Megametzler.5729 Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > @"Cicada.6298" said: > > > > @"Stallic.2397" said: > > > > > @"Cicada.6298" said: > > > > > so, as a returning player who is ultra-casual these days, and having never played Mesmer at all (never even created one), I decided to see what the fuss is about. > > > > > > > > > > Made one an hour ago, jumped into pvp with the metabattle build and proceeded to press whatever cooldown was up; not far off from (literally) face rolling my keyboard, and won 3 matches -- the fact that _anyone_ died to that probably signals there's a problem. > > > > > > > > Same here. I usually play Chrono if I'm playing mesmer, but I decided to try the Meta condi mirage for once, last night. Dominated each fight. Easily +1'd. If I was having an issue, I just stealthed or teleported away. Getting focused? Dodge, invuln'd or lost targeting on axe skill 3. I never knew how carefree sPvp could be until playing as mirage. haha! > > > > > > while I understand _(at least from the tone of this thread)_ there isn't much representation for Mesmer in the highest/elite ranks, (...) > > > > I know you inserted those little brackets, but I just wanted to point out that that seems to be more of an illusionary fact. :wink: The only actual data we have is what @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" posted: 14% for 1400+ which is significantly _more_ than should be (11% per class). > > > > You would need more data to understand if 14% was "significantly more than it should be". Generally speaking if it was less than 1 standard deviation I wouldn't call it significant and most institutes require it be over 2 standard deviations to be statistically significant, though with low numbers of classes 1 SD would be significant enough. > > 11% is a hypothetical ideal, it is not the mean nor is it something I would worry about classes deviating from by a few percentiles in a season. Now if it was 20% to 40% that would mean nearly every game has anywhere between 2 and 4 of that class....like back when scourge would face roll you to platinum. > > Yes there needs to be some adjustments with mirage, I have made numerous posts detailing what I would do and it's mostly around toning down the conditions output and removing the torment in favour of something slower to build up. I admit, the use of the word "significantly" was imperfect here. I did not mean the statistical term. :tongue: I though that was obvious, because I didn't introduce a significance level for the test. We need the number of people in 1400+... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > @"Cicada.6298" said: > > > > > @"Stallic.2397" said: > > > > > > @"Cicada.6298" said: > > > > > > so, as a returning player who is ultra-casual these days, and having never played Mesmer at all (never even created one), I decided to see what the fuss is about. > > > > > > > > > > > > Made one an hour ago, jumped into pvp with the metabattle build and proceeded to press whatever cooldown was up; not far off from (literally) face rolling my keyboard, and won 3 matches -- the fact that _anyone_ died to that probably signals there's a problem. > > > > > > > > > > Same here. I usually play Chrono if I'm playing mesmer, but I decided to try the Meta condi mirage for once, last night. Dominated each fight. Easily +1'd. If I was having an issue, I just stealthed or teleported away. Getting focused? Dodge, invuln'd or lost targeting on axe skill 3. I never knew how carefree sPvp could be until playing as mirage. haha! > > > > > > > > while I understand _(at least from the tone of this thread)_ there isn't much representation for Mesmer in the highest/elite ranks, (...) > > > > > > I know you inserted those little brackets, but I just wanted to point out that that seems to be more of an illusionary fact. :wink: The only actual data we have is what @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" posted: 14% for 1400+ which is significantly _more_ than should be (11% per class). > > > > > > > You would need more data to understand if 14% was "significantly more than it should be". Generally speaking if it was less than 1 standard deviation I wouldn't call it significant and most institutes require it be over 2 standard deviations to be statistically significant, though with low numbers of classes 1 SD would be significant enough. > > > > 11% is a hypothetical ideal, it is not the mean nor is it something I would worry about classes deviating from by a few percentiles in a season. Now if it was 20% to 40% that would mean nearly every game has anywhere between 2 and 4 of that class....like back when scourge would face roll you to platinum. > > > > Yes there needs to be some adjustments with mirage, I have made numerous posts detailing what I would do and it's mostly around toning down the conditions output and removing the torment in favour of something slower to build up. > > I admit, the use of the word "significantly" was imperfect here. I did not mean the statistical term. :tongue: I though that was obvious, because I didn't introduce a significance level for the test. > > We need the number of people in 1400+... It would be nice if there were usage stats for all classes broken down by rating brackets but I don't think I trust 99% of the forum to properly read, understand and utilise the data without colouring it with their own agenda. Either way 14% is not a major issue and only shows what I mean, blowing the issue way out of proportion. I wonder how far ANet is going to gut core mesmer and chrono in the next balance patch though without addressing the real issue of the ambush skills and confusion+torment combination being so oppressive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > @"Cicada.6298" said: > > > > > > @"Stallic.2397" said: > > > > > > > @"Cicada.6298" said: > > > > > > > so, as a returning