What is wrong with dagger/dagger?

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

I noticed a lot of Soulbeast rangers shun dagger/dagger, but why is that?

[anduriell.6280]

> @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> I noticed a lot of Soulbeast rangers shun dagger/dagger, but why is that?

Bad in pve, bad in pvp

[Prophet.1584]

main hand dagger has low power dmg compared to sword, it would be better. offhand dagger is more utility than dps for the evade and cripple, torch or axe would be better choices depending on what your build is.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

> @"anduriell.6280" said:

> > @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> > I noticed a lot of Soulbeast rangers shun dagger/dagger, but why is that?

> Bad in pve, bad in pvp

 

I read some older posts about it after I made this op. And the consensus seems to be that it should have a higher power damage coefficient. I can see that since the condi application isn’t that great either. And the elite spec itself seems more power or even hybrid oriented. I think a higher power coefficient would help dagger main hand go a long way.

 

> @"Prophet.1584" said:

> main hand dagger has low power dmg compared to sword, it would be better. offhand dagger is more utility than dps for the evade and cripple, torch or axe would be better choices depending on what your build is.

 

See above. Also read where off hand needs some help too. Some suggested making dagger 5 have an ammo system. That would be great!! I also think dagger 4 needs a cd reduction.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Here’s the post I was referring too above:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/568/daggers-need-redo-and-backstab

[Eleazar.9478]

DID SOMEONE SAY DAGGER? OH BOY!

 

well for pve its fine ona power build lol since its a solid damage over time which is what you need for high health npcs (off hand dagger does no damage so it makes sense to run axe or torch depending on condi or power)

 

FOR PVP, you need at least 2 maybe all 3 things Burst, Utility, and cleave

dagger does none of these well, it has mid to poor mobility, no CC, and due to the forth auto chain very low burst potential. on top of being melee with zero cleave! there have been loads of posts about it over the year I've actually seen some really good discussion around it and some dudes came up with interesting fixes) and Im convinced Anet does check up on the ranger posts or does not want daggers to be utilized. While dagger has revived buffs its been pretty big percentages and that goes to show you just how weakly it was designed in the first place.

 

my wish-list for dagger

 

1) make the skill 2 a extremely short cc really just there for an interupt, 1 so daggers could actually proc twice as vicious (a minor soulbeast trait) and two so they would be able to get up an brawl in pvp (to counter bursts and such)

 

2) get rid of the 1st auto chain, why just one vuln with a no condi pressure and almost no power, not only does the dagger swing slowly your first hit is nearly useless in a bursty environment where you have to time your hits between blocks, cc, aoes, Iframes out the ass, you already loose your chance to dps

 

3) make the short hop on skill 3 a millisecond evade (once again in its dangerous already to melee with all the aoes and cleave) every other ranger weapon has a defensive component to it

 

4) give the ammo system to off hand dagger and boom it becomes extremely good

 

COME ON ANET ITS BEEN A YEAR ID LIKE A REASON TO RUN MY ELITE SPEC WEAPON.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

> @"Eleazar.9478" said:

> DID SOMEONE SAY DAGGER? OH BOY!

>

> well for pve its fine ona power build lol since its a solid damage over time which is what you need for high health npcs (off hand dagger does no damage so it makes sense to run axe or torch depending on condi or power)

>

> FOR PVP, you need at least 2 maybe all 3 things Burst, Utility, and cleave

> dagger does none of these well, it has mid to poor mobility, no CC, and due to the forth auto chain very low burst potential. on top of being melee with zero cleave! there have been loads of posts about it over the year I've actually seen some really good discussion around it and some dudes came up with interesting fixes) and Im convinced Anet does check up on the ranger posts or does not want daggers to be utilized. While dagger has revived buffs its been pretty big percentages and that goes to show you just how weakly it was designed in the first place.

