Safandula.8723 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Safandula.8723" said: > > thief wasnt nerfed. only this de abomination which deserved it. > > It’s been continually nerfed since 2015,de brought more nerfs to core as well all patches before most recent.u been playing long?thief is far from its initial iteration all while other classes save fore Eli we’re powercrept More than a year. Yea there were a lot of nerfs which I don't agree with, but not this patch. As some 1 said, thief is pretty balanced atm, just reduce few other specs and than we will only need minor changes,for healthy roaming. But not for zerging which is cancer atm but it's another topic. And marked mechanic was one of the worst changes in the wvw, not only thief wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Yeah u can consider any weak class balanced if based on the others being toned down to it level but that is the most unlikely of scenarios so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > but is it a problem to begin with? i mean sure if we had a 1 vs 1 deathsmatch maybe. > > > > > > > > the weavers ability to sustain visibly is alot stronger than the thieves ability to sustain in stealth or by running away in spvp just because of how conquest and the nodes work. you cannot just look here at their skills while ignoring the context of the encounter. > > > > stealth only helps you to apply the opening burst, where other professions have powefull CC in the place and then it might help again after longer periods of restealth. but with current levels of facetanking and recovery a burst is only relevant if it does finish the opponent or if you can apply sustained pressure too, where stealth doesnt help. i think the main issue with stealth is that people overrate its balance value, because neither spvp nor WvW actually have a focus on killing the other players. its more tactical about holding positions. but people feel it very unbalanced if you can avoid dying, regardless of your contribution. > > > > > > > > in WvW the role of a thief is mostly being a scout (or some refer to it as roaming): flipping minor objectives/dolyaks, killing players off position and being a distraction to force a numbers advantage elsewhere. its not about fair fights to begin with. but if you nerf the 'dark triad' as you call it, you will make the thief unable to operate efficiently in that role as they either wont be a threat to cause a distraction/sabotage or be killed too easily so they wont even try. and he surely is not designed for large scale encounters. > > > > to play to this role in WvW i felt like the game pushed us more and more into heavy stealth abuse over the years just to nerf it then again, so i feel like thief especially in WvW has lost its role, you can do it as good as a thief with most other professions now - if not even better. > > > > > > That's what is meant by "precarious position." The weakness of the current thief is the culmination of all the balance decisions to curb their strength. It wasn't always like this, though. I still remember the evasion spamming sword builds that could reliably 1v1 anyone in the game, and I also remember the pistol whip build that would win through stun locking and blind spam. But, these builds were nerfed, partly because they could also use stealth while doing all of this. The thief's current roles are decided by these nerfs, and they would change if thieves received buffs. > > > > > > A good way to think of stealth is as a static stealth reduction on the enemy. While a normal fight without stealth is just your health + sustain vs. your opponents, the thief gives you an immediate handi-cap by bursting away some of the health. If a thief can open a fight with an 8k hit, this means that the fight is now essentially your health -8k + sustain vs. your opponents. Throughout the fight, stealth allows the thief to constantly disengage and re-ingage, hammering you over and over again with that 8k hit. There's more counterplay once you're in the midst of a fight, but after awhile that damage can really add up. It's like, every 4 seconds, another 8k of your health will be taken away. It is for this reason that Silent Scope was nerfed. > > > > > for that to be the case, the stealth would have to be given for free. you also use cooldowns or resources to get that ambush in, just like the opponent will lose some health if he really doesnt see it comming. using stealth after the initial ambush is rather inefficient to apply another 8k for a few seconds, so you need a couple seconds in stealth to actually make your attack unpredictable (and often ontop shadowstep/evades to avoid the pressure you still get in stealth). those seconds however will regenerate your opponent and cost you tons of points if you try to utilize this tactic in spvp. and yes they do add up, just like if my opponent uses frequently a CC to apply a burst. that will add up aswell or if they frequently abuse superior range to safely hit me, will also add up over the fight. yet i still shoot up to 10k autoattacks on my ranger longbow with no cooldown. > > > The ability to win 1v1 engagements generally valuable. If it wasn't, then mirages wouldn't keep being nerfed. > > the problem with mirage was not the 1 vs 1 , but the fact that a 2nd player could hardly pressure the mirage to safe their ally. so it is about 1vsX and not 1vs1. and thats why i still use my mirage for some solo PvE as you can simply ignore what is going on or how many opponents you fight while melting through your target. > > > > Getting stealth is reallyy easy for the thief. Thieves use initiative, so their weapon skills can all be spammed. it doesnt cost much, its just a button press away like any other ability to any profession. thieves skills being spammable to some degree doesnt mean their skills are free. > You can complain all you want about how strong you think the other professions are, but that is irrelevant to the issue at hand. So long as thieves are invisible, highly mobile, and have high burst, they will have to be the weakest class in the game overall.. Crawling over every other profession's individual strengths and weaknesses is a meaningless exercise, because it does not negate this dilemma in any way.. It doesn't matter_how_ they're stronger, only that they are. i dont complain about how strong other professions are, i just am looking for a reason to keep playing my thief outside of havin all the legendaries for it. and no they do not have to be overall stronger. because in overall you would already put in the thieves mobility, stealth etc. > Seriously, think about this for a moment. For the sake of argument, lets say that the thief now magically has access to all the sustain, evades, barriers, blocks, boons, and DPS skills that the weaver gets, but also doesn't lose any mobility, stealth, or burst damage. What becomes of the weaver then? How will they get played, when there's another class that will always hunt them down and kill them with no warning, no realistic chance of winning, and no hope of escape? It seems ridiculous, but for many years that is exactly the problem we had. For the longest time, the underdog class wasn't the thief. It was the mesmer. Why? Because in PVP the thief could do basically everything the mesmer could, except harder, faster, and safer. I still remember the video where Helseth, a famous PVP mesmer main, decided to switch to thief because it was just a better mesmer, and mesmers just got ganked by thieves. What I am saying here isn't speculation: it's history. i never asked for any of that. i dont want thief to be like weaver. if i want to play weaver i play weaver. i want thief to keep its role. i want a reason to play thief over other options at hand for something. when i play spvp to build my guildhalls, thats were i play thief still. but in WvW i currently dont know why i should do so because i simply cannot pick my fights there better than on my other professions now, the very thing you give as reason as to why thief should be weak. > To have a fair game, you _need to have a chance to fight back._ It would be stupid to design a game otherwise. Despite your insistence Crowd Control is not unfair. You can still see it coming. You can still counter-interrupt them. You can still dodge them. You can still use positioning to avoid it. You can still block it. Every class has a plethora of stun breaks at their beck and call. You can't do that with a thief. Positioning doesn't matter because thieves teleport around. You can't interrupt, dodge, or block them because you can't see them coming and thus won't know when to do it. Reveal skills are rare and they're trash. i never said that CC was unfair nor that i seek a fair game, please stop making assumptions. i merely said that it was a common used way to apply a burst. you can avoid being bursted from stealth with positioning and movement. sure