At what point is a single burst too strong?

[Eurantien.4632]

Where do you hope to see the game? I like where power soulbeast is at. If I dodge things and they don't I can win. If I don't dodge things then basically everything can kill me.

 

Id much rather have the high risk play than just stalemate fights forever with tanks builds that don't even need to dodge.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > * Holo [launches photon wall above 50% heat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch_Wall "launches photon wall above 50% heat") and hits you for 12k?

> > * Holo [blunderbusses](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blunderbuss "blunderbusses") you for 5k?

> > * Holo hits [particle accelerator](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Particle_Accelerator "particle accelerator") (and I presume [static discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge_(trait_skill) "static discharge") with that as well)

> > * You don't go down, but nearly down.

> >

> > Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

> >

> > 1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.

> > 2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.

> > 3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.

> > 4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

> Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .

> Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .

> P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymore

> About stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)

 

* Which golem did you try? Hitbox size really matters for that skill. Try it against one of the npcs, not the golems. Anything over 220 range will hit less than all 3, and >300 range will only hit one.

* Armor shouldn't impact hitbox.

* Elixir U doesn't provide endurance. Did you mean something else?

* Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, has been for as long as I can remember, with the exception of condi mirage. Engineer's natural counters are warrior and necro.

* Mirage cloak should never have been 1s... it should've always been the duration of a standard dodge.

[toxic.3648]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > * Holo [launches photon wall above 50% heat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch_Wall "launches photon wall above 50% heat") and hits you for 12k?

> > > * Holo [blunderbusses](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blunderbuss "blunderbusses") you for 5k?

> > > * Holo hits [particle accelerator](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Particle_Accelerator "particle accelerator") (and I presume [static discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge_(trait_skill) "static discharge") with that as well)

> > > * You don't go down, but nearly down.

> > >

> > > Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

> > >

> > > 1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.

> > > 2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.

> > > 3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.

> > > 4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

> > Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .

> > Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .

> > P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymore

> > About stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)

>

> * Which golem did you try? Hitbox size really matters for that skill. Try it against one of the npcs, not the golems. Anything over 220 range will hit less than all 3, and >300 range will only hit one.

> * Armor shouldn't impact hitbox.

> * Elixir U doesn't provide endurance. Did you mean something else?

> * Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, has been for as long as I can remember, with the exception of condi mirage. Engineer's natural counters are warrior and necro.

> * Mirage cloak should never have been 1s... it should've always been the duration of a standard dodge.

 

elixir u does give endurance. its a bug there have been there for as long as i know. use invigorating speed in alchemy traitline and elixir u gives u 25 endurance for popping it

[Odik.4587]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > * Holo [launches photon wall above 50% heat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch_Wall "launches photon wall above 50% heat") and hits you for 12k?

> > > * Holo [blunderbusses](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blunderbuss "blunderbusses") you for 5k?

> > > * Holo hits [particle accelerator](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Particle_Accelerator "particle accelerator") (and I presume [static discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge_(trait_skill) "static discharge") with that as well)

> > > * You don't go down, but nearly down.

> > >

> > > Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

> > >

> > > 1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.

> > > 2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.

> > > 3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.

> > > 4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

> > Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .

> > Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .

> > P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymore

> > About stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)

>

> * Which golem did you try? Hitbox size really matters for that skill. Try it against one of the npcs, not the golems. Anything over 220 range will hit less than all 3, and >300 range will only hit one.

> * Armor shouldn't impact hitbox.

> * Elixir U doesn't provide endurance. Did you mean something else?

> * Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, has been for as long as I can remember, with the exception of condi mirage. Engineer's natural counters are warrior and necro.

> * Mirage cloak should never have been 1s... it should've always been the duration of a standard dodge.

What I mean is not armor affect hitbox of the wall, damage depends on armor(which is obvious?Light armor take way more damage than others) . Self stacking 25 might is super known problem . I dont see how defensive channeling block (you can do whatever during it) on 35s cd can blow people up for that much damage is fine. Decent range idk what you mean

Dont need to lie that elixir U doesnt give endurance , every single one know it does with invigorating speed, you ignored that statement each time I brought it up

Engineer never been counter to mesmer . Its always been either way , Mesmer always countered engineers. You never even played before hot ? Mesmer always farmed engineers without a problem doesnt matter was it condi or power (And I dont remember having issues with scrappers during hot either) So thats false statement of yours. The only time when terrible holosmiths farmed mesmer been time with mine trail trait (Zan destroyed everyone without weapon on stream).

You arent Anet dev to make that claim . Regardless of it should have or not in your subjective opinion. Fact that its been 1 second for over a year and had same duration as ambush cast time, since me (and many other mesmers) got used to that, we memorized that our mirage cloak ends when ambush is nearly over, not at ~50% (due to connection and server delay) which for me ruined entire elite spec, not 0.75s evade itself

By the way I had distortion up(blink too) but it happened under a second so I couldnt react properly , not because I had nothing . Holo has too much of everything: high damage,burst,mobility,boons,sustain,cc . It is time to use ENGI MAIN DETECTED? Anyway its went too far and became offtop/derail. If you want we can talk about it via PM. (But you are biased... not sure if we will have honest/civil discussion)

[Mathias.9657]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> 25k damage 4 sec cooldown non-projectile that also buffs your pet? BETTER NERF MIRAGE AM I RIGHT ANET XD

>

> this has been in the game for awhile but they nerfed non-meta classes instead

 

I love mesmer tears XD

[Odik.4587]

> @"Mathias.9657" said:

> > @"incisorr.9502" said:

> > 25k damage 4 sec cooldown non-projectile that also buffs your pet? BETTER NERF MIRAGE AM I RIGHT ANET XD

> >

> > this has been in the game for awhile but they nerfed non-meta classes instead

>

> I love mesmer tears XD

It has nothing to do with 'mesmer' players. Its just flanby...

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"Mathias.9657" said:

> > @"incisorr.9502" said:

> > 25k damage 4 sec cooldown non-projectile that also buffs your pet? BETTER NERF MIRAGE AM I RIGHT ANET XD

> >

> > this has been in the game for awhile but they nerfed non-meta classes instead

>

> I love mesmer tears XD

 

Shaddup meanie! At least we're still Anet's favorite child! Wait...

[kodesh.2851]

 

> I take parasitic contagion over lingering curses. I've swapped between them a lot, but i find the duration increase with lingering curses is largely irrelevant, the AoE on devouring darkness to be largely irrelevant and inconsistant, and the heal to be more valuable than 200 condition damage. Between the vampiric effects from Blood Magic and contagion, i can actually stand a chance against a scrapper and sustain over multiple rotations. You can kill scrappers with codi, but it is really hard.

 

Take weakening shroud over either. The auto boon conversion + weakness is a lifesaver. Not that it would have seved you from his burst, and I agree soulbeast damage is way overtuned.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"toxic.3648" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > * Holo [launches photon wall above 50% heat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch_Wall "launches photon wall above 50% heat") and hits you for 12k?

> > > > * Holo [blunderbusses](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blunderbuss "blunderbusses") you for 5k?

> > > > * Holo hits [particle accelerator](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Particle_Accelerator "particle accelerator") (and I presume [static discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge_(trait_skill) "static discharge") with that as well)

> > > > * You don't go down, but nearly down.

> > > >

> > > > Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

> > > >

> > > > 1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.

> > > > 2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.

> > > > 3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.

> > > > 4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

> > > Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .

> > > Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .

> > > P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymore

> > > About stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)

> >

> > * Which golem did you try? Hitbox size really matters for that skill. Try it against one of the npcs, not the golems. Anything over 220 range will hit less than all 3, and >300 range will only hit one.

