Discipline (more specifically, "Fast Hands")

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > > Person 1: "I think change A would be good for reason A"

> > > >

> > > > Still waiting for this first step to be honest because reasons **build diversity** and **fluidity** don't make much sense.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Please see the "Instead we got" portion. You're one of those people saying "Why would you think that". I've explained why, but instead of providing constructive alternatives in return you just disregard without reason's to why with this "I know better than you, don't question me" attitude. How can you expect people to respond positively to that?

> >

> > If you want constructive alternatives to build diversity, the answer is to stop thinking about how to make everything equivalent to the best or your favourite builds. This game is not designed so that there is a large pick of best builds to choose from. If you want diversity, you can have it, but you are going to settle for something that isn't ideal. That's simply how the game is designed.

>

> I can see why you would think that, specially with how limited some professions are. I have to disagree that it's their intention for it to be that way. I think they are trying to make a large of a pool of builds as possible. Unlike other games you're able to easily swap traits and skills which to me would suggest they want lots of variety. Now, they may not be doing the best at it but I would like for them to and that's why I make suggestions (both good and bad ones).

 

Again, you are linking build diversity with performance; there is already a large pool of possible builds. The question isn't if they exist, they do. Even if that's the case, I am definitely of the strong opinion that if you give a baseline effect to a whole class, any traitline that takes advantage of that baseline effect by default, becomes way more appealing than it did before that baseline effect was given. That is NOT a positive change for build diversity.

 

> >

> > If you want fluidity, then stick with Discipline, because that's the point of Anet giving players meaningful choices with a trait system. You can't expect all builds to play like those that have Discipline; that's why you have choice.

>

> I get what you're saying, there are defiantly certain aspects of a profession that should be bound to specific trait lines. I completely agree with that part. I don't think fluidity is one of them though as it an integral part of the games combat. How fluid the combat feels is one of the main reasons I play the game. It doesn't seem right to have to choose between having fluid combat or having a different build. For instance, with Revenant and Elemenalist combat feels really fluid to me no matter the build because I have a lot of skills to cycle through. With warriors though they have significantly less to manage and not having that ability to swap between weapon skills as soon as possible really breaks what fluidity that Discipline gives, mainly due to fast hands.

>

Unfortunately, that's a completely subjective view. I'm not even sure how to begin quantifying what is 'fluid' or not, so from my POV, that's not a strong argument to make FH baseline. What I do know is that access to weapon skills are barely affected by a change from 9 to 5 second swapping. That's the only measurable for 'fluid' play I can imagine.

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> >

> > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

>

> Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

>

> I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

 

And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

 

You realize that other classes work without Fast Hands because they have instant casts, pets, phantasms, and burst mitigation for team mates right? Warrior doesn't need any of that, OTHER CLASSES can have it for an identity. Warrior's identity is fine as is (A class that relies on stow weapon or FREQUENT weapon swap fake-outs for a high skill cap, no instant cast, no pets, etc [just being an honest class with no pet or instant cast garbage])

 

We didn't "simply demand it" we SUGGESTED it before ANET does their own thing. And when ANET does their own thing that no one asked for? That's a lot worse.

 

Literally, you're almost tolerable but you can't think of a specific idea that would make your premise work. You would legit have to give Warrior instant cast or some stupid crap. And you at least agreed to me that your route could be A LOT MORE EVIL, but I want to hear a "specific alternative" that isn't broken or useless because MAYBE, just MAYBE you are truly better than any of the other guys who counter-argued against it but failed.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > You already did that since at least page... 3, probably. Stop playing a victim. :)

> You should also include this sentence right before "I cannot answer to everyone, that was one of the reasons why I didn't want to engage in this thread anymore, it was just overwhelming."

> Stop pulling things out of context please. I am not supercomputer capable of everything. I really try to explain things, believe or not but I think when typing all those walls of text, it is exhausting and overwhelming sometimes.

 

?

 

>I already did, but you simply ignored the whole posts or parts of them just to avoid answering to anything. **Why am I supposed to repeat myself for 5th time, when you'll just ignore it again and then claim that I said nothing? It's funny how you used some idiotic excuse like "I won't answer to the rest because I'm tired/it took me too long already!" and for the past page you show your frustration with humongous wall of texts with personal attacks directed at other people while using "@" me for some reason.** Stop embarrassing yourself.

 

 

The answer to this stays 100% the same because despite not quoting it, I still answered to that in the previous quote. Do you even understand what you read? Nothing is "out of context".

You couldn't answer to everyone, but suddenly spamming walls of text for the past 2 pages of this thead doesn't seem to bother you? Moreover, the reason why you chose not to answer doesn't really matter, what matters is that **you did omit posts when you wanted to** and **after that** kept telling people that they "don't answer to what you wrote". Stop lying just because it's more convenient for you this way.

 

Coincidentally (but really: as is tradition) you didn't answer to the rest of the post and just decided to **nitpick at me not quoting a single sentence that I answered to anyways**. This is how you keep answering all the time and then you're wondering why nobody will waste their time theorycrafting shit for you, lmao. You're just not worth the effort.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> If you want constructive alternatives to build diversity, the answer is to stop thinking about how to make everything equivalent to the best or your favourite builds. This game is not designed so that there is a large pick of best builds to choose from. If you want diversity, you can have it, but you are going to settle for something that isn't ideal. That's simply how the game is designed.

>

> If you want fluidity, then stick with Discipline, because that's the point of Anet giving players meaningful choices with a trait system. You can't expect all builds to play like those that have Discipline; that's why Discipline is a good traitline ... it feels different than other traitlines. That's the whole kitten point.

 

This is actually very good point, but FH baseline is a constructive alternative. We want to discuss the impact of it on builds, exact things, but you don't. But why? Because you don't find it as a constructive alternative? Why? Because you don't want FH trait baseline to be main factor to unite warrior builds?

