proud mirage main checking in

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"crewthief.8649" said:

> > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > > 20+ people fighting with 1-2 perma evade condi thief at the moment: Remove this trash ocne after all

> > > >

> > > > Where is 'no skill' mesmer when you need it when you can have only toxic design profession doing all the work at the same time?

> > > >

> > > > (Come to my server and see for yourself- 1-2 perma evade condi thief killing 1-20+ players in 0=5 seconds at the same time

> > > >

> > > > Yup!! let me know when mesmer can do this so we can 'nerf' them

> > > >

> > > > We are tired and are wasting valuable learning time

> > > > Goodbye-going to play competitor healthy competitive game

> > > >

> > > > ((I encourage Anet to come to see it for themselves))-they seem to have gone---stealth traps set everywhere as a laughing stock to them.

> > > >

> > > > Anyhow, bye

> > > >

> > > > This is what a perma condi evade thief look like

> > > > **Condi evade spam thief**

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Why condi thief is bad for GW2

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Haha wow comparing Condi thief to Condi Mirage,u gotta be kidding me. No ones complained about Condi thief for yrs but mirage,think I can find a few recent posts lol. Some players I swear are playing a different game or think something is op if it downs them a few times or if they see a vid of someone doing well with a build. And look yet another mesmer defence relying on deflection to another class. Next it will be mirage is not op look at soulbeast stances and sic em builds lol

> >

> > --this is not a mesmer 'defence', this is about Thief being the worse offender than Mesmer and should take full responsibility for starting the toxic war in the first place.

> >

> >

>

> That's just blatantly false. You've had it out for thief for _years_, I'd thought you would have worked that out at this point. Apparently not.

 

I would understand somewhat if he had issues with perma DE backstabbing him constantly but he seems like he’s on a personal mission to try and get core nerfed even more as if the some s/d or p/d core/dd’s are running around stomping holo’s,soulbeast etc into the ground in duels and group battles lol. Thief can win don’t get me wrong but requires out playing and usually out skilling the opponent,unlike the roll on kB classes he defends or fails to mention. I won’t mention either.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

People saying condi doesn't exist in the meta seem to forget that scourge exists and is still played in tournaments. A big reason a lot of condi builds don't get played isn't just because they lack the cheese of condi mirage, but because if you have a scourge you get plenty enough of condi pressure from that.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> People saying condi doesn't exist in the meta seem to forget that scourge exists and is still played in tournaments. A big reason a lot of condi builds don't get played isn't just because they lack the cheese of condi mirage, but because if you have a scourge you get plenty enough of condi pressure from that.

 

Yeah all them condi eles are just lining up at the arena waiting for scourge to be bopped so they're competitive right?

 

Hmmm maybe not, but those condi engineers, rangers and thieves are surely waiting to take over right?

 

Oh maybe not but surely the ReneGod is going to grace us with the marvel of it's insane condition pressure?

[coro.3176]

If I were balancing things, I'd do this:

 

* Mirage cloak **not usable when CC'd**

* Cut condi cleanse heavily across all classes. I'm talking like **remove every single cleanse trait**, leaving only minimal cleanse (eg. on heal skills + utility skills)

* Tune condi classes in light of this reduced cleanse. To start: **reduce Mirage burst, reduce Scourge cover**. I'd probably leave other classes for now, but they might need to be reduced too.

[Daishi.6027]

> @"Xtrverz.4069" said:

> EDIT IM TALKING ABOUT CONDI people that cry about power are just bad

 

Quoted for truth. But watch A-net screw it up anyways.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> If I were balancing things, I'd do this:

>

> * Mirage cloak **not usable when CC'd**

> * Cut condi cleanse heavily across all classes. I'm talking like **remove every single cleanse trait**, leaving only minimal cleanse (eg. on heal skills + utility skills)

> * Tune condi classes in light of this reduced cleanse. To start: **reduce Mirage burst, reduce Scourge cover**. I'd probably leave other classes for now, but they might need to be reduced too.

 

The winning solution.

 

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> People saying condi doesn't exist in the meta seem to forget that scourge exists and is still played in tournaments. A big reason a lot of condi builds don't get played isn't just because they lack the cheese of condi mirage, but because if you have a scourge you get plenty enough of condi pressure from that.

 

Wow 2/9 classes sometimes run condi. And power reapers are at least as widely run as condition scourges are. Certainly more so in Ranked.

 

Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

 

Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is _zero_.

 

Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once you might as well sit around doing nothing.

 

Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions, maybe more. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

 

I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

 

But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

 

2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition

2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.

12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity

Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus

2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

 

Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

 

Or warriors who have:

Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance

12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina

6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off

Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

 

Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period.

[crewthief.8649]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"coro.3176" said:

> > If I were balancing things, I'd do this:

> >

> > * Mirage cloak **not usable when CC'd**

> > * Cut condi cleanse heavily across all classes. I'm talking like **remove every single cleanse trait**, leaving only minimal cleanse (eg. on heal skills + utility skills)

> > * Tune condi classes in light of this reduced cleanse. To start: **reduce Mirage burst, reduce Scourge cover**. I'd probably leave other classes for now, but they might need to be reduced too.

