Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > > > > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > > > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > > > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > > > > * Trailblazer stats > > > > > * PvE sigil options > > > > > > > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > > > > > > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > > > > > > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > > > > > > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > > > > > > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > > > > > > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. > > > > > > Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. > > > > Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead. You tend to see them in small numbers duo to 5 a lot too because of the sustain with MMR, Adrenal healing, mobility and sheer amount of CC. > > > > As I say this is my experience in T1-T2 EU, your mileage may vary. > > Ok. > „One stunlock = dead“ > And how can a warrior archive this stunlock without help from someone else? > > Sure a Warrior could do that to a zergling but that doesn’t really count because zergling builds are not made for small scall fights. > > You should only compare roaming build against roaming build. > > Tell me. > On equal skill level, who would win: > Mirage Vs Warrior > Soulbeast Vs Warrior > Deadeye Vs Warrior > Holo Vs Warrior > > Also: How on earth can a Spellbreaker do this much dmg without discipline and berserker power? > > I'll let apharma answer that but I like a lot where this is going and since you're one who wants the hardest mirage nerfed Tell me. On equal skill level, who would win: Boonbeast vs Mirage Conv Holo vs Mirage S/D Thief vs Mirage S/D Weaver vs Mirage Firebrand vs Mirage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > > > > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > > > > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > > > > > * Trailblazer stats > > > > > > * PvE sigil options > > > > > > > > > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > > > > > > > > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > > > > > > > > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > > > > > > > > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > > > > > > > > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > > > > > > > > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. > > > > > > > > Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. > > > > > > Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead. You tend to see them in small numbers duo to 5 a lot too because of the sustain with MMR, Adrenal healing, mobility and sheer amount of CC. > > > > > > As I say this is my experience in T1-T2 EU, your mileage may vary. > > > > Ok. > > „One stunlock = dead“ > > And how can a warrior archive this stunlock without help from someone else? > > > > Sure a Warrior could do that to a zergling but that doesn’t really count because zergling builds are not made for small scall fights. > > > > You should only compare roaming build against roaming build. > > > > Tell me. > > On equal skill level, who would win: > > Mirage Vs Warrior > > Soulbeast Vs Warrior > > Deadeye Vs Warrior > > Holo Vs Warrior > > > > Also: How on earth can a Spellbreaker do this much dmg without discipline and berserker power? > > > > > > You might want to check the context, I was saying those builds aren't going to chase a warrior because 1 stunlock = dead, many do not have passive save my bacon traits within their builds. > > Thief uses initiative and would have to use shadowstep usually it's only stunbreak to catch the warrior. > Mirage will have to use blink and most of if not all it's endurance to chase the warrior leaving it low on defences. > Rev would need to chase in shiro and use all it's energy, would have to legend swap on engage leaving 1 stunbreak only. > > Like it or not chasing a warrior for many classes is a lot more risky than it's worth because of the amount of resources needed to keep up. It's not risky for a soulbeast because they can pew pew it to death from far out of it's range while keeping up via double swoop (12s and 10s CD) and holo only can keep up with rocket boots. For holo they usually just don't bother but in the event they have rocket boots it's 1 cool down. > > It's about resources needed to chase vs resources you'd have in combat, the warrior is less restricted in it's use of mobility skills while generally having a low cool down on the ones it uses like whirlwind. Well, you already lost when all you can do is run, and maybe then fight someone who overaggressively chases. But i, as a roamer like to take camps and not just run away from them. So where exactly does that make warrior an effecrive roamer, if he loses in all the other scenarios where he isnt running away. Imo your argument does not support your claim that warrior is a top roamer. Not to mention that warrior on the others hand cant keep up with most classes. So while thief etc can actually chase down a warrior to kill him (and might eventually die, when they just chase mindlessly spamming buttons), warrior doesnt rly have that option, because hes not even able to chase down a thief or mesmer or holo or soulbeast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > > > > > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > > > > > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > > > > > > * Trailblazer stats > > > > > > > * PvE sigil options > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > > > > > > > > > > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > > > > > > > > > > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > > > > > > > > > > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. > > > > > > > > > > Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. > > > > > > > > Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead. You tend to see them in small numbers duo to 5 a lot too because of the