the thief might still apply a burst with the help of an instant cast steal or utility, but that is mainly the power of instant abilities, they are pretty strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > > > > but is it a problem to begin with? i mean sure if we had a 1 vs 1 deathsmatch maybe. > > > > > > > > the weavers ability to sustain visibly is alot stronger than the thieves ability to sustain in stealth or by running away in spvp just because of how conquest and the nodes work. you cannot just look here at their skills while ignoring the context of the encounter. > > > > stealth only helps you to apply the opening burst, where other professions have powefull CC in the place and then it might help again after longer periods of restealth. but with current levels of facetanking and recovery a burst is only relevant if it does finish the opponent or if you can apply sustained pressure too, where stealth doesnt help. i think the main issue with stealth is that people overrate its balance value, because neither spvp nor WvW actually have a focus on killing the other players. its more tactical about holding positions. but people feel it very unbalanced if you can avoid dying, regardless of your contribution. > > > > > > > > in WvW the role of a thief is mostly being a scout (or some refer to it as roaming): flipping minor objectives/dolyaks, killing players off position and being a distraction to force a numbers advantage elsewhere. its not about fair fights to begin with. but if you nerf the 'dark triad' as you call it, you will make the thief unable to operate efficiently in that role as they either wont be a threat to cause a distraction/sabotage or be killed too easily so they wont even try. and he surely is not designed for large scale encounters. > > > > to play to this role in WvW i felt like the game pushed us more and more into heavy stealth abuse over the years just to nerf it then again, so i feel like thief especially in WvW has lost its role, you can do it as good as a thief with most other professions now - if not even better. > > > > > > That's what is meant by "precarious position." The weakness of the current thief is the culmination of all the balance decisions to curb their strength. It wasn't always like this, though. I still remember the evasion spamming sword builds that could reliably 1v1 anyone in the game, and I also remember the pistol whip build that would win through stun locking and blind spam. But, these builds were nerfed, partly because they could also use stealth while doing all of this. The thief's current roles are decided by these nerfs, and they would change if thieves received buffs. > > > > > > A good way to think of stealth is as a static stealth reduction on the enemy. While a normal fight without stealth is just your health + sustain vs. your opponents, the thief gives you an immediate handi-cap by bursting away some of the health. If a thief can open a fight with an 8k hit, this means that the fight is now essentially your health -8k + sustain vs. your opponents. Throughout the fight, stealth allows the thief to constantly disengage and re-ingage, hammering you over and over again with that 8k hit. There's more counterplay once you're in the midst of a fight, but after awhile that damage can really add up. It's like, every 4 seconds, another 8k of your health will be taken away. It is for this reason that Silent Scope was nerfed. > > > > > for that to be the case, the stealth would have to be given for free. you also use cooldowns or resources to get that ambush in, just like the opponent will lose some health if he really doesnt see it comming. using stealth after the initial ambush is rather inefficient to apply another 8k for a few seconds, so you need a couple seconds in stealth to actually make your attack unpredictable (and often ontop shadowstep/evades to avoid the pressure you still get in stealth). those seconds however will regenerate your opponent and cost you tons of points if you try to utilize this tactic in spvp. and yes they do add up, just like if my opponent uses frequently a CC to apply a burst. that will add up aswell or if they frequently abuse superior range to safely hit me, will also add up over the fight. yet i still shoot up to 10k autoattacks on my ranger longbow with no cooldown. > > > The ability to win 1v1 engagements generally valuable. If it wasn't, then mirages wouldn't keep being nerfed. > > the problem with mirage was not the 1 vs 1 , but the fact that a 2nd player could hardly pressure the mirage to safe their ally. so it is about 1vsX and not 1vs1. and thats why i still use my mirage for some solo PvE as you can simply ignore what is going on or how many opponents you fight while melting through your target. > > > > Getting stealth is reallyy easy for the thief. Thieves use initiative, so their weapon skills can all be spammed. > > You can complain all you want about how strong you think the other professions are, but that is irrelevant to the issue at hand. So long as thieves are invisible, highly mobile, and have high burst, they will have to be the weakest class in the game overall.. Crawling over every other profession's individual strengths and weaknesses is a meaningless exercise, because it does not negate this dilemma in any way.. It doesn't matter_how_ they're stronger, only that they are. > > Seriously, think about this for a moment. For the sake of argument, lets say that the thief now magically has access to all the sustain, evades, barriers, blocks, boons, and DPS skills that the weaver gets, but also doesn't lose any mobility, stealth, or burst damage. What becomes of the weaver then? How will they get played, when there's another class that will always hunt them down and kill them with no warning, no realistic chance of winning, and no hope of escape? It seems ridiculous, but for many years that is exactly the problem we had. For the longest time, the underdog class wasn't the thief. It was the mesmer. Why? Because in PVP the thief could do basically everything the mesmer could, except harder, faster, and safer. I still remember the video where Helseth, a famous PVP mesmer main, decided to switch to thief because it was just a better mesmer, and mesmers just got ganked by thieves. What I am saying here isn't speculation: it's history. > > To have a fair game, you _need to have a chance to fight back._ It would be stupid to design a game otherwise. Despite your insistence Crowd Control is not unfair. You can still see it coming. You can still counter-interrupt them. You can still dodge them. You can still use positioning to avoid it. You can still block it. Every class has a plethora of stun breaks at their beck and call. You can't do that with a thief. Positioning doesn't matter because thieves teleport around. You can't interrupt, dodge, or block them because you can't see them coming and thus won't know when to do it. Reveal skills are rare and they're trash. Somebody doesn't like thieves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Lol thought that was obvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > Seriously, think about this for a moment. For the sake of argument, lets say that the thief now magically has access to all the sustain, evades, barriers, blocks, boons, and DPS skills that the weaver gets, but also doesn't lose any mobility, stealth, or burst damage. What becomes of the weaver then? How will they get played, when there's another class that will always hunt them down and kill them with no warning, no realistic chance of winning, and no hope of escape? It seems ridiculous, but for many years that is exactly the problem we had. For the longest time, the underdog class wasn't the thief. It was the mesmer. Why? Because in PVP the thief could do basically everything the mesmer could, except harder, faster, and safer. I still remember the video where Helseth, a famous PVP mesmer main, decided to switch to thief because it was just a better mesmer, and mesmers just got ganked by thieves. What I am saying here isn't speculation: it's history. > > To have a fair game, you _need to have a chance to fight back._ It would be stupid to design a game otherwise. Despite your insistence Crowd Control is not unfair. You can still see it coming. You can still counter-interrupt them. You can still dodge them. You can still use positioning to avoid it. You can still block it. Every class has a plethora of stun breaks at their beck and call. You can't do that with a thief. Positioning doesn't matter because thieves teleport around. You can't interrupt, dodge, or block them because you can't see them coming and thus won't know when to do it. Reveal skills are rare and they're trash. I don't want thief to have access to the same crap other classes have. If thief had all the sustain, boons, blocks, dps, what ever the other classes get, it would not be the same