player who is ultra-casual these days, and having never played Mesmer at all (never even created one), I decided to see what the fuss is about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Made one an hour ago, jumped into pvp with the metabattle build and proceeded to press whatever cooldown was up; not far off from (literally) face rolling my keyboard, and won 3 matches -- the fact that _anyone_ died to that probably signals there's a problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > Same here. I usually play Chrono if I'm playing mesmer, but I decided to try the Meta condi mirage for once, last night. Dominated each fight. Easily +1'd. If I was having an issue, I just stealthed or teleported away. Getting focused? Dodge, invuln'd or lost targeting on axe skill 3. I never knew how carefree sPvp could be until playing as mirage. haha! > > > > > > > > > > while I understand _(at least from the tone of this thread)_ there isn't much representation for Mesmer in the highest/elite ranks, (...) > > > > > > > > I know you inserted those little brackets, but I just wanted to point out that that seems to be more of an illusionary fact. :wink: The only actual data we have is what @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" posted: 14% for 1400+ which is significantly _more_ than should be (11% per class). > > > > > > > > > > You would need more data to understand if 14% was "significantly more than it should be". Generally speaking if it was less than 1 standard deviation I wouldn't call it significant and most institutes require it be over 2 standard deviations to be statistically significant, though with low numbers of classes 1 SD would be significant enough. > > > > > > 11% is a hypothetical ideal, it is not the mean nor is it something I would worry about classes deviating from by a few percentiles in a season. Now if it was 20% to 40% that would mean nearly every game has anywhere between 2 and 4 of that class....like back when scourge would face roll you to platinum. > > > > > > Yes there needs to be some adjustments with mirage, I have made numerous posts detailing what I would do and it's mostly around toning down the conditions output and removing the torment in favour of something slower to build up. > > > > I admit, the use of the word "significantly" was imperfect here. I did not mean the statistical term. :tongue: I though that was obvious, because I didn't introduce a significance level for the test. > > > > We need the number of people in 1400+... > > It would be nice if there were usage stats for all classes broken down by rating brackets but I don't think I trust 99% of the forum to properly read, understand and utilise the data without colouring it with their own agenda. Either way 14% is not a major issue and only shows what I mean, blowing the issue way out of proportion. I wonder how far ANet is going to gut core mesmer and chrono in the next balance patch though without addressing the real issue of the ambush skills and confusion+torment combination being so oppressive? Yeah, having access to all the data would really be interesting. 14% is indeed not a major issue (or any at all), but it shows that mesmer is not really _under_represented. Need... more... numbers!!11 And I totally expect weird changes and nerfs across the board. It's going to be fun. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susy.7529 Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 I'm not reading that wall of text but I'll simply answer to your title. You ask how? Ok, I'll tell you my meter to judge this. 1-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Yes, fine then I'll have to get better to try to win more." 2-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Nope almost never no matter how much I try, that class is OP and must be nerfed!." The first line applies to almost every class while the second only to Mirage and (on a minor part) Soulbest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reirli.3817 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 Mirage is a different story than the current Boonbeast build, Mirage as a whole is pretty powerful while Boonbeast is simply a build. Mirage is annoying to fight against, I don't care how much damage their confusion does or whatever they throw initially at me, I honestly don't care how many overbearing conditions they can inflict on me at once, I just want to be able to be given the luxury to actually hit them without being interrupted constantly by their distortion/reflection/break target/stealth&shadowstep. I want to be able to pick them off their clones if they mess up, my pick with mirage is that they're not only very offensive, but also very defensive. I honestly have no other qualms because they've been OP since the beginning of time, and that fact is just something we all have to live with. Sincerely, GS/LB ranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Susy.7529" said: > I'm not reading that wall of text but I'll simply answer to your title. > You ask how? Ok, I'll tell you my meter to judge this. > 1-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Yes, fine then I'll have to get better to try to win more." > 2-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Nope almost never no matter how much I try, that class is OP and must be nerfed!." > The first line applies to almost every class while the second only to Mirage and (on a minor part) Soulbest. Well, the many players who generally don't have issues defeating Mirages (and therefore mostly don't come to the forums to gripe about it) might beg to differ. Mirage, and Mesmer in general, may be the hardest class to learn to play against. But that alone doesn't make it OP. > @"Reirli.3817" said: > Mirage is a different story than the current Boonbeast build, Mirage as a whole is pretty powerful while Boonbeast is simply a