sustain with MMR, Adrenal healing, mobility and sheer amount of CC. > > > > > > > > As I say this is my experience in T1-T2 EU, your mileage may vary. > > > > > > Ok. > > > „One stunlock = dead“ > > > And how can a warrior archive this stunlock without help from someone else? > > > > > > Sure a Warrior could do that to a zergling but that doesn’t really count because zergling builds are not made for small scall fights. > > > > > > You should only compare roaming build against roaming build. > > > > > > Tell me. > > > On equal skill level, who would win: > > > Mirage Vs Warrior > > > Soulbeast Vs Warrior > > > Deadeye Vs Warrior > > > Holo Vs Warrior > > > > > > Also: How on earth can a Spellbreaker do this much dmg without discipline and berserker power? > > > > > > > > > > You might want to check the context, I was saying those builds aren't going to chase a warrior because 1 stunlock = dead, many do not have passive save my bacon traits within their builds. > > > > Thief uses initiative and would have to use shadowstep usually it's only stunbreak to catch the warrior. > > Mirage will have to use blink and most of if not all it's endurance to chase the warrior leaving it low on defences. > > Rev would need to chase in shiro and use all it's energy, would have to legend swap on engage leaving 1 stunbreak only. > > > > Like it or not chasing a warrior for many classes is a lot more risky than it's worth because of the amount of resources needed to keep up. It's not risky for a soulbeast because they can pew pew it to death from far out of it's range while keeping up via double swoop (12s and 10s CD) and holo only can keep up with rocket boots. For holo they usually just don't bother but in the event they have rocket boots it's 1 cool down. > > > > It's about resources needed to chase vs resources you'd have in combat, the warrior is less restricted in it's use of mobility skills while generally having a low cool down on the ones it uses like whirlwind. > > Well, you already lost when all you can do is run, and maybe then fight someone who overaggressively chases. But i, as a roamer like to take camps and not just run away from them. So where exactly does that make warrior an effecrive roamer, if he loses in all the other scenarios where he isnt running away. > Imo your argument does not support your claim that warrior is a top roamer. Not to mention that warrior on the others hand cant keep up with most classes. So while thief etc can actually chase down a warrior to kill him (and might eventually die, when they just chase mindlessly spamming buttons), warrior doesnt rly have that option, because hes not even able to chase down a thief or mesmer or holo or soulbeast. Um that's a lot of false conclusions and misinformation you have there. A warrior with bulls charge and greatsword outruns anything except what I stated can keep up, you're mistakenly assuming this means all it does is run from fights and so can't win, that's an incorrect assumption. Warrior can win a fair number of it's fights and scales up very well being outnumbered but the mobility it has allows for it to bail on a fight it's going to lose for the following reasons: 1. Too many people are coming. 2. The other person their fighting is better than them. 3. The the oven is on fire etc. I'm not sure if you play anything but warrior, a holo can never keep up with a warrior without traited rocket boots, seriously go and try. A mesmer requires sword to keep up, if condi mes is running sword it's an easier fight for war, power mes 1 slip up and it's dead, both have equal chances to win. Thief likewise as mentioned has to burn ini and shadowstep to keep up, yes they can chase the war but what do you think happens when the thief has no ini and no stunbreak? I'll give you a clue, it involves a respawn. I say what I see, I see holos, soulbeasts, condi mirage, revs and warriors the most for roaming. I tend to find groups of 2-3 warriors or revs running around, the former stunlocks you to oblivion and the latter just kills you with crazy high damage unless you stealth and teleport away. Edit: Yes I did mention soulbeast will easily chase and kill the war, the reality is it can do this to any and all classes tbh, no dispute on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > > > > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > > > > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > > > > > * Trailblazer stats > > > > > > * PvE sigil options > > > > > > > > > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > > > > > > > > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > > > > > > > > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > > > > > > > > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > > > > > > > > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > > > > > > > > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. > > > > > > > > Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. > > > > > > Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead. You tend to see them in small numbers duo to 5 a lot too because of the sustain with MMR, Adrenal healing, mobility and sheer amount of CC. > > > > > > As I say this is my experience in T1-T2 EU, your mileage may vary. > > > > Ok. > > „One stunlock = dead“ > > And how can a warrior archive this stunlock without help from someone else? > > > > Sure a Warrior could do that to a zergling but that doesn’t really count because zergling builds are not made for small scall fights. > > > > You should only compare roaming build against roaming build. > > > > Tell me. > > On equal skill level, who would win: > > Mirage Vs Warrior > > Soulbeast Vs Warrior > > Deadeye Vs Warrior > > Holo Vs Warrior > > > > Also: How on earth can a Spellbreaker do this much dmg without discipline and berserker power? > > > > > > I'll let apharma answer that but I like a lot where this is going and since you're one who wants the hardest mirage nerfed > Tell me. > On equal skill level, who would win: > Boonbeast vs Mirage > Conv Holo vs Mirage > S/D Thief vs Mirage > S/D Weaver vs Mirage > Firebrand vs Mirage The fact that im already known for wanting to nerf mirage makes me actually proud. Lets apply some rules first so we all are on the same mindset. 