> > * Armor shouldn't impact hitbox.

> > * Elixir U doesn't provide endurance. Did you mean something else?

> > * Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, has been for as long as I can remember, with the exception of condi mirage. Engineer's natural counters are warrior and necro.

> > * Mirage cloak should never have been 1s... it should've always been the duration of a standard dodge.

>

> elixir u does give endurance. its a bug there have been there for as long as i know. use invigorating speed in alchemy traitline and elixir u gives u 25 endurance for popping it

 

Ok -- I tested and can confirm that too. By itself, Elixir U doesn't do that, nor does invigorating speed, which is peculiar. Must be some kind of legacy code.

 

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > * Holo [launches photon wall above 50% heat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch_Wall "launches photon wall above 50% heat") and hits you for 12k?

> > > > * Holo [blunderbusses](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blunderbuss "blunderbusses") you for 5k?

> > > > * Holo hits [particle accelerator](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Particle_Accelerator "particle accelerator") (and I presume [static discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge_(trait_skill) "static discharge") with that as well)

> > > > * You don't go down, but nearly down.

> > > >

> > > > Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

> > > >

> > > > 1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.

> > > > 2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.

> > > > 3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.

> > > > 4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

> > > Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .

> > > Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .

> > > P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymore

> > > About stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)

> >

> > * Which golem did you try? Hitbox size really matters for that skill. Try it against one of the npcs, not the golems. Anything over 220 range will hit less than all 3, and >300 range will only hit one.

> > * Armor shouldn't impact hitbox.

> > * Elixir U doesn't provide endurance. Did you mean something else?

> > * Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, has been for as long as I can remember, with the exception of condi mirage. Engineer's natural counters are warrior and necro.

> > * Mirage cloak should never have been 1s... it should've always been the duration of a standard dodge.

> What I mean is not armor affect hitbox of the wall, damage depends on armor(which is obvious?Light armor take way more damage than others) . Self stacking 25 might is super known problem . I dont see how defensive channeling block (you can do whatever during it) on 35s cd can blow people up for that much damage is fine. Decent range idk what you mean

> Dont need to lie that elixir U doesnt give endurance , every single one know it does with invigorating speed, you ignored that statement each time I brought it up

> Engineer never been counter to mesmer . Its always been either way , Mesmer always countered engineers. You never even played before hot ? Mesmer always farmed engineers without a problem doesnt matter was it condi or power (And I dont remember having issues with scrappers during hot either) So thats false statement of yours. The only time when terrible holosmiths farmed mesmer been time with mine trail trait (Zan destroyed everyone without weapon on stream).

> You arent Anet dev to make that claim . Regardless of it should have or not in your subjective opinion. Fact that its been 1 second for over a year and had same duration as ambush cast time, since me (and many other mesmers) got used to that, we memorized that our mirage cloak ends when ambush is nearly over, not at ~50% (due to connection and server delay) which for me ruined entire elite spec, not 0.75s evade itself

> By the way I had distortion up(blink too) but it happened under a second so I couldnt react properly , not because I had nothing . Holo has too much of everything: high damage,burst,mobility,boons,sustain,cc . It is time to use ENGI MAIN DETECTED? Anyway its went too far and became offtop/derail. If you want we can talk about it via PM. (But you are biased... not sure if we will have honest/civil discussion)

 

* Generally engineer can't self-stack 25 might without some serious alterations to most builds that would render them way less viable. Even the [most offensive meta build](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Elixir_Rifle "most offensive meta build") can't do that.

* It's not a "channeled" block. It's an activated block, and it only works in one direction. You make a valid point with the cooldown timer on it (especially considering DH's block is on a 60s cooldown), but that's about the only point I see as valid.

* I played plenty before HoT. Mesmers were never a problem for me back then because they had a huge cleansing problem, so I could generally burst burns on them and then wander off. During HoT, scrapper was just a tank, so I never really could kill anyone, but very few could kill me either.

* I never said it was intended to be 3/4 of a second. I said it it should have always been the same length as a standard dodge. The fact you are complaining about no longer having a special passive advantage indicates it was OP in the first place.

* The situation you described is extremely unlikely and very hard to reproduce, unlike the soulbeast spike and chrono shatter spike which are consistently reproducible. Complaints about holo itself may or may not be valid, but the situation you described is way outside the norm and I was trying to point that out.

* And if we wanted to talk about civility -- You accused me of lying when I was not. I didn't realize that Elixir U + Invigorating speed interaction was the source of the problem. You said it was only Elixir U, which is wrong.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"toxic.3648" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > * Holo [launches photon wall above 50% heat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch_Wall "launches photon wall above 50% heat") and hits you for 12k?

> > > > > * Holo [blunderbusses](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blunderbuss "blunderbusses") you for 5k?

> > > > > * Holo hits [particle accelerator](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Particle_Accelerator "particle accelerator") (and I presume [static discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge_(trait_skill) "static discharge") with that as well)

> > > > > * You don't go down, but nearly down.

> > > > >

> > > > > Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.

> > > > > 2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.

> > > > > 3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.

> > > > > 4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

> > > > Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .

> > > > Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .

> > > > P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymore

> > > > About stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)

> > >

> > > * Which golem did you try? Hitbox size really matters for that skill. Try it against one of the npcs, not the golems. Anything over 220 range will hit less than all 3, and >300 range will only hit one.

> > > * Armor shouldn't impact hitbox.

> > > * Elixir U doesn't provide endurance. Did you mean something else?

> > > * Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, has been for as long as I can remember, with the exception of condi mirage. Engineer's natural counters are warrior and necro.

> > > * Mirage cloak should never have been 1s... it should've always been the duration of a standard dodge.

> >

> > elixir u does give endurance. its a bug there have been there for as long as i know. use invigorating speed in alchemy traitline and elixir u gives u 25 endurance for popping it

>

> Ok -- I tested and can confirm that too. By itself, Elixir U doesn't do that, nor does invigorating speed, which is peculiar. Must be some kind of legacy code.

>

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > * Holo [launches photon wall above 50% heat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch_Wall "launches photon wall above 50% heat") and hits you for 12k?

> > > > > * Holo [blunderbusses](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blunderbuss "blunderbusses") you for 5k?

> > > > > * Holo hits [particle accelerator](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Particle_Accelerator "particle accelerator") (and I presume [static discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge_(trait_skill) "static discharge") with that as well)

> > > > > * You don't go down, but nearly down.

> > > > >

> > > > > Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.

> > > > > 2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.

> > > > > 3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.

> > > > > 4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

> > > > Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .

> > > > Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .

> > > > P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymore

> > > > About stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)

> > >

> > > * Which golem did you try? Hitbox size really matters for that skill. Try it against one of the npcs, not the golems. Anything over 220 range will hit less than all 3, and >300 range will only hit one.

> > > * Armor shouldn't impact hitbox.

> > > * Elixir U doesn't provide endurance. Did you mean something else?

> > > * Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, has been for as long as I can remember, with the exception of condi mirage. Engineer's natural counters are warrior and necro.

> > > * Mirage cloak should never have been 1s... it should've always been the duration of a standard dodge.