>

> The winning solution.

>

> > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > People saying condi doesn't exist in the meta seem to forget that scourge exists and is still played in tournaments. A big reason a lot of condi builds don't get played isn't just because they lack the cheese of condi mirage, but because if you have a scourge you get plenty enough of condi pressure from that.

>

> Wow 2/9 classes sometimes run condi. And power reapers are at least as widely run as condition scourges are. Certainly more so in Ranked.

>

> Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

>

> Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is _zero_.

>

> Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once you might as well sit around doing nothing.

>

> Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions, maybe more. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

>

> I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

>

> But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

>

> 2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition

> 2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

> 2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.

> 12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity

> Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus

> 2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

>

> Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

>

> Or warriors who have:

> Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance

> 12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina

> 6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off

> Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

>

> Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period.

 

Burning Healing Signet is generally a last resort. Is condi clear a case of escalation? Have you seen the amount of conditions that can be spammed by either Mirage or Scourge? Even _with_ all of that condi cleanse, Warrior is hard-pressed to keep up given the sheer volume and ease of application.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"crewthief.8649" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > If I were balancing things, I'd do this:

> > >

> > > * Mirage cloak **not usable when CC'd**

> > > * Cut condi cleanse heavily across all classes. I'm talking like **remove every single cleanse trait**, leaving only minimal cleanse (eg. on heal skills + utility skills)

> > > * Tune condi classes in light of this reduced cleanse. To start: **reduce Mirage burst, reduce Scourge cover**. I'd probably leave other classes for now, but they might need to be reduced too.

> >

> > The winning solution.

> >

> > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > > People saying condi doesn't exist in the meta seem to forget that scourge exists and is still played in tournaments. A big reason a lot of condi builds don't get played isn't just because they lack the cheese of condi mirage, but because if you have a scourge you get plenty enough of condi pressure from that.

> >

> > Wow 2/9 classes sometimes run condi. And power reapers are at least as widely run as condition scourges are. Certainly more so in Ranked.

> >

> > Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

> >

> > Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is _zero_.

> >

> > Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once you might as well sit around doing nothing.

> >

> > Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions, maybe more. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

> >

> > I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

> >

> > But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

> >

> > 2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition

> > 2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

> > 2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.

> > 12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity

> > Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus

> > 2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

> >

> > Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

> >

> > Or warriors who have:

> > Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance

> > 12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina

> > 6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off

> > Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

> >

> > Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period.

>

> Burning Healing Signet is generally a last resort. Is condi clear a case of escalation? Have you seen the amount of conditions that can be spammed by either Mirage or Scourge? Even _with_ all of that condi cleanse, Warrior is hard-pressed to keep up given the sheer volume and ease of application.

 

Nice to see you completely ignored everything I said.

[ezd.6359]

14% of team damage with damage build. Sooooo OP!

[crewthief.8649]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"crewthief.8649" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > > If I were balancing things, I'd do this:

> > > >

> > > > * Mirage cloak **not usable when CC'd**

> > > > * Cut condi cleanse heavily across all classes. I'm talking like **remove every single cleanse trait**, leaving only minimal cleanse (eg. on heal skills + utility skills)

> > > > * Tune condi classes in light of this reduced cleanse. To start: **reduce Mirage burst, reduce Scourge cover**. I'd probably leave other classes for now, but they might need to be reduced too.

> > >

> > > The winning solution.

> > >

> > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > > > People saying condi doesn't exist in the meta seem to forget that scourge exists and is still played in tournaments. A big reason a lot of condi builds don't get played isn't just because they lack the cheese of condi mirage, but because if you have a scourge you get plenty enough of condi pressure from that.

> > >

> > > Wow 2/9 classes sometimes run condi. And power reapers are at least as widely run as condition scourges are. Certainly more so in Ranked.

> > >

> > > Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

> > >

> > > Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is _zero_.

> > >

> > > Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once you might as well sit around doing nothing.

> > >

> > > Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions, maybe more. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

> > >

> > > I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

> > >

> > > But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

> > >

> > > 2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition

> > > 2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

> > > 2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.

> > > 12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity

> > > Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus

> > > 2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

> > >

> > > Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

> > >

> > > Or warriors who have:

> > > Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance

> > > 12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina

> > > 6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off

> > > Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

> > >

> > > Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period.

> >

> > Burning Healing Signet is generally a last resort. Is condi clear a case of escalation? Have you seen the amount of conditions that can be spammed by either Mirage or Scourge? Even _with_ all of that condi cleanse, Warrior is hard-pressed to keep up given the sheer volume and ease of application.

>

> Nice to see you completely ignored everything I said.

 

I was specifically addressing your points regarding Warrior. If I'd had half an hour or more, I'd have read the rest of that wall. Were you not using Warrior as an example of excessive condi clear (because you _did_ single Warrior out)? My point was, is the excessive condi clear a response to Scourge and Mirage?