yann.1946 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > So you shouldn't be able the software tool then? This is the perfect reason why it's not a bad thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > The tool allows for informed action. The toxicity is player behavior and not okay. You are literally blaming a tool for incorrect behvior (which was present before the tool was available fyi). > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > > So you are advocating to remove all those tools you have because some people can not work with them? Sounds pretty insane but sure, if you seriously are in FAVOR of removing tools developers have at their disposal then I guess we can agree that damage meters should be removed. Somehow I don't think that is what you were going for was it? Aka your comparison is bad. lol. If i was running a hackathon, the purpose of the group is to have fun, and get the job done, so yes in this context i would **NOT** be running enterprise level metric tools. It's all about context. To go back to the olympics analogy, you would not have an olympic coach teaching a social track and field group in 'olympic' mode, ie demanding olympic level performance and diet and behaviours, wrong context. In fact, if he did that group would probably die. context is king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > > > > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > > > > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > > > The tool allows for informed action. The toxicity is player behavior and not okay. You are literally blaming a tool for incorrect behvior (which was present before the tool was available fyi). > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > > > > > So you are advocating to remove all those tools you have because some people can not work with them? Sounds pretty insane but sure, if you seriously are in FAVOR of removing tools developers have at their disposal then I guess we can agree that damage meters should be removed. Somehow I don't think that is what you were going for was it? Aka your comparison is bad. > > lol. If i was running a hackathon, the purpose of the group is to have fun, and get the job done, so yes in this context i would NOT be running enterprise level metric tools. It's all about context. > > To go back to the olympics analogy, you would not have an olympic coach teaching a social track and field group in 'olympic' mode, ie demanding olympic level performance and diet and behaviours, wrong context. In fact, if he did that group would probably die. > > context is king. and if all content could be completed with no skill involved then people would not care. We have that, it's called open world and people do not care. The moment failure chance gets added into the equation, that equation shifts. The more difficult the content, the more restrictive individuals get. There is a reason for ping KP for CM or LI and KP for raids. That's before you even get into a situation where a damage meter might see use. Past results of maximizing and toxic behavior: - removal of classes from group content based on class (especially ranger and necromancer) - demand for certain AP, level, gear pings for dungeons/fractals The behavior you attribute to damage meters existed long before damage meters existed. Now players can be judged or not judged based on performance. Yes, context is king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > > > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > > > > > > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > > > > > > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > > > > > The tool allows for informed action. The toxicity is player behavior and not okay. You are literally blaming a tool for incorrect behvior (which was present before the tool was available fyi). > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > > > > > > > > So you are advocating to remove all those tools you have because some people can not work with them? Sounds pretty insane but sure, if you seriously are in FAVOR of removing tools developers have at their disposal then I guess we can agree that damage meters should be removed. Somehow I don't think that is what you were going for was it? Aka your comparison is bad. > > > > lol. If i was running a hackathon, the purpose of the group is to have fun, and get the job done, so yes in this context i would NOT be running enterprise level metric tools. It's all about context. > > > > To go back to the olympics analogy, you would not have an olympic coach teaching a social track and field group in 'olympic' mode, ie demanding olympic level performance and diet and behaviours, wrong context. In fact, if he did that group would probably die. > > > > context is king. > > and if all content could be completed with no skill involved then people would not care. We have that, it's called open world and people do not care. > > The moment failure chance gets added into the equation, that equation shifts. The more difficult the content, the more restrictive individuals get. There is a reason for ping KP for CM or LI and KP for raids. That's before you even get into a situation where a damage meter might see use. > > Past results of maximizing and toxic behavior: > - removal of classes from group content based on class (especially ranger and necromancer) > - demand for certain AP, level, gear pings for dungeons/fractals > > The behavior you attribute to damage meters existed long before damage meters existed. Now players can be judged or not judged based on performance. > > Yes, context is king. you bring in 'no skill' as a strawman. ive given you the logic why tools are bad when running out of context, its not just about bad users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Players are within their right to exclude whoever they want from their own groups based on whatever criteria they choose. If you prefer to play with those that don’t want optimized runs using DPS meters then specify that clearly in **your own** LFG post. It’s not toxic for players to have their own criteria in who they want to group with nor is it to remove those that choose to ignore it. I see more toxicity from those who feel entitled to join any group they want and then have to be vocal when they’re rejected. We saw this very thing back during CoF P1 farms where LFG’s were clear on what they wanted but some players ignored that and joined anyway. When they got kicked they would then complain and complain about how toxic those speedrunners were. **Toxicity can come from both sides.