> > What I mean is not armor affect hitbox of the wall, damage depends on armor(which is obvious?Light armor take way more damage than others) . Self stacking 25 might is super known problem . I dont see how defensive channeling block (you can do whatever during it) on 35s cd can blow people up for that much damage is fine. Decent range idk what you mean

> > Dont need to lie that elixir U doesnt give endurance , every single one know it does with invigorating speed, you ignored that statement each time I brought it up

> > Engineer never been counter to mesmer . Its always been either way , Mesmer always countered engineers. You never even played before hot ? Mesmer always farmed engineers without a problem doesnt matter was it condi or power (And I dont remember having issues with scrappers during hot either) So thats false statement of yours. The only time when terrible holosmiths farmed mesmer been time with mine trail trait (Zan destroyed everyone without weapon on stream).

> > You arent Anet dev to make that claim . Regardless of it should have or not in your subjective opinion. Fact that its been 1 second for over a year and had same duration as ambush cast time, since me (and many other mesmers) got used to that, we memorized that our mirage cloak ends when ambush is nearly over, not at ~50% (due to connection and server delay) which for me ruined entire elite spec, not 0.75s evade itself

> > By the way I had distortion up(blink too) but it happened under a second so I couldnt react properly , not because I had nothing . Holo has too much of everything: high damage,burst,mobility,boons,sustain,cc . It is time to use ENGI MAIN DETECTED? Anyway its went too far and became offtop/derail. If you want we can talk about it via PM. (But you are biased... not sure if we will have honest/civil discussion)

>

> * Generally engineer can't self-stack 25 might without some serious alterations to most builds that would render them way less viable. Even the [most offensive meta build](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Elixir_Rifle "most offensive meta build") can't do that.

Every single engineer I fought have perma 25 and 5-6 other boons .Probably they are doing the impossible and probably hacking the game itself ! /s

> * It's not a "channeled" block. It's an activated block, and it only works in one direction. You make a valid point with the cooldown timer on it (especially considering DH's block is on a 60s cooldown), but that's about the only point I see as valid.

> * I played plenty before HoT. Mesmers were never a problem for me back then because they had a huge cleansing problem, so I could generally burst burns on them and then wander off. During HoT, scrapper was just a tank, so I never really could kill anyone, but very few could kill me either.

ROFL , just ROFL. Every top engineer and top mesmers knew that mesmer left not a single change for any engineer and farmed them regardless of their conditions , poor engineer couldnt do anything because mesmer killed them close to instant . Back then we had 1x1 server and condi engineer never had a chance against decent mesmer but hey since you are so convienced what can I do ,all top players quit long ago

> * I never said it was intended to be 3/4 of a second. I said it it should have always been the same length as a standard dodge. The fact you are complaining about no longer having a special passive advantage indicates it was OP in the first place.

Can you read? Like at all ? Is that hard to see my argument about it ,just in case you are completely blind I tell you once again in caps : AMBUSH CAST TIME MUST BE EQUAL TO MC SINCE ITS BEEN IN THAT WAY SINCE RELEASE (and we got used to this evade timing when ambush almost over) and no VISUAL INDICATION ? Or its hard to understand ? My English might be bad but only you struggle to read/understand it ,makes me wonder why ? How the hell you can tell ACTIVE use of my EVADE is a PASSIVE advantage? Are you ok there?

> * The situation you described is extremely unlikely and very hard to reproduce, unlike the soulbeast spike and chrono shatter spike which are consistently reproducible. Complaints about holo itself may or may not be valid, but the situation you described is way outside the norm and I was trying to point that out.

Try doing after some CC if you really want to land it?

> * And if we wanted to talk about civility -- You accused me of lying when I was not. I didn't realize that Elixir U + Invigorating speed interaction was the source of the problem. You said it was only Elixir U, which is wrong.

Lol what , you admit that bug exist and gives unintended endrance and right after tell me i'm wrong ... wat

I remember I told you already back then (you were like: elixir gives endurance?what?) and I even replied and described that, I think Lincolnbeard also did it after but apparently you ignored me/us

>Complaints about holo itself may or may not be valid

Cant be a better showcase of your bias , I'm really done with you, have a nice day.

[toxic.3648]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"toxic.3648" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > * Holo [launches photon wall above 50% heat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch_Wall "launches photon wall above 50% heat") and hits you for 12k?

> > > > > * Holo [blunderbusses](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blunderbuss "blunderbusses") you for 5k?

> > > > > * Holo hits [particle accelerator](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Particle_Accelerator "particle accelerator") (and I presume [static discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge_(trait_skill) "static discharge") with that as well)

> > > > > * You don't go down, but nearly down.

> > > > >

> > > > > Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.

> > > > > 2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.

> > > > > 3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.

> > > > > 4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

> > > > Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .

> > > > Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .

> > > > P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymore

> > > > About stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)

> > >

> > > * Which golem did you try? Hitbox size really matters for that skill. Try it against one of the npcs, not the golems. Anything over 220 range will hit less than all 3, and >300 range will only hit one.

> > > * Armor shouldn't impact hitbox.

> > > * Elixir U doesn't provide endurance. Did you mean something else?

> > > * Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, has been for as long as I can remember, with the exception of condi mirage. Engineer's natural counters are warrior and necro.

> > > * Mirage cloak should never have been 1s... it should've always been the duration of a standard dodge.

> >

> > elixir u does give endurance. its a bug there have been there for as long as i know. use invigorating speed in alchemy traitline and elixir u gives u 25 endurance for popping it

>

> Ok -- I tested and can confirm that too. By itself, Elixir U doesn't do that, nor does invigorating speed, which is peculiar. Must be some kind of legacy code.

>

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > * Holo [launches photon wall above 50% heat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch_Wall "launches photon wall above 50% heat") and hits you for 12k?

> > > > > * Holo [blunderbusses](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blunderbuss "blunderbusses") you for 5k?

> > > > > * Holo hits [particle accelerator](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Particle_Accelerator "particle accelerator") (and I presume [static discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge_(trait_skill) "static discharge") with that as well)

> > > > > * You don't go down, but nearly down.

> > > > >

> > > > > Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.

> > > > > 2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.

> > > > > 3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.

> > > > > 4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

> > > > Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .

> > > > Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .

> > > > P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymore

> > > > About stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)

> > >

> > > * Which golem did you try? Hitbox size really matters for that skill. Try it against one of the npcs, not the golems. Anything over 220 range will hit less than all 3, and >300 range will only hit one.

> > > * Armor shouldn't impact hitbox.

> > > * Elixir U doesn't provide endurance. Did you mean something else?

> > > * Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, has been for as long as I can remember, with the exception of condi mirage. Engineer's natural counters are warrior and necro.

> > > * Mirage cloak should never have been 1s... it should've always been the duration of a standard dodge.

> > What I mean is not armor affect hitbox of the wall, damage depends on armor(which is obvious?Light armor take way more damage than others) . Self stacking 25 might is super known problem . I dont see how defensive channeling block (you can do whatever during it) on 35s cd can blow people up for that much damage is fine. Decent range idk what you mean

> > Dont need to lie that elixir U doesnt give endurance , every single one know it does with invigorating speed, you ignored that statement each time I brought it up

> > Engineer never been counter to mesmer . Its always been either way , Mesmer always countered engineers. You never even played before hot ? Mesmer always farmed engineers without a problem doesnt matter was it condi or power (And I dont remember having issues with scrappers during hot either) So thats false statement of yours. The only time when terrible holosmiths farmed mesmer been time with mine trail trait (Zan destroyed everyone without weapon on stream).