1. Its WvW Roaming and not PvP. Therefor no "Fair fights"/1 on1´s. 2. The fight in won when a Player get a kill. 3. The fight is not lost by disengaging if the Player gets the Kill on a later try. 4. The fight is lost when the player that initiate the fight can not get the kill ( Enemy can run). 5. There is no time limit. 6. There will never come help. 7. We look at the fight from both sides. Who initiates the fight. 8. If a Player has access to stealth he will always start the fight from stealth. 9. Each Players goal is to get the kill as fast and easy as possible. 10. All players are aware of their surroundings. 11. A Player without Stealth, Extreme Range or some sort of Teleport can not initiate the fight. ( No surprise factor) 12. If a Player has the Initiative then his Win Chance is drasticly increased. **Firebrand vs Mirage** Initiative Mirage: Mirage wins. Firebrand is a sitting duck. If his reaction is good he can survive some time but he also will never kill the Mirage. Mirage will either Burst him down or kill him over time. Initiative Firebrand: Mirage Wins What Firebrand would start a fight with a Mirage anyway? **S/D Weaver vs Mirage** Initiative Mirage: Mirage wins. Depends heavly on the reaction time of the Weaver. If the Weaver reacts in time, it becomes a Kit vs Kit fight. Mirage wins that fight over time. Initiative Weaver: Mirage wins Weaver can only get the Initiative with Lightning Flash. Depends heavly on the reaction time of the Mirage and if the Weaver can Burst the Mirage from 100 - 0 in 1 second or less. If the Mirage reacts in time, it becomes a Kit vs Kit fight. Mirage wins that fight over time. **S/D Thief vs Mirage** Initiative Mirage: Mirage wins. Initiative Thief: Depends Depends heavly on the reaction time of the Mirage and if the Thief can Burst the Mirage from 100 - 0 in 1 second or less. ( Im currently not sure if S/D Thief has enough burst) **Conv Holo vs Mirage** Initiative Mirage: Not to sure here. Depends heavly on the reaction time of the Holo. The Holo can not disengage the fight. The Mesmer can. Which means the Mesmer has unlimited tries. Initiative Holo: Mirage Holo can not initiate the fight. ( I mean he could run Elixer S?) **Boonbeast vs Mirage** Initiative Mirage: Not sure. Im not sure if a Mirage could burst a Boon beast from stealth fast enough. If the Boonbeast has enough time to react this could be a clown fiesta. Initiative Boonbeast: Mirage. Boonbeast can not initiate the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > > > > > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > > > > > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > > > > > > * Trailblazer stats > > > > > > > * PvE sigil options > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > > > > > > > > > > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > > > > > > > > > > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > > > > > > > > > > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. > > > > > > > > > > Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. > > > > > > > > Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead. You tend to see them in small numbers duo to 5 a lot too because of the sustain with MMR, Adrenal healing, mobility and sheer amount of CC. > > > > > > > > As I say this is my experience in T1-T2 EU, your mileage may vary. > > > > > > Ok. > > > „One stunlock = dead“ > > > And how can a warrior archive this stunlock without help from someone else? > > > > > > Sure a Warrior could do that to a zergling but that doesn’t really count because zergling builds are not made for small scall fights. > > > > > > You should only compare roaming build against roaming build. > > > > > > Tell me. > > > On equal skill level, who would win: > > > Mirage Vs Warrior > > > Soulbeast Vs Warrior > > > Deadeye Vs Warrior > > > Holo Vs Warrior > > > > > > Also: How on earth can a Spellbreaker do this much dmg without discipline and berserker power? > > > > > > > > > > I'll let apharma answer that but I like a lot where this is going and since you're one who wants the hardest mirage nerfed > > Tell me. > > On equal skill level, who would win: > > Boonbeast vs Mirage > > Conv Holo vs Mirage > > S/D Thief vs Mirage > > S/D Weaver vs Mirage > > Firebrand vs Mirage > > The fact that im already known for wanting to nerf mirage makes me actually proud. > > Lets apply some rules first so we all are on the same mindset. > > 1. Its WvW Roaming and not PvP. Therefor no "Fair fights"/1 on1´s. > 2. The fight in won when a Player get a kill. > 3. The fight is not lost by disengaging if the Player gets the Kill on a later try. > 4. The fight is lost when the player that initiate the fight can not get the kill ( Enemy can run). > 5. There is no time limit. > 6. There will never come help. > 7. We look at the fight from both sides. Who initiates the fight. > 8. If a Player has access to stealth he will always start the fight from stealth. > 9. Each Players goal is to get the kill as fast and easy as possible. > 10. All players are aware of their surroundings. > 11. A Player without Stealth, Extreme Range or some sort of Teleport can not initiate the fight. ( No surprise factor) > 12. If a Player has the Initiative then his Win Chance is drasticly increased. > > > **Firebrand vs Mirage** > Initiative Mirage: Mirage wins. > Firebrand is a sitting duck. > If his reaction is good he can survive some time but he also will never kill the Mirage. > Mirage will either Burst him down or kill him over time. > > Initiative Firebrand: Mirage Wins > What Firebrand would start a fight with a Mirage anyway? > > **S/D Weaver vs Mirage** > Initiative Mirage: Mirage wins. > Depends heavly on the reaction time of the Weaver. > If the Weaver reacts in time, it becomes a Kit vs Kit fight. Mirage wins that fight over time. > > Initiative Weaver: Mirage wins > Weaver