>

> my wish-list for dagger

>

> 1) make the skill 2 a extremely short cc really just there for an interupt, 1 so daggers could actually proc twice as vicious (a minor soulbeast trait) and two so they would be able to get up an brawl in pvp (to counter bursts and such)

>

> 2) get rid of the 1st auto chain, why just one vuln with a no condi pressure and almost no power, not only does the dagger swing slowly your first hit is nearly useless in a bursty environment where you have to time your hits between blocks, cc, aoes, Iframes out the kitten, you already loose your chance to dps

>

> 3) make the short hop on skill 3 a millisecond evade (once again in its dangerous already to melee with all the aoes and cleave) every other ranger weapon has a defensive component to it

>

> 4) give the ammo system to off hand dagger and boom it becomes extremely good

>

> COME ON ANET ITS BEEN A YEAR ID LIKE A REASON TO RUN MY ELITE SPEC WEAPON.

 

I like how dagger auto has a four chain and not just a three. I don’t think that needs to be removed and feel that would ruin the flavor of the weapon if it was gone. It’s one of the reasons I actually like dagger main hand. I do think it needs a damage increase though or at the very least a poison application on the first hit. Also, I think dagger 3 was intended to be used to speed up dagger 1 auto chain. This interaction doesn’t need to go away.

 

The rest of your suggestions, I can definitely agree with.

[Eurantien.4632]

This isn't saying much because for PvP a lot of builds that aren't good can be plat tier if you know how to play. So it is kind of a low bar. That being said, d/d condi soulbeast is a decent duelist vs certain things. Unfortunately, it is very immobile and although it can win points vs a lot of things, it can't fight off node efficiently.

[InsaneQR.7412]

The second part of dagger/dagger.

MH is not bad, just lacks utility. Oh is just outmatched by everything else.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Buffing off hand would be a nice change to it, and would help core.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> Buffing off hand would be a nice change to it, and would help core.

 

This.

 

MH could only need an evade on 3.

OH needs a real rework.

[anduriell.6280]

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> > Buffing off hand would be a nice change to it, and would help core.

>

> This.

>

> MH could only need an evade on 3.

> OH needs a real rework.

 

and dagger#2?

[Krispera.5087]

MH Dagger has no evade and a bad gap closer. Sword can poison, leap and evade. Condis from SBow are better. No point to take MH Dagger or Daggers over them. In fact, Ranger has bad condi OHs (Dagger and Torch). Crippling Talon and Throw Torch should get 4 charges to even make them interesting enough. If Guardian's Spirit Weapon can get 3 and 4 charges (traited), so should Ranger weak useless weapon skills.

 

Never felt Dagger was fit for SBeast, it should have been Hammer.

 

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"anduriell.6280" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> > > Buffing off hand would be a nice change to it, and would help core.

> >

> > This.

> >

> > MH could only need an evade on 3.

> > OH needs a real rework.

>

> and dagger#2?

 

Dagger 2 is lame and just dmg focussed but its not that bad of a skill as 4 and 5.

 

To keep the minimal invasive approach 2 can stay as is.

IMO it should be something different but i can live with no change to it.

Dying mid air during 3 is way worse.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Krispera.5087" said:

> MH Dagger has no evade and a bad gap closer. Sword can poison, leap and evade. Condis from SBow are better. No point to take MH Dagger or Daggers over them. In fact, Ranger has bad condi OHs (Dagger and Torch). Crippling Talon and Throw Torch should get 4 charges to even make them interesting enough. If Guardian's Spirit Weapon can get 3 and 4 charges (traited), so should Ranger weak useless weapon skills.

>

> Never felt Dagger was fit for SBeast, it should have been Hammer.

>

 

I agree with most of this with the exception of the hammer. I always felt that hammers should be left to the more tankier, heavy armor classes.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > @"anduriell.6280" said:

> > > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > > @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> > > > Buffing off hand would be a nice change to it, and would help core.

> > >

> > > This.

> > >

> > > MH could only need an evade on 3.

> > > OH needs a real rework.

> >

> > and dagger#2?

