Core necro is the posterchild for one of PvPs most pervasive issues

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > @""Ovark.2514"

> > Play core Necro for a while so you understand its weaknesses and can take advantage of them when on your favorite profession. Necromancer has huge holes in its skill set.

> >

> > One thing to understand is that Necro has few options for dealing with tells from other professions. Seeing a tell and being able to avoid the incoming damage are two different things so Necro players must carefully discern which skills to spend a counter on. Eating more CCs and damage bursts are the reason for Shroud, Fear, stun-breaks, and soft-CC conditions like weakness, blind, cripple, and chill. Necro does not have burst damage and has almost no hard CC. Core Necro, especially, is a condi-pressure profession. It does little else particularly well.

> >

> > The only block/immunity skill is shroud and it has several requirements for its use: ICD on use, charges by active attack via specific skills or local deaths, degenerates with skill use and/or with time, takes damage from incoming attacks, is unavailable without enough charge (life force), it does not prevent all damage within a time period and so does not scale up with incoming damage, and transforms the skill bar just like Signet of Humiliation.

> >

> > Regarding staff, it sets low-damage AoE traps. Staff is used for soft CC, nuisance condi, and a regen but removes most of a Necro's damage capability until it can be swapped out for other weapons. You should not have to fear staff. It merely buys time for the Necro and helps build life force.

> >

> > Read the wiki on Tainted Shackles and Chill of Death, again, and imagine what capabilities are missing in Necro such that the Dev's put those skills in the game and gave them the short/instant cast times. The shroud skill and auto-proc trait have counter-play for opponents built in them, too.

>

> I appreciate you trying to educate me on the necro but my skill at combating them is not anywhere near the topic of this thread. I'm simply reminding the devs of one of the residual problems of this game mode. The lack of adequate tells and animations for skills which apply a significant effect pushes out builds which would otherwise be useful with increased skill and practice.

 

The thing is though, you should have included Mesmer and some other instant cast class in your title and you wouldn't be getting responses like this.

 

I think Necro instant cast is insane too, it's been insane since launch cause back in 2015 they just chain CC so easy from a range. But that was combined with the ridiculous effective HP and lack of burst back in the day though. Now pretty much every class can burst and obviously.. that premise still matters before we say Necro instant cast is insane.

[Ovark.2514]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > @""Ovark.2514"

> > > Play core Necro for a while so you understand its weaknesses and can take advantage of them when on your favorite profession. Necromancer has huge holes in its skill set.

> > >

> > > One thing to understand is that Necro has few options for dealing with tells from other professions. Seeing a tell and being able to avoid the incoming damage are two different things so Necro players must carefully discern which skills to spend a counter on. Eating more CCs and damage bursts are the reason for Shroud, Fear, stun-breaks, and soft-CC conditions like weakness, blind, cripple, and chill. Necro does not have burst damage and has almost no hard CC. Core Necro, especially, is a condi-pressure profession. It does little else particularly well.

> > >

> > > The only block/immunity skill is shroud and it has several requirements for its use: ICD on use, charges by active attack via specific skills or local deaths, degenerates with skill use and/or with time, takes damage from incoming attacks, is unavailable without enough charge (life force), it does not prevent all damage within a time period and so does not scale up with incoming damage, and transforms the skill bar just like Signet of Humiliation.

> > >

> > > Regarding staff, it sets low-damage AoE traps. Staff is used for soft CC, nuisance condi, and a regen but removes most of a Necro's damage capability until it can be swapped out for other weapons. You should not have to fear staff. It merely buys time for the Necro and helps build life force.

> > >

> > > Read the wiki on Tainted Shackles and Chill of Death, again, and imagine what capabilities are missing in Necro such that the Dev's put those skills in the game and gave them the short/instant cast times. The shroud skill and auto-proc trait have counter-play for opponents built in them, too.

> >

> > I appreciate you trying to educate me on the necro but my skill at combating them is not anywhere near the topic of this thread. I'm simply reminding the devs of one of the residual problems of this game mode. The lack of adequate tells and animations for skills which apply a significant effect pushes out builds which would otherwise be useful with increased skill and practice.

>

> The thing is though, you should have included Mesmer and some other instant cast class in your title and you wouldn't be getting responses like this.