class. It'd be another standard with no unique identity. The whole DPS train thing was just a result of the Raids, which I still firmly believe do not feel like Guild Wars. It was just something designed to be incredibly accessible, and they shoe horned the requirement of a paradigm which they sought to destroy. And no thief says that another player should not be able to fight back. The major complaint is that there is absolutely no reward to playing thief anymore. You genuinely don't feel like you are getting anything out of it. When everyone else can do everything you do better. It feels like complete crap that you've outplayed your opponent multiple times in a single fight, but it often results in nothing. You die inside every time you play spvp, when you're universally hated with nothing to back the hate up. And worse of it all is being forced to go far because you're not valuable anywhere else. And other classes -can still do this-. And lord knows it's even more infuriating when the developers keep creating a loop where they have to see just how far they can bring this class into the dirt before the player count just drops to zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > Seriously, think about this for a moment. For the sake of argument, lets say that the thief now magically has access to all the sustain, evades, barriers, blocks, boons, and DPS skills that the weaver gets, but also doesn't lose any mobility, stealth, or burst damage. What becomes of the weaver then? How will they get played, when there's another class that will always hunt them down and kill them with no warning, no realistic chance of winning, and no hope of escape? It seems ridiculous, but for many years that is exactly the problem we had. For the longest time, the underdog class wasn't the thief. It was the mesmer. Why? Because in PVP the thief could do basically everything the mesmer could, except harder, faster, and safer. I still remember the video where Helseth, a famous PVP mesmer main, decided to switch to thief because it was just a better mesmer, and mesmers just got ganked by thieves. What I am saying here isn't speculation: it's history. > > > > To have a fair game, you _need to have a chance to fight back._ It would be stupid to design a game otherwise. Despite your insistence Crowd Control is not unfair. You can still see it coming. You can still counter-interrupt them. You can still dodge them. You can still use positioning to avoid it. You can still block it. Every class has a plethora of stun breaks at their beck and call. You can't do that with a thief. Positioning doesn't matter because thieves teleport around. You can't interrupt, dodge, or block them because you can't see them coming and thus won't know when to do it. Reveal skills are rare and they're trash. > > I don't want thief to have access to the same kitten other classes have. If thief had all the sustain, boons, blocks, dps, what ever the other classes get, it would not be the same class. It'd be another standard with no unique identity. The whole DPS train thing was just a result of the Raids, which I still firmly believe do not feel like Guild Wars. It was just something designed to be incredibly accessible, and they shoe horned the requirement of a paradigm which they sought to destroy. > > And no thief says that another player should not be able to fight back. The major complaint is that there is absolutely no reward to playing thief anymore. You genuinely don't feel like you are getting anything out of it. When everyone else can do everything you do better. > > It feels like complete kitten that you've outplayed your opponent multiple times in a single fight, but it often results in nothing. > You die inside every time you play spvp, when you're universally hated with nothing to back the hate up. And worse of it all is being forced to go far because you're not valuable anywhere else. And other classes -can still do this-. > > And lord knows it's even more infuriating when the developers keep creating a loop where they have to see just how far they can bring this class into the dirt before the player count just drops to zero. Good stuff right here ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Arenanet meets to stop letting cry babies dictate how the treat thief and man up as a company because it sure as hell isnt what their initial description of the class is anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > Getting stealth is reallyy easy for the thief. Thieves use initiative, so their weapon skills can all be spammed. > it doesnt cost much, its just a button press away like any other ability to any profession. thieves skills being spammable to some degree doesnt mean their skills are free. You're trying to set up a false dichotomy. Look, I play thief. I've played against thieves. I know how easy it is to go into stealth. > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > You can complain all you want about how strong you think the other professions are, but that is irrelevant to the issue at hand. So long as thieves are invisible, highly mobile, and have high burst, they will have to be the weakest class in the game overall.. Crawling over every other profession's individual strengths and weaknesses is a meaningless exercise, because it does not negate this dilemma in any way.. It doesn't matter_how_ they're stronger, only that they are. > i dont complain about how strong other professions are, i just am looking for a reason to keep playing my thief outside of havin all the legendaries for it. and no they do not have to be overall stronger. because in overall you would already put in the thieves mobility, stealth etc. Every time this issue comes up, it is always sour grapes. "Look at Guardians! Look at Weavers! Look at Rangers!" You brought up Rangers yourself. You understand how that's all irrelevant, right? > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > Seriously, think about this for a moment. For the sake of argument, lets say that the thief now magically has access to all the sustain, evades, barriers, blocks, boons, and DPS skills that the weaver gets, but also doesn't lose any mobility, stealth, or burst damage. What becomes of the weaver then? How will they get played, when there's another class that will always hunt them down and kill them with no warning, no realistic chance of winning, and no hope of escape? It seems ridiculous, but for many years that is exactly the problem we had. For the longest time, the underdog class wasn't the thief. It was the mesmer. Why? Because in PVP the thief could do basically everything the mesmer could, except harder, faster, and safer. I still remember the video where Helseth, a famous PVP mesmer main, decided to switch to thief because it was just a better mesmer, and mesmers just got ganked by thieves. What I am saying here isn't speculation: it's history. > i never asked for any of that. i dont want thief to be like weaver. if i want to play weaver i play weaver. i want thief to keep its role. i want a reason to play thief over other options at hand for something. when i play spvp to build my guildhalls, thats were i play thief still. but in WvW i currently dont know why i should do so because i simply cannot pick my fights there better than on my other professions now, the very thing you give as reason as to why thief should be weak. Read: "For the sake of argument." > > To have a fair game, you _need to have a chance to fight back._ It would be stupid to design a game otherwise. Despite your insistence Crowd Control is not unfair. You can still see it coming. You can still counter-interrupt them. You can still dodge them. You can still use positioning to avoid it. You can still block it. Every class has a plethora of stun breaks at their beck and call. You can't do that with a thief. Positioning doesn't matter because thieves teleport around. You can't interrupt, dodge, or block them because you can't see them coming and thus won't know when to do it. Reveal skills are rare and they're trash. > i never said that CC was unfair nor that i seek a fair game, please stop making assumptions. i merely said that it was a common used way to apply a burst. you can avoid being bursted from stealth with positioning and movement. sure the thief might still apply a burst with the help of an instant cast steal or utility, but that is mainly the power of instant abilities, they are pretty strong. You keep throwing "CC" at every mention of stealth and presenting them as equals. You did it twice now. Also, you cannot avoid being bursted from Stealth by a thief with positioning. You can't see them coming, so then you can't see where your position is against them. Look, it is possible for thieves to be underpowered, even if they have to be the weakest overall class in the game. Their feebleness is necessary to counter-balance the advantage of stealth, mobility, and