"It's not a universal truth that non-Discipline builds are in need of improvement and that THE way to do that is with baseline FH." It is called alternative way of improving non-Discipline builds. Or you think that non-Discipline builds don't need improvement?

 

At this point, it is not about why and how FH baseline is bad idea, it is why you don't want it to be constructive alternative.

 

"If you want fluidity, then stick with Discipline, because that's the point of Anet giving players meaningful choices with a trait system. You can't expect all builds to play like those that have Discipline; that's why Discipline is a good traitline ... it feels different than other traitlines. That's the whole kitten point."

If we want fluidity, we have to restrain ourselves to Discipline traitline, therefore to have build variety as we have now.

But then you also mention to nerf to Discipline traitline to promote non-Discipline builds. Hmm...

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > >

> > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> >

> > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> >

> > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

>

> And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

>

 

I don't need to find an alternative (and it seems no one i this thread on either side tries to find one too). I don't see base line Fast Hands as a solution. I see a far to strong Discipline tree which needs rework though.

 

On the contrary, I think base line Fast Hands and the utility it brings would cause severe nerfs to warrior on many levels. Something most people are willfully ignoring here.

 

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> You realize that other classes work without Fast Hands because they have instant casts, pets, phantasms, and burst mitigation for team mates right? Warrior doesn't need any of that, OTHER CLASSES can have it for an identity. Warrior's identity is fine as is (A class that relies on stow weapon or weapon swap fake-outs for a high skill cap, no instant cast, no pets, etc [just being an honest class with no pet or instant cast garbage])

>

 

Every single class would benefit from Fast Hands, thiefs and revenant even more than warriors. So no, this is again wild speculation and no argument on the warriors side.

 

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> We didn't "simply demand it" we SUGGESTED it before ANET does their own thing. And when ANET does their own thing that no one asked for? That's a lot worse.

>

 

I have no problem with suggestions. I do have a problem with this religious zealous near fanatical defense of a suggestion without considering that focusing on other approaches would be far more productive and more likely than this change.

 

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> Literally, you're almost tolerable but you can't think of a specific idea that would make your premise work. You would legit have to give Warrior instant cast or some stupid kitten. And you at least agreed to me that your route could be A LOT MORE EVIL, but I want to hear a "specific alternative" that isn't broken or useless because MAYBE, just MAYBE you are truly better than any of the other guys who counter-argued against it but failed.

 

I agreed that any change could be far worse. I also said that changing 1 of 9 classes on a fundamental level would cause even greater issues. Look at how Mirage and its unique dodge causes problems (and it;s an elite specialization). That's the type of change you are in for balance wise. I seriously doubt Arenanet is even going to go remotely in that direction, at most with an elite specialization and even that is a very big IF after Mirage.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > If you want constructive alternatives to build diversity, the answer is to stop thinking about how to make everything equivalent to the best or your favourite builds. This game is not designed so that there is a large pick of best builds to choose from. If you want diversity, you can have it, but you are going to settle for something that isn't ideal. That's simply how the game is designed.

> >

> > If you want fluidity, then stick with Discipline, because that's the point of Anet giving players meaningful choices with a trait system. You can't expect all builds to play like those that have Discipline; that's why Discipline is a good traitline ... it feels different than other traitlines. That's the whole kitten point.

>

> This is actually very good point, but FH baseline is a constructive alternative. We want to discuss the impact of it on builds, exact things, but you don't. But why? Because you don't find it as a constructive alternative?

 

No, because it's no value as long as you haven't got good reasons to make FH baseline. You can discuss how awesome it would help builds all you want, but that's not meaningful if there isn't a reason to do it. Making things better isn't a reason to buff something, PERIOD. It's trivial. You have to provide reasons why these things NEED to be better in the first place, then explain why FH baseline is the best way you think it can be done. None of that happening here.

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > >

> > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> >

> > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> >

> > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

>

> And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

 

It's not his job to "find an alternative", the thread is about someone proposing turning FH into a class unique passive and after people disagreeing told you why it's a stupid idea, that's all there is to it. Nobody is supposed to "come up with better idea" so they can dismiss another one. That's not how it works. There's a thread with a poll and a question "what you'd change about the warrior" (or something along these lines), your complaint might pass in that thread. Nobody is obligated to come up with a "counter-idea" just because they disagreed with yours.

[BlackTruth.6813]

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > > >

> > > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> > >

> > > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> > >

> > > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

> >

> > And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

> >

>

> I don't need to find an alternative (and it seems no one i this thread on either side tries to find one too). I don't see base line Fast Hands as a solution. I see a far to strong Discipline tree which needs rework though.

>

> On the contrary, I think base line Fast Hands and the utility it brings would cause severe nerfs to warrior on many levels. Something most people are willfully ignoring here.

>

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > You realize that other classes work without Fast Hands because they have instant casts, pets, phantasms, and burst mitigation for team mates right? Warrior doesn't need any of that, OTHER CLASSES can have it for an identity. Warrior's identity is fine as is (A class that relies on stow weapon or weapon swap fake-outs for a high skill cap, no instant cast, no pets, etc [just being an honest class with no pet or instant cast garbage])

> >

>

> Every single class would benefit from Fast Hands, thiefs and revenant even more than warriors. So no, this is again wild speculation and no argument on the warriors side.

>

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > We didn't "simply demand it" we SUGGESTED it before ANET does their own thing. And when ANET does their own thing that no one asked for? That's a lot worse.

> >

>

> I have no problem with suggestions. I do have a problem with this religious zealous near fanatical defense of a suggestion without considering that focusing on other approaches would be far more productive and more likely than this change.