can only get the Initiative with Lightning Flash. > Depends heavly on the reaction time of the Mirage and if the Weaver can Burst the Mirage from 100 - 0 in 1 second or less. > If the Mirage reacts in time, it becomes a Kit vs Kit fight. Mirage wins that fight over time. > > **S/D Thief vs Mirage** > Initiative Mirage: Mirage wins. > > Initiative Thief: Depends > Depends heavly on the reaction time of the Mirage and if the Thief can Burst the Mirage from 100 - 0 in 1 second or less. > ( Im currently not sure if S/D Thief has enough burst) > > > **Conv Holo vs Mirage** > Initiative Mirage: Not to sure here. > Depends heavly on the reaction time of the Holo. > The Holo can not disengage the fight. > The Mesmer can. > Which means the Mesmer has unlimited tries. > > Initiative Holo: Mirage > Holo can not initiate the fight. ( I mean he could run Elixer S?) > > > **Boonbeast vs Mirage** > Initiative Mirage: Not sure. > Im not sure if a Mirage could burst a Boon beast from stealth fast enough. > If the Boonbeast has enough time to react this could be a clown fiesta. > > Initiative Boonbeast: Mirage. > Boonbeast can not initiate the fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's all I needed. Thanks. 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Jojo.6590 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > Also I found it. > > > > > > Honestly, Mirage just needs a rework to Elusive Mind and Torch 5 = fixed. Elusive Mind is still too anti-burst. > > > > guess it wasn't fixed after all...like a lot of us said it wouldn't be. > > Actually looking back at the history. A lot of people thought " No condi application is ok, it's torch" > Just to turn around and say " Condi application is bad and is because they dodge too much, nerf that itll be fine" > Glad Anet wasted their time and resources Thank you for finding this statement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > > > > Honestly I'd like if they just removed Torment from Mesmer. > > I cant remember who posted the idea but it was along the lines of classes having main conditions. > I also dont understand why they didnt just use bleeding. As that to me fits more with the illusions and glass theme. Torment should honestly be exclusive to Necromancer imo I like that idea: * Warrior: Bleeding / Cripple * Guardian: Blind / Burning * Revenant: Torment / Chill * Thief: Bleed / Poison * Engineer: Burning / Bleeding * Ranger: Cripple / Poison * Mesmer: Slow / Confusion * Elementalist: Burning / Chill * Necro: Poison / Torment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > > > > > > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > > > > > > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > > > > > > > * Trailblazer stats > > > > > > > > * PvE sigil options > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. > > > > > > > > > > Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead. You tend to see them in small numbers duo to 5 a lot too because of the sustain with MMR, Adrenal healing, mobility and sheer amount of CC. > > > > > > > > > > As I say this is my experience in T1-T2 EU, your mileage may vary. > > > > > > > > Ok. > > > > „One stunlock = dead“ > > > > And how can a warrior archive this stunlock without help from someone else? > > > > > > > > Sure a Warrior could do that to a zergling but that doesn’t really count because zergling builds are not made for small scall fights. > > > > > > > > You should only compare roaming build against roaming build. > > > > > > > > Tell me. > > > > On equal skill level, who would win: > > > > Mirage Vs Warrior > > > > Soulbeast Vs Warrior > > > > Deadeye Vs Warrior > > > > Holo Vs Warrior > > > > > > > > Also: How on earth can a Spellbreaker do this much dmg without discipline and berserker power? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You might want to check the context, I was saying those builds aren't going to chase a warrior because 1 stunlock = dead, many do not have passive save my bacon traits within their builds. > > > > > > Thief uses initiative and would have to use shadowstep usually it's only stunbreak to catch the warrior. > > > Mirage will have to use blink and most of if not all it's endurance to chase the warrior leaving it low on defences. > > > Rev would need to chase in shiro and use all it's energy, would have to legend swap on engage leaving 1 stunbreak only. > > > > > > Like it or not chasing a warrior for many classes is a lot more risky than it's worth because of the amount of resources needed to keep up. It's not risky for a soulbeast because they can pew pew it to death from far out of it's range while keeping up via double swoop (12s and 10s CD) and holo only can keep up with rocket boots. For holo they usually just don't bother but in the event they have rocket boots it's 1 cool down. > > > > > > It's about resources needed to chase vs resources you'd have in combat, the warrior is less restricted in it's use of mobility skills while generally having a low cool down on the ones it uses like whirlwind. > > > > Well, you already lost when all you can do is run, and maybe then fight someone who overaggressively chases. But i, as a roamer like to take camps and not just run away from them. So where exactly does that make warrior an effecrive roamer, if he loses in all the other scenarios where he isnt running away. > > Imo your argument does not support your claim that warrior is a top roamer. Not to mention that warrior on the others hand cant keep up with most classes. So while thief etc can actually chase down a warrior to kill him (and might eventually die, when they just chase mindlessly spamming buttons), warrior doesnt rly have that option, because hes not even able to chase down a thief or mesmer or holo or soulbeast. > > Um that's a lot of false conclusions and misinformation you have there. A warrior with bulls charge and greatsword outruns anything except what I stated can keep up, you're mistakenly assuming this means all it does is run from fights and so can't win, that's an incorrect