Cerioth.7062 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > > > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > > > > @"Iris Ng.9845" said: > > > > > > > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > > > > > > What I am going to say next is genuinely not meant to be rude, patronising or disrespectful. I'm just going to preface with that just because I swear in all honesty I do not wish to offend you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have literally no clue what you just wrote about. At all > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically a wall of text in a style of a church doctrine that seeks approval to an easy mode 20-25 man raid with the META painted as the greatest sinner. > > > > > > > > > > > > Been a while and the dark side has evolved to... something. > > > > > > > > > > If my thoughts were put on paper the way they were supposed to be understood, it's that I don't want to rely on a "META rotation." The META isn't the greatest sinner here, that's my point. It's the community. It's ArcDPS. It's needing to study what buttons to press in an order to achieve "Minimum 20k DPS." We play roles in this game, to enjoy, and to succeed. But as of now it's just a blame game. > > > > > > > > This is widely discussed in threads pretty much every day. There is precisely nothing Anet or the community can or will do that will instigate any change to this ever. I hate all those things too and I've prob been guilty in the past too. No amount of discussion from us, no amount of balancing from Anet will change anything. You either accept it and become part of it, give the affected content a wide berth entirely (my current stance) or find a like minded guild/group where such things are not an issue. > > > > > > ... Wait... So you're saying you _know_ making 20-25 man raids won't work? Keeping the difficulty of 10 man raids and 10 man CM, adding 20-25 man raids with different mechanics for the rest of the population, won't work? How is not being okay with the current situation, but not even having the incentive to try to have a discussion on what ideas will help the game okay to you? > > > > Personally I feel like LFGing for a 20-25 man raid would take far too long. > > So? It's a hard cap, that doesn't mean you need 20 people to finish the raid. > > Do you know how many people would try it because it's new and it's not dominated by a certain group? Been there done that in other games, was not a fan. Organizing bigger groups is much harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeman Oria.7504 Posted February 14, 2019 Author Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > > > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > > > > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > > > > > @"Iris Ng.9845" said: > > > > > > > > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > > > > > > > What I am going to say next is genuinely not meant to be rude, patronising or disrespectful. I'm just going to preface with that just because I swear in all honesty I do not wish to offend you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have literally no clue what you just wrote about. At all > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically a wall of text in a style of a church doctrine that seeks approval to an easy mode 20-25 man raid with the META painted as the greatest sinner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Been a while and the dark side has evolved to... something. > > > > > > > > > > > > If my thoughts were put on paper the way they were supposed to be understood, it's that I don't want to rely on a "META rotation." The META isn't the greatest sinner here, that's my point. It's the community. It's ArcDPS. It's needing to study what buttons to press in an order to achieve "Minimum 20k DPS." We play roles in this game, to enjoy, and to succeed. But as of now it's just a blame game. > > > > > > > > > > This is widely discussed in threads pretty much every day. There is precisely nothing Anet or the community can or will do that will instigate any change to this ever. I hate all those things too and I've prob been guilty in the past too. No amount of discussion from us, no amount of balancing from Anet will change anything. You either accept it and become part of it, give the affected content a wide berth entirely (my current stance) or find a like minded guild/group where such things are not an issue. > > > > > > > > ... Wait... So you're saying you _know_ making 20-25 man raids won't work? Keeping the difficulty of 10 man raids and 10 man CM, adding 20-25 man raids with different mechanics for the rest of the population, won't work? How is not being okay with the current situation, but not even having the incentive to try to have a discussion on what ideas will help the game okay to you? > > > > > > Personally I feel like LFGing for a 20-25 man raid would take far too long. > > > > So? It's a hard cap, that doesn't mean you need 20 people to finish the raid. > > > > Do you know how many people would try it because it's new and it's not dominated by a certain group? > > Been there done that in other games, was not a fan. Organizing bigger groups is much harder. Well it works in Final Fantasy