>

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > Literally, you're almost tolerable but you can't think of a specific idea that would make your premise work. You would legit have to give Warrior instant cast or some stupid kitten. And you at least agreed to me that your route could be A LOT MORE EVIL, but I want to hear a "specific alternative" that isn't broken or useless because MAYBE, just MAYBE you are truly better than any of the other guys who counter-argued against it but failed.

>

> I agreed that any change could be far worse. I also said that changing 1 of 9 classes on a fundamental level would cause even greater issues. Look at how Mirage and its unique dodge causes problems (and it;s an elite specialization). That's the type of change you are in for balance wise. I seriously doubt Arenanet is even going to go remotely in that direction, at most with an elite specialization and even that is a very big IF.

 

1.) YOU CANNOT nerf discipline right now. It has to stay is, the only time it is getting changed is when other classes get nerfed. I am hoping this is not what you are implying.

2.) Severe nerfs? Are you.. CHANGING STORIES? I THOUGHT IT WAS POWERCREEP?

3.) You are missing the point, other classes WORK without fast hands. People on the sPvP thread have already said Warrior is the most balance class in PvP even with fast hands. Fast hands is Warrior exclusive, all the strong builds right now have discipline, that is what you see in sPvP. Therefore, there is a somewhat close to unbiased statistic that counters your premise already.

4.) DO NOT compared the old FULL 1 second dodge, to something that gives Warrior (a non-evade spamming class while attacking, a class without instant cast, a class without pet) the ability to just fake-out more often with weapon swap, ability to just swap from a CC weapon to a DPS weapon often, the ability to not be a stuck on a non-defensive weapon for long periods of time. Evade spam has been HISTORICALLY worse, baseline fast hands will not give Warrior that.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > > >

> > > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> > >

> > > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> > >

> > > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

> >

> > And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

>

> It's not his job to "find an alternative", the thread is about someone proposing turning FH into a class unique passive and after people disagreeing told you why it's a stupid idea, that's all there is to it. Nobody is supposed to "come up with better idea" so they can dismiss another one. That's not how it works. There's a thread with a poll and a question "what you'd change about the warrior" (or something along these lines), your complaint might pass in that thread. Nobody is obligated to come up with a "counter-idea" just because they disagreed with yours.

 

And because you cannot find a solid counterargument, you are DOOMED to fail to convince me otherwise. Also, I can argue that you project your own evil, you are borderline trying to censor people because you think people are DEMANDING things, not trying to make a potentially constructive suggestion before ANET does something catastrophic.

 

So I ask again, what is your premise? Why is baseline fast hands **catastrophic?**

 

If you are having trouble finding one, then use Odik's (Str/Def/Spellbreaker, and how it works) or melandru's (being "stuck" in rifle with a non-discipline build should be "part" of the balance, but it's already a weak build) templates. Go.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> 2.) Severe nerfs? Are you.. CHANGING STORIES? I THOUGHT IT WAS POWERCREEP?

 

From what I understand, he's saying that making FH as a class passive would inevitably bring nerfs with that change. It's not him "changing stories", it's your inability to read and connect the facts, because you are too occupied with ridiculing him.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > > > >

> > > > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> > > >

> > > > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> > > >

> > > > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

> > >

> > > And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

> > >

> >

> > I don't need to find an alternative (and it seems no one i this thread on either side tries to find one too). I don't see base line Fast Hands as a solution. I see a far to strong Discipline tree which needs rework though.

> >

> > On the contrary, I think base line Fast Hands and the utility it brings would cause severe nerfs to warrior on many levels. Something most people are willfully ignoring here.

> >

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > You realize that other classes work without Fast Hands because they have instant casts, pets, phantasms, and burst mitigation for team mates right? Warrior doesn't need any of that, OTHER CLASSES can have it for an identity. Warrior's identity is fine as is (A class that relies on stow weapon or weapon swap fake-outs for a high skill cap, no instant cast, no pets, etc [just being an honest class with no pet or instant cast garbage])

> > >

> >

> > Every single class would benefit from Fast Hands, thiefs and revenant even more than warriors. So no, this is again wild speculation and no argument on the warriors side.

> >

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > We didn't "simply demand it" we SUGGESTED it before ANET does their own thing. And when ANET does their own thing that no one asked for? That's a lot worse.

> > >

> >

> > I have no problem with suggestions. I do have a problem with this religious zealous near fanatical defense of a suggestion without considering that focusing on other approaches would be far more productive and more likely than this change.

> >

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > Literally, you're almost tolerable but you can't think of a specific idea that would make your premise work. You would legit have to give Warrior instant cast or some stupid kitten. And you at least agreed to me that your route could be A LOT MORE EVIL, but I want to hear a "specific alternative" that isn't broken or useless because MAYBE, just MAYBE you are truly better than any of the other guys who counter-argued against it but failed.

> >

> > I agreed that any change could be far worse. I also said that changing 1 of 9 classes on a fundamental level would cause even greater issues. Look at how Mirage and its unique dodge causes problems (and it;s an elite specialization). That's the type of change you are in for balance wise. I seriously doubt Arenanet is even going to go remotely in that direction, at most with an elite specialization and even that is a very big IF.

>

> 1.) YOU CANNOT nerf discipline right now. It has to stay is, the only time it is getting changed is when other classes get nerfed. I am hoping this is not what you are implying.

 

Incorrect, you don't WANT discipline nerfed right now. Anything can be done. Obviously I am not suggestion nerfing Discipline without addressing the other trait lines.

 

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> 2.) Severe nerfs? Are you.. CHANGING STORIES? I THOUGHT IT WAS POWERCREEP?

 

How is that changing stories. If warrior gets nerfed severly DUE TO POWER CREEP? Please try to keep up while raging?