assumption. Warrior can win a fair number of it's fights and scales up very well being outnumbered but the mobility it has allows for it to bail on a fight it's going to lose for the following reasons: > > 1. Too many people are coming. > 2. The other person their fighting is better than them. > 3. The the oven is on fire etc. > > I'm not sure if you play anything but warrior, a holo can never keep up with a warrior without traited rocket boots, seriously go and try. A mesmer requires sword to keep up, if condi mes is running sword it's an easier fight for war, power mes 1 slip up and it's dead, both have equal chances to win. Thief likewise as mentioned has to burn ini and shadowstep to keep up, yes they can chase the war but what do you think happens when the thief has no ini and no stunbreak? I'll give you a clue, it involves a respawn. > > I say what I see, I see holos, soulbeasts, condi mirage, revs and warriors the most for roaming. I tend to find groups of 2-3 warriors or revs running around, the former stunlocks you to oblivion and the latter just kills you with crazy high damage unless you stealth and teleport away. > > Edit: Yes I did mention soulbeast will easily chase and kill the war, the reality is it can do this to any and all classes tbh, no dispute on that. Im not assuming anything, you yourself stated, that warrior can only burst down unwary opponents while they chase, do you deny that? That was your only point in warrior being good. Sorry to tell you, but the range of a skill inst necessarily why someone cant catch somebody else, you can have all the mobility you want if you cant see the opponent you are trying to chase down. Pretty much everyone else has stealth, making it impossible for a warrior to apply the pressure while Chasing a stealthed enemy to kill them. Warrior has no real kill pressure on any of those classes, if they are played correctly, period. A warrior that still has bullscharge and all gs skills up to run away knew he would lose the fight 100%, what does that tell you about the state of the class? Your arguments are not in favor of warrior, they rather deepen the lack of its possibilities even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > > > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > > > > > > > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > > > > > > > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > > > > > > > > * Trailblazer stats > > > > > > > > > * PvE sigil options > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead. You tend to see them in small numbers duo to 5 a lot too because of the sustain with MMR, Adrenal healing, mobility and sheer amount of CC. > > > > > > > > > > > > As I say this is my experience in T1-T2 EU, your mileage may vary. > > > > > > > > > > Ok. > > > > > „One stunlock = dead“ > > > > > And how can a warrior archive this stunlock without help from someone else? > > > > > > > > > > Sure a Warrior could do that to a zergling but that doesn’t really count because zergling builds are not made for small scall fights. > > > > > > > > > > You should only compare roaming build against roaming build. > > > > > > > > > > Tell me. > > > > > On equal skill level, who would win: > > > > > Mirage Vs Warrior > > > > > Soulbeast Vs Warrior > > > > > Deadeye Vs Warrior > > > > > Holo Vs Warrior > > > > > > > > > > Also: How on earth can a Spellbreaker do this much dmg without discipline and berserker power? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You might want to check the context, I was saying those builds aren't going to chase a warrior because 1 stunlock = dead, many do not have passive save my bacon traits within their builds. > > > > > > > > Thief uses initiative and would have to use shadowstep usually it's only stunbreak to catch the warrior. > > > > Mirage will have to use blink and most of if not all it's endurance to chase the warrior leaving it low on defences. > > > > Rev would need to chase in shiro and use all it's energy, would have to legend swap on engage leaving 1 stunbreak only. > > > > > > > > Like it or not chasing a warrior for many classes is a lot more risky than it's worth because of the amount of resources needed to keep up. It's not risky for a soulbeast because they can pew pew it to death from far out of it's range while keeping up via double swoop (12s and 10s CD) and holo only can keep up with rocket boots. For holo they usually just don't bother but in the event they have rocket boots it's 1 cool down. > > > > > > > > It's about resources needed to chase vs resources you'd have in combat, the warrior is less restricted in it's use of mobility skills while generally having a low cool down on the ones it uses like whirlwind. > > > > > > Well, you already lost when all you can do is run, and maybe then fight someone who overaggressively chases. But i, as a roamer like to take camps and not just run away from them. So where exactly does that make warrior an effecrive roamer, if he loses in all the other scenarios where he isnt running away. > > > Imo your argument does not support your claim that warrior is a top roamer. Not to mention that warrior on the others hand cant keep up with most classes. So while thief etc can actually chase down a warrior to kill him (and might eventually die, when they just chase mindlessly spamming buttons), warrior doesnt rly have that option, because hes not even able to chase down a thief or mesmer or holo or soulbeast. > > > > Um that's a lot of false conclusions and misinformation you have there. A warrior with bulls charge and greatsword outruns anything except what I stated can keep up, you're mistakenly assuming this means all it does is run from fights and so can't win, that's an incorrect assumption. Warrior can win a fair number of it's fights and scales up very well being outnumbered but the mobility it has allows for it to bail on a fight it's going to lose for the following reasons: > > > > 1. Too many people are coming. > > 2. The other person their fighting is better than them. > > 3. The the oven