burst. Thieves aren't supposed to be helpless even with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > Seriously, think about this for a moment. For the sake of argument, lets say that the thief now magically has access to all the sustain, evades, barriers, blocks, boons, and DPS skills that the weaver gets, but also doesn't lose any mobility, stealth, or burst damage. What becomes of the weaver then? How will they get played, when there's another class that will always hunt them down and kill them with no warning, no realistic chance of winning, and no hope of escape? It seems ridiculous, but for many years that is exactly the problem we had. For the longest time, the underdog class wasn't the thief. It was the mesmer. Why? Because in PVP the thief could do basically everything the mesmer could, except harder, faster, and safer. I still remember the video where Helseth, a famous PVP mesmer main, decided to switch to thief because it was just a better mesmer, and mesmers just got ganked by thieves. What I am saying here isn't speculation: it's history. > > > > To have a fair game, you _need to have a chance to fight back._ It would be stupid to design a game otherwise. Despite your insistence Crowd Control is not unfair. You can still see it coming. You can still counter-interrupt them. You can still dodge them. You can still use positioning to avoid it. You can still block it. Every class has a plethora of stun breaks at their beck and call. You can't do that with a thief. Positioning doesn't matter because thieves teleport around. You can't interrupt, dodge, or block them because you can't see them coming and thus won't know when to do it. Reveal skills are rare and they're trash. > > I don't want thief to have access to the same kitten other classes have. If thief had all the sustain, boons, blocks, dps, what ever the other classes get, it would not be the same class. It'd be another standard with no unique identity. The whole DPS train thing was just a result of the Raids, which I still firmly believe do not feel like Guild Wars. It was just something designed to be incredibly accessible, and they shoe horned the requirement of a paradigm which they sought to destroy. > > And no thief says that another player should not be able to fight back. The major complaint is that there is absolutely no reward to playing thief anymore. You genuinely don't feel like you are getting anything out of it. When everyone else can do everything you do better. > > It feels like complete kitten that you've outplayed your opponent multiple times in a single fight, but it often results in nothing. > You die inside every time you play spvp, when you're universally hated with nothing to back the hate up. And worse of it all is being forced to go far because you're not valuable anywhere else. And other classes -can still do this-. > > And lord knows it's even more infuriating when the developers keep creating a loop where they have to see just how far they can bring this class into the dirt before the player count just drops to zero. You know that half of this isn't true. There are plenty of thief gankers who just want to destroy people. If there weren't, then WvW wouldn't have been full of roaming glass Deadeyes. Thieves have gone up and down in power, just like every other class in the game, and every time thieves go down they covet what other professions have. You yourself say "everyone else can do everything I do better." This doesn't change the issue at hand: an extremely mobile, invisible, bursty class is inherently unfun and unfair mechanically, and so it will always receive the brunt of the balancing decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > Seriously, think about this for a moment. For the sake of argument, lets say that the thief now magically has access to all the sustain, evades, barriers, blocks, boons, and DPS skills that the weaver gets, but also doesn't lose any mobility, stealth, or burst damage. What becomes of the weaver then? How will they get played, when there's another class that will always hunt them down and kill them with no warning, no realistic chance of winning, and no hope of escape? It seems ridiculous, but for many years that is exactly the problem we had. For the longest time, the underdog class wasn't the thief. It was the mesmer. Why? Because in PVP the thief could do basically everything the mesmer could, except harder, faster, and safer. I still remember the video where Helseth, a famous PVP mesmer main, decided to switch to thief because it was just a better mesmer, and mesmers just got ganked by thieves. What I am saying here isn't speculation: it's history. > > > > > > To have a fair game, you _need to have a chance to fight back._ It would be stupid to design a game otherwise. Despite your insistence Crowd Control is not unfair. You can still see it coming. You can still counter-interrupt them. You can still dodge them. You can still use positioning to avoid it. You can still block it. Every class has a plethora of stun breaks at their beck and call. You can't do that with a thief. Positioning doesn't matter because thieves teleport around. You can't interrupt, dodge, or block them because you can't see them coming and thus won't know when to do it. Reveal skills are rare and they're trash. > > > > I don't want thief to have access to the same kitten other classes have. If thief had all the sustain, boons, blocks, dps, what ever the other classes get, it would not be the same class. It'd be another standard with no unique identity. The whole DPS train thing was just a result of the Raids, which I still firmly believe do not feel like Guild Wars. It was just something designed to be incredibly accessible, and they shoe horned the requirement of a paradigm which they sought to destroy. > > > > And no thief says that another player should not be able to fight back. The major complaint is that there is absolutely no reward to playing thief anymore. You genuinely don't feel like you are getting anything out of it. When everyone else can do everything you do better. > > > > It feels like complete kitten that you've outplayed your opponent multiple times in a single fight, but it often results in nothing. > > You die inside every time you play spvp, when you're universally hated with nothing to back the hate up. And worse of it all is being forced to go far because you're not valuable anywhere else. And other classes -can still do this-. > > > > And lord knows it's even more infuriating when the developers keep creating a loop where they have to see just how far they can bring this class into the dirt before the player count just drops to zero. > > You know that half of this isn't true. There are plenty of thief gankers who just want to destroy people. If there weren't, then WvW wouldn't have been full of roaming glass Deadeyes. Thieves have gone up and down in power, just like every other class in the game, and every time thieves go down they covet what other professions have. You yourself say "everyone else can do everything I do better." This doesn't change the issue at hand: an extremely mobile, invisible, bursty class is inherently unfun and unfair mechanically, and so it will always receive the brunt of the balancing decisions. Why are u in thief forums,u obviously don’t want the class to improve lmao it’s so transparent,another poster called u out on another thread. Go pretend to be a Eli player and tell them how their in such a great spot cuz theyve also been nerfed to the ground as core thief has, leave the thief forums to thiefs l Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > Getting stealth is reallyy easy for the thief. Thieves use initiative, so their weapon skills can all be spammed. > > it doesnt cost much, its just a button press away like any other ability to any profession. thieves skills being spammable to some degree doesnt mean their skills are free. > > You're trying to set up a false dichotomy. Look, I play thief. I've played against thieves. I know how easy it is to go into stealth. > yes it is easy to go in stealth, it still costs resources, while you basically did describe it as if the stealth + opener were free. > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > You can complain all you want about how strong you think the other professions are, but that is irrelevant to the issue at hand. So long as thieves are invisible, highly mobile, and have high burst, they will have to be the weakest class in the game overall.. Crawling over every other profession's individual strengths and weaknesses is a meaningless exercise, because it does not negate this dilemma in any way.. It doesn't matter_how_ they're stronger, only that they are. > > i dont complain about how strong other professions are, i just am looking for a reason to keep playing my thief outside of havin all the legendaries for it. and no they