AlexxxDelta.1806 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Syrus.2174" said: > > > > > > > Don't hate on the country finally setting up laws against gambling in games, hate on the companies still continuing with it, and not offering alternatives, despite some people not being able to "participate". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because the "exclude the people who's government bans gambling in video games"-tactic seems to be working quite well for them; they make the players push against those laws despite how necessary they actually should be. Gambling is a slippery slope, which children should have no access to, even as an adult I consider it dangerous terrain where you can lose track of how much you actually spend quite quickly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I cannot and will not tell adults how or where to spend their money, laws banning gambling in games (especially those targeted at a younger audience, which MMOs usually are), are in now way a bad thing. The "unfair treatment" you feel just isn't because of the laws in a way, but the game companies' unwillingness to stop making children gamble with real life money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If more countries took a move against this rampant loot box gambling, though hopefully with clear lines of where it starts ..., game companies would have to rethink their sales models and would HAVE to offer alternatives. > > > > > > > > > > > > This. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately early adopters are punished (or rather better protected) from unhealthy practices. Game companies can still make enough money by ignoring the few countries with very strict anti loot box laws. Once a critical mass is reached, the entire industry is going to flip. It's slowly happening in some areas already. Just look at how important it is to EA PR speak to always include the no loot boxes phrase on new titles. > > > > > > > > > > > > Some established titles are moving and shifting their micro-transactions to be more in line with less predatory practices. > > > > > > > > > > Stop with the false gambling narrative, it's not gambling...only in the loosest sense of the term, if you wanted to go with the strictest sense it definitely isn't gambling, because in the strictest sense you could spend money and get absolutely nothing...in this case you're guaranteed something, whether it's something you want or not doesn't matter, you win, there fore it's not gambling, simple as that. It's not my fault or any companies fault if certain people and countries don't understand this. Unfortunately the only reason Belgium went and said loot boxes were gambling is because of the extreme route EA went with SW:BF2(putting some of the best items behind randomness in loot boxes, if they had only included cosmetic items we wouldn't be at this stage)...it's that simple. Now we shouldn't derail this thread by going off on the tangent of what is and isn't gambling, everyone will have a difference of opinion, mine just happens to be based on fact(not based on how it stimulates areas of the brain, which is totally not the point and a ridiculous reason). > > > > > > > > You actually made it quite clear why Belgium did it.. now consider what you value most out of BLC's.. and how you get them.. it is gambling in any sense of the term because it uses predatory practices to attempt to get players (of all ages, but including those considered under age) to play the game of chance in the hope they get that one shiny they seek. ANET have at least gone down the route of pushing out guaranteed returns and "choose your mount" options for various packs, but more could and should be done. > > > > If other countries begin to take a hardened look at these types of gambling mechanics like Belgium (and there are others already engaged in that process) then it may well come to head and force ANET to actually rethink their loot box strategy … until then spend responsibly and read before you buy is all. > > > > > > > **> EDIT - There are some interesting studies and statistics that have been put out for general consumption in regards to online gambling and more notably underage gambling.. google is your friend if you want to see just how easy it has become for certain demographics to get into addictive levels of gambling from both online gaming and online betting and the trend is upward. > > > > > > > > That said.. it is not just ANET who should be making the effort to safeguard against such things happening within their product, personal responsibility is mustard, but those deemed underage are so for good reasons, therefor parents must shoulder the responsibility for this as well. > > > ** > > > > > > First off, I don't care about the studies and certain demographics...it's not just about personal responsibility, it's also genetics, the government should stay out of trying to solve the gambling problem and stay out of how parents do or do not actually parent their children. Does gambling cause monetary and social issues, yes, but that is only the fault of the individual, not some outside source(even for those that "can't control" themselves). Same goes for the parents that refuse to monitor and control what their children do and spend money on, these should be teaching moments, but a lot of parents today just don't want to parent, they want the government to do it for them. > > > > > > P.S., I personally don't care whether I get those ultra rare items from BLTC or not, everything is just a virtual item anyways, and some of it is trash and the rest I'll either use or just sell on the TP for even minimum amounts of silver/gold, if I get lucky and get a rare item, great, if not, no big deal...it's my money and I choose to spend it how I want, I'm not enamored of the big shiny item...otherwise I'd have made at least a Legendary and tried to get some of the