>

> I think Necro instant cast is insane too, it's been insane since launch cause back in 2015 they just chain CC so easy from a range. But that was combined with the ridiculous effective HP and lack of burst back in the day though. Now pretty much every class can burst and obviously.. that premise still matters before we say Necro instant cast is insane.

 

It's hard to say anything on this sub forum without someone telling you "yeah but what about THIS?! I know necro doesn't have the amount of insta-activation skills that mesmers and some other builds have but I chose necro because I of it's uncanny ability to fear-lock you due to its built-in boon removal and/or corruption. Thief, and Guard can't lock players down with long CCs COMBINED with auto-activating stab (and any other boon) corrupt. Rev is strong with the lockdown if it tries, but it can't boon remove as well without sacrificing CC. Mesmer is the closest to necro there is as far as perma lock-down and even then the most it can do to counter Stab is to remove/steal it by using a utility or dedicated weapon. Even then you can counter a mes brust by simply stunbreaking and dodging or cleaving the clones (if not mirage). I don't want to get into a discussion about specific classes and their ups and downs, I simply want to feel like when I get into a fight with any player, if I have the skill and game+profession knowledge to be able to put up a decent fight regardless of build. Having appropriately sized tells for skills which could completely shut down a build if they land, is paramount. People often claim, and have done so on this thread, that "boon spam" needs to have an equal and opposing force to counteract it. This is a fine line of reasoning for choosing to play a boon ripping build, but people often don't even think about the way a fight plays out between these two factions short of "One guy gains a boon and the other removes it." It's not a action then reaction sort of trade that's taking place (or at least it shouldn't be). If a player suspects the other of attempting to put protection on themselves, they can preemptively being casting a boon removal ability OR wait until the player has the boon and then attempt to remove it. A player shouldn't just be able to hit a skill while in the middle of an attack and instantly remove a boon from someone. Often times players choosing off-meta builds often have hard decisions to make regarding defensive vs offensive utilities. Boon-rip and CC the way it is now demands a build play with at least 2 stunbreak/sustain utilities in order to be effective. Unfortunately, the game is currently designed to have about 1/4 of all utilities be stunbreaks (one for each utility type), and almost never are they all equally useful. This means that you will need to sacrifice 2/3 of your utility skills for stunbreaks. This means that you have to choose 2 out of the average of 6 stunbreak skills AT BEST. That alone should be reason for concern. In a world where you have 3 slots, 2 of which have to come from a choice of about 6, it's no wonder that build diversity has struggled since this games inception.

 

This didn't start as a rant and I apologize that this happened as a response to your post BlackTruth. I may in the future make a dedicated thread for these topics and more. It's probably just the 7 years of pent up disappointment spilling out from seeing the player base complaining about symptoms rather than the root causes and the devs following suit.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > @""Ovark.2514"

> > > > Play core Necro for a while so you understand its weaknesses and can take advantage of them when on your favorite profession. Necromancer has huge holes in its skill set.

> > > >

> > > > One thing to understand is that Necro has few options for dealing with tells from other professions. Seeing a tell and being able to avoid the incoming damage are two different things so Necro players must carefully discern which skills to spend a counter on. Eating more CCs and damage bursts are the reason for Shroud, Fear, stun-breaks, and soft-CC conditions like weakness, blind, cripple, and chill. Necro does not have burst damage and has almost no hard CC. Core Necro, especially, is a condi-pressure profession. It does little else particularly well.

> > > >

> > > > The only block/immunity skill is shroud and it has several requirements for its use: ICD on use, charges by active attack via specific skills or local deaths, degenerates with skill use and/or with time, takes damage from incoming attacks, is unavailable without enough charge (life force), it does not prevent all damage within a time period and so does not scale up with incoming damage, and transforms the skill bar just like Signet of Humiliation.

> > > >

> > > > Regarding staff, it sets low-damage AoE traps. Staff is used for soft CC, nuisance condi, and a regen but removes most of a Necro's damage capability until it can be swapped out for other weapons. You should not have to fear staff. It merely buys time for the Necro and helps build life force.

> > > >

> > > > Read the wiki on Tainted Shackles and Chill of Death, again, and imagine what capabilities are missing in Necro such that the Dev's put those skills in the game and gave them the short/instant cast times. The shroud skill and auto-proc trait have counter-play for opponents built in them, too.