> > You arent Anet dev to make that claim . Regardless of it should have or not in your subjective opinion. Fact that its been 1 second for over a year and had same duration as ambush cast time, since me (and many other mesmers) got used to that, we memorized that our mirage cloak ends when ambush is nearly over, not at ~50% (due to connection and server delay) which for me ruined entire elite spec, not 0.75s evade itself

> > By the way I had distortion up(blink too) but it happened under a second so I couldnt react properly , not because I had nothing . Holo has too much of everything: high damage,burst,mobility,boons,sustain,cc . It is time to use ENGI MAIN DETECTED? Anyway its went too far and became offtop/derail. If you want we can talk about it via PM. (But you are biased... not sure if we will have honest/civil discussion)

>

> * Generally engineer can't self-stack 25 might without some serious alterations to most builds that would render them way less viable. Even the [most offensive meta build](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Elixir_Rifle "most offensive meta build") can't do that.

> * It's not a "channeled" block. It's an activated block, and it only works in one direction. You make a valid point with the cooldown timer on it (especially considering DH's block is on a 60s cooldown), but that's about the only point I see as valid.

> * I played plenty before HoT. Mesmers were never a problem for me back then because they had a huge cleansing problem, so I could generally burst burns on them and then wander off. During HoT, scrapper was just a tank, so I never really could kill anyone, but very few could kill me either.

> * I never said it was intended to be 3/4 of a second. I said it it should have always been the same length as a standard dodge. The fact you are complaining about no longer having a special passive advantage indicates it was OP in the first place.

> * The situation you described is extremely unlikely and very hard to reproduce, unlike the soulbeast spike and chrono shatter spike which are consistently reproducible. Complaints about holo itself may or may not be valid, but the situation you described is way outside the norm and I was trying to point that out.

> * And if we wanted to talk about civility -- You accused me of lying when I was not. I didn't realize that Elixir U + Invigorating speed interaction was the source of the problem. You said it was only Elixir U, which is wrong.

 

sry just giving my 2 cents since it seems u dont think holo is broken atm. last balance patch nerfed alot of things. holo wasnt one of them , sure the 2 sec stab cut did happen but land both holo 3 waves and u are still sitting at near perma stab in photon forge. only classes that were left kinda in the same state was holo and soulbeast. yet scrapper got overbuffed in tankyness so everyone is complaining about that instead. why anyone would play scrapper when its a glorified training golem with 0 dmg and not go holo with godlike sustain and aoe dmg / cc for teamfights instead is beyond me.

 

the 25 stacks of might is probably comming from conversions since both torment and weakness convert to 3 stacks of might for 10 sec + the passive elixir conversion and holo's naturally output of 12-15 stacks of might when running elixir build. 25 stacks can be achieved through fighting when managing heat well

 

photon wall is also a loaded skill imo, sure it can be hard to land but all u need to do is time it.ive been able to land it consistently in close combat by using holo leap + launch photon wall when i needed it to end a fight quickly. ez 9k dmg if all crits

 

the fact that holo can be tanky with demo amulet. have 10k+ healing every 20 sec + the passive heals from boonstacking, regen and heat therapy holo passive sustain is broken for what it does when u see the dmg it puts out without having to sacrifice dmg for healing.

 

not to mention a single cc photon forge burst rotation with static discharge is enough to kill mostly anything not running a real bunker build

 

granted patient warriors and necros can still kill a holo easely , soulbeast is more of a stalemate like scrapper but rest of the professions feels weak compared to holo now.

just some observations from a holo main . actually began playing core guard recently since holo feels faceroll af atm xD

 

 

 

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"toxic.3648" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > * Holo [launches photon wall above 50% heat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch_Wall "launches photon wall above 50% heat") and hits you for 12k?

> > > > > > * Holo [blunderbusses](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blunderbuss "blunderbusses") you for 5k?

> > > > > > * Holo hits [particle accelerator](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Particle_Accelerator "particle accelerator") (and I presume [static discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge_(trait_skill) "static discharge") with that as well)

> > > > > > * You don't go down, but nearly down.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.

> > > > > > 2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.

> > > > > > 3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.

> > > > > > 4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

> > > > > Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .

> > > > > Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .

> > > > > P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymore

> > > > > About stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)

> > > >

> > > > * Which golem did you try? Hitbox size really matters for that skill. Try it against one of the npcs, not the golems. Anything over 220 range will hit less than all 3, and >300 range will only hit one.

> > > > * Armor shouldn't impact hitbox.

> > > > * Elixir U doesn't provide endurance. Did you mean something else?

> > > > * Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, has been for as long as I can remember, with the exception of condi mirage. Engineer's natural counters are warrior and necro.

> > > > * Mirage cloak should never have been 1s... it should've always been the duration of a standard dodge.

> > >

> > > elixir u does give endurance. its a bug there have been there for as long as i know. use invigorating speed in alchemy traitline and elixir u gives u 25 endurance for popping it

> >

> > Ok -- I tested and can confirm that too. By itself, Elixir U doesn't do that, nor does invigorating speed, which is peculiar. Must be some kind of legacy code.

> >

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > * Holo [launches photon wall above 50% heat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch_Wall "launches photon wall above 50% heat") and hits you for 12k?

> > > > > > * Holo [blunderbusses](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blunderbuss "blunderbusses") you for 5k?

> > > > > > * Holo hits [particle accelerator](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Particle_Accelerator "particle accelerator") (and I presume [static discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge_(trait_skill) "static discharge") with that as well)

> > > > > > * You don't go down, but nearly down.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.

> > > > > > 2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.

> > > > > > 3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.

> > > > > > 4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

> > > > > Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .

> > > > > Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .

> > > > > P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymore

> > > > > About stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)

> > > >

> > > > * Which golem did you try? Hitbox size really matters for that skill. Try it against one of the npcs, not the golems. Anything over 220 range will hit less than all 3, and >300 range will only hit one.

> > > > * Armor shouldn't impact hitbox.

> > > > * Elixir U doesn't provide endurance. Did you mean something else?

> > > > * Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, has been for as long as I can remember, with the exception of condi mirage. Engineer's natural counters are warrior and necro.

> > > > * Mirage cloak should never have been 1s... it should've always been the duration of a standard dodge.

> > > What I mean is not armor affect hitbox of the wall, damage depends on armor(which is obvious?Light armor take way more damage than others) . Self stacking 25 might is super known problem . I dont see how defensive channeling block (you can do whatever during it) on 35s cd can blow people up for that much damage is fine. Decent range idk what you mean

> > > Dont need to lie that elixir U doesnt give endurance , every single one know it does with invigorating speed, you ignored that statement each time I brought it up

> > > Engineer never been counter to mesmer . Its always been either way , Mesmer always countered engineers. You never even played before hot ? Mesmer always farmed engineers without a problem doesnt matter was it condi or power (And I dont remember having issues with scrappers during hot either) So thats false statement of yours. The only time when terrible holosmiths farmed mesmer been time with mine trail trait (Zan destroyed everyone without weapon on stream).

> > > You arent Anet dev to make that claim . Regardless of it should have or not in your subjective opinion. Fact that its been 1 second for over a year and had same duration as ambush cast time, since me (and many other mesmers) got used to that, we memorized that our mirage cloak ends when ambush is nearly over, not at ~50% (due to connection and server delay) which for me ruined entire elite spec, not 0.75s evade itself

> > > By the way I had distortion up(blink too) but it happened under a second so I couldnt react properly , not because I had nothing . Holo has too much of everything: high damage,burst,mobility,boons,sustain,cc . It is time to use ENGI MAIN DETECTED? Anyway its went too far and became offtop/derail. If you want we can talk about it via PM. (But you are biased... not sure if we will have honest/civil discussion)

> >

> > * Generally engineer can't self-stack 25 might without some serious alterations to most builds that would render them way less viable. Even the [most offensive meta build](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Elixir_Rifle "most offensive meta build") can't do that.