build. > > Mirage is annoying to fight against, I don't care how much damage their confusion does or whatever they throw initially at me, I honestly don't care how many overbearing conditions they can inflict on me at once, I just want to be able to be given the luxury to actually hit them without being interrupted constantly by their distortion/reflection/break target/stealth&shadowstep. I want to be able to pick them off their clones if they mess up, my pick with mirage is that they're not only very offensive, but also very defensive. I honestly have no other qualms because they've been OP since the beginning of time, and that fact is just something we all have to live with. > > Sincerely, GS/LB ranger Slippery and difficult to lock down is literally the idea behind Mesmer and especially Mirage. And learning to spot them among their clones is one of the most important skills towards beating them. It's something that can be learned, and once you do, removes much of the bewilderment in fighting them. Still, others and I, have called for toning down damage output, specifically on condi Mirage, among other changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stallic.2397 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Reirli.3817" said: > Mirage is a different story than the current Boonbeast build, Mirage as a whole is pretty powerful while Boonbeast is simply a build. > > Mirage is annoying to fight against, I don't care how much damage their confusion does or whatever they throw initially at me, I honestly don't care how many overbearing conditions they can inflict on me at once, I just want to be able to be given the luxury to actually hit them without being interrupted constantly by their distortion/reflection/break target/stealth&shadowstep. I want to be able to pick them off their clones if they mess up, my pick with mirage is that they're not only very offensive, but also very defensive. I honestly have no other qualms because they've been OP since the beginning of time, and that fact is just something we all have to live with. > > Sincerely, GS/LB ranger I gotta agree. Mirage has spike damage, but it's not higher than any of the other burst builds out there. As a mirage, if I really want to confuse my enemy and survive bursts. I just jump around the map until they give up. All detargeting skills are overpowered. Why? Because I'm not using skill to do it. I'm not deciding where the jump will land me. I can be at 1200 range, press illusionary ambush and randomly jump somewhere completely different on the map at 1200 range. The computer decided for me. Which goes against the simple joy of pvp- fighting against a human. I understand mesmer is meant to confuse. But confusing your opponent should be by human decisions. Not computer calculation. This isn't terminator for kitten sake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBroChill.3254 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > Slippery and difficult to lock down is literally the idea behind Mesmer and especially Mirage. And learning to spot them among their clones is one of the most important skills towards beating them. It's something that can be learned, and once you do, removes much of the bewilderment in fighting them. Still, others and I, have called for toning down damage output, specifically on condi Mirage, among other changes. The only problem with this defense is that once you lock down the mesmer it just dodges through the stuns and continues on its merry way. For this whole idea of a slippery class that needs to be locked down to work, it actually has to be able to be locked down. But you can't. Not unless the mesmer wastes its skills. You're really at the mercy of the skill of the mesmer at this point because the mesmer has answers, defensively, for everything you throw at it. And its a problem because of their ability to do respectable damage on top of this without much effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Seizure.4985 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 “Cyber Bullied Class” My goodness, this is absolutely hilarious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Reirli.3817" said: > Mirage is a different story than the current Boonbeast build, Mirage as a whole is pretty powerful while Boonbeast is simply a build. > > Mirage is annoying to fight against, I don't care how much damage their confusion does or whatever they throw initially at me, I honestly don't care how many overbearing conditions they can inflict on me at once, I just want to be able to be given the luxury to actually hit them without being interrupted constantly by their distortion/reflection/break target/stealth&shadowstep. I want to be able to pick them off their clones if they mess up, my pick with mirage is that they're not only very offensive, but also very defensive. I honestly have no other qualms because they've been OP since the beginning of time, and that fact is just something we all have to live with. > > Sincerely, GS/LB ranger Boonbeast mains made up ranks 1,2,3, and 4 on NA last season. # 10 last season swapped to Boonbeast to climb during the last day of the season. I know 9 mained Deadeye but dunno about 5,6,7, and 8. Like get out of here if you don't think Boonbeast is clearly a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susy.7529 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > I'm not reading that wall of text but I'll simply answer to your title. > > You ask how? Ok, I'll tell you my meter to judge this. > > 1-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Yes, fine then I'll have to get better to try to win more." > > 2-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Nope almost never no matter how much I try, that class is OP and must be nerfed!." > > The first line applies to almost every class while the second only to Mirage and (on a minor