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > > > > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > > > > > > > > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > > > > > > > > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > > > > > > > The tool allows for informed action. The toxicity is player behavior and not okay. You are literally blaming a tool for incorrect behvior (which was present before the tool was available fyi). > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are advocating to remove all those tools you have because some people can not work with them? Sounds pretty insane but sure, if you seriously are in FAVOR of removing tools developers have at their disposal then I guess we can agree that damage meters should be removed. Somehow I don't think that is what you were going for was it? Aka your comparison is bad. > > > > > > lol. If i was running a hackathon, the purpose of the group is to have fun, and get the job done, so yes in this context i would NOT be running enterprise level metric tools. It's all about context. > > > > > > To go back to the olympics analogy, you would not have an olympic coach teaching a social track and field group in 'olympic' mode, ie demanding olympic level performance and diet and behaviours, wrong context. In fact, if he did that group would probably die. > > > > > > context is king. > > > > and if all content could be completed with no skill involved then people would not care. We have that, it's called open world and people do not care. > > > > The moment failure chance gets added into the equation, that equation shifts. The more difficult the content, the more restrictive individuals get. There is a reason for ping KP for CM or LI and KP for raids. That's before you even get into a situation where a damage meter might see use. > > > > Past results of maximizing and toxic behavior: > > - removal of classes from group content based on class (especially ranger and necromancer) > > - demand for certain AP, level, gear pings for dungeons/fractals > > > > The behavior you attribute to damage meters existed long before damage meters existed. Now players can be judged or not judged based on performance. > > > > Yes, context is king. > > you bring in 'no skill' as a strawman. Sure, what ever makes your argument sound right in your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > > > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > > > > > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > The tool allows for informed action. The toxicity is player behavior and not okay. You are literally blaming a tool for incorrect behvior (which was present before the tool was available fyi). > > > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are advocating to remove all those tools you have because some people can not work with them? Sounds pretty insane but sure, if you seriously are in FAVOR of removing tools developers have at their disposal then I guess we can agree that damage meters should be removed. Somehow I don't think that is what you were going for was it? Aka your comparison is bad. > > > > > > > > lol. If i was running a hackathon, the purpose of the group is to have fun, and get the job done, so yes in this context i would NOT be running enterprise level metric tools. It's all about context. > > > > > > > > To go back to the olympics analogy, you would not have an olympic coach teaching a social track and field group in 'olympic' mode, ie demanding olympic level performance and diet and behaviours, wrong context. In fact, if he did that group would probably die. > > > > > > > > context is king. > > > > > > and if all content could be completed with no skill involved then people would not care. We have that, it's called open world and people do not care. > > > > > > The moment failure chance gets added into the equation, that equation shifts. The more difficult the content, the more restrictive individuals get. There is a reason for ping KP for CM or LI and KP for raids. That's before you even get into a situation where a damage meter might see use. > > > > > > Past results of maximizing and toxic behavior: > > > - removal of classes from group content based on class (especially ranger and necromancer) > > > - demand for certain AP, level, gear pings for dungeons/fractals > > > > > > The behavior you attribute to damage meters existed long before damage meters existed. Now players can be judged or not judged based on performance. > > > > > > Yes, context is king. > > > > you bring in 'no skill' as a strawman. > > Sure, what ever makes your argument sound right in your mind. you said it not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > Players are within their right to exclude whoever they want from their own groups based on whatever criteria they choose. If you prefer to play with those that don’t want optimized runs using DPS meters then specify that clearly in **your own** LFG post. > > It’s not toxic for players to have their own criteria in who they want to group with nor is it to remove those that choose to ignore it. I see more toxicity from those who feel entitled to join any group they want and then have to be vocal when they’re rejected. > > We saw this very thing back during CoF P1 farms where LFG’s were clear on what they wanted but some players ignored that and joined anyway. When they got kicked they would then complain and complain about how toxic those speedrunners were. > > **Toxicity can come from both sides.