 

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> 3.) You are missing the point, other classes WORK without fast hands. People on the sPvP thread have already said Warrior is the most balance class in PvP even with fast hands. Fast hands is Warrior exclusive, all the strong builds right now have discipline, that is what you see in sPvP. Therefore, there is a somewhat close to unbiased statistic that counters your premise already.

 

Yes, because the spvp forums are a prime source of constructive information. Sorry but a forum where the Flavor of the month class gets picked on because people are shit at the game is hardly a good source for constructive feedback. Last to be seen with Mirage, which got wacked into uselessness because it was un-fun to play against, but certainly not overpowered. Meanwhile Boonbeast rains supreme.

 

Even if it were so, Warrior working with Fast Hands is no argument that it can't work without Fast Hands with the appropriate changes. You simply WANT it to work with Fast Hands because it's more fun to play. Which is actually the ONLY valid argument one could make: Fast Hands makes the class more fun.

 

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> 4.) DO NOT compared the old FULL 1 second dodge, to something that gives Warrior (a non-evade spamming class while attacking, a class without instant cast, a class without pet) the ability to just fake-out more often with weapon swap, ability to just swap from a CC weapon to a DPS weapon often, the ability to not be a stuck on a non-defensive weapon for long periods of time. Evade spam has been HISTORICALLY worse, baseline fast hands will not give Warrior that.

 

I am comparing just that. Both changes are changes on a fundamental level which makes a base class behave unique versus all the 8 other classes in a respective field.

 

If you want me to start naming the major benefits of warrior, how about we start with: it's literally the only class which can survive for 40 seconds on berserker gear while being focused down by any amount of opponents. Also please remain true: Fast Hands is not about the fake out, it's a HUGE access benefit and flexibility with almost constant access to both weapon abilities. Having access to 10 skills versus 5 skills faster is huge for any class. If you want I could give you some examples of other classes and how they would 1 shot people given 5 second weapon swaps.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > 2.) Severe nerfs? Are you.. CHANGING STORIES? I THOUGHT IT WAS POWERCREEP?

>

> From what I understand, he's saying that making FH as a class passive would inevitably bring nerfs with that change, it's not him "changing stories", it's your inability to read and connect the facts, because you are too occupied with ridiculing him.

 

Sure, I have already said that Reckless dodge and Bull's charge will possibly get nerfed, and that is fine. It will be realistically in a big patch anyways (along with other class nerfs), and dodge spamming while attacking has ALWAYS been stupid and not very Warrior like. I'm just saying there is a hypothetical way that ANET can do it the right way and that these "severe nerfs" can actually push more build variety without touching it's fundamentals and original usage.

 

In-fact, if ANET could nerf Rampage (so maybe Signet of Rage might be viable) while putting out baseline fast hands while Warrior being relevant to the meta and still balanced compared to other classes? That actually might be good.

 

So I ask you again, what **greater evil is going to happen?**

 

Does it give Warrior instant cast? Does it give Warrior the ability to ignore protection?

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > If you want constructive alternatives to build diversity, the answer is to stop thinking about how to make everything equivalent to the best or your favourite builds. This game is not designed so that there is a large pick of best builds to choose from. If you want diversity, you can have it, but you are going to settle for something that isn't ideal. That's simply how the game is designed.

> > >

> > > If you want fluidity, then stick with Discipline, because that's the point of Anet giving players meaningful choices with a trait system. You can't expect all builds to play like those that have Discipline; that's why Discipline is a good traitline ... it feels different than other traitlines. That's the whole kitten point.

> >

> > This is actually very good point, but FH baseline is a constructive alternative. We want to discuss the impact of it on builds, exact things, but you don't. But why? Because you don't find it as a constructive alternative?

>

> No, because it's no value as long as you haven't got good reasons to make FH baseline. You can discuss how awesome it would help builds all you want, but that's not meaningful because there are issues (my three points) that you can't address.

>

> Making things better isn't a reason to buff something, PERIOD. It's trivial.

 

OK then:

 

1. No one has a non-trivial, sensible reason make FH baseline. The burden to show FH baseline is a needed change is on the people proposing the idea. Calling people that disagree with you ignorant, scared or whatever does not help your cause ... or keep those people from continually pointing out what is flawed with the ideas being presented for baseline FH.

- there is nothing trivial about wanting improved non-Discipline builds, which are obviously less used and underperforming in most situations

- FH baseline is an alternative way to improve those builds by making weapon skill usage flexibility united with Discipline builds, therefore there is not as huge difference when coming from Discipline build to non-Discipline build when it comes to weapon usage, rotations, etc

- the reason why I call people ignorant is because I conclude from their argumenting and statements that they are unable to provide specific examples and discuss on certain level certain things, e.g. if people say powercreep, I want to discuss how exactly, where, but they avoid that; or other example: I want you to understand how important Fast Hands is for warrior to be competetive and versatile, but you don't want to understand that and even if you would, you would still call it trivial, or even propose nerf;

___

2. You yourself have created a paradox where you indicate FH baseline is not strong enough to break non-Discipline builds but is good enough to fix them all. That of course make no sense whatsoever.

- I haven't. As I said before:

It is not paradox, you just made it to sound like one to support your arguments.

Fast Hands minor trait is strong enough to improve non-Discipline builds to the point of possibly creating competetive builds (build variety = which we want), but it is not strong enough to make them broken, overpowered, overperforming for nowadays standards."

How can you buff directly other traitlines (the alternative way) and make them competetive without making them on par with current competetive warrior builds and builds of all professions?

___

3. Handing out FH as baseline for the trivial or nonsensical reasons that have been presented are a slight to the concept of the trait system.