do not have to be overall stronger. because in overall you would already put in the thieves mobility, stealth etc. > > Every time this issue comes up, it is always sour grapes. "Look at Guardians! Look at Weavers! Look at Rangers!" You brought up Rangers yourself. You understand how that's all irrelevant, right? i said that right now i dont see why i should play in WvW my thief over my ranger, i didnt say i want what my ranger has. i want my thief to be different. > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > Seriously, think about this for a moment. For the sake of argument, lets say that the thief now magically has access to all the sustain, evades, barriers, blocks, boons, and DPS skills that the weaver gets, but also doesn't lose any mobility, stealth, or burst damage. What becomes of the weaver then? How will they get played, when there's another class that will always hunt them down and kill them with no warning, no realistic chance of winning, and no hope of escape? It seems ridiculous, but for many years that is exactly the problem we had. For the longest time, the underdog class wasn't the thief. It was the mesmer. Why? Because in PVP the thief could do basically everything the mesmer could, except harder, faster, and safer. I still remember the video where Helseth, a famous PVP mesmer main, decided to switch to thief because it was just a better mesmer, and mesmers just got ganked by thieves. What I am saying here isn't speculation: it's history. > > i never asked for any of that. i dont want thief to be like weaver. if i want to play weaver i play weaver. i want thief to keep its role. i want a reason to play thief over other options at hand for something. when i play spvp to build my guildhalls, thats were i play thief still. but in WvW i currently dont know why i should do so because i simply cannot pick my fights there better than on my other professions now, the very thing you give as reason as to why thief should be weak. > > Read: "For the sake of argument." wich is still irrelevant as you dont seem to understand, its not about thief gaining anything other profession have. its about thief being unique again. > > > To have a fair game, you _need to have a chance to fight back._ It would be stupid to design a game otherwise. Despite your insistence Crowd Control is not unfair. You can still see it coming. You can still counter-interrupt them. You can still dodge them. You can still use positioning to avoid it. You can still block it. Every class has a plethora of stun breaks at their beck and call. You can't do that with a thief. Positioning doesn't matter because thieves teleport around. You can't interrupt, dodge, or block them because you can't see them coming and thus won't know when to do it. Reveal skills are rare and they're trash. > > i never said that CC was unfair nor that i seek a fair game, please stop making assumptions. i merely said that it was a common used way to apply a burst. you can avoid being bursted from stealth with positioning and movement. sure the thief might still apply a burst with the help of an instant cast steal or utility, but that is mainly the power of instant abilities, they are pretty strong. > > You keep throwing "CC" at every mention of stealth and presenting them as equals. You did it twice now. Also, you cannot avoid being bursted from Stealth by a thief with positioning. You can't see them coming, so then you can't see where your position is against them. i dont present CC and stealth as equals. i present them as options that both serve a similar purpose. you dont need to see someone coming if you know where they went into stealth and the options they still have to move. > Look, it is possible for thieves to be underpowered, even if they have to be the weakest overall class in the game. Their feebleness is necessary to counter-balance the advantage of stealth, mobility, and burst. Thieves aren't supposed to be helpless even with them. being weaker in a straight brawl is perfectly fine, if they have superior mobility, stealth and burst and are allowed to use them. currently they are not in WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 I've found a strange kinship with Obtena here, because I'm seeing him try to convince the guardian forum that they're wrong about Righteous Indignation, and seeing similar blowback from players who just don't like it. All my admiration for his tenacity aside, I do not have the strength to carry on as such. > @"MUDse.7623" said: > being weaker in a straight brawl is perfectly fine, if they have superior mobility, stealth and burst and are allowed to use them. currently they are not in WvW. > This... is part of the idea that I am trying to convey. It is _design philosophy_ that I talking about. All of these other nitpicks, tangents, and distractions aside, I have but one question for you: **Do you understand what I am saying?** From the first post I made in this thread: do you get it? I do not care if you think thieves are currently too weak. That is an aside. I do not care what other advantages another class may have. That is an aside. I do not care if another class has one or more skills similar to the thief. That is an aside. I do not care if thieves do not currently have an identity. That is an aside. I do not care about the specifics of the current sPVP format. That is an aside. I do not care about the specifics of the current WvW format. That is an aside. I do not care how easily or hard you think it is to access these skills. That is an aside. I do not care how much your feelings get hurt by losing a fight. That is utterly irrelevant. Do you, or do you not, agree that it is unfair design to have a class that can always chase down another player and easily kill them while being completely invisible? If you do, then you understand why thief balance is such a precarious issue. If you do not, only then do I demand an explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > I've found a strange kinship with Obtena here, because I'm seeing him try to convince the guardian forum that they're wrong about Righteous Indignation, and seeing similar blowback from players who just don't like it. All my admiration for his tenacity aside, I do not have the strength to carry on as such. > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > being weaker in a straight brawl is perfectly fine, if they have superior mobility, stealth and burst and are allowed to use them. currently they are not in WvW. > > > > This... is part of the idea that I am trying to convey. It is _design philosophy_ that I talking about. All of these other nitpicks, tangents, and distractions aside, I have but one question for you: **Do you understand what I am saying?** From the first post I made in this thread: do you get it? > > I do not care if you think thieves are currently too weak. That is an aside. > I do not care what other advantages another class may have. That is an aside. > I do not care if another class has one or more skills similar to the thief. That is an aside. > I do not care if thieves do not currently have an identity. That is an aside. > I do not care about the specifics of the current sPVP format. That is an aside. > I do not care about the specifics of the current WvW format. That is an aside. > I do not care how easily or hard you think it is to access these skills. That is an aside. > I do not care how much your feelings get hurt by losing a fight. That is utterly irrelevant. > > Do you, or do you not, agree that it is unfair design to have a class that can always chase down another player and easily kill them while being completely invisible? If you do, then you understand why thief balance is such a precarious issue. If you do not, only then do I demand an explanation. i know that it is at a precarious state, however i cant really see from your posts what you want thieves to be able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > I've found a strange kinship with Obtena here, because I'm seeing him try to convince the guardian forum that they're wrong about Righteous Indignation, and seeing similar blowback from players who just don't like it. All my admiration for his tenacity aside, I do not have the strength to carry on as such. > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > being weaker in a straight brawl is perfectly fine, if they have superior mobility, stealth and burst and are allowed to use them. currently they are not in WvW. > > > > > > > This... is part of the idea that I am trying to convey. It is _design philosophy_ that I talking about. All of these other nitpicks, tangents, and distractions aside, I have but one question for you: **Do you understand what I am saying?