> > >

> > > I appreciate you trying to educate me on the necro but my skill at combating them is not anywhere near the topic of this thread. I'm simply reminding the devs of one of the residual problems of this game mode. The lack of adequate tells and animations for skills which apply a significant effect pushes out builds which would otherwise be useful with increased skill and practice.

> >

> > The thing is though, you should have included Mesmer and some other instant cast class in your title and you wouldn't be getting responses like this.

> >

> > I think Necro instant cast is insane too, it's been insane since launch cause back in 2015 they just chain CC so easy from a range. But that was combined with the ridiculous effective HP and lack of burst back in the day though. Now pretty much every class can burst and obviously.. that premise still matters before we say Necro instant cast is insane.

>

> It's hard to say anything on this sub forum without someone telling you "yeah but what about THIS?! I know necro doesn't have the amount of insta-activation skills that mesmers and some other builds have but I chose necro because I of it's uncanny ability to fear-lock you due to its built-in boon removal and/or corruption. Thief, and Guard can't lock players down with long CCs COMBINED with auto-activating stab (and any other boon) corrupt. Rev is strong with the lockdown if it tries, but it can't boon remove as well without sacrificing CC. Mesmer is the closest to necro there is as far as perma lock-down and even then the most it can do to counter Stab is to remove/steal it by using a utility or dedicated weapon. Even then you can counter a mes brust by simply stunbreaking and dodging or cleaving the clones (if not mirage). I don't want to get into a discussion about specific classes and their ups and downs, I simply want to feel like when I get into a fight with any player, if I have the skill and game+profession knowledge to be able to put up a decent fight regardless of build. Having appropriately sized tells for skills which could completely shut down a build if they land, is paramount. People often claim, and have done so on this thread, that "boon spam" needs to have an equal and opposing force to counteract it. This is a fine line of reasoning for choosing to play a boon ripping build, but people often don't even think about the way a fight plays out between these two factions short of "One guy gains a boon and the other removes it." It's not a action then reaction sort of trade that's taking place (or at least it shouldn't be). If a player suspects the other of attempting to put protection on themselves, they can preemptively being casting a boon removal ability OR wait until the player has the boon and then attempt to remove it. A player shouldn't just be able to hit a skill while in the middle of an attack and instantly remove a boon from someone. Often times players choosing off-meta builds often have hard decisions to make regarding defensive vs offensive utilities. Boon-rip and CC the way it is now demands a build play with at least 2 stunbreak/sustain utilities in order to be effective. Unfortunately, the game is currently designed to have about 1/4 of all utilities be stunbreaks (one for each utility type), and almost never are they all equally useful. This means that you will need to sacrifice 2/3 of your utility skills for stunbreaks. This means that you have to choose 2 out of the average of 6 stunbreak skills AT BEST. That alone should be reason for concern. In a world where you have 3 slots, 2 of which have to come from a choice of about 6, it's no wonder that build diversity has struggled since this games inception.

>

> This didn't start as a rant and I apologize that this happened as a response to your post BlackTruth. I may in the future make a dedicated thread for these topics and more. It's probably just the 7 years of pent up disappointment spilling out from seeing the player base complaining about symptoms rather than the root causes and the devs following suit.

 

No need for apologies, but yeah another thread has received the same treatment (one where one guy didn't include mesmer on things to talk about)

 

Instant cast is just insane when in a 1v1 for a point in conquest. It is DEFINITELY too much of an advantage like literally you could probably catch people at the end of an evade type of scenario as well. Getting stability corrupted is very bad for certain match ups too, and can be very infuriating for non-pulsing stab

 

You aren't wrong when you say Necro has really obnoxious things about it. I'm sure people might complain about them assuming that the other evils get nerfed but necro isn't touched tbh.

[Falan.1839]

Technically you are correct about the tells, but compared to the powercrept mechanics from many HoT and PoF specs (or core ones that got powercrept later), all those skills you mentioned are fairly small impact. Core Nec has tons of corrupts and a very high HP pool, but that's pretty much it, making it a very easy target to +1 and usually struggling to get a kill.

 

I think lack of tells can be a problem when it concerns the really big hitters, but isn't really one when it concerns skills like Chillblains or Tainted Shackles. If you want to dodge skills like these you have to dodge preemptively and risk wasting a dodge.