, or they can treat it like any of the many other attacks coming at them. Everyone doesn't walk around with blocks, and those who do have to use them judiciously. True Shot is one of many large hits that a DH can kick out... do you hold your dodge in the hopes that they'll use it? Sometimes. Other times you take other steps, and sometimes you eat it. Same with FC, the difference is FC is unblockable and TS is ranged. Defend accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 > @Choppy.4183 said: > > @Turk.5460 said: > > > @Choppy.4183 said: > > > > @Alchimist.4738 said: > > > > It’s a sweat thing to say don’t attack while the Full Counter is active, but if I used an AoE just before the Spellbreaker uses its Full Counter, then I’ll have no control over the situation, same if you’re using a pet or minions, try to tell them not to attack just for fun. > > > > > > Yeah you do, you dodge. I do it all the time, whether I've decided to pop an opponent's FC, I do it accidentally, or a minion/ally does it. If you're paying attention, it's not that hard. If you have additional evades or ports, then you have even more tools to work with. And, in case you're wondering, I don't play Spellbreaker myself. > > > > > > If you fail to dodge, then you're going to eat a mid-high level hit that's not at the top of what's flying around out there. Unless the Spellbreaker is loaded with condis and traited to copy them back on you, in which case, try harder to dodge next time if you can't keep FC from getting triggered. > > > > This is not a good counter argument. Sure, the attack is extremely easy to dodge after it activates - in 1v1's. You know its coming immediately after you see "0" damage and EP hasn't been popped. But if you do not have vigor, your dodge is going to take 10 seconds to recharge. FC has a cooldown of 8s. I'd be happy if my opponents saved their dodges for _only_ my FC. That means I'd land an overwhelming majority of my Bull's Charge and Shield Bash. Nor is it a good counter argument to say "don't attack." You don't decide whether or not to pop my FC, _I_ decide if you are going to pop it. FC does not have a tell if someone is attacking me, in 1v1s I probably have a 95% success rate when using FC - not necessarily meaning they always land, but they most certainly almost always activate. It seemingly only doesn't activate if the attack I see coming whiffs (player blinded, incoming attack doesn't connect due to slightly out of melee range, etc.) > > The tell is a giant golden bubble popping up and then disappearing, which you can see whether or not you're the one to pop the bubble. You can also keep range, if not full range, back far enough to move in only when you're ready to attack... playing a bit like a thief, which I know you also play. If you actually have a range weapon, use it. > > People can choose to save their dodges, if they want, or they can treat it like any of the many other attacks coming at them. Everyone doesn't walk around with blocks, and those who do have to use them judiciously. True Shot is one of many large hits that a DH can kick out... do you hold your dodge in the hopes that they'll use it? Sometimes. Other times you take other steps, and sometimes you eat it. Same with FC, the difference is FC is unblockable and TS is ranged. Defend accordingly. People seem to either forget or not realize that the counter-strike for FC comes out 0.25s after you absorb/block an attack. Considering the time input latency, this means **the counter-strike comes out faster than human reaction time**. For the novice SB, you can still easily outplay them and avoid FC every time (by either weapon-stow, or dodging after triggering) since they'll often use it on cooldown or simply use it against you when in range. You can see the animation and very easily stop your attacks or have time to dodge. For a warrior who is worth their salt, they will hit you with FC nearly every time. The difference is nearly night and day for me when I fight against an excellent SB. They not only try to time FC to start as I'm in the middle of an attack animation, but they'll often times learn which skills have high enough ending lag (such as sword 2 or GS 3 when I play guard) such that if they pop FC when my skill is underway, there is no possible way for me to dodge in time due to the recovery frames of the skill (before dodge is possible again) + how fast FC comes out. After spending a few dozen hours playing against SB in sPvP and in duels, I think FC could receive some very modest nerfs, continue to dominate against mindless faceroll/spam, satiate players who care to learn how to counterplay it and still keep SB viable. IMO, the most realistic nerfs that would meet the above criteria are as follows: * Nerf damage bonus on Revenge Counter to +10% (down from +20%). * Only award resistance from Revenge Counter if at least 1 target is struck (pets and clones included). * Decrease the range of FC to 240 (down from 300). * Increase the "cast time" of the counter-strike portion of FC to 0.4-0.5s (up from 0.25s) after blocking/absorbing a strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWI.4127 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > * Nerf damage bonus on Revenge Counter to +10% (down from +20%). > * Only award resistance from Revenge Counter if at least 1 target is struck (pets and clones included). > * Decrease the range of FC to 240 (down from 300). > * Increase the "cast time" of the counter-strike portion of FC to 0.4-0.5s (up from 0.25s) after blocking/absorbing a strike. > Those are some pretty reasonable balance options. Good to see you have come around from your earlier posts where you wanted much harsher balance lol. I do appreciate the fact you're willing to listen to Warrior players and change your mind or look at it from another perspective. As opposed to some other people who come here to vent about how they lost some PvP games and the spec should be completely gutted because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choppy.4183 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > After spending a few dozen hours playing against SB in sPvP and in duels, I think FC could receive some very modest nerfs, continue to dominate against mindless faceroll/spam, satiate players who care to learn how to counterplay it and still keep SB viable. IMO, the most realistic nerfs that would meet the above criteria are as follows: > > * Nerf damage bonus on Revenge Counter to +10% (down from +20%). > * Only award resistance from Revenge Counter if at least 1 target is struck (pets and clones included). > * Decrease the range of FC to 240 (down from 300). > * Increase the "cast time" of the counter-strike portion of FC to 0.4-0.5s (up from 0.25s) after blocking/absorbing a strike. Those are all plenty reasonable for the reasons you mentioned. Your suggestions certainly aren't extreme or pandering to people who refuse to adapt. Though I'm still having zero problem dealing with Spellbreakers in melee (DH and Berserker are/were much worse, but still not OP), I see no reason for anyone to fight what you've proposed. If it makes things more fun for people overall, then it's good for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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