part) Soulbest. > > Well, the many players who generally don't have issues defeating Mirages (and therefore mostly don't come to the forums to gripe about it) might beg to differ. Mirage, and Mesmer in general, may be the hardest class to learn to play against. But that alone doesn't make it OP. > Let them beg to differ then, I don't care. That's my meter and it won't change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasdamas Anklast.1607 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Cyber bullied class.............WAT I don't have words to describe this lvl of outrage lmao "Cyber bullied class" The only who are getting bullied here are people of the other classes that never chose to cater towards this class overpowered state because this fucking mirage mesmer spec is a meme. If there is some shit going on you can't easily deal on your main class - hop on mirage. If you suck at GW2 pvp in general - roll a mirage. Stop acting like you are a victim, your class DESTROYED this game's pvp. It's time you get properly nerfed until you are completely irrelevant so people stop creating mesmers to cheese in competitive modes. And for "useful argumentation"- your class can evade (kek and also stunbreak) while casting abilities to counter whatever your enemy is up to. That's probably the most overpowered crap Mirage ever offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort.8647 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 In my opinion, there are 2 reasons why mirages are still overpowered. 1. Mirage cloak is usable while stunned 2. Target breaks Mirage is very hard to pin down when they are doing their burst because they summon a ridiculous number of clones, while breaking target. At times there can be over 7 clones visible, which just fills the screen with visual noise. Your only reasonable option is to click on the real mesmer because tab target will just cycle through clones. This game is an mmo, not a fps. You should not have to snipe click on your target in a mess of clones every 5-10 seconds in order to use your skills. Stealth is already bad enough in pvp/wvw, target breaks are not good design. Once you do manage to pin down the real mes, either by exhausting their cd's, or picking them out of their clones, they can evade through any attack you do. You can completely outplay them, lock them down with cc, and they can get away with little to no damage taken every time, then reset the fight with their cd's back up. The way mirage is designed makes them frustrating to fight, and every fight seems unfair no matter the outcome. It seeming overpowered has nothing to do with damage output, or viability in the top ranked matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pureskullz.7536 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 It's not that MESMER is overpowered it's certain build combinations and, That's something people need to get into their heads. It's built combinations like saying example a class has a trait with full blind uptime and max might. When paired with said traits it isn't the classes fault it has the traits people it's an error on the developer or a miscalculation or ON intention. Needless to say, that's not what has made me disappointed in the game it's the lack of new content release and patches. It would be much more bearable if we got new balance patches very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Susy.7529" said: > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > I'm not reading that wall of text but I'll simply answer to your title. > > > You ask how? Ok, I'll tell you my meter to judge this. > > > 1-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Yes, fine then I'll have to get better to try to win more." > > > 2-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Nope almost never no matter how much I try, that class is OP and must be nerfed!." > > > The first line applies to almost every class while the second only to Mirage and (on a minor part) Soulbest. > > > > Well, the many players who generally don't have issues defeating Mirages (and therefore mostly don't come to the forums to gripe about it) might beg to differ. Mirage, and Mesmer in general, may be the hardest class to learn to play against. But that alone doesn't make it OP. > > > Let them beg to differ then, I don't care. That's my meter and it won't change. Easier to demand things change for you than to go through the annoying hassle of self improvement, right? Totally how the world works. Struggling with some advanced math problems? They must be impossible and rewritten so you can do them. Can't land that competitive job position? The job description should be changed to suit you. Can't afford to live in the expensive neighborhood? Price should be reduced just for you! Yeah, different situations, but same principle. Good luck with your unchangeable meter! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susy.7529 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > > I'm not reading that wall of text but I'll simply answer to your title. > > > > You ask how? Ok, I'll tell you my meter to judge this. > > > > 1-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Yes, fine then I'll have to get better to try to win more." > > > > 2-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Nope almost never no matter how much I try, that class is OP and must be nerfed!." > > > > The first line applies to almost every class while the second only to Mirage and (on a minor part) Soulbest. > > > > > > Well, the many players who generally don't have issues defeating Mirages (and therefore mostly don't come to the forums to gripe about it) might beg to differ. Mirage, and Mesmer in general, may be the hardest class to learn to play against. But that alone doesn't make it OP. > > > > > Let them beg to differ then, I don't care. That's my meter and it won't