other so called "prestige" items. I just get what I like. > > > > > So full of fail, it hurts the eyes just reading all that. > > > > Gambling addiction whilst on the face of it might appear to be a personal issue, but that can very quickly become a much larger issue including crime and that can affect many others in ways you would not even want to imagine. As for underage gambling.. why do you think they are considered underage? who is responsible for minors where you live? > > > > BTW this is not about you or I it's about the wider scale of the issue, no one cares if you have no interest in BLC shinnies that is not the point of the discussion at all, neither do I for that matter, but unfortunately not everyone thinks or acts that way. The fact you have no interest in the issues or the very real stats that are appearing on this topic is your choice and that's fine, but to just dismiss the issue like you seemingly do only adds to the very real problem that is growing. Interestingly enough there was a further paper submitted just yesterday into the UK government in relation to underage online gambling, which thankfully shows there are some out there that do want to help tackle the issue in ways a little more seriously than "not my problem, I am cool with it". > > That said.. ignorance can be bliss I guess. > > > > Yes, this isn't about your or I, and do not think for one minute I don't know about the larger issues that gambling addiction can cause, but those larger issues are still not always the responsibility of the government...unless everyone is that has problems have no family members alive(as in they are the only person left in their family, then it becomes a problem for others), otherwise, if someone in a family has an issue, it's the responsibility of not only that individual but of the family to deal with it(that actually goes for everything, no one wants to be responsible for others in their family). > > As for under age gambling and who's responsible, the parents, the parents are who're responsible for their children and what they do, until they become an adult and can make their own decisions it is the responsibility of the parent(s) to know what their children are doing and if need be correct the behavior or teach them the proper way to handle things...that's how it was in my case with my parents and how it was when I had my own children. I always had issues with parents that refused to control their children, and more often than not I would say something about...and if need be deal with it myself(which of course didn't go over well, but that wasn't my problem, it was the other parents problem). > > This is obviously going nowhere, and I think we aren't going to agree on the subject, so we should just agree to disagree on this one. Your logic about individual/family responsibility could be applied to other things like underage drug addiction, traditional gambling, alcohol consumption etc, the similarities to this hot topic are obvious after all. Are the laws concerning these, unnecessary too? I would agree that over-regulation and/or prohibition for all age groups is not a solution, more like band-aid. But, to go back on topic, that's not what is happening here. Belgium and other EU countries are just asking game studios to adhere to existing gambling laws. They'd still be able to sell their gambleboxes but they 'd have to be upfront about it, age-rate it properly and inform the consumers about the fact. The studios refused and chose to "ban" the items themselves as a means of pressure. How's that over-regulation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Syrus.2174" said: > > > > > > > Don't hate on the country finally setting up laws against gambling in games, hate on the companies still continuing with it, and not offering alternatives, despite some people not being able to "participate". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because the "exclude the people who's government bans gambling in video games"-tactic seems to be working quite well for them; they make the players push against those laws despite how necessary they actually should be. Gambling is a slippery slope, which children should have no access to, even as an adult I consider it dangerous terrain where you can lose track of how much you actually spend quite quickly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I cannot and will not tell adults how or where to spend their money, laws banning gambling in games (especially those targeted at a younger audience, which MMOs usually are), are in now way a bad thing. The "unfair treatment" you feel just isn't because of the laws in a way, but the game companies' unwillingness to stop making children gamble with real life money. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If more countries took a move against this rampant loot box gambling, though hopefully with clear lines of where it starts ..., game companies would have to rethink their sales models and would HAVE to offer alternatives. > > > > > > > > > > > > This. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately early adopters are punished (or rather better protected) from unhealthy practices. Game companies can still make enough money by ignoring the few countries with very strict anti loot box laws. Once a critical mass is reached, the entire industry is going to flip. It's slowly happening in some areas already. Just look at how important it is to EA PR speak to always include the no loot boxes phrase on new titles. > > > > > > > > > > > > Some established titles are moving and shifting their micro-transactions to be more in line with less predatory practices. > > > > > > > > > > Stop with the false gambling narrative, it's not gambling...only in the loosest sense of the term, if you wanted to go with the strictest sense it definitely isn't gambling, because in the strictest sense you could spend money and get absolutely nothing...in this case you're guaranteed something, whether it's something you want or not doesn't matter, you win, there fore it's not gambling, simple as that. It's not my fault or any companies fault if certain people and countries don't understand this. Unfortunately the only reason Belgium went and said loot boxes were gambling is because of the extreme route EA went with SW:BF2(putting some of the best items behind randomness in loot boxes, if they had only included cosmetic items we wouldn't be at this stage)...it's that simple. Now we shouldn't derail this thread by going off on the tangent of what is and isn't gambling, everyone will have a difference of opinion, mine just happens to be based on fact(not based on how it stimulates areas of the brain, which is totally not the point and a ridiculous reason). > > > > > > > > You actually made it quite clear why Belgium did it.. now consider what you value most out of BLC's.. and how you get them.. it is gambling in any sense of the term because it uses predatory practices to attempt to get players (of all ages, but including those considered under age) to play the game of chance in the hope they get that one shiny they seek. ANET have at least gone down the route of pushing out guaranteed returns and "choose your mount" options for various packs, but more could and should be done. > > > > If other countries begin to take a hardened look at these types of gambling mechanics like Belgium (and there are others already engaged in that process) then it may well come to head and force ANET to actually rethink their loot box strategy … until then spend responsibly and read before you buy is all. > > > > > > > **> EDIT - There are some interesting studies and statistics that have been put out for general consumption in regards to online gambling and more notably underage gambling.. google is your friend if you want to see just how easy it has become for certain demographics to get into addictive levels of gambling from both online gaming and online betting and the trend is upward. > > > > > > > > That said.. it is not just ANET who should be making the effort to safeguard against such things happening within their product, personal responsibility is mustard, but those deemed underage are so for good reasons, therefor parents must shoulder the responsibility for this as well. > > > ** > > > > > > First off, I don't care about the studies and certain demographics...it's not just about personal responsibility, it's also genetics, the government should stay out of trying to solve the gambling problem and stay out of how parents do or do not actually parent their children. Does gambling cause monetary and social issues, yes, but that is only the fault of the individual, not some outside source(even for those that "can't control" themselves). Same goes for the parents that refuse to monitor and control what their children do and spend money on, these should be teaching moments, but a lot of parents today just don't want to parent, they want the government to do it for them. > > > > > > P.S., I personally don't care whether I get those ultra rare items from BLTC or not, everything is just a virtual item anyways, and some of it is trash and the rest I'll either use or just sell on the TP for even minimum amounts of silver/gold, if I get lucky and get a rare item, great, if not, no big deal...it's my money and I choose to spend it how I want, I'm not enamored of the big shiny item...otherwise I'd have made at least a Legendary and tried to get some of the other so called "prestige" items. I just get what I like. > > > > > So full of fail, it hurts the eyes just reading all that. > > > > Gambling addiction whilst on the face of it might appear to be a personal issue, but that can very quickly become a much larger issue including crime and that can affect many others in ways you would not even want to imagine. As for underage gambling.. why do you think they are considered underage? who is responsible for minors where you live? > > > > BTW this is not about you or I it's about the wider scale of the issue, no one cares if you have no interest in BLC shinnies that is not the point of the discussion at all, neither do I for that matter, but unfortunately not everyone thinks or acts that way. The fact you have no interest in the issues or the very real stats that are appearing on this topic is your choice and that's fine, but to just dismiss the issue like you seemingly do only adds to the very real problem that is growing. Interestingly enough there was a further paper submitted just yesterday into the UK government in relation to underage online gambling, which thankfully shows there are some out there that do want to help tackle the issue in ways a little more seriously than "not my problem, I am cool with it". > > That said.. ignorance can be bliss I guess. > > > > Yes, this isn't about your or I, and do not think for one minute I don't know about the larger issues that gambling addiction can cause, but those larger issues are still not always the responsibility of the government...unless everyone is that has problems have no family members alive(as in they are the only person left in their family, then it becomes a problem for others), otherwise, if someone in a family has an issue, it's the responsibility of not only that individual but of the family to deal with it(that actually goes for everything, no one wants to be responsible for others in their family). > > As for under age gambling and who's responsible, the parents, the parents are who're responsible for their children and what they do, until they become an adult and can make their own decisions it is the responsibility of the parent(s) to know what their children are doing and if need be correct the behavior or teach them the proper way to handle things...that's how it was in my case with my parents and how it was when I had