>

> Dagger 2 is lame and just dmg focussed but its not that bad of a skill as 4 and 5.

>

> To keep the minimal invasive approach 2 can stay as is.

> IMO it should be something different but i can live with no change to it.

> Dying mid air during 3 is way worse.

 

Dagger 2 is ok. It just feels like it’s missing something, hate to harp on buffing damage, but for the wind up and cd cost, it just doesn’t do enough. Maybe add another condi to the application like confusion? As for dagger 3, evade would be fitting, but also think it needs a bit more to the leaping range to help it connect better.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > @"anduriell.6280" said:

> > > > @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > > > > @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> > > > > Buffing off hand would be a nice change to it, and would help core.

> > > >

> > > > This.

> > > >

> > > > MH could only need an evade on 3.

> > > > OH needs a real rework.

> > >

> > > and dagger#2?

> >

> > Dagger 2 is lame and just dmg focussed but its not that bad of a skill as 4 and 5.

> >

> > To keep the minimal invasive approach 2 can stay as is.

> > IMO it should be something different but i can live with no change to it.

> > Dying mid air during 3 is way worse.

>

> Dagger 2 is ok. It just feels like it’s missing something, hate to harp on buffing damage, but for the wind up and cd cost, it just doesn’t do enough. Maybe add another condi to the application like confusion? As for dagger 3, evade would be fitting, but also think it needs a bit more to the leaping range to help it connect better.

 

Personally i think they should replace the initial bleed with poison and the poison from the pet with a daze.

Thus you get atleast a twice as viciois bonus when merged and you get more life gain from predators cunning.

[Biff.5312]

I approach this with a different perspective than most. Usually people are concerned with what weapon/build combos are 'best'. However, I have so many alts (enough to try various builds of each prof) that I'm more concerned with whether I find the mechanics fun to play. I'm totally going to try d/d in the coming couple of weeks. If I find it simply no fun to play, I won't use it, but for me it doesn't matter if this provides for maximum dps or even the most utility - only whether it allows for a play style that's fun.

[InsaneQR.7412]

> @"Biff.5312" said:

> I approach this with a different perspective than most. Usually people are concerned with what weapon/build combos are 'best'. However, I have so many alts (enough to try various builds of each prof) that I'm more concerned with whether I find the mechanics fun to play. I'm totally going to try d/d in the coming couple of weeks. If I find it simply no fun to play, I won't use it, but for me it doesn't matter if this provides for maximum dps or even the most utility - only whether it allows for a play style that's fun.

 

Thats basically the reason why i said that OH and dagger 2 need improvements.

Dagger 2 lacks actual impact, it just feels fluffy and not strong.

Dagger OH has the same problem as dagger 2. It lacks impact. The evade is short and the dmg is garbage. Crippling talon is just meh. Its a one time snare that can be cleansed off in an instant.

If crippling talon is an on target shadowstep and hunters strike has and additional chain part to it, would give it some new utility it desperately needs.

 

I would even go that far that i would switch some skills arround with sword.

So sword has monarchsleap as sword 2 and hornet sting is dagger 4.

Sword 3 is now a chain of serpent and hunters strike.

Both weapons would be fabtastic this way.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Biff.5312" said:

> I approach this with a different perspective than most. Usually people are concerned with what weapon/build combos are 'best'. However, I have so many alts (enough to try various builds of each prof) that I'm more concerned with whether I find the mechanics fun to play. I'm totally going to try d/d in the coming couple of weeks. If I find it simply no fun to play, I won't use it, but for me it doesn't matter if this provides for maximum dps or even the most utility - only whether it allows for a play style that's fun.

 

I just happened upon this thread last week and did exactly this. I switched to d/d and changed some traits and gave it a go. At the end of the day, I simply didn't find it as entertaining as other options. I've switched back.

[Biff.5312]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> I just happened upon this thread last week and did exactly this. I switched to d/d and changed some traits and gave it a go. At the end of the day, I simply didn't find it as entertaining as other options. I've switched back.