- Then why every trait ever that has become baseline, became baseline? Wasn't it a slight to the concept of the trait system every time?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > > > >

> > > > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> > > >

> > > > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> > > >

> > > > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

> > >

> > > And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

> > >

> >

> > I don't need to find an alternative (and it seems no one i this thread on either side tries to find one too). I don't see base line Fast Hands as a solution. I see a far to strong Discipline tree which needs rework though.

> >

> > On the contrary, I think base line Fast Hands and the utility it brings would cause severe nerfs to warrior on many levels. Something most people are willfully ignoring here.

> >

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > You realize that other classes work without Fast Hands because they have instant casts, pets, phantasms, and burst mitigation for team mates right? Warrior doesn't need any of that, OTHER CLASSES can have it for an identity. Warrior's identity is fine as is (A class that relies on stow weapon or weapon swap fake-outs for a high skill cap, no instant cast, no pets, etc [just being an honest class with no pet or instant cast garbage])

> > >

> >

> > Every single class would benefit from Fast Hands, thiefs and revenant even more than warriors. So no, this is again wild speculation and no argument on the warriors side.

> >

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > We didn't "simply demand it" we SUGGESTED it before ANET does their own thing. And when ANET does their own thing that no one asked for? That's a lot worse.

> > >

> >

> > I have no problem with suggestions. I do have a problem with this religious zealous near fanatical defense of a suggestion without considering that focusing on other approaches would be far more productive and more likely than this change.

> >

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > Literally, you're almost tolerable but you can't think of a specific idea that would make your premise work. You would legit have to give Warrior instant cast or some stupid kitten. And you at least agreed to me that your route could be A LOT MORE EVIL, but I want to hear a "specific alternative" that isn't broken or useless because MAYBE, just MAYBE you are truly better than any of the other guys who counter-argued against it but failed.

> >

> > I agreed that any change could be far worse. I also said that changing 1 of 9 classes on a fundamental level would cause even greater issues. Look at how Mirage and its unique dodge causes problems (and it;s an elite specialization). That's the type of change you are in for balance wise. I seriously doubt Arenanet is even going to go remotely in that direction, at most with an elite specialization and even that is a very big IF.

>

> 1.) YOU CANNOT nerf discipline right now.

 

You know what is funny ... I've seen Anet nerf things that cannot be nerfed right now LOTS of times. So maybe you don't understand how they function. Maybe you shouldn't impose your own ideas of how the game works onto the people that develop it. Absolutely nothing stops Anet from nerfing anything they want, especially if people are going to argue that Discipline is SO good that it degrades the choice of other traitlines.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > 2.) Severe nerfs? Are you.. CHANGING STORIES? I THOUGHT IT WAS POWERCREEP?

> >

> > From what I understand, he's saying that making FH as a class passive would inevitably bring nerfs with that change, it's not him "changing stories", it's your inability to read and connect the facts, because you are too occupied with ridiculing him.

>

> Sure, I have already said that Reckless dodge and Bull's charge will possibly get nerfed, and that is fine. It will be realistically in a big patch anyways (along with other class nerfs), and dodge spamming while attacking has ALWAYS been stupid and not very Warrior like. I'm just saying there is a hypothetical way that ANET can do it the right way and that these "severe nerfs" can actually push more build variety.

>

> So I ask you again, what **greater evil is going to happen?**

>

> Does it give Warrior instant cast? Does it give Warrior the ability to ignore protection?

 

It's not about what greater evil is going to happen. It's about: **are you prepared if warrior sees far more nerfs than those 2?** Say into the sphere of becoming useless (which is quite often a very common theme for Arenanet). Nerf something into the ground, then eventually readdress it months later.

 

I also love how you assume your suggested changes are what's going to happen. When in reality re-balance is done on a way bigger scale and certainly not in favor of a class. This counts double when changing a core mechanic.

 

EDIT:

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> >

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> > > > >

> > > > > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> > > > >

> > > > > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

> > > >

> > > > And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I don't need to find an alternative (and it seems no one i this thread on either side tries to find one too). I don't see base line Fast Hands as a solution. I see a far to strong Discipline tree which needs rework though.

> > >

> > > On the contrary, I think base line Fast Hands and the utility it brings would cause severe nerfs to warrior on many levels. Something most people are willfully ignoring here.

> > >

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > You realize that other classes work without Fast Hands because they have instant casts, pets, phantasms, and burst mitigation for team mates right? Warrior doesn't need any of that, OTHER CLASSES can have it for an identity. Warrior's identity is fine as is (A class that relies on stow weapon or weapon swap fake-outs for a high skill cap, no instant cast, no pets, etc [just being an honest class with no pet or instant cast garbage])

> > > >

> > >

> > > Every single class would benefit from Fast Hands, thiefs and revenant even more than warriors. So no, this is again wild speculation and no argument on the warriors side.

> > >

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > We didn't "simply demand it" we SUGGESTED it before ANET does their own thing. And when ANET does their own thing that no one asked for? That's a lot worse.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I have no problem with suggestions. I do have a problem with this religious zealous near fanatical defense of a suggestion without considering that focusing on other approaches would be far more productive and more likely than this change.

> > >

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > Literally, you're almost tolerable but you can't think of a specific idea that would make your premise work. You would legit have to give Warrior instant cast or some stupid kitten. And you at least agreed to me that your route could be A LOT MORE EVIL, but I want to hear a "specific alternative" that isn't broken or useless because MAYBE, just MAYBE you are truly better than any of the other guys who counter-argued against it but failed.

> > >

> > > I agreed that any change could be far worse. I also said that changing 1 of 9 classes on a fundamental level would cause even greater issues. Look at how Mirage and its unique dodge causes problems (and it;s an elite specialization). That's the type of change you are in for balance wise. I seriously doubt Arenanet is even going to go remotely in that direction, at most with an elite specialization and even that is a very big IF.