change. > > Easier to demand things change for you than to go through the annoying hassle of self improvement, right? Totally how the world works. Struggling with some advanced math problems? They must be impossible and rewritten so you can do them. Can't land that competitive job position? The job description should be changed to suit you. Can't afford to live in the expensive neighborhood? Price should be reduced just for you! Yeah, different situations, but same principle. Good luck with your unchangeable meter! :) Yes it's definitely easier, I don't want to spend hours to learn to fight a single class, if a class is way harder to learn to play against compared to others, there's something wrong and it's an unfair advantage, the learning curve must be the same for all classes (or very little differences), this means having a good balance. I don't think I'm that bad of a player but while I can fight equally with most classes, I can't fight with mesmers, this must say something. Not everybody wants to learn as much, many people are just casuals who plays from time to time and don't have that much time investment to specifically learn the difficult ways to counter Mirages, still those people are a part of the community like you. If we were that bad agains every single classes we didn't deserve any attention, but only Mirage causes that much of a problem to us compared to other classes, so I think Mirage should be made clearer to fight against, like other classes are. P.S. Exemples you did have nothing to do in this case, a competitive job comes with higher requirements and higher pay than other jobs and that's fine, Mirage comes with same requirements(=it's not hard to play, not harder than most other classes at least) but best pay(=harder to be killed) than other classes. Same thing with the other one of the neighborhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Susy.7529" said: > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > > > I'm not reading that wall of text but I'll simply answer to your title. > > > > > You ask how? Ok, I'll tell you my meter to judge this. > > > > > 1-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Yes, fine then I'll have to get better to try to win more." > > > > > 2-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Nope almost never no matter how much I try, that class is OP and must be nerfed!." > > > > > The first line applies to almost every class while the second only to Mirage and (on a minor part) Soulbest. > > > > > > > > Well, the many players who generally don't have issues defeating Mirages (and therefore mostly don't come to the forums to gripe about it) might beg to differ. Mirage, and Mesmer in general, may be the hardest class to learn to play against. But that alone doesn't make it OP. > > > > > > > Let them beg to differ then, I don't care. That's my meter and it won't change. > > > > Easier to demand things change for you than to go through the annoying hassle of self improvement, right? Totally how the world works. Struggling with some advanced math problems? They must be impossible and rewritten so you can do them. Can't land that competitive job position? The job description should be changed to suit you. Can't afford to live in the expensive neighborhood? Price should be reduced just for you! Yeah, different situations, but same principle. Good luck with your unchangeable meter! :) > > ... > P.S. Exemples you did have nothing to do in this case, a competitive job comes with higher requirements and higher pay than other jobs and that's fine, Mirage comes with same requirements(=it's not hard to play, not harder than most other classes at least) but best pay(=harder to be killed) than other classes. Same thing with the other one of the neighborhood. Except, like your original comment, the examples are from the perspective of the person fighting Mirage, or trying to do math, land a job, or live in an expensive neighborhood. You were demanding that the standards change to fit your "meter" which "won't change." Now you're attempting to invalidate the examples by arguing a different point which you never raised previously. You're saying those playing Mirage have it better without having to do more. That's a separate debate from "no matter how much I try, that class is OP and must be nerfed!" TL;DR: Now you're focusing on perceived ease/skill level of playing Mirage, when before, you were stating they're unbeatable and need nerf. Changing the issue doesn't invalidate my examples responding to your original claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modium.1394 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 even if mirage was deleted from the game people would find something else to complain about. mirage more than any other class by far has people in public discussions constantly nit picking/exaggerate their pros without mentioning or addressing their cons and how they fare in matchups at this current time. when the discussion on balance is not balanced in and of itself, you really have to wonder if its just an echo chamber where groupthink enables calling for nerfs season after season. mirage are middle of the road. it doesn't do the best burst, best sustained pressure or have best kiting and defense/sustain, but it does all of those well enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said: > Cyber bullied class.............WAT > > I don't have words to describe this lvl of outrage lmao "Cyber bullied class" The only who are getting bullied here are people of the other classes that never chose to cater towards this class overpowered state because this kitten mirage mesmer spec is a meme. If there is some kitten going on you can't easily deal on your main class - hop on mirage. If you suck at GW2 pvp in general - roll a mirage. > Stop acting like you are a victim, your class DESTROYED this game's pvp. It's