> Every single engineer I fought have perma 25 and 5-6 other boons .Probably they are doing the impossible and probably hacking the game itself ! /s

 

Then you're definitely exaggerating. Maintaining 25 might is not something that can easily done on any engineer build without speccing entirely for it like a Juggernaut Flamethrower w/ scrapper. Or you're not accounting for nearby teammates who may be buffing the holo.

 

> > * I never said it was intended to be 3/4 of a second. I said it it should have always been the same length as a standard dodge. The fact you are complaining about no longer having a special passive advantage indicates it was OP in the first place.

> Can you read? Like at all ? Is that hard to see my argument about it ,just in case you are completely blind I tell you once again in caps : AMBUSH CAST TIME MUST BE EQUAL TO MC SINCE ITS BEEN IN THAT WAY SINCE RELEASE (and we got used to this evade timing when ambush almost over) and no VISUAL INDICATION ? Or its hard to understand ? My English might be bad but only you struggle to read/understand it ,makes me wonder why ? How the hell you can tell ACTIVE use of my EVADE is a PASSIVE advantage? Are you ok there?

 

1. So you want your ambush time to be lowered to 3/4 of a sec? Ok by me.

2. Yes, it is a passive advantage. The way mirage cloak works is already powerful -- allowing you to keep casting and performing actions whilst simultaneously dodging. It also buffs many of your skills. Then to throw in an extra 1/4s to the dodge is a big deal in any competitive scenario. And what do you need do to get this benefit? All you need is to have mirage spec traitline. No investment, no trait choice, you just have it by choosing to be mirage.

 

> > * The situation you described is extremely unlikely and very hard to reproduce, unlike the soulbeast spike and chrono shatter spike which are consistently reproducible. Complaints about holo itself may or may not be valid, but the situation you described is way outside the norm and I was trying to point that out.

> Try doing after some CC if you really want to land it?

 

And you accuse me of being unable to read. I said it's not an impossible scenario, but it's an unlikely one that's difficult to reproduce on any consistent basis. What you're described is a much more dangerous, much less reliable chrono shatter at melee range, without stealth, relying on crits. Impossible? No. Unlikely? Yes. Getting killed by such a combo would indeed suck, but it's a rarity, not commonplace.

 

Saying that the particular combo is OP is like saying [Magnet](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnet "Magnet") is OP because it sometimes randomly pulls people so high into the air they fall to their death. And yes, that is a real thing that has happened. I've done it once. But I can't reproduce the effect with any consistency.

 

> > * And if we wanted to talk about civility -- You accused me of lying when I was not. I didn't realize that Elixir U + Invigorating speed interaction was the source of the problem. You said it was only Elixir U, which is wrong.

> Lol what , you admit that bug exist and gives unintended endrance and right after tell me i'm wrong ... wat

> I remember I told you already back then (you were like: elixir gives endurance?what?) and I even replied and described that, I think Lincolnbeard also did it after but apparently you ignored me/us

 

Since I'm the one who "can't read", **Elixir U by itself cannot grant 25 endurance**. It takes the combination of Elixir U and a trait (Invigorating Speed) to get that effect. And in that case, yes, that is a bug that should be fixed. But inaccuracies help no one, so thanks.

 

> >Complaints about holo itself may or may not be valid

> Cant be a better showcase of your bias , I'm really done with you, have a nice day.

 

How is that being biased? This whole thread is about oneshot builds -- Holo generally does not have oneshot builds, and the scenario you described is unlikely to be pulled off with any consistency. We're talking about builds primarily designed to one-shot, not builds that might have some weird quirk where it may be possible under a unique set of circumstances to one shot.

 

> @"toxic.3648" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"toxic.3648" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > * Holo [launches photon wall above 50% heat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch_Wall "launches photon wall above 50% heat") and hits you for 12k?

> > > > > > * Holo [blunderbusses](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blunderbuss "blunderbusses") you for 5k?

> > > > > > * Holo hits [particle accelerator](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Particle_Accelerator "particle accelerator") (and I presume [static discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge_(trait_skill) "static discharge") with that as well)

> > > > > > * You don't go down, but nearly down.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.

> > > > > > 2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.

> > > > > > 3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.

> > > > > > 4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

> > > > > Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .

> > > > > Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .

> > > > > P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymore

> > > > > About stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)

> > > >

> > > > * Which golem did you try? Hitbox size really matters for that skill. Try it against one of the npcs, not the golems. Anything over 220 range will hit less than all 3, and >300 range will only hit one.

> > > > * Armor shouldn't impact hitbox.

> > > > * Elixir U doesn't provide endurance. Did you mean something else?

> > > > * Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, has been for as long as I can remember, with the exception of condi mirage. Engineer's natural counters are warrior and necro.

> > > > * Mirage cloak should never have been 1s... it should've always been the duration of a standard dodge.

> > >

> > > elixir u does give endurance. its a bug there have been there for as long as i know. use invigorating speed in alchemy traitline and elixir u gives u 25 endurance for popping it

> >

> > Ok -- I tested and can confirm that too. By itself, Elixir U doesn't do that, nor does invigorating speed, which is peculiar. Must be some kind of legacy code.

> >

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > * Holo [launches photon wall above 50% heat](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch_Wall "launches photon wall above 50% heat") and hits you for 12k?

> > > > > > * Holo [blunderbusses](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blunderbuss "blunderbusses") you for 5k?

> > > > > > * Holo hits [particle accelerator](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Particle_Accelerator "particle accelerator") (and I presume [static discharge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Discharge_(trait_skill) "static discharge") with that as well)

> > > > > > * You don't go down, but nearly down.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Did I get that right? So a few problems I see with your complaint:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. Even if you eat all 3 walls (which requires you to be almost completely point blank), I think the max damage I've seen is 8-10k. And that's assuming all 3 crit.

> > > > > > 2. You were at point blank, eating maximum damage, with no evades or other defenses ready. If you were even the slightest bit away from point blank, it's likely only one of the walls would've hit you.

> > > > > > 3. Blunderbuss crits for 5k, so you got hit by a series of 5 or 6 powerful crits in a row. Very few classes can eat that many crits and survive if they aren't a tank build -- but this also takes quite a bit of luck to get in PvP.

> > > > > > 4. In short: This engineer got really lucky with 5 or 6 crits in a row and quickness lined up, you were at point blank with no defenses available. Yeah, I'm not surprised he might've 100-5'ed or 100-0'ed you. That sounds like a situation you would lose against most classes specced for damage, but that's not unique to holo either. I've seen warriors and thieves pull the same thing.

> > > > > Also having 1800 armor makes wonders when you eat something (being close to each other is pretty common if you fight on point or in close quarters because being melee? Range is quiet high to land all 3,I tried myself and i didnt hug golem to land it all) .

> > > > > Not even single other class in the game is more annoying than holo for me (Why quickness elixir still gives 25 energy? Reported it years ago many times) and oneshot classes once miss some key skills and they are dead .But holo feels like a zerk class with bunker alike sustain and passive procs . So for me its most unfun class to fight .

> > > > > P.S eating damage is extremely easy once they made MC 0.75 but your ambush is 1s so you believe you still has your MC when realistically not anymore

> > > > > About stunlock - not everyone have access to stability or pack tons of it . (true its not as cancerous as 1hit from stealth)

> > > >

> > > > * Which golem did you try? Hitbox size really matters for that skill. Try it against one of the npcs, not the golems. Anything over 220 range will hit less than all 3, and >300 range will only hit one.

> > > > * Armor shouldn't impact hitbox.

> > > > * Elixir U doesn't provide endurance. Did you mean something else?