XIV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > > @"Iris Ng.9845" said: > > > > > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > > > > What I am going to say next is genuinely not meant to be rude, patronising or disrespectful. I'm just going to preface with that just because I swear in all honesty I do not wish to offend you. > > > > > > > > > > I have literally no clue what you just wrote about. At all > > > > > > > > Basically a wall of text in a style of a church doctrine that seeks approval to an easy mode 20-25 man raid with the META painted as the greatest sinner. > > > > > > > > Been a while and the dark side has evolved to... something. > > > > > > If my thoughts were put on paper the way they were supposed to be understood, it's that I don't want to rely on a "META rotation." The META isn't the greatest sinner here, that's my point. It's the community. It's ArcDPS. It's needing to study what buttons to press in an order to achieve "Minimum 20k DPS." We play roles in this game, to enjoy, and to succeed. But as of now it's just a blame game. > > > > Actually it's not a blame game. There is often groups of people who play T4 fractals with "all welcome" or similar no demand heavy groups. > > > > You are free to do the same and play with like minded people. > > > > Others value different degrees of effort, often mirroring their own. They will provide XYZ performance and expect people they play with to do the same. Either accept other people's demands, or don't group with them. Problems only arise when different mentalities mix. Unfortunately with many people being reward driven, often the performance approach wins out. No one is stopping you though from playing how you want, simply not with not like minded people. > > You're right, because now the raiding community _wants_ people to start raiding and is willing to train people. "all welcome," usually means they have the Druid and Chrono covered, and I'm _not_ arguing the class roles. DPS meters have made their way into T4's, which is common knowledge. If I get blamed for not doing "optimal" DPS on the underwater fractal that is the community's problem. I'm not playing this game to be optimal. > If you get blamed for not doing optimal damage in the underwater fractal (nice pick up from the general forum by the way) you are dealing with a toxic person who is clueless. Has nothing to do with the damage meter. If you do 5k damage while running T4 and everyone else does 15-20k and do not feel like they should carry you, yes they might look for some one else. Before this was the case, people simply discriminated based on class, now it is based on actual performance. Also about the training, sorry but there has been raid training ever since there has been raids. If you want to assume otherwise that is you, but it is certainly not based in actual facts but rather biased ignorance. > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > I do not limit myself to like minded people, I want to liberate the mindset of conformity and exclusivity by allowing there to be other options available. I'm playing how I want by starting a discussion on ideas that _ArenaNet is actively listening to_. Then be ready to provide the performance or play style others are asking for. I just finished a 2h 45 minute training raid run today with 6 experienced raiders and 4 new people. Guess how many people had to bring snowcrows level of dps and were called out on it? None. Why? Because the expectations were very different and people were bringing very different expectations. Now guess how long you get to stay in a full clear squad for wings 1-6 with that performance? Not 1 second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeman Oria.7504 Posted February 14, 2019 Author Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > > > @"Iris Ng.9845" said: > > > > > > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > > > > > What I am going to say next is genuinely not meant to be rude, patronising or disrespectful. I'm just going to preface with that just because I swear in all honesty I do not wish to offend you. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have literally no clue what you just wrote about. At all > > > > > > > > > > Basically a wall of text in a style of a church doctrine that seeks approval to an easy mode 20-25 man raid with the META painted as the greatest sinner. > > > > > > > > > > Been a while and the dark side has evolved to... something. > > > > > > > > If my thoughts were put on paper the way they were supposed to be understood, it's that I don't want to rely on a "META rotation." The META isn't the greatest sinner here, that's my point. It's the community. It's ArcDPS. It's needing to study what buttons to press in an order to achieve "Minimum 20k DPS." We play roles in this game, to enjoy, and to succeed. But as of now it's just a blame game. > > > > > > Actually it's not a blame game. There is often groups of people who play T4 fractals with "all welcome" or similar no demand heavy groups. > > > > > > You are free to do the same and play with like minded people. > > > > > > Others value different degrees of effort, often mirroring their own. They will provide XYZ performance and expect people they play with to do