** another straw man that's ALWAYS brought up., obviously we are not talking about groups that are set up with specific criteria. there was bad behaviour before meters. What i'm saying is metrics used out of context is bad metrics, it makes the problem worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > > > > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > > > > > > > > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > > > > > > > > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > > > > > > > The tool allows for informed action. The toxicity is player behavior and not okay. You are literally blaming a tool for incorrect behvior (which was present before the tool was available fyi). > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are advocating to remove all those tools you have because some people can not work with them? Sounds pretty insane but sure, if you seriously are in FAVOR of removing tools developers have at their disposal then I guess we can agree that damage meters should be removed. Somehow I don't think that is what you were going for was it? Aka your comparison is bad. > > > > > > lol. If i was running a hackathon, the purpose of the group is to have fun, and get the job done, so yes in this context i would NOT be running enterprise level metric tools. It's all about context. > > > > > > To go back to the olympics analogy, you would not have an olympic coach teaching a social track and field group in 'olympic' mode, ie demanding olympic level performance and diet and behaviours, wrong context. In fact, if he did that group would probably die. > > > > > > context is king. > > > > and if all content could be completed with no skill involved then people would not care. We have that, it's called open world and people do not care. > > > > The moment failure chance gets added into the equation, that equation shifts. The more difficult the content, the more restrictive individuals get. There is a reason for ping KP for CM or LI and KP for raids. That's before you even get into a situation where a damage meter might see use. > > > > Past results of maximizing and toxic behavior: > > - removal of classes from group content based on class (especially ranger and necromancer) > > - demand for certain AP, level, gear pings for dungeons/fractals > > > > The behavior you attribute to damage meters existed long before damage meters existed. Now players can be judged or not judged based on performance. > > > > Yes, context is king. > > you bring in 'no skill' as a strawman. ive given you the logic why tools are bad when running out of context, its not just about bad users. and your comparison was plain bad as I had explained since I doubt you were advocating for a complete removal of tools. Damage meters are not needed for open world content is the context to your hackathon comparison. I've given you context of how players in this game (and quite frankly in any other game I have played) act with concrete examples from this games past and current player base showing how the behavior you attributed to damage meters was and is present without them. Feel free to ignore them, I don't feel like having to regurgitate something which has been discussed a bazillion times by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > > > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > > > > > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > The tool allows for informed action. The toxicity is player behavior and not okay. You are literally blaming a tool for incorrect behvior (which was present before the tool was available fyi). > > > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are advocating to remove all those tools you have because some people can not work with them? Sounds pretty insane but sure, if you seriously are in FAVOR of removing tools developers have at their disposal then I guess we can agree that damage meters should be removed. Somehow I don't think that is what you were going for was it? Aka your comparison is bad. > > > > > > > > lol. If i was running a hackathon, the purpose of the group is to have fun, and get the job done, so yes in this context i would NOT be running enterprise level metric tools. It's all about context. > > > > > > > > To go back to the olympics analogy, you would not have an olympic coach teaching a social track and field group in 'olympic' mode, ie demanding olympic level performance and diet and behaviours, wrong context. In fact, if he did that group would probably die. > > > > > > > > context is king. > > > > > > and if all content could be completed with no skill involved then people would not care. We have that, it's called open world and people do not care. > > > > > > The moment failure chance gets added into the equation, that equation shifts. The more difficult the content, the more restrictive individuals get. There is a reason for ping KP for CM or LI and KP for raids. That's before you even get into a situation where a damage meter might see use. > > > > > > Past results of maximizing and toxic behavior: > > > - removal of classes from group content based on class (especially ranger and necromancer) > > > - demand for certain AP, level, gear pings for dungeons/fractals > > > > > > The behavior you attribute to damage meters existed long before damage meters existed. Now players can be judged or not judged based on performance. > > > > > > Yes, context is king. > > > > you bring in 'no skill' as a strawman. ive given you the logic why tools are bad when running out of context, its not just about bad users. > > and your comparison was plain bad as I had explained since I doubt you were advocating for a complete removal of tools. Damage meters are not needed for open world content is the context to your hackathon comparison. > > I've given you context of how players in this game (and quite frankly in any other game I have played) act with concrete examples from this games past and current player base showing how the behavior you attributed to damage meters was and is present without them. Feel free to ignore them, I don't feel like having to regurgitate something which has been discussed a bazillion times by now. and i said there are scenarios where you would indeed remove metric tools when they are not appropriate in real life scenarios. Just like 5 man (noone is talking about meters in open world here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > > > > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > > > > > > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > The tool allows for informed action. The toxicity is player behavior and not okay. You are literally blaming a tool for incorrect behvior (which was present before the tool was available fyi). > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are advocating to remove all those tools you have because some people can not work with them? Sounds pretty insane but