time you get properly nerfed until you are completely irrelevant so people stop creating mesmers to cheese in competitive modes. > > And for "useful argumentation"- your class can evade (kek and also stunbreak) while casting abilities to counter whatever your enemy is up to. That's probably the most overpowered kitten Mirage ever offer. Actually, no. The class that actually destroyed pvp is scourge. Scourge was the sole reason everyone had to change their playstyle. Scourge was the reason most if not all of the HoT bunkers became null and void. Scourge taught people not to run straight to mid, but try to engage people in other ways. Scourge made people reroll to DE,Boonbeast,Core Ranger (insert ranged counter here), because people got tired of dying in melee since melee was and has been super strong for obvious reasons. Scourge (that was supposed to be a support class) became a harsher condi class that makes core necro look like a still-in-beta spec because Anet decided that their 'support' spec needed more damage for some reason. Scourge literally flipped everything we knew on it's head and told us to shape up or git rekt, cause look at the AOE gameplay now. Now don't get me wrong, mirage is strong. But I will never forget the blalantly brainless people and gold tier folks that made it to plat solely playing scourge and then when I dueled them they got completely dumpstered with the nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susy.7529 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > > > > I'm not reading that wall of text but I'll simply answer to your title. > > > > > > You ask how? Ok, I'll tell you my meter to judge this. > > > > > > 1-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Yes, fine then I'll have to get better to try to win more." > > > > > > 2-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Nope almost never no matter how much I try, that class is OP and must be nerfed!." > > > > > > The first line applies to almost every class while the second only to Mirage and (on a minor part) Soulbest. > > > > > > > > > > Well, the many players who generally don't have issues defeating Mirages (and therefore mostly don't come to the forums to gripe about it) might beg to differ. Mirage, and Mesmer in general, may be the hardest class to learn to play against. But that alone doesn't make it OP. > > > > > > > > > Let them beg to differ then, I don't care. That's my meter and it won't change. > > > > > > Easier to demand things change for you than to go through the annoying hassle of self improvement, right? Totally how the world works. Struggling with some advanced math problems? They must be impossible and rewritten so you can do them. Can't land that competitive job position? The job description should be changed to suit you. Can't afford to live in the expensive neighborhood? Price should be reduced just for you! Yeah, different situations, but same principle. Good luck with your unchangeable meter! :) > > > > ... > > P.S. Exemples you did have nothing to do in this case, a competitive job comes with higher requirements and higher pay than other jobs and that's fine, Mirage comes with same requirements(=it's not hard to play, not harder than most other classes at least) but best pay(=harder to be killed) than other classes. Same thing with the other one of the neighborhood. > > Except, like your original comment, the examples are from the perspective of the person fighting Mirage, or trying to do math, land a job, or live in an expensive neighborhood. You were demanding that the standards change to fit your "meter" which "won't change." Ok sorry but my english is not that good, what exactly are the differences between my 1st and 2nd posts? Did I said different opinions? I'm genuinely asking because I don't see any difference in my thoughts from those 2 posts, in the 2nd one I just raised other points to validate my first one. I never mentioned my meter in second post. what I wrote in first didn't change. > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > > > > I'm not reading that wall of text but I'll simply answer to your title. > > > > > > You ask how? Ok, I'll tell you my meter to judge this. > > > > > > 1-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Yes, fine then I'll have to get better to try to win more." > > > > > > 2-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Nope almost never no matter how much I try, that class is OP and must be nerfed!." > > > > > > The first line applies to almost every class while the second only to Mirage and (on a minor part) Soulbest. > > > > > > > > > > Well, the many players who generally don't have issues defeating Mirages (and therefore mostly don't come to the forums to gripe about it) might beg to differ. Mirage, and Mesmer in general, may be the hardest class to learn to play against. But that alone doesn't make it OP. > > > > > > > > > Let them beg to differ then, I don't care. That's my meter and it won't change. > > > > > > Easier to demand things change for you than to go through the annoying hassle of self improvement, right? Totally how the world works. Struggling with some advanced math problems? They must be impossible and rewritten so you can do them. Can't land that competitive job position? The job description should be changed to suit you. Can't afford to live in the expensive neighborhood? Price should be reduced just for you! Yeah, different situations, but same principle. Good luck with your unchangeable meter! :) > > > > ... > > P.S. Exemples you did have nothing to do in this case, a competitive job comes with higher requirements and higher pay than other jobs and that's fine, Mirage comes with same requirements(=it's not hard to play, not harder than most other classes at least) but best pay(=harder to be killed) than other classes. Same thing with the other one of the neighborhood. > > Now