is on fire etc. > > > > I'm not sure if you play anything but warrior, a holo can never keep up with a warrior without traited rocket boots, seriously go and try. A mesmer requires sword to keep up, if condi mes is running sword it's an easier fight for war, power mes 1 slip up and it's dead, both have equal chances to win. Thief likewise as mentioned has to burn ini and shadowstep to keep up, yes they can chase the war but what do you think happens when the thief has no ini and no stunbreak? I'll give you a clue, it involves a respawn. > > > > I say what I see, I see holos, soulbeasts, condi mirage, revs and warriors the most for roaming. I tend to find groups of 2-3 warriors or revs running around, the former stunlocks you to oblivion and the latter just kills you with crazy high damage unless you stealth and teleport away. > > > > Edit: Yes I did mention soulbeast will easily chase and kill the war, the reality is it can do this to any and all classes tbh, no dispute on that. > > Im not assuming anything, you yourself stated, that warrior can only burst down unwary opponents while they chase, do you deny that? That was your only point in warrior being good. > Sorry to tell you, but the range of a skill inst necessarily why someone cant catch somebody else, you can have all the mobility you want if you cant see the opponent you are trying to chase down. Pretty much everyone else has stealth, making it impossible for a warrior to apply the pressure while Chasing a stealthed enemy to kill them. > > Warrior has no real kill pressure on any of those classes, if they are played correctly, period. > A warrior that still has bullscharge and all gs skills up to run away knew he would lose the fight 100%, what does that tell you about the state of the class? > > Your arguments are not in favor of warrior, they rather deepen the lack of its possibilities even further. Yes please do show me where I explicitly say "that warrior can only burst down unwary opponents while they chase" in those words exactly please. I stated what I see the most for roaming, warrior is high on the list because ability to GTFO from a situation going bad is the biggest factor for most in WvW roaming or you get steamrolled by hungry zergs and gankers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > > > > > > > > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > > > > > > > > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > > > > > > > > > * Trailblazer stats > > > > > > > > > > * PvE sigil options > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead. You tend to see them in small numbers duo to 5 a lot too because of the sustain with MMR, Adrenal healing, mobility and sheer amount of CC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I say this is my experience in T1-T2 EU, your mileage may vary. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok. > > > > > > „One stunlock = dead“ > > > > > > And how can a warrior archive this stunlock without help from someone else? > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure a Warrior could do that to a zergling but that doesn’t really count because zergling builds are not made for small scall fights. > > > > > > > > > > > > You should only compare roaming build against roaming build. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tell me. > > > > > > On equal skill level, who would win: > > > > > > Mirage Vs Warrior > > > > > > Soulbeast Vs Warrior > > > > > > Deadeye Vs Warrior > > > > > > Holo Vs Warrior > > > > > > > > > > > > Also: How on earth can a Spellbreaker do this much dmg without discipline and berserker power? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You might want to check the context, I was saying those builds aren't going to chase a warrior because 1 stunlock = dead, many do not have passive save my bacon traits within their builds. > > > > > > > > > > Thief uses initiative and would have to use shadowstep usually it's only stunbreak to catch the warrior. > > > > > Mirage will have to use blink and most of if not all it's endurance to chase the warrior leaving it low on defences. > > > > > Rev would need to chase in shiro and use all it's energy, would have to legend swap on engage leaving 1 stunbreak only. > > > > > > > > > > Like it or not chasing a warrior for many classes is a lot more risky than it's worth because of the amount of resources needed to keep up. It's not risky for a soulbeast because they can pew pew it to death from far out of it's range while keeping up via double swoop (12s and 10s CD) and holo only can keep up with rocket boots. For holo they usually just don't bother but in the event they have rocket boots it's 1 cool down. > > > > > > > > > > It's about resources needed to chase vs resources you'd have in combat, the warrior is less restricted in it's use of mobility skills while generally having a low cool down on the ones it uses like whirlwind. > > > > > > > > Well, you already lost when all you can do is run, and maybe then fight someone who overaggressively chases. But i, as a roamer like to take camps and not just run away from them. So where exactly does that make warrior an effecrive roamer, if he loses in all the other scenarios where he isnt running away. > > > > Imo your argument does not support your claim that warrior is a top roamer. Not to mention that warrior on the others hand cant keep up with most classes. So while thief etc can actually chase down a warrior to kill him (and might eventually die, when they just chase mindlessly spamming buttons), warrior doesnt rly have that option, because hes not even able to chase down a thief or mesmer or holo or soulbeast. > > > > > > Um that's a lot of false conclusions and misinformation you have there. A warrior with bulls charge and greatsword outruns anything except what I stated can keep up, you're mistakenly assuming this means all it does is run from fights and so can't win, that's an incorrect assumption. Warrior can win a fair number of it's fights and scales up very well being outnumbered but the