** From the first post I made in this thread: do you get it? > > > > I do not care if you think thieves are currently too weak. That is an aside. > > I do not care what other advantages another class may have. That is an aside. > > I do not care if another class has one or more skills similar to the thief. That is an aside. > > I do not care if thieves do not currently have an identity. That is an aside. > > I do not care about the specifics of the current sPVP format. That is an aside. > > I do not care about the specifics of the current WvW format. That is an aside. > > I do not care how easily or hard you think it is to access these skills. That is an aside. > > I do not care how much your feelings get hurt by losing a fight. That is utterly irrelevant. > > > > Do you, or do you not, agree that it is unfair design to have a class that can always chase down another player and easily kill them while being completely invisible? If you do, then you understand why thief balance is such a precarious issue. If you do not, only then do I demand an explanation. > > i know that it is at a precarious state, however i cant really see from your posts what you want thieves to be able to. Nothing! He wants them to stay in the state their in so it’s one less class to have a challenge against,not many people want to thief thrive these days unfortunately and glad he’s found kinship with Obtena who’s was in guard section telling all the guard mains how op core guard was and that it deserved the nerfs while claiming to be a guard player lol sounds familiar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > Do you, or do you not, agree that it is unfair design to have a class that can always chase down another player and easily kill them while being completely invisible? If you do, then you understand why thief balance is such a precarious issue. If you do not, only then do I demand an explanation. Yes, I agree that it's unfair that someone can remain permanently in stealth. No one here is saying thief should be allowed to stay invisible 24/7 And no one is saying that DE's nerfs were unwarranted (just not handled well). But people also forget that those permastealth builds takes almost the entire Utility bar of the thief. And thieve's stealth is not free, nor is it cheap (Barring DE). Which is no where near as baffling as someone who's able to fight four players at a time, eat a lot of damage, and win. But do you not agree that it is not fair for the class who takes more risks and requires more out of the player than all other professions is not able to kill his target when he outplays, is generally more skilled, or what have you. But those he's fighting against has a burst much stronger than thieves, has access to an absurd amount of sustain without any ability to stop it. Almost every single fight I lost in WvW as a thief was simply because of A protection that magically reappeared just as quickly as I stripped it. And eventually I just stopped traiting for it as it wasn't worth it. Barriers that appear as quickly as I can destroy them without completely blowing my Ini. Things that causes me to deal zero damage or invulnerability. Which thieves kinda have in a trait... but it doesn't protect you from anything outside of direct attacks. I wait for too long for some of their boons to go away, and dive back in. And oops... they have another protective skill off cool down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > I've found a strange kinship with Obtena here, because I'm seeing him try to convince the guardian forum that they're wrong about Righteous Indignation, and seeing similar blowback from players who just don't like it. All my admiration for his tenacity aside, I do not have the strength to carry on as such. > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > being weaker in a straight brawl is perfectly fine, if they have superior mobility, stealth and burst and are allowed to use them. currently they are not in WvW. > > > > > > > This... is part of the idea that I am trying to convey. It is _design philosophy_ that I talking about. All of these other nitpicks, tangents, and distractions aside, I have but one question for you: **Do you understand what I am saying?** From the first post I made in this thread: do you get it? > > > > I do not care if you think thieves are currently too weak. That is an aside. > > I do not care what other advantages another class may have. That is an aside. > > I do not care if another class has one or more skills similar to the thief. That is an aside. > > I do not care if thieves do not currently have an identity. That is an aside. > > I do not care about the specifics of the current sPVP format. That is an aside. > > I do not care about the specifics of the current WvW format. That is an aside. > > I do not care how easily or hard you think it is to access these skills. That is an aside. > > I do not care how much your feelings get hurt by losing a fight. That is utterly irrelevant. > > > > Do you, or do you not, agree that it is unfair design to have a class that can always chase down another player and easily kill them while being completely invisible? If you do, then you understand why thief balance is such a precarious issue. If you do not, only then do I demand an explanation. > > i know that it is at a precarious state, however i cant really see from your posts what you want thieves to be able to. I came here to answer the OPs question. I do not have any grander designs for what I want thieves to be able to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > I've found a strange kinship with Obtena here, because I'm seeing him try to convince the guardian forum that they're wrong about Righteous Indignation, and seeing similar blowback from players who just don't like it. All my admiration for his tenacity aside, I do not have the strength to carry on as such. > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > being weaker in a straight brawl is perfectly fine, if they have superior mobility, stealth and burst and are allowed to use them. currently they are not in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > This... is part of the idea that I am trying to convey. It is _design philosophy_ that I talking about. All of these other nitpicks, tangents, and distractions aside, I have but one question for you: **Do you understand what I am saying?** From the first post I made in this thread: do you get it? > > > > > > I do not care if you think thieves are currently too weak. That is an aside. > > > I do not care what other advantages another class may have. That is an aside. > > > I do not care if another class has one or more skills similar to the thief. That is an aside. > > > I do not care if thieves do not currently have an identity. That is an aside. > > > I do not care about the specifics of the current sPVP format. That is an aside. > > > I do not care about the specifics of the current WvW format. That is an aside. > > > I do not care how easily or hard you think it is to access these skills. That is an aside. > > > I do not care how much your feelings get hurt by losing a fight. That is utterly irrelevant. > > > > > > Do you, or do you not, agree that it is unfair design to have a class that can always chase down another player and easily kill them while being completely invisible? If you do, then you understand why thief balance is such a precarious issue. If you do not, only then do I demand an explanation. > > > > i know that it is at a precarious state, however i cant really see from your posts what you want thieves to be able to. > > I came here to answer the OPs question. I do not have any grander designs for what I want thieves to be able to do. you said its hard to balance thief and less harm if thief is too weak then if he is too strong, so rather have it too weak. the professions in gw2 like in most roleplay games are not balanced one by one, but they just have each a role. i think that thief more or less lost that role in WvW. its not a matter of weak or strong. your right that the tools that form the thieves role are what you called the dark triad: mobility, stealth and burst. in WvW the mobility advantage of thief got nerfed over and over again over the years, both by adding more mobility to other professions and by making range damage stronger. with resent mounts this mobility advantage close to non existent. stealth got also constant indirect nerfs in adding more and more reveal buffs, with rather recent mark buff changes and putting scrapper into a commonly used spec, stealth is also of rather low value. all that while also reducing our damage and the reliability of our damage relative to other profession. i mean i understand why the dark triad can be a problem, if the thief is too far ahead in each of those areas, but the advantages specifically in WvW are now so far behind, that it can hardly be used as a reason to keep thief down. one could get up an area of it again a bit or buff in other areas to compensate. in spvp there are no mounts , no marked, people during fight stick more to nodes so you can use mobility a bit better and especially they are not as tanky as players in WvW. therefor i think thief is in a better position in spvp than it is in WvW. the only plus in WvW is that the quality of opponents varies much more so you can kill some players with any build if you are half decent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > I've found a strange kinship with Obtena here, because I'm seeing him try to convince the guardian forum that they're wrong about Righteous Indignation, and seeing similar blowback from players who just don't like it. All my admiration for his tenacity aside, I do not have the strength to carry on as such. > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > being weaker in a straight brawl is perfectly fine, if they have superior mobility, stealth and burst and are allowed to use them. currently they are not in WvW. > > > > This... is part of the idea that I am trying to convey. It is _design philosophy_ that I talking about. All of these other nitpicks, tangents, and distractions aside, I have but one question for you: **Do you understand what I am saying?