you're attempting to invalidate the examples by arguing a different point which you never raised previously. You're saying those playing Mirage have it better without having to do more. That's a separate debate from "no matter how much I try, that class is OP and must be nerfed!" So what? That's exactly what a discussion is, points are added after each each other quotes, you can't expect me to think of every single point at a single time and write it down in a single post, when someone makes me think of another point I write it down, lol I'm feeling like I'm writing obvious things. It's not like I didn't believe my subsequent points at the time of my first post, it's just that I didn't think about them that way. And why would it be a separate debate? "If Mirages wouldn't have it better without having to do more, I wouldn't have to try that much with them" that's exactly the same thing, one thing is a consequence ot the other. > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > > > > > > @"Susy.7529" said: > > > > > > I'm not reading that wall of text but I'll simply answer to your title. > > > > > > You ask how? Ok, I'll tell you my meter to judge this. > > > > > > 1-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Yes, fine then I'll have to get better to try to win more." > > > > > > 2-"A specific class kills me? No problem. Can I fight back and win sometimes? Nope almost never no matter how much I try, that class is OP and must be nerfed!." > > > > > > The first line applies to almost every class while the second only to Mirage and (on a minor part) Soulbest. > > > > > > > > > > Well, the many players who generally don't have issues defeating Mirages (and therefore mostly don't come to the forums to gripe about it) might beg to differ. Mirage, and Mesmer in general, may be the hardest class to learn to play against. But that alone doesn't make it OP. > > > > > > > > > Let them beg to differ then, I don't care. That's my meter and it won't change. > > > > > > Easier to demand things change for you than to go through the annoying hassle of self improvement, right? Totally how the world works. Struggling with some advanced math problems? They must be impossible and rewritten so you can do them. Can't land that competitive job position? The job description should be changed to suit you. Can't afford to live in the expensive neighborhood? Price should be reduced just for you! Yeah, different situations, but same principle. Good luck with your unchangeable meter! :) > > > > ... > > P.S. Exemples you did have nothing to do in this case, a competitive job comes with higher requirements and higher pay than other jobs and that's fine, Mirage comes with same requirements(=it's not hard to play, not harder than most other classes at least) but best pay(=harder to be killed) than other classes. Same thing with the other one of the neighborhood. > > TL;DR: Now you're focusing on perceived ease/skill level of playing Mirage, when before, you were stating they're unbeatable and need nerf. Changing the issue doesn't invalidate my examples responding to your original claim. Again, I think I'm saying the same things but as I said above I could have worded poorly. In my first post (by writing down my meter to answer OP's question "How...?"), I clearly stated "I", not "us" nor "everybody" so I was talking about my perceived feeling when fighting Mirages in my first post too: > @"Susy.7529" said: > I'm not reading that wall of text but I'll simply answer to your title. > You ask how? Ok, I'll tell you my meter to judge this. > 1-"A specific class kills _**me**_? No problem. Can _**I**_ fight back and win sometimes? Yes, fine then _**I**_'ll have to get better to try to win more." > 2-"A specific class kills _**me**_? No problem. Can _**I**_ fight back and win sometimes? Nope almost never no matter how much _**I**_ try, that class is OP and must be nerfed!.") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 @"Susy.7529" Your English is fine. :) No, I don't think your overall position changed between your posts. Just that my examples responded to what you said in the first one, but didn't necessarily apply to the new point you made in the second one. The first post was about changing the status quo to fit your standard (which is what my examples were about). The second post went on to add that Mirage is easy/low-skill to play, which my examples don't relate to since they were written prior. Mirage can be challenging to fight, no doubt about it. But balance decisions should not necessarily cater to casual players who don't want to invest the time to learn (the ones you mentioned in your second post). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susy.7529 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > @"Susy.7529" > Your English is fine. :) > > No, I don't think your overall position changed between your posts. Just that my examples responded to what you said in the first one, but didn't necessarily apply to the new point you made in the second one. The first post was about changing the status quo to fit your standard (which is what my examples were about). The second post went on to add that Mirage is easy/low-skill to play, which my examples don't relate to since they were written prior. > > Mirage can be challenging to fight, no doubt about it. But balance decisions should not necessarily cater to casual players who don't want to invest the time to learn (the ones you mentioned in your second post). I don't exactly agree but that rises another question: what is the majority of players currently playing PvP? Casuals or Veterans? Because imho balance should mostly be aimed to the majority no doubt about it, but i don't have data to say who are more. Still even if casuals wouldn't be the majority I think balance should be aimed to them too in a part, a casual today might be a veteran