> > > > * Engineer is a natural counter to mesmer, has been for as long as I can remember, with the exception of condi mirage. Engineer's natural counters are warrior and necro.

> > > > * Mirage cloak should never have been 1s... it should've always been the duration of a standard dodge.

> > > What I mean is not armor affect hitbox of the wall, damage depends on armor(which is obvious?Light armor take way more damage than others) . Self stacking 25 might is super known problem . I dont see how defensive channeling block (you can do whatever during it) on 35s cd can blow people up for that much damage is fine. Decent range idk what you mean

> > > Dont need to lie that elixir U doesnt give endurance , every single one know it does with invigorating speed, you ignored that statement each time I brought it up

> > > Engineer never been counter to mesmer . Its always been either way , Mesmer always countered engineers. You never even played before hot ? Mesmer always farmed engineers without a problem doesnt matter was it condi or power (And I dont remember having issues with scrappers during hot either) So thats false statement of yours. The only time when terrible holosmiths farmed mesmer been time with mine trail trait (Zan destroyed everyone without weapon on stream).

> > > You arent Anet dev to make that claim . Regardless of it should have or not in your subjective opinion. Fact that its been 1 second for over a year and had same duration as ambush cast time, since me (and many other mesmers) got used to that, we memorized that our mirage cloak ends when ambush is nearly over, not at ~50% (due to connection and server delay) which for me ruined entire elite spec, not 0.75s evade itself

> > > By the way I had distortion up(blink too) but it happened under a second so I couldnt react properly , not because I had nothing . Holo has too much of everything: high damage,burst,mobility,boons,sustain,cc . It is time to use ENGI MAIN DETECTED? Anyway its went too far and became offtop/derail. If you want we can talk about it via PM. (But you are biased... not sure if we will have honest/civil discussion)

> >

> > * Generally engineer can't self-stack 25 might without some serious alterations to most builds that would render them way less viable. Even the [most offensive meta build](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Elixir_Rifle "most offensive meta build") can't do that.

> > * It's not a "channeled" block. It's an activated block, and it only works in one direction. You make a valid point with the cooldown timer on it (especially considering DH's block is on a 60s cooldown), but that's about the only point I see as valid.

> > * I played plenty before HoT. Mesmers were never a problem for me back then because they had a huge cleansing problem, so I could generally burst burns on them and then wander off. During HoT, scrapper was just a tank, so I never really could kill anyone, but very few could kill me either.

> > * I never said it was intended to be 3/4 of a second. I said it it should have always been the same length as a standard dodge. The fact you are complaining about no longer having a special passive advantage indicates it was OP in the first place.

> > * The situation you described is extremely unlikely and very hard to reproduce, unlike the soulbeast spike and chrono shatter spike which are consistently reproducible. Complaints about holo itself may or may not be valid, but the situation you described is way outside the norm and I was trying to point that out.

> > * And if we wanted to talk about civility -- You accused me of lying when I was not. I didn't realize that Elixir U + Invigorating speed interaction was the source of the problem. You said it was only Elixir U, which is wrong.

>

> sry just giving my 2 cents since it seems u dont think holo is broken atm. last balance patch nerfed alot of things. holo wasnt one of them , sure the 2 sec stab cut did happen but land both holo 3 waves and u are still sitting at near perma stab in photon forge. only classes that were left kinda in the same state was holo and soulbeast. yet scrapper got overbuffed in tankyness so everyone is complaining about that instead. why anyone would play scrapper when its a glorified training golem with 0 dmg and not go holo with godlike sustain and aoe dmg / cc for teamfights instead is beyond me.

 

In an absolute sense, yes, holo is busted (I've mained engineer since GW2 launched, I know that holo is faceroll easy). But in a relative sense... holo doesn't stand out as more broken than other specs. Firebrand, scourge, holo, soulbeast, mirage... all are busted in terms of powercreep.

 

> the 25 stacks of might is probably comming from conversions since both torment and weakness convert to 3 stacks of might for 10 sec + the passive elixir conversion and holo's naturally output of 12-15 stacks of might when running elixir build. 25 stacks can be achieved through fighting when managing heat well

 

I could believe this -- I do run a conversion holo, so if somebody is outputting a bunch of agony and weakness against me, it will stack a bunch of might. But I'm not exactly at fault for what the enemy is casting on me, am I?

 

Sidenote: Kind of a weird inverted corruption scourge problem huh? lol

 

> photon wall is also a loaded skill imo, sure it can be hard to land but all u need to do is time it.ive been able to land it consistently in close combat by using holo leap + launch photon wall when i needed it to end a fight quickly. ez 9k dmg if all crits

 

Perhaps, but the setup is by no means a one-shot. I've had it happen to me too (and I've done it to others), but I couldn't describe it as a oneshot build. That was my complaint with @"Odik.4587", because he's treating what's closer to backstab from thief to a oneshot build.

 

> the fact that holo can be tanky with demo amulet. have 10k+ healing every 20 sec + the passive heals from boonstacking, regen and heat therapy holo passive sustain is broken for what it does when u see the dmg it puts out without having to sacrifice dmg for healing.

>

> not to mention a single cc photon forge burst rotation with static discharge is enough to kill mostly anything not running a real bunker build

 

Valid complaints. I have nothing to argue against that.

 

[Odik.4587]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

Originally I meant that I dislike to play against this specs and arent FUN for me ,extremely unfun since you said FUN is relevant.

Let me quote myself

>Also specs I described are not fun to play for me . Because fun matters ,right ?

I didnt excatly said this is oneshot type , I basically complaint that I can get 100-0 by holo arent speccing for it (you even confirmed that this happened to you and you did the same to others?). You even agree with Toxic on it, literally :

>>the fact that holo can be tanky with demo amulet. have 10k+ healing every 20 sec + the passive heals from boonstacking, regen and heat therapy holo passive sustain is broken for what it does when u see the dmg it puts out without having to sacrifice dmg for healing.

 

>>not to mention a single cc photon forge burst rotation with static discharge is enough to kill mostly anything not running a real bunker build

 

 

>Valid complaints. I have nothing to argue against that.

Yes. Ambush 0.75s is that really needed,visual indication when MC ends wouldnt hurt too.

>Yes, it is a passive advantage. The way mirage cloak works is already powerful -- allowing you to keep casting and performing actions whilst simultaneously dodging. It also buffs many of your skills. Then to throw in an extra 1/4s to the dodge is a big deal in any competitive scenario. And what do you need do to get this benefit? All you need is to have mirage spec traitline. No investment, no trait choice, you just have it by choosing to be mirage.

What is mirage without this this 'passive' advantage, its literally nothing without IH(and thats a simple GM trait,not its unique mechanic), remove it and ANY mesmer traitline overshadow entire elite spec because it has nothing otherwise ? They can remove it to hell I would care less if they give us something else. I was dying to get new shatters and new way to play mesmer or stop being dependant on clones.

>Since I'm the one who "can't read", Elixir U by itself cannot grant 25 endurance. It takes the combination of Elixir U and a trait (Invigorating Speed) to get that effect. And in that case, yes, that is a bug that should be fixed. But inaccuracies help no one, so thanks.

I told you and quotted you twice before that and explained what caused it(You just couldnt not know that) and reported this many times in game support and had mentioned this in my own thread long ago ,zero reaction.

 

You contradicting himself in your own post about might stacks . Telling me a big no , exaggerations, and say yes to a Toxic guy...

https://imgur.com/a/Llvgbt5

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> You contradicting himself in your own post about might stacks . Telling me a big no , exaggerations, and say yes to a Toxic guy...