** From the first post I made in this thread: do you get it? > > I do not care if you think thieves are currently too weak. That is an aside. > I do not care what other advantages another class may have. That is an aside. > I do not care if another class has one or more skills similar to the thief. That is an aside. > I do not care if thieves do not currently have an identity. That is an aside. > I do not care about the specifics of the current sPVP format. That is an aside. > I do not care about the specifics of the current WvW format. That is an aside. > I do not care how easily or hard you think it is to access these skills. That is an aside. > I do not care how much your feelings get hurt by losing a fight. That is utterly irrelevant. > > Do you, or do you not, agree that it is unfair design to have a class that can always chase down another player and easily kill them while being completely invisible? If you do, then you understand why thief balance is such a precarious issue. If you do not, only then do I demand an explanation. Do realize that most people still playing this game are running purely on power-fantasy, most of these people playing abusable cheese with no regard for the interactions and skill in the PvP modes; those players generally all quit with the blatant powercreep with the expansions. It's the same in every subsection. People insisting Mirage Cloak was fine, that ranger needs more buffs, and so on. Most posts are frankly total BS. Like the person complaining above how thief has only been nerfed yet neglects tons of CDR across several utilities, sword AA being buffed by 40%, Unload being buffed by almost 35%, and several skills facing initiative cost changes and other minor buffs. Did people forget that Dagger AA out-damaged everything the thief otherwise had, making casting skills pointless when trying to opt for kill pressure, thanks to nearly a 30% buff previously? When people complain about the thief being weak... it's going to be so long as cheesy, un-fun builds like SA Deadeye exist. Otherwise, the onus is on the other professions being downright braindead and uncounterable. It's supposed to be a class with a high skill ceiling, and anyone making the claim most of the OP's today, and builds like DA DE required a lot of skill to pull off are deluding themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > I've found a strange kinship with Obtena here, because I'm seeing him try to convince the guardian forum that they're wrong about Righteous Indignation, and seeing similar blowback from players who just don't like it. All my admiration for his tenacity aside, I do not have the strength to carry on as such. > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > being weaker in a straight brawl is perfectly fine, if they have superior mobility, stealth and burst and are allowed to use them. currently they are not in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > > > > This... is part of the idea that I am trying to convey. It is _design philosophy_ that I talking about. All of these other nitpicks, tangents, and distractions aside, I have but one question for you: **Do you understand what I am saying?** From the first post I made in this thread: do you get it? > > > > > > > > I do not care if you think thieves are currently too weak. That is an aside. > > > > I do not care what other advantages another class may have. That is an aside. > > > > I do not care if another class has one or more skills similar to the thief. That is an aside. > > > > I do not care if thieves do not currently have an identity. That is an aside. > > > > I do not care about the specifics of the current sPVP format. That is an aside. > > > > I do not care about the specifics of the current WvW format. That is an aside. > > > > I do not care how easily or hard you think it is to access these skills. That is an aside. > > > > I do not care how much your feelings get hurt by losing a fight. That is utterly irrelevant. > > > > > > > > Do you, or do you not, agree that it is unfair design to have a class that can always chase down another player and easily kill them while being completely invisible? If you do, then you understand why thief balance is such a precarious issue. If you do not, only then do I demand an explanation. > > > > > > i know that it is at a precarious state, however i cant really see from your posts what you want thieves to be able to. > > > > I came here to answer the OPs question. I do not have any grander designs for what I want thieves to be able to do. > > you said its hard to balance thief and less harm if thief is too weak then if he is too strong, so rather have it too weak. > the professions in gw2 like in most roleplay games are not balanced one by one, but they just have each a role. i think that thief more or less lost that role in WvW. its not a matter of weak or strong. your right that the tools that form the thieves role are what you called the dark triad: mobility, stealth and burst. in WvW the mobility advantage of thief got nerfed over and over again over the years, both by adding more mobility to other professions and by making range damage stronger. with resent mounts this mobility advantage close to non existent. stealth got also constant indirect nerfs in adding more and more reveal buffs, with rather recent mark buff changes and putting scrapper into a commonly used spec, stealth is also of rather low value. all that while also reducing our damage and the reliability of our damage relative to other profession. i mean i understand why the dark triad can be a problem, if the thief is too far ahead in each of those areas, but the advantages specifically in WvW are now so far behind, that it can hardly be used as a reason to keep thief down. one could get up an area of it again a bit or buff in other areas to compensate. > in spvp there are no mounts , no marked, people during fight stick more to nodes so you can use mobility a bit better and especially they are not as tanky as players in WvW. therefor i think thief is in a better position in spvp than it is in WvW. the only plus in WvW is that the quality of opponents varies much more so you can kill some players with any build if you are half decent. I don't care about all of that. In an ideal world, all of the classes would be balanced, even with all their themes and gimmicks. But, for any practical sense, the devs use the nerf hammer liberally on thieves due to all the grief they can cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 Lmao sword buffed 40% unload buffed dude ur delusional. U can build full zerker pop Assassin signet and ur so called buffed sword auto’s are half the dps of most classes now especially with the booms other classes can give themselves on a near constant basis and unload lmao no one uses it because for the initiative cost even with the return the dps is garbage just like the whole kit is. Maybe in pve world their sufficient but at same time ur not providing anything to anyone around u and even than most classes eat pve enemies better while helping those around them. In PvP those skill tickle most classes now. Look at the last few sindrener vids on youtube he’s a very skilled player and mentions many times the noodle damage the class is putting out these days against the powercrept crap classes have these days.sure thief would be balanced if dps and sustain was lowered across all the classes but how likely is that ever gonna happen?not everyone wants to build around stealth backstab bullshit,sword 3 spam and staff vault spam,shits so boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > I've found a strange kinship with Obtena here, because I'm seeing him try to convince the guardian forum that they're wrong about Righteous Indignation, and seeing similar blowback from players who just don't like it. All my admiration for his tenacity aside, I do not have the strength to carry on as such. > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > being weaker in a straight brawl is perfectly fine, if they have superior mobility, stealth and burst and are allowed to use them. currently they are not in WvW. > > > > > > > This... is part of the idea that I am trying to convey. It is _design philosophy_ that I talking about. All of these other nitpicks, tangents, and distractions aside, I have but one question for you: **Do you understand what I am saying?