sure, if you seriously are in FAVOR of removing tools developers have at their disposal then I guess we can agree that damage meters should be removed. Somehow I don't think that is what you were going for was it? Aka your comparison is bad. > > > > > > > > > > lol. If i was running a hackathon, the purpose of the group is to have fun, and get the job done, so yes in this context i would NOT be running enterprise level metric tools. It's all about context. > > > > > > > > > > To go back to the olympics analogy, you would not have an olympic coach teaching a social track and field group in 'olympic' mode, ie demanding olympic level performance and diet and behaviours, wrong context. In fact, if he did that group would probably die. > > > > > > > > > > context is king. > > > > > > > > and if all content could be completed with no skill involved then people would not care. We have that, it's called open world and people do not care. > > > > > > > > The moment failure chance gets added into the equation, that equation shifts. The more difficult the content, the more restrictive individuals get. There is a reason for ping KP for CM or LI and KP for raids. That's before you even get into a situation where a damage meter might see use. > > > > > > > > Past results of maximizing and toxic behavior: > > > > - removal of classes from group content based on class (especially ranger and necromancer) > > > > - demand for certain AP, level, gear pings for dungeons/fractals > > > > > > > > The behavior you attribute to damage meters existed long before damage meters existed. Now players can be judged or not judged based on performance. > > > > > > > > Yes, context is king. > > > > > > you bring in 'no skill' as a strawman. ive given you the logic why tools are bad when running out of context, its not just about bad users. > > > > and your comparison was plain bad as I had explained since I doubt you were advocating for a complete removal of tools. Damage meters are not needed for open world content is the context to your hackathon comparison. > > > > I've given you context of how players in this game (and quite frankly in any other game I have played) act with concrete examples from this games past and current player base showing how the behavior you attributed to damage meters was and is present without them. Feel free to ignore them, I don't feel like having to regurgitate something which has been discussed a bazillion times by now. > > and i said there are scenarios where you would indeed remove metric tools when they are not appropriate in real life scenarios. Just like 5 man (noone is talking about meters in open world here) Except that failure in 5 man content is a thing, and the more difficult it gets, the higher this perceived problem gets. As such players will ALWAYS find a way to optimize their success chances (and yes, some will be toxic doing so, which is no excuse). I prefer this optimization to be based on actual numerical facts and not assumptions (as it has been in this very game in the past). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > > > > > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > > > > > > > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The tool allows for informed action. The toxicity is player behavior and not okay. You are literally blaming a tool for incorrect behvior (which was present before the tool was available fyi). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are advocating to remove all those tools you have because some people can not work with them? Sounds pretty insane but sure, if you seriously are in FAVOR of removing tools developers have at their disposal then I guess we can agree that damage meters should be removed. Somehow I don't think that is what you were going for was it? Aka your comparison is bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > lol. If i was running a hackathon, the purpose of the group is to have fun, and get the job done, so yes in this context i would NOT be running enterprise level metric tools. It's all about context. > > > > > > > > > > > > To go back to the olympics analogy, you would not have an olympic coach teaching a social track and field group in 'olympic' mode, ie demanding olympic level performance and diet and behaviours, wrong context. In fact, if he did that group would probably die. > > > > > > > > > > > > context is king. > > > > > > > > > > and if all content could be completed with no skill involved then people would not care. We have that, it's called open world and people do not care. > > > > > > > > > > The moment failure chance gets added into the equation, that equation shifts. The more difficult the content, the more restrictive individuals get. There is a reason for ping KP for CM or LI and KP for raids. That's before you even get into a situation where a damage meter might see use. > > > > > > > > > > Past results of maximizing and toxic behavior: > > > > > - removal of classes from group content based on class (especially ranger and necromancer) > > > > > - demand for certain AP, level, gear pings for dungeons/fractals > > > > > > > > > > The behavior you attribute to damage meters existed long before damage meters existed. Now players can be judged or not judged based on performance. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, context is king. > > > > > > > > you bring in 'no skill' as a strawman. ive given you the logic why tools are bad when running out of context, its not just about bad users. > > > > > > and your comparison was plain bad as I had explained since I doubt you were advocating for a complete removal of tools. Damage meters are not needed for open world content is the context to your hackathon comparison. > > > > > > I've given you context of how players in this game (and quite frankly in any other game I have played) act with concrete examples from this games past and current player base showing how the behavior you attributed to damage meters was and is present without them. Feel free to ignore them, I don't feel like having to regurgitate something which has been discussed a bazillion times by now. > > > > and i said there are scenarios where you would indeed remove metric tools when they are not appropriate in real life scenarios. Just like 5 man (noone is talking about meters in open world