 

Having experimented briefly I tend to agree, although I've disliked most new arrangements until I've used them for a bit (I hated holo at first and now I love it, for example), so I'm going to stick with this for a day or two and re-assess.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

My problem is that I find the dagger 1 and 2 boring!

I messed with D/D in PvP a while back and tried to get decent sustain from predators cunning. Sage amulet + rune of the earth bumped the life steal up to 196 per stack of poison. That's actually not too bad if MH dagger stacked decent amounts of poison. If dagger 2 was 6 stacks of poison instead of bleed. That'd be a ~1.2k heal every 6 seconds. I'd be ok losing the poison on dagger auto in exchange. That alone would give Dagger 2 some kind of identity as a sustain and poison burst skill in PvP so that there is a reason to cast it but also not to cast it depending on the timing. Right now, it just feels like the 5th skill of the auto attack chain.

 

On top of that, it's THE soul beast weapon. It should have a more creative buff to your next pets attack or do away with it entirely. Dagger 2 and 3 could change functionality depending on merge status.

Unmerged:

D2: You and your pet bleed.

D3: Quickness leap. Keep EoS, NM and FR synergy

Merged:

D2: 6 stacks of poison

D3: Daze leap.

More of a feral burst when merged that can proc TaV. Unmerged keeps the pet synergy going.

 

OH Dagger for PvP was actually meta for a while across multiple builds. Unblockable on WH and buffs to axe have reduced OH dagger's popularity but core functionality is mostly OK. If I were to change OH dagger, it would be an entire rework to skirmishing in combo with short bow, sword and dagger. I don't think short bow should be the "back stab" weapon when it has no skill that lets you flank. Sword 3/Dagger 4 as flanking skills should have some kind of bonus for flanking strikes. 10% crit is not the way to go here. Either build flanking bonuses into the skill or a reworked hunter's tactics and LoyF that buffs flanking in general.

[Kain Francois.4328]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> If I were to change OH dagger, it would be an entire rework to skirmishing in combo with short bow, sword and dagger. I don't think short bow should be the "back stab" weapon when it has no skill that lets you flank. Sword 3/Dagger 4 as flanking skills should have some kind of bonus for flanking strikes. 10% crit is not the way to go here. Either build flanking bonuses into the skill or a reworked hunter's tactics and LoyF that buffs flanking in general.

 

 

Holy kittens. I really like where this is going.

 

What if OH Dagger literally had Backstab to replace its #4 skill? They could even repurpose OH Dagger to be our highest dps Power weapon.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"Kain Francois.4328" said:

> > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > If I were to change OH dagger, it would be an entire rework to skirmishing in combo with short bow, sword and dagger. I don't think short bow should be the "back stab" weapon when it has no skill that lets you flank. Sword 3/Dagger 4 as flanking skills should have some kind of bonus for flanking strikes. 10% crit is not the way to go here. Either build flanking bonuses into the skill or a reworked hunter's tactics and LoyF that buffs flanking in general.

>

>

> Holy kittens. I really like where this is going.

>

> What if OH Dagger literally had Backstab to replace its #4 skill? They could even repurpose OH Dagger to be our highest dps Power weapon.

 

WH and Axe are already decent OH power weapons. Dagger and torch are condi. Condi ranger builds for PvP are already rough to play. Taking dagger away from that is a no go.

 

I'm talking more about double/triple the poison stacks of dagger 4 if you hit while flanking. Give dagger 5 ammo. Bonus immob on sword 3 while flanking. Change short bow to do the same damage regardless of flanking or make shortbow 3 a flanking skill like sword 3 or dagger 4. LoyF does bonus bleed/torment stacks (regardless of weapon) when you hit someone from behind 2 second ICD.

[Orion Templar.4589]

For me to use a weapon regularly it needs to be either fun or effective - preferably both. I find SB MH dagger to be neither. There have been some good suggestions made in some of the posts above on how this could be rectified. It will be interesting to see if any of those ideas ever get implemented.