> >

> > 1.) YOU CANNOT nerf discipline right now.

>

> You know what is funny ... I've seen Anet nerf things that cannot be nerfed right now LOTS of times. So maybe you don't understand how they function. Maybe you shouldn't impose your own ideas of how the game works onto the people that develop it.

>

>

 

Quote for truth. Almost 7 years in and I am often surprised. They do like to shake things up. :#

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > If you want constructive alternatives to build diversity, the answer is to stop thinking about how to make everything equivalent to the best or your favourite builds. This game is not designed so that there is a large pick of best builds to choose from. If you want diversity, you can have it, but you are going to settle for something that isn't ideal. That's simply how the game is designed.

> > > >

> > > > If you want fluidity, then stick with Discipline, because that's the point of Anet giving players meaningful choices with a trait system. You can't expect all builds to play like those that have Discipline; that's why Discipline is a good traitline ... it feels different than other traitlines. That's the whole kitten point.

> > >

> > > This is actually very good point, but FH baseline is a constructive alternative. We want to discuss the impact of it on builds, exact things, but you don't. But why? Because you don't find it as a constructive alternative?

> >

> > No, because it's no value as long as you haven't got good reasons to make FH baseline. You can discuss how awesome it would help builds all you want, but that's not meaningful because there are issues (my three points) that you can't address.

> >

> > Making things better isn't a reason to buff something, PERIOD. It's trivial.

>

> OK then:

>

> 1. No one has a non-trivial, sensible reason make FH baseline. The burden to show FH baseline is a needed change is on the people proposing the idea. Calling people that disagree with you ignorant, scared or whatever does not help your cause ... or keep those people from continually pointing out what is flawed with the ideas being presented for baseline FH.

> - there is nothing trivial about wanting improved non-Discipline builds, which are obviously less used and underperforming in most situations

 

No, it's not obvious and even if it was, that's not a problem that needs to be fixed because this game is designed in a way that results in optimal builds for various situations. If Discipline is TOO optimal for all builds, that's an argument for nerfing it, not spreading out its love.

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > > > >

> > > > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> > > >

> > > > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> > > >

> > > > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

> > >

> > > And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

> >

> > It's not his job to "find an alternative", the thread is about someone proposing turning FH into a class unique passive and after people disagreeing told you why it's a stupid idea, that's all there is to it. Nobody is supposed to "come up with better idea" so they can dismiss another one. That's not how it works. There's a thread with a poll and a question "what you'd change about the warrior" (or something along these lines), your complaint might pass in that thread. Nobody is obligated to come up with a "counter-idea" just because they disagreed with yours.

>

> And because you cannot find a solid counterargument, you are DOOMED to fail to convince me otherwise.

 

Oh, I already found and wrote plenty -you're just not interested in reading and understanding them. :)

 

>Also, I can argue that you project your own evil, you are borderline trying to censor people because you think people are DEMANDING things, not trying to make a potentially constructive suggestion before ANET does something catastrophic.

 

Ok, if you "CAN ARGUE THAT" then go ahead and don't stop yourself. Or is this single sentence with no quotes and arguments all you had? :disappointed:

How is this even "projecting"? How and where am I "trying to censor" anyone? What exactly are you talking about here?

And I don't "think people are DEMANDING things". You DID demand something and I told you exactly why he's not obligated to comply or why it doesn't make his arguments any less valid.

 

Just make sure you answer the above questions, because that got me -unironically- intrigued. It would be disappointing if all you had was that empty "I CAN ARGUE!" statement.

 

> So I ask again, what is your premise? Why is baseline fast hands **catastrophic?**

 

I already wrote that before, do you understand what you read? Because if you can't then I'm not sure why I'm supposed to keep repeating same thing, this thread is going in circles.

[BlackTruth.6813]

Also people, ANET WILL inevitable update and change the game. Nothing wrong about suggesting something that isn't stupidly broken OP like "instant cast" or "z-axis teleport" as they inventiably change the gam,e

 

Don't go around censoring people who advocated for something that is potentially legitimate just yet.

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > 2.) Severe nerfs? Are you.. CHANGING STORIES? I THOUGHT IT WAS POWERCREEP?

> > >

> > > From what I understand, he's saying that making FH as a class passive would inevitably bring nerfs with that change, it's not him "changing stories", it's your inability to read and connect the facts, because you are too occupied with ridiculing him.

> >

> > Sure, I have already said that Reckless dodge and Bull's charge will possibly get nerfed, and that is fine. It will be realistically in a big patch anyways (along with other class nerfs), and dodge spamming while attacking has ALWAYS been stupid and not very Warrior like. I'm just saying there is a hypothetical way that ANET can do it the right way and that these "severe nerfs" can actually push more build variety.

> >

> > So I ask you again, what **greater evil is going to happen?**

> >

> > Does it give Warrior instant cast? Does it give Warrior the ability to ignore protection?

>

> It's not about what greater evil is going to happen. It's about: **are you prepared if warrior sees far more nerfs than those 2?** Say into the sphere of becoming useless (which is quite often a very common theme for Arenanet). Nerf something into the ground, then eventually readdress it months later.

>

> I also love how you assume your suggested changes are what's going to happen. When in reality re-balance is done a way bigger scale and certainly not in favor of a class. This counts double when changing a core mechanic.

 

Yes because part of the premise is build variety as well. The current Reckless dodge, BC and Rampage are meta enforcing more than discipline in sPvP. Those will probably need a shave, and if an FH baseline patch keeps them "playable" but not useless, then THAT will be a greater good.