here) > > Except that failure in 5 man content is a thing, and the more difficult it gets, the higher this perceived problem gets. As such players will ALWAYS find a way to optimize their success chances (and yes, some will be toxic doing so, which is no excuse). I prefer this optimization to be based on actual numerical facts and not assumptions (as it has been in this very game in the past). exactly, or rather exactly the inappropriate skew im referring to, you can't see it because you are focused on an aspect taken out of context, min maxing dps in a 5 man pug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > Players are within their right to exclude whoever they want from their own groups based on whatever criteria they choose. If you prefer to play with those that don’t want optimized runs using DPS meters then specify that clearly in **your own** LFG post. > > > > It’s not toxic for players to have their own criteria in who they want to group with nor is it to remove those that choose to ignore it. I see more toxicity from those who feel entitled to join any group they want and then have to be vocal when they’re rejected. > > > > We saw this very thing back during CoF P1 farms where LFG’s were clear on what they wanted but some players ignored that and joined anyway. When they got kicked they would then complain and complain about how toxic those speedrunners were. > > > > **Toxicity can come from both sides.** > > another straw man that's ALWAYS brought up., obviously we are not talking about groups that are set up with specific criteria. > > there was bad behaviour before meters. What i'm saying is metrics used out of context is bad metrics, it makes the problem worse. People are free to use whatever criteria that they want regardless as to whether you agree with their usage or accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > > > > > > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The tool allows for informed action. The toxicity is player behavior and not okay. You are literally blaming a tool for incorrect behvior (which was present before the tool was available fyi). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are advocating to remove all those tools you have because some people can not work with them? Sounds pretty insane but sure, if you seriously are in FAVOR of removing tools developers have at their disposal then I guess we can agree that damage meters should be removed. Somehow I don't think that is what you were going for was it? Aka your comparison is bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol. If i was running a hackathon, the purpose of the group is to have fun, and get the job done, so yes in this context i would NOT be running enterprise level metric tools. It's all about context. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To go back to the olympics analogy, you would not have an olympic coach teaching a social track and field group in 'olympic' mode, ie demanding olympic level performance and diet and behaviours, wrong context. In fact, if he did that group would probably die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > context is king. > > > > > > > > > > > > and if all content could be completed with no skill involved then people would not care. We have that, it's called open world and people do not care. > > > > > > > > > > > > The moment failure chance gets added into the equation, that equation shifts. The more difficult the content, the more restrictive individuals get. There is a reason for ping KP for CM or LI and KP for raids. That's before you even get into a situation where a damage meter might see use. > > > > > > > > > > > > Past results of maximizing and toxic behavior: > > > > > > - removal of classes from group content based on class (especially ranger and necromancer) > > > > > > - demand for certain AP, level, gear pings for dungeons/fractals > > > > > > > > > > > > The behavior you attribute to damage meters existed long before damage meters existed. Now players can be judged or not judged based on performance. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, context is king. > > > > > > > > > > you bring in 'no skill' as a strawman. ive given you the logic why tools are bad when running out of context, its not just about bad users. > > > > > > > > and your comparison was plain bad as I had explained since I doubt you were advocating for a complete removal of tools. Damage meters are not needed for open world content is the context to your hackathon comparison. > > > > > > > > I've given you context of how players in this game (and quite frankly in any other game I have played) act with concrete examples from this games past and current player base showing how the behavior you attributed to damage meters was and is present without them. Feel free to ignore them, I don't feel like having to regurgitate something which has been discussed a bazillion times by now. > > > > > > and i said there are scenarios where you would indeed remove metric tools when they are not appropriate in real life scenarios. Just like 5 man (noone is talking about meters in open world here) > > > > Except that failure in 5 man content is a thing, and the more difficult it gets, the higher this perceived problem gets. As such players will ALWAYS find a way to optimize their success chances (and yes, some will be toxic doing so, which is no excuse). I prefer this optimization to be based on actual numerical facts and not assumptions (as it has been in this very game in the past). > > exactly, or rather exactly the inappropriate skew im referring to, you can't see it because you are focused on an aspect taken out of context, min maxing dps in a 5 man pug. It's not min/maxing when success or high chance of success is a goal. Your fatal incorrect assumption is that all content can be completed. It can not. Depending on player skill, this drop off starts at different stages. It's not min/maxing when a group with performance of player A would not be able to complete the say fractal. 