> https://imgur.com/a/Llvgbt5

 

What you said was not accurate. A holosmith by itself cannot generate 25 might without messing up its build in a substantial way.

 

However, what @"toxic.3648" said **is** accurate, that if an enemy class outputs a bunch of agony or weakness, it can be converted into might with a conversion prot build that has [purity of purpose](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose "purity of purpose"). This is **ONLY** when an enemy is planting these conditions on the conversion holo, and cannot consistently be done with any other enemy. In other words, if you fight a conversion holo without placing agony or weakness on them, you will not see 25 might, and will usually only see between 5-10 might.

 

So yeah, I am going to agree with Toxic -- he's right. However, you're complaining about things that you don't seem to understand, and couldn't explain to me in a way I could understand.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > You contradicting himself in your own post about might stacks . Telling me a big no , exaggerations, and say yes to a Toxic guy...

> > https://imgur.com/a/Llvgbt5

>

> What you said was not accurate. A holosmith by itself cannot generate 25 might without messing up its build in a substantial way.

>

> However, what @"toxic.3648" said **is** accurate, that if an enemy class outputs a bunch of agony or weakness, it can be converted into might with a conversion prot build that has [purity of purpose](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose "purity of purpose"). This is **ONLY** when an enemy is planting these conditions on the conversion holo, and cannot consistently be done with any other enemy.

>

> So yeah, I am going to agree with Toxic -- he's right. However, you're complaining about things that you don't seem to understand, and couldn't explain to me in a way I could understand.

 

What i dont understand ? Toxic explained what I complaint about :

>>the fact that holo can be tanky with demo amulet. have 10k+ healing every 20 sec + the passive heals from boonstacking, regen and heat therapy holo passive sustain is broken for what it does when u see the dmg it puts out without having to sacrifice dmg for healing.

>>not to mention a single cc photon forge burst rotation with static discharge is enough to kill mostly anything not running a real bunker build

>Valid complaints. I have nothing to argue against that.

You literally confirmed that himself that you CAN, YOU DID and you WERE oneshotted in that manner while arent speccing for it even

>Perhaps, but the setup is by no means a one-shot. I've had it happen to me too (and I've done it to others), but I couldn't describe it as a oneshot build. That was my complaint with @Odik.4587, because he's treating what's closer to backstab from thief to a oneshot build.

So far as Toxic said you dont need purity of purpose to reach 20+ mights

May bey you dont understand yourself about your own class/traits but when you leave forge you convert conditions into boons . I didnt fought conversion holo . They all had meta rifle photon wall,quickness elixir and invul elixir.

[toxic.3648]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > You contradicting himself in your own post about might stacks . Telling me a big no , exaggerations, and say yes to a Toxic guy...

> > https://imgur.com/a/Llvgbt5

>

> What you said was not accurate. A holosmith by itself cannot generate 25 might without messing up its build in a substantial way.

>

> However, what @"toxic.3648" said **is** accurate, that if an enemy class outputs a bunch of agony or weakness, it can be converted into might with a conversion prot build that has [purity of purpose](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose "purity of purpose"). This is **ONLY** when an enemy is planting these conditions on the conversion holo, and cannot consistently be done with any other enemy. In other words, if you fight a conversion holo without placing agony or weakness on them, you will not see 25 might, and will usually only see between 5-10 might.

>

> So yeah, I am going to agree with Toxic -- he's right. However, you're complaining about things that you don't seem to understand, and couldn't explain to me in a way I could understand.

 

the 25 might stacking is sure easier on conversion prot build but u can pull it off on sd elixir build from photon disengage and lesser elixir c trait np too (i duel alot so i dont get any boons from teammates) and often wondered how i get 25 might stacks all the time since i know holo self might stacking is 16 at max with the build im running. and i find myself with 25 might vs alot of different classes and not just a select few that spam these condis consistently.

 

also seems to me u misunderstand what odik was trying to tell u when it came to holo being unfun since its class with zerk dmg, bunker sustain and cc + boonspam . its literally the same reasons he said why its unfun as i did .. ehm

 

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > You contradicting himself in your own post about might stacks . Telling me a big no , exaggerations, and say yes to a Toxic guy...

> > > https://imgur.com/a/Llvgbt5

> >

> > What you said was not accurate. A holosmith by itself cannot generate 25 might without messing up its build in a substantial way.

> >

> > However, what @"toxic.3648" said **is** accurate, that if an enemy class outputs a bunch of agony or weakness, it can be converted into might with a conversion prot build that has [purity of purpose](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose "purity of purpose"). This is **ONLY** when an enemy is planting these conditions on the conversion holo, and cannot consistently be done with any other enemy.

> >

> > So yeah, I am going to agree with Toxic -- he's right. However, you're complaining about things that you don't seem to understand, and couldn't explain to me in a way I could understand.

>

> What i dont understand ? Toxic explained what I complaint about :

> >>the fact that holo can be tanky with demo amulet. have 10k+ healing every 20 sec + the passive heals from boonstacking, regen and heat therapy holo passive sustain is broken for what it does when u see the dmg it puts out without having to sacrifice dmg for healing.

> >>not to mention a single cc photon forge burst rotation with static discharge is enough to kill mostly anything not running a real bunker build

> >Valid complaints. I have nothing to argue against that.

> You literally confirmed that himself that you CAN, YOU DID and you WERE oneshotted in that manner while arent speccing for it even

 

You are misreading what both he and I said. :smile: What he described is not a oneshot build, but it is a spike build.

 

> >Perhaps, but the setup is by no means a one-shot. I've had it happen to me too (and I've done it to others), but I couldn't describe it as a oneshot build. That was my complaint with @Odik.4587, because he's treating what's closer to backstab from thief to a oneshot build.

> So far as Toxic said you dont need purity of purpose to reach 20+ mights

> May bey you dont understand yourself about your own class/traits but when you leave forge you convert conditions into boons . I didnt fought conversion holo . They all had meta rifle photon wall,quickness elixir and invul elixir.

 

So let me lay it out for you:

 

* Corona Burst = 5 might

* HGH + Elixir U = 2 might

* HGH + Toss Elixir U = 2 might

* HGH + Elixir S = 2 might

* HGH + Toss Elixir S = 2 Might

* Convert a stack of Agony from exiting PF = 3 Might

* Convert a stack of Weakness from Exiting PF = 3 Might

 

So even under a "perfect" scenario where an engineer uses all his elixirs and exits photon forge simultaneously while only converting weakness and agony (a rather ridiculous scenario), he can only reach 19 might without team buffs. Now if you include gear or extra agony and weakness applied, it *is* possible to reach 25 might under this ideal scenario. Sigil of Battle can add [5 might for weapon swapping](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Battle_(disambiguation) "5 might for weapon swapping"). And [Rune of Leadership](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune_of_Leadership_(PvP) "Rune of Leadership") can convert another 3 conditions to boons -- but this requires the use of an elite to pull.

 

So in other words, the hypothetical scenario looks something like this:

 

* Engineer uses Corona Burst, busts out the 4 elixir skills (for some reason) -- +13 might

* Enemy applies weakness + agony -> Engineer exits photon forge and Sigil of Battle procs -- +11 might **(Most don't run sigil of battle)**

* Enemy reapplies weakness + agony -> Engineer hits Elite skill and Rune of Leadership (6) procs. -- +6 might -> capped might

* OR Enemy reapplies weakness + agony and [Lesser Elixir C procs (due to damage)](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Elixir_C "Lesser Elixir C procs (due to damage)") -- +6 might -> capped might

 

This scenario is so contrived that it's worthless to even point out, but I know you'll latch onto it anyway as proof. :smile:

 

-----

 

Whereas if we look at a conversion build, it's really easy to see what's happening that you're complaining about:

 

* HLA is up and Engi is converting conditions (1 per second) plus whatever other skills conversion holo is using to convert

* Condi mirage is constantly reapplying agony+weakness, instead of waiting for HLA to go away.