my own children. I always had issues with parents that refused to control their children, and more often than not I would say something about...and if need be deal with it myself(which of course didn't go over well, but that wasn't my problem, it was the other parents problem). > > This is obviously going nowhere, and I think we aren't going to agree on the subject, so we should just agree to disagree on this one. Again your misquoting/misrepresenting what I have said.. I never said it was the governments responsibility. Governments govern laws, parents govern their children, online gambling governs itself within the framework of those laws set by government.. but they are also known to prey on the weaknesses of others both young and old.. therefore it has to be a shared responsibility otherwise when one of those elements fails it leaves the potential for harm. You still keep bringing this back to what your do, what you want, what you feel.. it is not about you and how good or bad you are at self control, parental control or what may or may not influence you within the game.. it is about the wider populous where not everyone acts or thinks the same, not everyone has that same level of self control or parental guidance.. unfortunately not all society is equal. Like another poster has said with Belgium they took a decision after much deliberation and consultation and apparently industry push back, which I guess has led to the situation we see in the gemstore today. It sucks that players from Belgium are excluded from certain things and maybe ANET will push out further ideas for the gemstore to overcome them, they have shown they are willing to listen when it comes to things like mount box lottery.. so who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOX.3582 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 > @"Syrus.2174" said: > Don't hate on the country finally setting up laws against gambling in games, hate on the companies still continuing with it, and not offering alternatives, despite some people not being able to "participate". > > Because the "exclude the people who's government bans gambling in video games"-tactic seems to be working quite well for them; they make the players push against those laws despite how necessary they actually should be. Gambling is a slippery slope, which children should have no access to, even as an adult I consider it dangerous terrain where you can lose track of how much you actually spend quite quickly. > > While I cannot and will not tell adults how or where to spend their money, laws banning gambling in games (especially those targeted at a younger audience, which MMOs usually are), are in now way a bad thing. The "unfair treatment" you feel just isn't because of the laws in a way, but the game companies' unwillingness to stop making children gamble with real life money. > > If more countries took a move against this rampant loot box gambling, though hopefully with clear lines of where it starts ..., game companies would have to rethink their sales models and would HAVE to offer alternatives. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Origami.9108 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 (This post took me three days to write because I am a weirdo, so sorry if I cover ground done by others.) Oof, this thread is more political than a Congressional hearing, but darn if it's not interesting. There seems to be a series of values being considered here. 1. Gambling is dangerous to the mentally weakened and infirm and especially harmful to the development of children. Our biological imperative to continue the Asur- I mean Human Race demands we protect our progeny! 2. Nations have the sovereign right to protect their citizens from predatory market practices, especially those originating from corporations founded in other nations. 3. Nations also have the right to allow business practices within their own borders which are considered unethical by other nations. Such is the nature of sovereignty. 4. Consumers have an expectation in our global economy for all products to be available in some capacity to all consumers without regards for nation or citizenship. This expectation is placed upon corporations and demands that predicts be localized in such a way that all consumers may participate in the product, inasfar as local law permits. 5. Localization is a long hard, incredibly complex process which costs money. That cost (as I understand it) is not a linear progression either, meaning that for each additional round or step of localization, the cost of production begins stepping up exponentially. This requires developers and companies whose continued production rely on profits to make hard calls in what to localize and what to cut. 6. Development is an opaque process. What appears simple and elegant in final form is rarely as easy to produce as it is to consume. All any programmer about the hells of setting up a simple and functional login page. You use it for about 3.5 seconds a day. It can take literal months to produce. We consumers cannot know how much work it would be to produce a localized version of a product on the gem store. All of these values and considerations are valid. The question we are running into is this: which is more important? That answer will be different from person to person, and this is the foundation for conflict. Everyone is actually right, when it comes to their values. But not everyone can be right when it comes to actions based on those values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lare.5129 Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 I time to time see word "underage" .. Why at all some peopel want redirect discurssion about that ? I think the less that 21 year players count so small, that no any point think about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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