the same. Either accept other people's demands, or don't group with them. Problems only arise when different mentalities mix. Unfortunately with many people being reward driven, often the performance approach wins out. No one is stopping you though from playing how you want, simply not with not like minded people. > > > > You're right, because now the raiding community _wants_ people to start raiding and is willing to train people. "all welcome," usually means they have the Druid and Chrono covered, and I'm _not_ arguing the class roles. DPS meters have made their way into T4's, which is common knowledge. If I get blamed for not doing "optimal" DPS on the underwater fractal that is the community's problem. I'm not playing this game to be optimal. > > > > If you get blamed for not doing optimal damage in the underwater fractal (nice pick up from the general forum by the way) you are dealing with a toxic person who is clueless. Has nothing to do with the damage meter. If you do 5k damage while running T4 and everyone else does 15-20k and do not feel like they should carry you, yes they might look for some one else. Before this was the case, people simply discriminated based on class, now it is based on actual performance. > > Also about the training, sorry but there has been raid training ever since there has been raids. If you want to assume otherwise that is you, but it is certainly not based in actual facts but rather biased ignorance. > > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > I do not limit myself to like minded people, I want to liberate the mindset of conformity and exclusivity by allowing there to be other options available. I'm playing how I want by starting a discussion on ideas that _ArenaNet is actively listening to_. > > Then be ready to provide the performance or play style others are asking for. I just finished a 2h 45 minute training raid run today with 6 experienced raiders and 4 new people. Guess how many people had to bring snowcrows level of dps and were called out on it? None. Why? Because the expectations were very different and people were bringing very different expectations. Now guess how long you get to stay in a full clear squad for wings 1-6 with that performance? Not 1 second. I can do 11k DPS just autoattacking on the golem. I know mechanics after I learn them and I clear VG with ease because it's the raid boss I've done the most. This is valuable discussion. I'm not arguing because I am not allowed in raids. I'm not arguing because I under perform. Infact, in my raid training guild it is quite laid back. Are you against adding free content? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randulf.7614 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > > @"Iris Ng.9845" said: > > > > > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > > > > What I am going to say next is genuinely not meant to be rude, patronising or disrespectful. I'm just going to preface with that just because I swear in all honesty I do not wish to offend you. > > > > > > > > > > I have literally no clue what you just wrote about. At all > > > > > > > > Basically a wall of text in a style of a church doctrine that seeks approval to an easy mode 20-25 man raid with the META painted as the greatest sinner. > > > > > > > > Been a while and the dark side has evolved to... something. > > > > > > If my thoughts were put on paper the way they were supposed to be understood, it's that I don't want to rely on a "META rotation." The META isn't the greatest sinner here, that's my point. It's the community. It's ArcDPS. It's needing to study what buttons to press in an order to achieve "Minimum 20k DPS." We play roles in this game, to enjoy, and to succeed. But as of now it's just a blame game. > > > > This is widely discussed in threads pretty much every day. There is precisely nothing Anet or the community can or will do that will instigate any change to this ever. I hate all those things too and I've prob been guilty in the past too. No amount of discussion from us, no amount of balancing from Anet will change anything. You either accept it and become part of it, give the affected content a wide berth entirely (my current stance) or find a like minded guild/group where such things are not an issue. > > ... Wait... So you're saying you _know_ making 20-25 man raids won't work? Keeping the difficulty of 10 man raids and 10 man CM, adding 20-25 man raids with different mechanics for the rest of the population, won't work? How is not being okay with the current situation, but not even having the incentive to try to have a discussion on what ideas will help the game okay to you? My reply was in no way directed at 20-25 man raids nor did I even mention it or quote about it. Not sure how it is possible to make an alternative raid system/easy mode without a meta philosophy kicking in though. As a current non raider, I am not in favour of easy mode or alternative versions of raids at this time. There are other things I'd prefer to see the devs work on given their time and resources are stretched as it is and it wouldn't really solve anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > > > > @"Iris Ng.9845" said: > > > > > > > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > > > > > > What I am going to say next is genuinely not meant to be rude, patronising or disrespectful. I'm just going to preface with that just because I swear in all honesty I do not wish to offend you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have literally no clue what you just wrote about. At all > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically a wall of text in a style of a church doctrine that seeks approval to an easy mode 20-25 man raid with the META painted as the greatest sinner. > > > > > > > > > > > > Been a while and the dark side has evolved to... something. > > > > > > > > > > If my thoughts were put on paper the way they were supposed to be understood, it's that I don't want to rely on a "META rotation." The META isn't the greatest sinner here, that's my point. It's the community. It's ArcDPS. It's needing to study what buttons to press in an order to achieve "Minimum 20k DPS." We play roles in this game, to enjoy, and to succeed. But as of now it's just a blame game. > > > > > > > > Actually it's not a blame game. There is often groups of people who play T4 fractals with "all welcome" or similar no demand heavy groups. > > > > > > > > You are free to do the same and play with like minded people. > > > > > > > > Others value different degrees of effort, often mirroring their own. They will provide XYZ performance and expect people they play with to do the same. Either accept other people's demands, or don't group with them. Problems only arise when different mentalities mix. Unfortunately with many people being reward driven, often the performance approach wins out. No one is stopping you though from playing how you want, simply not with not like minded people. > > > > > > You're right, because now the raiding community _wants_ people to start raiding and is willing to train people. "all welcome," usually means they have the Druid and Chrono covered, and I'm _not_ arguing the class roles. DPS meters have made their way into T4's, which is common knowledge. If I get blamed for not doing "optimal" DPS on the underwater fractal that is the community's problem. I'm not playing this game to be optimal. > > > > > > > If you get blamed for not doing optimal damage in the underwater fractal (nice pick up from the general forum by the way) you are dealing with a toxic person who is clueless. Has nothing to do with the damage meter. If you do 5k damage while running T4 and everyone else does 15-20k and do not feel like they should carry you, yes they might look for some one else. Before this was the case, people simply discriminated based on class, now it is based on actual performance. > > > > Also about the training, sorry but there has been raid training ever since there has been raids. If you want to assume otherwise that is you, but it is certainly not based in actual facts but rather biased ignorance. > > > > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > I do not limit myself to like minded people, I want to liberate the mindset of conformity and exclusivity by allowing there to be other options available. I'm playing how I want by starting a discussion on ideas that _ArenaNet is actively listening to_. > > > > Then be ready to provide the performance or play style others are asking for. I just finished a 2h 45 minute training raid run today with 6 experienced raiders and 4 new people. Guess how many people had to bring snowcrows level of dps and were called out on it? None. Why? Because the expectations were very different and people were bringing very different expectations. Now guess how long you get to stay in a full clear squad for wings 1-6 with that performance? Not 1 second. > > I can do 11k DPS just autoattacking on the golem. I know mechanics after I learn them and I clear VG with ease because it's the raid boss I've done the most. This is valuable discussion. I'm not arguing because I am not allowed in raids. I'm not arguing because I under perform. > > Infact, in my raid training guild it is quite laid back. Are you against adding free content? Added content is not free. It costs developer resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeman Oria.7504 Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > > > @"Neeman Oria.7504" said: > > > > > @"Iris Ng.9845" said: > > > > > > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > > > > > What I am going to say next is genuinely not meant to be rude, patronising or disrespectful. I'm just going to preface with that just because I swear in all honesty I do not wish to offend you. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have literally no clue what you just wrote about. At all > > > > > > > > > > Basically a wall of text in a style of a church doctrine that seeks approval to an easy mode 20-25 man raid with the META painted as the greatest sinner. > > > > > > > > > > Been a while and the dark side has evolved to... something. > > > > > > > > If my thoughts were put on paper the way they were supposed to be understood, it's that I don't want to rely on a "META rotation." The META isn't the greatest sinner here, that's my point. It's the community. It's ArcDPS. It's needing to study what buttons to press in an order to achieve "Minimum 20k DPS." We play roles in this game, to enjoy, and to succeed. But as of now it's just a blame game. > > > > > > This is widely discussed in threads pretty much every day. There is precisely nothing Anet or the community can or will do that will instigate any change to this ever. I hate all those things too and I've prob been guilty in the past too. No amount of discussion from us, no amount of balancing from Anet will change anything. You either accept it and become part of it, give the affected content a wide berth entirely (my current stance) or find a like minded guild/group where such things are not an issue. > > > > ... Wait... So you're saying you _know_ making 20-25 man raids won't work? Keeping the difficulty of 10 man raids and 10 man CM, adding 20-25 man raids with different mechanics for the rest of the population, won't work? How is not being okay with the current situation, but not even having the incentive to try to have a discussion on what ideas will help the game okay to you? > > My reply was in no way directed at 20-25 man raids nor did I even mention it or quote about it. > > Not sure how it is possible to make an alternative raid system/easy mode without a meta philosophy kicking in though. > > As a current non raider, I am not in favour of easy mode or alternative versions of raids at this time. There are other things I'd prefer to see the devs work on given their time and resources are stretched as it is and it wouldn't really solve anything. In my opinion when you're in my thread posting on my topic saying no amount of discussion will change anything you're also saying my idea won't work. I'm not going to beat the dead horse, people obviously aren't seeing the bigger picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riku.4821 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 There was a similar post, which I posted on but after 88 pages it seems to have died, haha. I won't go as far as copy/pasting that response here, as the topics are a little different. There are two of three topics I see of this post. 1. Who is at fault, developers or players? 2. Raids as a whole. 3. Content and meta. I will say this outright. Developers are not to blame, entirely. The players are not to blame, entirely. The MMO genre culture is imo mostly to blame. When developers make content, they will spend several weeks or a couple of months and a handful of teams to make it. This content will then be consumed by the player in much less time than it took to make. What this means should be simple for anyone to understand. While the developers are making the next content patch, players are already done with what was essentially just released, and asking for more. There is a huge process to make games and if they could quickly release content--they would. This is most likely why they stopped their bi-weekly content back in season one (I can't remember if it was bi-weekly. Arena Net has gone through many different content release schedules since launch I've lost track). It is a fact that developers cannot make content faster than the player-base consumes it. This problem is only increased with how the culture of MMO communities is currently. You touched upon this in your own post, Topic Creator(TC), players skip content. If players want content so badly. Why are they skipping content? **Because its not rewarding.** Escort, to most people, is not rewarding, the part from VG to Gorse, is not rewarding. Why is it not rewarding? The loot is next to nothing, is what many will say. And you're not wrong, those type of encounters in raids do not give loot worth even mentioning. The enemies themselves drop no loot (to prevent loot farming I am sure), and the encounters give what, bags of gear containing probably green and a few rare pieces of gear? That is not rewarding loot. And the encounters themselves are not engaging encounters. So within the mindset "loot = reward|Do thing-Get reward" already this is a failed method of rewarding the player. Many things come into this situation though. If the loot in X content is too consistent, others will feel forced to do said content. If every encounter gave exotic gear, everyone would be doing raids for that purpose. If WvW was the fastest way to get a legendary armor set, for example, everyone would be doing WvW for a legendary armor set even if they hate PvP content. But there is an issue with all of this. Reward doesn't need to be material gain. It is simply just ideal that what you do in the game, will yield results in the short term. If the content and encounters for Gw2 raids were more engaging, I think players would skip it less. If players felt rewarded on a individual level the raids would be in a better spot (not a good spot, a better spot). To do that, I think the way raids are developed needs to change. Split the team up, and stop the "Arena" mechanic of boss fights. Let it take place on multiple stages in the map. Just my two cents. I had many more ideas, but as I wrote this, like an hour ago, I forgot the things I was going to add. Sorry for the ramble, hopefully what I said will at least spark discussion oppose to "Not another one of these threads" type situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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