** From the first post I made in this thread: do you get it? > > > > I do not care if you think thieves are currently too weak. That is an aside. > > I do not care what other advantages another class may have. That is an aside. > > I do not care if another class has one or more skills similar to the thief. That is an aside. > > I do not care if thieves do not currently have an identity. That is an aside. > > I do not care about the specifics of the current sPVP format. That is an aside. > > I do not care about the specifics of the current WvW format. That is an aside. > > I do not care how easily or hard you think it is to access these skills. That is an aside. > > I do not care how much your feelings get hurt by losing a fight. That is utterly irrelevant. > > > > Do you, or do you not, agree that it is unfair design to have a class that can always chase down another player and easily kill them while being completely invisible? If you do, then you understand why thief balance is such a precarious issue. If you do not, only then do I demand an explanation. > > Do realize that most people still playing this game are running purely on power-fantasy, most of these people playing abusable cheese with no regard for the interactions and skill in the PvP modes; those players generally all quit with the blatant powercreep with the expansions. It's the same in every subsection. People insisting Mirage Cloak was fine, that ranger needs more buffs, and so on. Most posts are frankly total BS. > > Like the person complaining above how thief has only been nerfed yet neglects tons of CDR across several utilities, sword AA being buffed by 40%, Unload being buffed by almost 35%, and several skills facing initiative cost changes and other minor buffs. Did people forget that Dagger AA out-damaged everything the thief otherwise had, making casting skills pointless when trying to opt for kill pressure, thanks to nearly a 30% buff previously? > > When people complain about the thief being weak... it's going to be so long as cheesy, un-fun builds like SA Deadeye exist. Otherwise, the onus is on the other professions being downright braindead and uncounterable. It's supposed to be a class with a high skill ceiling, and anyone making the claim most of the OP's today, and builds like DA DE required a lot of skill to pull off are deluding themselves. Patch Note history, Sword: * Jan 26, 2016 Sword Auto attack has the attack point of the skill increased by .16 seconds. I guess this means the time when it registeres hits has been pushed back. Not significant * Mar 27 2018 Reduced Damage overall by 14%, this means the whole auto chain. No details on what per attack hit was. Judging by Dagger's auto chain it's likely massive hits for the first two blows. Summery, Information is not correct according to actual sources. They hurt skill 2 to prevent the thief from popping in and out too quickly. Removed the stun break on Shadow Return and gave it a delay. The skill also had infinite range for some reason, which we all agree was bullshit. They increased the damage to 3 and made it unblockable. But the damage is only increased if the target does not have boons. Good luck. So... that three.... Which is where the big dick damage is supposed to be. Flanking Strike: * Oct 2012 First Strike is Unblockable. * April 2013 Now Evade and delivers one strike. Reduced ini cost from 4 to 3. Now toggles for 5 seconds to second skill. Improved reliability of flanking strike (one of the few rare bug fixes thieves get that benefits them.) (removed unblockable by the way) * Aug 2013 Removed a redundant damage fact.....? * April 2014 updated skill facts to show bonus damage from combined training (no longer exists). * Sep 2014 Skill must now succuesfully hit target to switch to second skill. Increased in cost back to 4 again. * Jun 2015 Dual wield skill buff stuff. No longer get benefits from movement speed. * Aug 2017 Now unblockable again. I don't feel like listing the history of the second skill. In short... It got the cost adjusted from 1ini to 2 ini. Then back down to 1 again. Two years after introduction it now steals two instead of 1 boon. And the cost went back up to 2 ini again. And then it got a damage bonus of 20% only if the target doesn't have any boons in 2017... which is long after the fact that most classes can generate boons like crazy. So the damage spike is rarely seen. Long story short... Total skill cost is 6. Unload: * Sep 2014 Increased speed of the skill by 20. * Jun 2015 Specialization update *ALL SKILLS CATEGORIZED AS DUAL WIELD* damage increase by 5% * sep 2015 Increased damage increased per shot by 26% * April 106 Skill now grants 1 might for 8 seconds for striking an enemy. * May 2016 Skill now refunds 2 ini if ALL ATTACKS HITS * Jul 2018 July, Initiative cost between game modes split. PvP and WvW costs 6 ini and refunds only 1 if all attacks hits. PvE cost is 5 but refunds 2 if all attacks hit. Summary: Unload did get buffed, so you're not wrong. However, no one is using it, and I guess Guess anet doesn't understand why. The initiative cost is high, the refund only counts if all attacks deal damage (Which they never do in pvp). And in a pool of 12 (15 with Trickery) you're only casting this twice before being unable to do anything else. What made the skill dependable in PvP was Ricochet. The skill only had one self synergy and that was with black powder... which the combo all together cost 11 out of your 12 initiative. But with ricochet, you had a decent chance of the bullet bouncing off to other targets and applying combo field effects. Initiative Mitigation, most of it you need to trait for. 1 every 10 seconds from Infiltrators signet. **IF** a thief carries it, its not for the passive. Upper hand in Acrobatics. 1 ini for a single evade every 5 seconds. Trickery Trait: Kleptomaniac: Stealing restores 2 ini. Trickery Trait Preparedness: Changes ini pool from 12 to 15. Trickery Trait Quick Pockets: restores only 3 ini for swapping weapons. Shadow Arts Trait Shadow's Rejuvination: 1 initiative for every 3 seconds in stealth... So... as you can see... cost is kinda important to a thief. And it usually decides what we do and what we don't use. Also the play style. And with the poor reward you get for actually fighting... you can see why thieves go for certain traits. We can only use two or three skills at most before running out. Which is why the Auto attack damage was a huge concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobrakon.3108 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > I can explain it. To borrow from Extra Credits: It is important that a mechanic be fun for both the person doing it, and the person receiving it. > > Take the mobility for example. Being the most mobile class in the game means that the thief must be one of the weakest in a direct engagement. If they aren't, and there's another class that loses to the thief in a straight up brawl, then that other class can't be played, for it will forever be slow moving prey for the thief. Likewise, the burst can't be too high, because otherwise the class that can't take the burst could never be played, for it will forever be slow moving prey for the thief. Etc. and so on. > Then plz plz break my thieve's knee caps and give us assassin level damage. Let Thief avoid the worry of buff watching and make it more positional play with special abilities that ignore armor or blocks or invulns. Make backstab only work well from behind and bring it up higher. Reduce auto attack dmg, drastically making it the worst damage in the game, but give us hard to use high damage abilities. Kung Fu.... Dodge,>Skilled CC>Backstab I want to see something more like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Won’t happen unfortunately,no matter the difficulty of set up if thief hits hard with any of its skills regardless of its sustain the nerf cry’s will flood in constantly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lare.5129 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 The changes is good. Tief should die asap, if make mistake. This is part of profession - if have skill = cool, no skill - downstate asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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