 

ANET CAN do something right for once, I am prepared for things like Reckless dodge, bull's charge, and rampage NERFED TO BALANCE but relative to other classes as well if that makes any sense. There is moderation that can be accomplished.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> ANET CAN do something right for once, I am prepared for things like Reckless dodge, bull's charge, and rampage NERFED TO BALANCE. There is moderation that can be accomplished.

 

 

I love how FH baseline is THE answer ... as long as all this other stuff gets nerfed too.

 

If Anet has to make ALL these kinds of changes to make FH baseline ... then seems to me that it's actually easier to just buff the non-Discipline lines after all, preserving meaningful choices in Discipline at the same time.

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> >

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> > > > >

> > > > > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> > > > >

> > > > > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

> > > >

> > > > And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I don't need to find an alternative (and it seems no one i this thread on either side tries to find one too). I don't see base line Fast Hands as a solution. I see a far to strong Discipline tree which needs rework though.

> > >

> > > On the contrary, I think base line Fast Hands and the utility it brings would cause severe nerfs to warrior on many levels. Something most people are willfully ignoring here.

> > >

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > You realize that other classes work without Fast Hands because they have instant casts, pets, phantasms, and burst mitigation for team mates right? Warrior doesn't need any of that, OTHER CLASSES can have it for an identity. Warrior's identity is fine as is (A class that relies on stow weapon or weapon swap fake-outs for a high skill cap, no instant cast, no pets, etc [just being an honest class with no pet or instant cast garbage])

> > > >

> > >

> > > Every single class would benefit from Fast Hands, thiefs and revenant even more than warriors. So no, this is again wild speculation and no argument on the warriors side.

> > >

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > We didn't "simply demand it" we SUGGESTED it before ANET does their own thing. And when ANET does their own thing that no one asked for? That's a lot worse.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I have no problem with suggestions. I do have a problem with this religious zealous near fanatical defense of a suggestion without considering that focusing on other approaches would be far more productive and more likely than this change.

> > >

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > Literally, you're almost tolerable but you can't think of a specific idea that would make your premise work. You would legit have to give Warrior instant cast or some stupid kitten. And you at least agreed to me that your route could be A LOT MORE EVIL, but I want to hear a "specific alternative" that isn't broken or useless because MAYBE, just MAYBE you are truly better than any of the other guys who counter-argued against it but failed.

> > >

> > > I agreed that any change could be far worse. I also said that changing 1 of 9 classes on a fundamental level would cause even greater issues. Look at how Mirage and its unique dodge causes problems (and it;s an elite specialization). That's the type of change you are in for balance wise. I seriously doubt Arenanet is even going to go remotely in that direction, at most with an elite specialization and even that is a very big IF.

> >

> > 1.) YOU CANNOT nerf discipline right now.

>

> You know what is funny ... I've seen Anet nerf things that cannot be nerfed right now LOTS of times. So maybe you don't understand how they function. Maybe you shouldn't impose your own ideas of how the game works onto the people that develop it. Absolutely nothing stops Anet from nerfing anything they want, especially if people are going to argue that Discipline is SO good that it degrades the choice of other traitlines.

>

>

 

There is a small chance, (maybe it's good right now after the mass layoffs) that ANET will do something right. We can mourn AFTER they do something stupid.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > ANET CAN do something right for once, I am prepared for things like Reckless dodge, bull's charge, and rampage NERFED TO BALANCE. There is moderation that can be accomplished.

>

>

> I love how FH baseline is THE answer ... as long as all this other stuff gets nerfed too.

>

> If Anet has to make ALL these kinds of changes to make FH baseline ... then seems to me that it's actually easier to just buff the non-Discipline lines after all, preserving meaningful choices in Discipline at the same time.

>

 

Okay, give me an example, lets be productive for once. How do you make Arms attractive then?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > >

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

> > > > >

> > > > > And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I don't need to find an alternative (and it seems no one i this thread on either side tries to find one too). I don't see base line Fast Hands as a solution. I see a far to strong Discipline tree which needs rework though.

> > > >

> > > > On the contrary, I think base line Fast Hands and the utility it brings would cause severe nerfs to warrior on many levels. Something most people are willfully ignoring here.

> > > >

> > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > You realize that other classes work without Fast Hands because they have instant casts, pets, phantasms, and burst mitigation for team mates right? Warrior doesn't need any of that, OTHER CLASSES can have it for an identity. Warrior's identity is fine as is (A class that relies on stow weapon or weapon swap fake-outs for a high skill cap, no instant cast, no pets, etc [just being an honest class with no pet or instant cast garbage])

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Every single class would benefit from Fast Hands, thiefs and revenant even more than warriors. So no, this is again wild speculation and no argument on the warriors side.

> > > >

> > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > We didn't "simply demand it" we SUGGESTED it before ANET does their own thing. And when ANET does their own thing that no one asked for? That's a lot worse.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I have no problem with suggestions. I do have a problem with this religious zealous near fanatical defense of a suggestion without considering that focusing on other approaches would be far more productive and more likely than this change.

> > > >

> > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > Literally, you're almost tolerable but you can't think of a specific idea that would make your premise work. You would legit have to give Warrior instant cast or some stupid kitten. And you at least agreed to me that your route could be A LOT MORE EVIL, but I want to hear a "specific alternative" that isn't broken or useless because MAYBE, just MAYBE you are truly better than any of the other guys who counter-argued against it but failed.

> > > >

> > > > I agreed that any change could be far worse. I also said that changing 1 of 9 classes on a fundamental level would cause even greater issues. Look at how Mirage and its unique dodge causes problems (and it;s an elite specialization). That's the type of change you are in for balance wise. I seriously doubt Arenanet is even going to go remotely in that direction, at most with an elite specialization and even that is a very big IF.

> > >

> > > 1.) YOU CANNOT nerf discipline right now.