tomorrow unless they feel frustrated in fighting OP classes and leave the game, which wouldn't be beneficial for anet, however this too opens to another debate, would appealing casuals and veterans (who are not happy with current system) be more lucrative to anet? Or would appealing mesmers and veterans (who are fine with current system) be more lucrative to anet? We can't go much further than this because we don't have datas but they have and I think they'll make their decisions based on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > (...) > Mirage can be challenging to fight, no doubt about it. But balance decisions should not necessarily cater to casual players who don't want to invest the time to learn (the ones you mentioned in your second post). I do not know where the myth comes from that veteran players don't complain about mirage. I have made different experiences. And yes, I would call myself a veteran player and I know condi mirage from playing it. Maybe the nerfs I suggest are less harsh than what is sometimes asked for in these forums, but I am annoyed by condi mirage and the lack of meaningful changes to it for a very long time - while at the same time the same happens to ele in the other extreme. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Casual players have trouble vs. Mirage because evade spamming while attacking is the most skill-less garbage ever. A casual will probably quit PVP because it's hard to count dodges on a dodge spam class like Mirage or Mesmer for that matter. Veteran players abuse/have trouble vs. Mirage because Mirage just has potential insane Map Control, can require 2 people to kill them cause the other team to be outnumbered, and is overall too strong of a class. Why can't this class just be "balanced" in 1v1 and not require ganks to be killed within time? It's the same case as the old d/d ele, most of the time you had to 2v1 it to kill it on a point. Invuln/evade spam I think is the root of the problem. Warrior can only defend vs. power OR condition, can't be both. Guardian can die to unblockables. Thief has to be careful of AoEs because of low HP pool. Core grenade Engi has to skill shot. Necro doesn't have a single invulnerability skill. The only other class that's possibly just as obnoxious is probably Ranger, but everything else **you can actually count their cool downs and dodges. ** So it begs to question, why does Mesmer have no legitimate trade-off once "Mesmer mains" grow a brain and stop being entitled? That is probably the root of the problem. If for some reason Mirage, or MESMER evades FOR THAT MATTER, become "count-able" instead of praying you hit the mirage giving a sense of RNG, then you balance for the majority. I'll be happy with them gutting z-axis teleports personally, but Mesmer can keep z-axis teleports if the evade spam just gets flat out gutted and they get compensated elsewhere. I don't get why common sense is hard. TL;DR Maybe nerf Mirage evades in general (maybe a 20% nerf so a 1 second evade is a 0.8 second evade), and give them a "decent" auto-attack so they take more risk to play. You can keep your z-axis teleport even though that crap is the most broken garbage ever. Once Mirage gets nerfed, we can move on to the next evil and decide if nerfing that is healthy for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasdamas Anklast.1607 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said: > > Cyber bullied class.............WAT > > > > I don't have words to describe this lvl of outrage lmao "Cyber bullied class" The only who are getting bullied here are people of the other classes that never chose to cater towards this class overpowered state because this kitten mirage mesmer spec is a meme. If there is some kitten going on you can't easily deal on your main class - hop on mirage. If you suck at GW2 pvp in general - roll a mirage. > > Stop acting like you are a victim, your class DESTROYED this game's pvp. It's time you get properly nerfed until you are completely irrelevant so people stop creating mesmers to cheese in competitive modes. > > > > And for "useful argumentation"- your class can evade (kek and also stunbreak) while casting abilities to counter whatever your enemy is up to. That's probably the most overpowered kitten Mirage ever offer. > > Actually, no. > The class that actually destroyed pvp is scourge. > > Scourge was the sole reason everyone had to change their playstyle. > > Scourge was the reason most if not all of the HoT bunkers became null and void. > > Scourge taught people not to run straight to mid, but try to engage people in other ways. > > Scourge made people reroll to DE,Boonbeast,Core Ranger (insert ranged counter here), because people got tired of dying in melee since melee was and has been super strong for obvious reasons. > > Scourge (that was supposed to be a support class) became a harsher condi class that makes core necro look like a still-in-beta spec because Anet decided that their 'support' spec needed more damage for some reason. > > Scourge literally flipped everything we knew on it's head and told us to shape up or git rekt, cause look at the AOE gameplay now. > > Now don't get me wrong, mirage is strong. But I will never forget the blalantly brainless people and gold tier folks that made it to plat solely playing scourge and then when I dueled them they got completely dumpstered with the nerfs. Oh yeah, sorry. Mesmers* not just mirage But yeah I get your point. Still it was so much easier to wipe solo scourge out of your home point than say druid or chronomancer/mirage. Scourge's synergy with firebrand was borderline retarded but at leastit was synergy of two players working together than synergy of a player playing together with Nan Nan numbers of his own clones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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