* Engineer stacks 25 might in a very short period thanks to [Purity of Purpose](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose "Purity of Purpose").

 

Conversion holo is a build explicitly designed to counter condition builds -- it's so good at it that I have to talk about it [in my other thread about condis.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72346/a-discussion-about-condition-damage-and-cleansing-why-is-it-always-broken/p1 "in my other thread about condis.") So you are complaining about a build designed be the direct counter for what's meta for ~~mesmer~~ mirage.

 

> @"toxic.3648" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > You contradicting himself in your own post about might stacks . Telling me a big no , exaggerations, and say yes to a Toxic guy...

> > > https://imgur.com/a/Llvgbt5

> >

> > What you said was not accurate. A holosmith by itself cannot generate 25 might without messing up its build in a substantial way.

> >

> > However, what @"toxic.3648" said **is** accurate, that if an enemy class outputs a bunch of agony or weakness, it can be converted into might with a conversion prot build that has [purity of purpose](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose "purity of purpose"). This is **ONLY** when an enemy is planting these conditions on the conversion holo, and cannot consistently be done with any other enemy. In other words, if you fight a conversion holo without placing agony or weakness on them, you will not see 25 might, and will usually only see between 5-10 might.

> >

> > So yeah, I am going to agree with Toxic -- he's right. However, you're complaining about things that you don't seem to understand, and couldn't explain to me in a way I could understand.

>

> also seems to me u misunderstand what odik was trying to tell u when it came to holo being unfun since its class with zerk dmg, bunker sustain and cc + boonspam . its literally the same reasons he said why its unfun as i did .. ehm

 

Well, if that's his main point, he has a weird way of arguing it. In which case... yeah, I agree it's unfun from that perspective. It's powercreeped to hell and back. But as far as other elite specs from PoF go, I still can't say it stands out in particular - it's on par with the other specs.

 

So again, I go back to this point -- in absolute terms, yes, it's OP. But in relative terms, it's not.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> It's powercreeped to hell and back. But as far as other elite specs from PoF go, I still can't say it stands out in particular - it's on par with the other specs.

> (...)

> in absolute terms, yes, it's OP. But in relative terms, it's not.

 

I'm not so sure. This probably merits a poll after the last balance update, but looking only at PoF elites, I think Holo and SB are hands down the top duelist/roamer/side-noders now. But they're also great for team fights and +1. They've got it all: sustain, mobility, and damage. Spellbreakers and Mirages may be more or less tied for a somewhat distant third, depending on individual skill and who you ask. Weaver can be a capable bunker. Firebrand is unrivaled support and Scourge unrivaled team fight/area control, if the two work together. Deadeye is well, dead, after the last patch--rarely seeing them. Renegade needs a rework for PvP.

 

I'd say Holo is easily #1 or #2 for overall PvP efficacy, only possibly behind SB.

[FyzE.3472]

Rangers have always been a counter to necros. Some might say that dumping all F skills and just walking at the opponent, as a lot of scourges do, is also a bad design.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > It's powercreeped to hell and back. But as far as other elite specs from PoF go, I still can't say it stands out in particular - it's on par with the other specs.

> > (...)

> > in absolute terms, yes, it's OP. But in relative terms, it's not.

>

> I'd say Holo is easily #1 or #2 for overall PvP efficacy, only possibly behind SB.

 

I'm watching this latest [broken class thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/73191/most-broken-class-right-now "broken class thread"). Holo is getting some mentions (as it rightfully should, it is powerful), but I don't think the majority agree that it is #1 or #2.

 

That said, it is one of the professions that allows for the greatest diversity in builds in PvP right now, which means it is high on the board because it's not being shoehorned like other classes. Engineer is one of the least-played professions, so maybe that's why fewer people complain about it.

[Mbelch.9028]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> ...Snips...

 

 

I'm confused about your whole back and forth with @"Vagrant.7206" as the following set of statements are as close to "facts" as you get:

* It's not possible for the META builds to stack 25 stacks of might unless they get very lucky on a conversion build, and it's plain old not possible on its own in a rifle build.

* There's no such thing as a one-shot Holosmith build that is viable in any realm of high-level PvP.

* When debating what is or isn't "a one shot build" it's hard to lump engineer in with that. No one skill has one-shot people on engi since 100-nades. The build I think you dislike is a spike build that utilizes a lot of CC plus a lot of little hits to kill you quickly. But it doesn't always work against skilled players and it doesn't work in games.

* Holo dishes out great damage and can still survive a licking, which some certainly would see as a problem. But folks always see problems. Too much damage? That's a problem. Too little damage? That's a problem. Too many condis? That's a problem. Too many bruisers? That's a problem. There's no panacea for balance, and Holo sits pretty well in the meta right now. It has counters and it counters certain classes. Seems fine to me right now.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Mbelch.9028" said:

Ah well, @toxic.3648 summarized everything I tried to say ...

I'm the only one who seeing 35s block that blow you up for ~50% of your health is a problem ?

>But it doesn't always work against skilled players and it doesn't work in games.

I'm low skilled now because I play mesmer ?

[Odik.4587]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > It's powercreeped to hell and back. But as far as other elite specs from PoF go, I still can't say it stands out in particular - it's on par with the other specs.

> > > (...)

> > > in absolute terms, yes, it's OP. But in relative terms, it's not.

> >

> > I'd say Holo is easily #1 or #2 for overall PvP efficacy, only possibly behind SB.

>

> I'm watching this latest [broken class thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/73191/most-broken-class-right-now "broken class thread"). Holo is getting some mentions (as it rightfully should, it is powerful), but I don't think the majority agree that it is #1 or #2.

>

> That said, it is one of the professions that allows for the greatest diversity in builds in PvP right now, which means it is high on the board because it's not being shoehorned like other classes. Engineer is one of the least-played professions, so maybe that's why fewer people complain about it.

 

This doesnt show broken **class** at all, this show which **build** they hate the most. After all nerfs dropped on cmirage voting for it is nothing but hate when the only good players left would say thats a revenant. Take serious any poll result based on small playerbase that actually using forum... *applause*

[Burnfall.9573]

[CnD] Short Fuse Condi Holosmith | 33.6k (34.9k-39.6k w/ Confusion) by Lunar

 

[Ragion.2831]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> > This guy is playing scourge and is complaining about Longbow dps ranger. Ofcourse scourge get obliterated by that, but it doesnt mean that Longbow dps ranger is OP. This is just symptomatic for whats wrong with these forums and why no one takes these forums seriously.

>

> Pvp -

>

> WvW -

>

> The OP apparently plays a weak class.....-_-

 

To quote the legend himself Nemesis, Necro is a win more class. if the team is already winning or in a position to win, necro will do well. If not, necro does bad. Secondly a ranger that knows what it is doing is infinitely more potent than any necro. Third, these are highlights, they are not a good way to tell if a class is good or not.

 

Any way you slice it, doing 30k from stealth makes no sense. Instead of talking about how to avoid things like that, you post a couple of meaningless vids set up to make the player look good.

 

In the end it really doesnt matter. Anet does not care at this point. People are getting layed off at the studio and this game is well past its growth stage so its not like they are going to do anything about it now when people have complained about stealth one shot for years.