> >

> > You know what is funny ... I've seen Anet nerf things that cannot be nerfed right now LOTS of times. So maybe you don't understand how they function. Maybe you shouldn't impose your own ideas of how the game works onto the people that develop it. Absolutely nothing stops Anet from nerfing anything they want, especially if people are going to argue that Discipline is SO good that it degrades the choice of other traitlines.

> >

> >

>

> There is a small chance, (maybe it's good right now after the mass layoffs) that ANET will do something right. We can mourn AFTER they do something stupid.

 

Maybe ... but don't sit there and pretend there is some rulebook they play by that adheres to your sense of what they can and can't do. Anet is definitely not going to do more work than they have to to fix a problem ... and if that problem is Discipline is too much of a go-to traitline, it's going to see nerfed, even if every player thinks it shouldn't.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> >

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> > > > >

> > > > > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> > > > >

> > > > > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

> > > >

> > > > And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I don't need to find an alternative (and it seems no one i this thread on either side tries to find one too). I don't see base line Fast Hands as a solution. I see a far to strong Discipline tree which needs rework though.

> > >

> > > On the contrary, I think base line Fast Hands and the utility it brings would cause severe nerfs to warrior on many levels. Something most people are willfully ignoring here.

> > >

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > You realize that other classes work without Fast Hands because they have instant casts, pets, phantasms, and burst mitigation for team mates right? Warrior doesn't need any of that, OTHER CLASSES can have it for an identity. Warrior's identity is fine as is (A class that relies on stow weapon or weapon swap fake-outs for a high skill cap, no instant cast, no pets, etc [just being an honest class with no pet or instant cast garbage])

> > > >

> > >

> > > Every single class would benefit from Fast Hands, thiefs and revenant even more than warriors. So no, this is again wild speculation and no argument on the warriors side.

> > >

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > We didn't "simply demand it" we SUGGESTED it before ANET does their own thing. And when ANET does their own thing that no one asked for? That's a lot worse.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I have no problem with suggestions. I do have a problem with this religious zealous near fanatical defense of a suggestion without considering that focusing on other approaches would be far more productive and more likely than this change.

> > >

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > Literally, you're almost tolerable but you can't think of a specific idea that would make your premise work. You would legit have to give Warrior instant cast or some stupid kitten. And you at least agreed to me that your route could be A LOT MORE EVIL, but I want to hear a "specific alternative" that isn't broken or useless because MAYBE, just MAYBE you are truly better than any of the other guys who counter-argued against it but failed.

> > >

> > > I agreed that any change could be far worse. I also said that changing 1 of 9 classes on a fundamental level would cause even greater issues. Look at how Mirage and its unique dodge causes problems (and it;s an elite specialization). That's the type of change you are in for balance wise. I seriously doubt Arenanet is even going to go remotely in that direction, at most with an elite specialization and even that is a very big IF.

> >

> > 1.) YOU CANNOT nerf discipline right now.

>

> You know what is funny ... I've seen Anet nerf things that cannot be nerfed right now LOTS of times. So maybe you don't understand how they function. Maybe you shouldn't impose your own ideas of how the game works onto the people that develop it. Absolutely nothing stops Anet from nerfing anything they want, especially if people are going to argue that Discipline is SO good that it degrades the choice of other traitlines.

 

But, but but...... After writing that you "need to write about specific build examples to have a valid argument", he said that "ANET CANT NERF IT!" and you're saying that... that's not a valid reason? Not even when he hand-picked single skills that he deems right to get nerfed?! But then it's almost like he uses double standards depending on who's writing?! :dizzy:

[Obtena.7952]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > ANET CAN do something right for once, I am prepared for things like Reckless dodge, bull's charge, and rampage NERFED TO BALANCE. There is moderation that can be accomplished.

> >

> >

> > I love how FH baseline is THE answer ... as long as all this other stuff gets nerfed too.

> >

> > If Anet has to make ALL these kinds of changes to make FH baseline ... then seems to me that it's actually easier to just buff the non-Discipline lines after all, preserving meaningful choices in Discipline at the same time.

> >

>

> Okay, give me an example, lets be productive for once. How do you make Arms attractive then?

 

Certainly not by giving me access to FH ... I mean, arms is condi theme ... so buff it's condi stuff. Or give more weapons condi love. I mean, what's the point of this question? if I'm choosing Arms, I could give a RATS BEHIND about getting 5 second swapping. What would I swap to? For what purpose?

 

The more general answer here is: if you want to improve a traitline, look at what that trait line does and buff THAT thing. Don't hand me effects I can't take advantage of. That's just dumb.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > ANET CAN do something right for once, I am prepared for things like Reckless dodge, bull's charge, and rampage NERFED TO BALANCE. There is moderation that can be accomplished.

> > >

> > >

> > > I love how FH baseline is THE answer ... as long as all this other stuff gets nerfed too.

> > >

> > > If Anet has to make ALL these kinds of changes to make FH baseline ... then seems to me that it's actually easier to just buff the non-Discipline lines after all, preserving meaningful choices in Discipline at the same time.

> > >

> >

> > Okay, give me an example, lets be productive for once. How do you make Arms attractive then?

>

> Certainly not by giving me access to FH ... I mean, arms is condi theme ... so buff it's condi stuff. Or give more weapons condi love. I mean, what's the point of this question? if I'm choosing Arms, I could give a RATS BEHIND about getting 5 second swapping.

 

Actually Arms was originally a crit strikes tree as well.

 

The unblockable trait already works with power builds, and the 100% burst on crit is actually nice to make Eviscerate and Gunflame "borderline" viable.

 

Making it full condition when berserker is better for that feels moot.

 

Do you HAVE a specific example? Maybe a better one. Like somewhere along the lines of making a new grandmaster minor that is ACTUALLY impactful but not broken?