mobility it has allows for it to bail on a fight it's going to lose for the following reasons: > > > > > > 1. Too many people are coming. > > > 2. The other person their fighting is better than them. > > > 3. The the oven is on fire etc. > > > > > > I'm not sure if you play anything but warrior, a holo can never keep up with a warrior without traited rocket boots, seriously go and try. A mesmer requires sword to keep up, if condi mes is running sword it's an easier fight for war, power mes 1 slip up and it's dead, both have equal chances to win. Thief likewise as mentioned has to burn ini and shadowstep to keep up, yes they can chase the war but what do you think happens when the thief has no ini and no stunbreak? I'll give you a clue, it involves a respawn. > > > > > > I say what I see, I see holos, soulbeasts, condi mirage, revs and warriors the most for roaming. I tend to find groups of 2-3 warriors or revs running around, the former stunlocks you to oblivion and the latter just kills you with crazy high damage unless you stealth and teleport away. > > > > > > Edit: Yes I did mention soulbeast will easily chase and kill the war, the reality is it can do this to any and all classes tbh, no dispute on that. > > > > Im not assuming anything, you yourself stated, that warrior can only burst down unwary opponents while they chase, do you deny that? That was your only point in warrior being good. > > Sorry to tell you, but the range of a skill inst necessarily why someone cant catch somebody else, you can have all the mobility you want if you cant see the opponent you are trying to chase down. Pretty much everyone else has stealth, making it impossible for a warrior to apply the pressure while Chasing a stealthed enemy to kill them. > > > > Warrior has no real kill pressure on any of those classes, if they are played correctly, period. > > A warrior that still has bullscharge and all gs skills up to run away knew he would lose the fight 100%, what does that tell you about the state of the class? > > > > Your arguments are not in favor of warrior, they rather deepen the lack of its possibilities even further. > > Yes please do show me where I explicitly say "that warrior can only burst down unwary opponents while they chase" in those words exactly please. > > I stated what I see the most for roaming, warrior is high on the list because ability to GTFO from a situation going bad is the biggest factor for most in WvW roaming or you get steamrolled by hungry zergs and gankers. "Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead." Endquote Sorry, but this to me sounds like you are saying that warrior only has kill pressure while being chased. Which is kind of true, he has no real kill pressure on those other classes, because they can disengage whenever they want, while the warrior has no chance of chasing them down rly. You know my other points and i wont repeat them. Ofc you see still some warriors running around because its relatively easy to play against kittens, but its not even close to a toptier roamer, from the point of effectivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > > > > > > > > > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > > > > > > > > > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > > > > > > > > > > * Trailblazer stats > > > > > > > > > > > * PvE sigil options > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead. You tend to see them in small numbers duo to 5 a lot too because of the sustain with MMR, Adrenal healing, mobility and sheer amount of CC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I say this is my experience in T1-T2 EU, your mileage may vary. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok. > > > > > > > „One stunlock = dead“ > > > > > > > And how can a warrior archive this stunlock without help from someone else? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure a Warrior could do that to a zergling but that doesn’t really count because zergling builds are not made for small scall fights. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should only compare roaming build against roaming build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tell me. > > > > > > > On equal skill level, who would win: > > > > > > > Mirage Vs Warrior > > > > > > > Soulbeast Vs Warrior > > > > > > > Deadeye Vs Warrior > > > > > > > Holo Vs Warrior > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also: How on earth can a Spellbreaker do this much dmg without discipline and berserker power? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You might want to check the context, I was saying those builds aren't going to chase a warrior because 1 stunlock = dead, many do not have passive save my bacon traits within their builds. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief uses initiative and would have to use shadowstep usually it's only stunbreak to catch the warrior. > > > > > > Mirage will have to use blink and most of if not all it's endurance to chase the warrior leaving it low on defences. > > > > > > Rev would need to chase in shiro and use all it's energy, would have to legend swap on engage leaving 1 stunbreak only. > > > > > > > > > > > > Like it or not chasing a warrior for many classes is a lot more risky than it's worth because of the amount of resources needed to keep up. It's not risky for a soulbeast because they can pew pew it to death from far out of it's range while keeping up via double swoop (12s and 10s CD) and holo only can keep up with rocket boots. For holo they usually just don't bother but in the event they have rocket boots it's 1 cool down. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's about resources needed to chase vs resources you'd have in combat, the warrior is less restricted in it's use of mobility skills while generally having a low cool down on the ones it uses like whirlwind. > > > > > > > > > > Well, you already lost when all you can do is run, and maybe then fight someone who overaggressively chases. But i, as a roamer like to take camps and not just run away from them. So where exactly does that make warrior an effecrive roamer, if he loses in all the other scenarios where he isnt running away. > > > > > Imo your argument does not support your claim that warrior is a top roamer. Not to mention that warrior on the others hand cant keep up with most classes. So while thief etc can actually chase down a warrior to kill him (and might eventually die, when they just chase mindlessly spamming buttons), warrior doesnt rly have that option, because hes not even able to chase down a thief or mesmer or holo or soulbeast. > > > > > > > > Um that's a lot of false conclusions and misinformation you have there. A warrior with bulls charge and greatsword outruns anything except what I stated can keep up, you're mistakenly assuming this means all it does is run from fights and so can't win, that's an incorrect assumption. Warrior can win a fair number of it's fights and scales up very well being outnumbered but the mobility it has allows for it to bail on a fight it's going to lose for the following reasons: > > > > > > > > 1. Too many people are coming. > > > > 2. The other person their fighting is better than them. > > > > 3. The the oven is on fire etc. > > > > > > > > I'm not sure if you play anything but warrior, a holo can never keep up with a warrior without traited rocket boots, seriously go and try. A mesmer requires sword to keep up, if condi mes is running sword it's an easier fight for war, power mes 1 slip up and it's dead, both have equal chances to win. Thief likewise as mentioned has to burn ini and shadowstep to keep up, yes they can chase the war but what do you think happens when the thief has no ini and no stunbreak? I'll give you a clue, it involves a respawn. > > > > > > > > I say what I see, I see holos, soulbeasts, condi mirage, revs and warriors the most for roaming. I tend to find groups of 2-3 warriors or revs running around, the former stunlocks you to oblivion and the latter just kills you with crazy high damage unless you stealth and teleport away. > > > > > > > > Edit: Yes I did mention soulbeast will easily chase and kill the war, the reality is it can do this to any and all classes tbh, no dispute on that. > > > > > > Im not assuming anything, you yourself stated, that warrior can only burst down unwary opponents while they chase, do you deny that? That was your only point in warrior being good. > > > Sorry to tell you, but the range of a skill inst necessarily why someone cant catch somebody else, you can have all the mobility you want if you cant see the opponent you are trying to chase down. Pretty much everyone else has stealth, making it impossible for a warrior to apply the pressure while Chasing a stealthed enemy to kill them. > > > > > > Warrior has no real kill pressure on any of those classes, if they are played correctly, period. > > > A warrior that still has bullscharge and all gs skills up to run away knew he would lose the fight 100%, what does that tell you about the state of the class? > > > > > > Your arguments are not in favor of warrior, they rather deepen the lack of its possibilities even further. > > > > Yes please do show me where I explicitly say "that warrior can only burst down unwary opponents while they chase" in those words exactly please. > > > > I stated what I see the most for roaming, warrior is high on the list because ability to GTFO from a situation going bad is the biggest factor for most in WvW roaming or you get steamrolled by hungry zergs and gankers. > > "Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead." > Endquote > > Sorry, but this to me sounds like you are saying that warrior only has kill pressure while being chased. > > Which is kind of true, he has no real kill pressure on those other classes, because they can disengage whenever they want, while the warrior has no chance of chasing them down rly. > > You know my other points and i wont repeat them. Ofc you see still some warriors running around because its relatively easy to play against kittens, but its not even close to a toptier roamer, from the point of effectivity. Now tell me which part of that is where **I** say that "They can **only** kill while being chased"? That's the thing, I haven't said that they're terrible fighters. Sure they're not stupidly broken like when full counter was at it's prime or MMR was 5 endurance per stack of might but to say they have no kill pressure is woefully dishonest especially if they have support or other people with them, remember magebane isn't nerfed in WvW so that build is as viable as it ever was. Will a warrior beat a power soulbeast, holo, rev, thief or condi mirage in a 1v1 at equal skill? Not likely but the holo and mirage can't chase without traited rocket boots and sword respectively reducing their combat ability vs warrior. Rev and thief (thief is the most risky 2 hits and they die) would need resources to do so and as already said isn't worth the risk unless part of a gank. Soulbeast is flat out busted and we all know that. However there's more than those 5 builds running around in WvW isn't there (that's also not addressing the massive skill gaps you encounter) and warrior can fight and kill them as well as it ever could while easily being able to leave if the fight starts going south. As I say the ability to leave a fight going bad is one of the biggest factors for roaming and in that regard warrior is very good. Like it or not I see more warriors than I see condi mirages, that doesn't mean mirage is weak and can't win fights, it just means people don't run it as much, I assume it's because the disengage from staff/axe builds isn't as straight forward so many try it, get outnumbered and die repeatedly. It's also worth saying I see soulbeasts, holos and thieves at almost double the rate of warriors and mesmers, with soulbeasts making up the vast majority. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magebane_Tether Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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