1 hour or longer session of PUG groups on slime in Thaumanova is a prime example. What you also tend to ignore is that replacement or difference in player skill is often very vast. Players do not remove someone because they are 1-2k dps behind someone else. They replace them when they are completely useless. I'vee seen dps players not even bring 5k dps to regular T4 fractals. The last one 3 days ago on DH. The group was strong enough despite his dps and I messaged him at the end ( as to not call him out and running heal FB I was sure we would manage). Turns out he was running full soldier gear with incorrect runes and sigils. I gave him some advice on how to remain survivable enough but optimize his damage. Suffice to say, if the other 2 dps had not brought 15-20k each, he would have gotten removed or I would have left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The tool allows for informed action. The toxicity is player behavior and not okay. You are literally blaming a tool for incorrect behvior (which was present before the tool was available fyi). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are advocating to remove all those tools you have because some people can not work with them? Sounds pretty insane but sure, if you seriously are in FAVOR of removing tools developers have at their disposal then I guess we can agree that damage meters should be removed. Somehow I don't think that is what you were going for was it? Aka your comparison is bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol. If i was running a hackathon, the purpose of the group is to have fun, and get the job done, so yes in this context i would NOT be running enterprise level metric tools. It's all about context. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To go back to the olympics analogy, you would not have an olympic coach teaching a social track and field group in 'olympic' mode, ie demanding olympic level performance and diet and behaviours, wrong context. In fact, if he did that group would probably die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > context is king. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and if all content could be completed with no skill involved then people would not care. We have that, it's called open world and people do not care. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The moment failure chance gets added into the equation, that equation shifts. The more difficult the content, the more restrictive individuals get. There is a reason for ping KP for CM or LI and KP for raids. That's before you even get into a situation where a damage meter might see use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Past results of maximizing and toxic behavior: > > > > > > > - removal of classes from group content based on class (especially ranger and necromancer) > > > > > > > - demand for certain AP, level, gear pings for dungeons/fractals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The behavior you attribute to damage meters existed long before damage meters existed. Now players can be judged or not judged based on performance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, context is king. > > > > > > > > > > > > you bring in 'no skill' as a strawman. ive given you the logic why tools are bad when running out of context, its not just about bad users. > > > > > > > > > > and your comparison was plain bad as I had explained since I doubt you were advocating for a complete removal of tools. Damage meters are not needed for open world content is the context to your hackathon comparison. > > > > > > > > > > I've given you context of how players in this game (and quite frankly in any other game I have played) act with concrete examples from this games past and current player base showing how the behavior you attributed to damage meters was and is present without them. Feel free to ignore them, I don't feel like having to regurgitate something which has been discussed a bazillion times by now. > > > > > > > > and i said there are scenarios where you would indeed remove metric tools when they are not appropriate in real life scenarios. Just like 5 man (noone is talking about meters in open world here) > > > > > > Except that failure in 5 man content is a thing, and the more difficult it gets, the higher this perceived problem gets. As such players will ALWAYS find a way to optimize their success chances (and yes, some will be toxic doing so, which is no excuse). I prefer this optimization to be based on actual numerical facts and not assumptions (as it has been in this very game in the past). > > > > exactly, or rather exactly the inappropriate skew im referring to, you can't see it because you are focused on an aspect taken out of context, min maxing dps in a 5 man pug. > > It's not min/maxing when success or high chance of success is a goal. Your fatal incorrect assumption is that all content can be completed. It can not. Depending on player skill, this drop off starts at different stages. It's not min/maxing when a group with performance of player A would not be able to complete the say fractal. 1 hour or longer session of PUG groups on slime in Thaumanova is a prime example. > > What you also tend to ignore is that replacement or difference in player skill is often very vast. Players do not remove someone because they are 1-2k dps behind someone else. They replace them when they are completely useless. I'vee seen dps players not even bring 5k dps to regular T4 fractals. The last one 3 days ago on DH. The group was strong enough despite his dps and I messaged him at the end ( as to not call him out and running heal FB I was sure we would manage). Turns out he was running full soldier gear with incorrect runes and sigils. I gave him some advice on how to remain survivable enough but optimize his damage. Suffice to say, if the other 2 dps had not brought 15-20k each, he would have gotten removed or I would have left. actually statistically **all** 5 man content apart from top cm are farmed every day and have been farmed for many many years by the general populous. A metric is only valuable if it is valid within a given context, and the context here is content players have happily been farming without the need of raid-centric metrics, and yes that includes lower skilled or players that don't focus on deepeeess. *olympic coach screams at group of kids having fun casually racing in a pool - GOOO FASTER or im lEAVINNGGGGGG!!!!l* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > From my point of view, it looks more like this: Despite being a person with a disability I am bullied into participation in the Olympics. On top of that, I am ridiculed for not being able to. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but in the end, you _are_ participating in olympics. Which brings it to my point again - it's not the meters that are a problem, it's the content itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > raids may be considered 'olympics' but other pve content is not, and that's the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The ultimate question is what does calling out poor dps actually achieve on a non raid environment? nothing, because someone is not suddenly going to switch to a meta build and gear mid pug run because of meter emo - which means its just passive aggressive wasteful nonesense, or just plain ignorant abuse. The tool adds no value and a source of anti social behaviour when it is available and skewing a view on as aspect that is less relevant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The tool allows for informed action. The toxicity is player behavior and not okay. You are literally blaming a tool for incorrect behvior (which was present before the tool was available fyi). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can draw a comparison with software development. In software development we have tools that measure code quality through metrics, and experienced skilled developers use these metrics to weigh up the value of tackling technical debt by evaluating cost v benefit. Inexperienced people however or those who do not have the ability to evaluate the full picture and understand how to user this information in context can make bad choices to fix things that actually has a huge opportunity cost that they can't even see. This is the same as damage meters, people cause disruption to otherwise perfectly viable groups because a tool is being used in the wrong context and focusing on the wrong areas (i.e dps is **NOT** the most important aspect of a 5 man pug) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you are advocating to remove all those tools you have because some people can not work with them? Sounds pretty insane but sure, if you seriously are in FAVOR of removing tools developers have at their disposal then I guess we can agree that damage meters should be removed. Somehow I don't think that is what you were going for was it? Aka your comparison is bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lol. If i was running a hackathon, the purpose of the group is to have fun, and get the job done, so yes in this context i would NOT be running enterprise level metric tools. It's all about context. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To go back to the olympics analogy, you would not have an olympic coach teaching a social track and field group in 'olympic' mode, ie demanding olympic level performance and diet and behaviours, wrong context. In fact, if he did that group would probably die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > context is king. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and if all content could be completed with no skill involved then people would not care. We have that, it's called open world and people do not care. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The moment failure chance gets added into the equation, that equation shifts. The more difficult the content, the more restrictive individuals get. There is a reason for ping KP for CM or LI and KP for raids. That's before you even get into a situation where a damage meter might see use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Past results of maximizing and toxic behavior: > > > > > > > > - removal of classes from group content based on class (especially ranger and necromancer) > > > > > > > > - demand for certain AP, level, gear pings for dungeons/fractals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The behavior you attribute to damage meters existed long before damage meters existed. Now players can be judged or not judged based on performance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, context is king. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you bring in 'no skill' as a strawman. ive given you the logic why tools are bad when running out of context, its not just about bad users. > > > > > > > > > > > > and your comparison was plain bad as I had explained since I doubt you were advocating for a complete removal of tools. Damage meters are not needed for open world content is the context to your hackathon comparison. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've given you context of how players in this game (and quite frankly in any other game I have played) act with concrete examples from this games past and current player base showing how the behavior you attributed to damage meters was and is present without them. Feel free to ignore them, I don't feel like having to regurgitate something which has been discussed a bazillion times by now. > > > > > > > > > > and i said there are scenarios where you would indeed remove metric tools when they are not appropriate in real life scenarios. Just like 5 man (noone is talking about meters in open world here) > > > > > > > > Except that failure in 5 man content is a thing, and the more difficult it gets, the higher this perceived problem gets. As such players will ALWAYS find a way to optimize their success chances (and yes, some will be toxic doing so, which is no excuse). I prefer this optimization to be based on actual numerical facts and not assumptions (as it has been in this very game in the past). > > > > > > exactly, or rather exactly the inappropriate skew im referring to, you can't see it because you are focused on an aspect taken out of context, min maxing dps in a 5 man pug. > > > > It's not min/maxing when success or high chance of success is a goal. Your fatal incorrect assumption is that all content can be completed. It can not. Depending on player skill, this drop off starts at different stages. It's not min/maxing when a group with performance of player A would not be able to complete the say fractal. 1 hour or longer session of PUG groups on slime in Thaumanova is a prime example. > > > > What you also tend to ignore is that replacement or difference in player skill is often very vast. Players do not remove someone because they are 1-2k dps behind someone else. They replace them when they are completely useless. I'vee seen dps players not even bring 5k dps to regular T4 fractals. The last one 3 days ago on DH. The group was strong enough despite his dps and I messaged him at the end ( as to not call him out and running heal FB I was sure we would manage). Turns out he was running full soldier gear with incorrect runes and sigils. I gave him some advice on how to remain survivable enough but optimize his damage. Suffice to say, if the other 2 dps had not brought 15-20k each, he would have gotten removed or I would have left. > > actually statistically **all** 5 man content apart from top cm are farmed every day and have been farmed for many many years by the general populous. A metric is only valuable if it is valid within a given context, and the context here is content players have happily been farming without the need of raid-centric metrics, and yes that includes lower skilled or players that don't focus on deepeeess. > > *olympic coach screams at group of kids having fun casually racing in a pool - GOOO FASTER or im lEAVINNGGGGGG!!!!l* Yes and there is people on the fractal, dungeons and raid boards complaining that they can't complete T4s with the new instabilities even though they have been doing so for the last 1.5 years. Fractals, or at least high tier fractals, have had exclusion in the past before damage meters based on gear and class. You are happily ignoring the groups which do not succeed at the content. Again, your main flaw is you just assume all content will be completed by everyone. That is plain incorrect. That 5k player would never have completed T4s that day if he had been in a group composed of players of his skill level. That's a fact and not some flawed assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > To go back to the olympics analogy, you would not have an olympic coach teaching a social track and field group in 'olympic' mode, ie demanding olympic level performance and diet and behaviours, wrong context. In fact, if he did that group would probably die. > > > > context is king. > > and if all content could be completed with no skill involved then people would not care. We have that, it's called open world and people do not care. > > The moment failure chance gets added into the equation, that equation shifts. The more difficult the content, the more restrictive individuals get. Precisely. DPS meter is one of the tools used to assess your team members if you aren't sure if the groups skill level is enough. It's not the only tool, it's not perfect, but it's still better than some other tools that people were using before. If meters get removed, people using them will simply move to the other, even less precise tools. Players feel the need to use such tools, when the content is difficult enough that it makes them think some group member filtering may be necessary. And toxicity comes when they try to find a target to blame for their group unsatisfying (for them) performance. _Neither_ of those causes is going to disappear with the removal of dps meters. All lack of tools will do is to make people assign the blame more blindly. So, in the end, again, there may be more toxicity in instanced content now than few years ago, but it's not due to dps meters, but simply due to increased average difficulty of said content. > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > there was bad behaviour before meters. What i'm saying is metrics used out of context is bad metrics, it makes the problem worse. Would you rather have those same people use even less relevant metrics "out of context"? Or do you think that the "metrics" are somehow to blame for this? > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > *olympic coach screams at group of kids having fun casually racing in a pool - GOOO FASTER or im lEAVINNGGGGGG!!!!l* Nah, it's more like saying " if you can't swim, you'd better move to the kiddie pool and not stay where you can drown". Because it is a deeper pool, and some of those kids _can't_ swim. Yes, other kids could help carry them, but it only makes things more difficult and less fun for them. Now, if someone starts taking times of people in a summer pool, he is probably a fool. The stopwatch is not to blame for this however. Someone asking for stopwatches to be banned at this pool due to this would be equally ridiculous here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > *olympic coach screams at group of kids **having fun casually **racing in a pool - GOOO FASTER or im lEAVINNGGGGGG!!!!l* And right there is the flaw In your argument. You cannot walk into a someone else's group and expect them to want the same things as you. I can pretty much guarantee that any generic LFG group in T4 wants the exact same thing - to complete the content as quickly as possible, and then move on to other things. Groups that want a casual pace ("having fun casually") or want to complete achievements, or whatever, would (or at least should) have that noted in the description to invite those looking for the same thing, and to advise those who might have different expectations. Joining someone else's group and expecting them to meet your expectations, which deviate from the norm in my opinion, and then raging about the negative backlash is just simply unreasonable. There is nothing wrong with people clearing their dailies as fast as possible. There is nothing wrong with people clearing the content at whatever pace the group prefers. The issue comes from when you mix people of both groups, and who then try to impose their expectations on others. Form your own group - there is room for everyone in this game. In almost 7 months I've ran into exactly 0 toxic players in T4 LFG. I wonder why that is? You can call me some elitist meta snob if you want - completely inaccurate - but that's fine because in reality I'm the guy who finished his T4s + recs 45minutes after reset, had a fun time, and is now working on other things. /shrug Incidentally, in those 7 months, I only installed arcDPS about a month ago, as I was switching to a quasi support/DPS role and was curious as the impact. Everything I've said above applied without the use of a DPS meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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