[qT] Weaver benchmark and overview

[Sunshine.5014]

> Elementalist: While Weaver is very strong on the golem in reality it’s a very fragile Spec with a lot of downsides that aren’t obvious right away. Some of the problems are: Arcane Variant you apply no Vulnerability since you also lose access to Overload Air, meaning your group might not even cap Vulnerability. You don’t have access to any CC apart from your Deep Freeze. Gust is a major DPS loss because you have to double attune into Air. In Wing 1 and Wing 3 Weakness can’t be applied to any boss so you have to run with Signet of Fire and an Accuracy Sigil resulting in a substantial DPS loss. You lose the Protection and Stability from Overloading resulting in an even squishier class and a more interruptible rotation.

 

[Azel.4786]

Awesome, the only place that Weaver had potential - PvE raids - has been debunked by qT for a simple reason that I don't tire to say: Weaver offers nothing but %damage / stat buffs, and the %damage/stat is not enough to compensate for the absolute lack of anything else.

 

And BTW, it will never have such an absurd DPS to make it outclass the other classes enough to warrant taking it even though it offers nothing else, because that would not be balanced.

[lLobo.7960]

Condi d/f weaver is still great dps, below only (but very close to) necro...

 

I'm sure those will change soon as there should be more balance patches on the way with the new raid wing and LS.

[Raguel.9402]

Condi Weaver only does so much damage assuming you have fgs up 24/7 and there are no adds to soak up the extra damage it procs. Pretty much same as condi tempest just obviously higher.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Azel.4786 said:

> Awesome, the only place that Weaver had potential - PvE raids - has been debunked by qT for a simple reason that I don't tire to say: Weaver offers nothing but %damage / stat buffs, and the %damage/stat is not enough to compensate for the absolute lack of anything else.

>

> And BTW, it will never have such an absurd DPS to make it outclass the other classes enough to warrant taking it even though it offers nothing else, because that would not be balanced.

 

In order to be balanced, it *must* outclass the rest in pure dps. Simply because it has nothing else. If it doesn't happen, then it will be a useless spec.

[Azel.4786]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> In order to be balanced, it *must* outclass the rest in pure dps. Simply because it has nothing else. If it doesn't happen, then it will be a useless spec.

 

I agree with that, but mark my words - it won't just like it doesn't today in the words of qT themselves.

 

The problem with the Weaver is that just bringing DPS it must bring it reliably and high to be used - which it doesn't so the numbers are highly inflated. If it doesn't bring very high DPS to outclass the others, the spec is trash because it brings nothing.

 

But if it does bring enough realistic DPS to outclass the others to make it worth it, it will completely destroy any other class that brings DPS even if they bring some added utility (because people will think on the big numbers and not the fine details of class composition, so instead of LFG saying "no Weaver" it will say "Need DPS - Weaver or kick".

 

Plus you need to consider that with a difficult combo, the number of people that will be able to pull it off will be small (reliability) so not only the DPS must be high, but the combo needs to be "easier" - otherwise it will continue to be false numbers and you are better off betting on the guy that brings a firebrand that brings good utility and damage than betting on whether that ele player can reliably pull those gigantic numbers.

 

So it is a very very difficult gap between OP and absolute trash which, quite frankly, creates a gigantic balance problem for the spec that is purely created by the devs not seeing the bigger picture of what makes classes good and balanced today and what doesn't.

 

We are not in the old days that putting points in a trait line is done to get stat points plus pick some utility Romanic number traits, that is way before HoT. And the Ele should evolve already.

 

And, BTW, all of this is PvE talk. The spec is not useful for WvW (roaming or large scale) - in large scale the static nature of eles damage make it near worthless as a damage dealer (in any form of organized Group play - unless you are there to just tag people and leeching of a Zerg) and in roaming it requires you to significantly out play the other player (and even then if you don't find a hard counter to you).

 

PvP is a lot like the roaming scene, out play significantly and hope it is not a hard counter, and in team fights play like a weak thief picking people off from the sides.

[apharma.3741]

I can hear them, can you? Just over there on that rock, the seals, flapping their flippers together going “nerf nerf nerf”

 

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LN6-pMBXsg

[Feanor.2358]

> @Azel.4786 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > In order to be balanced, it *must* outclass the rest in pure dps. Simply because it has nothing else. If it doesn't happen, then it will be a useless spec.

>

> I agree with that, but mark my words - it won't just like it doesn't today in the words of qT themselves.

>

> The problem with the Weaver is that just bringing DPS it must bring it reliably and high to be used - which it doesn't so the numbers are highly inflated. If it doesn't bring very high DPS to outclass the others, the spec is trash because it brings nothing.

>

> But if it does bring enough realistic DPS to outclass the others to make it worth it, it will completely destroy any other class that brings DPS even if they bring some added utility (because people will think on the big numbers and not the fine details of class composition, so instead of LFG saying "no Weaver" it will say "Need DPS - Weaver or kick".

>

> Plus you need to consider that with a difficult combo, the number of people that will be able to pull it off will be small (reliability) so not only the DPS must be high, but the combo needs to be "easier" - otherwise it will continue to be false numbers and you are better off betting on the guy that brings a firebrand that brings good utility and damage than betting on whether that ele player can reliably pull those gigantic numbers.

>

> So it is a very very difficult gap between OP and absolute trash which, quite frankly, creates a gigantic balance problem for the spec that is purely created by the devs not seeing the bigger picture of what makes classes good and balanced today and what doesn't.

 

I disagree. Why should it be easy or reliable? Leave it with the gigantic numbers, which are only achievable if both you and your party are very skilled. It's already only good for that, at least leave it give some reward in the unlikely case you pull it off.

 

 

> @Azel.4786 said:

> And, BTW, all of this is PvE talk. The spec is not useful for WvW (roaming or large scale) - in large scale the static nature of eles damage make it near worthless as a damage dealer (in any form of organized Group play - unless you are there to just tag people and leeching of a Zerg) and in roaming it requires you to significantly out play the other player (and even then if you don't find a hard counter to you).

>

> PvP is a lot like the roaming scene, out play significantly and hope it is not a hard counter, and in team fights play like a weak thief picking people off from the sides.

 

It works for my backline staff ele. It's trades some versatility for some damage, that's all. Requires some planning ahead, but it's OK really. For roaming and sPvP I don't know. Sword looks to me designed for this type of fighting, but I don't do either so I can't be sure.

[Azel.4786]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> I disagree. Why should it be easy or reliable? Leave it with the gigantic numbers, which are only achievable if both you and your party are very skilled. It's already only good for that, at least leave it give some reward in the unlikely case you pull it off.

 

Doesn't need to be "easy", just reliable - which is very far from it right now.

 

The reason being simple - health of the game.

 

If you make it so that only the top players can achieve it (and the DPS is high) it will become the "perfect meta" that the "raid pros" will use to speed clear content - making other classes obsolete in the high raid meta where you can stack more weavers and focus the boon uptime / debuff uptime pressure with fewer players.

 

However, this will create a false sense in much of the community of other classes being "worthless" and the average Weaver player actually being "worthless" - hence the mess.

 

Can this somehow be balanced that the numbers are possible of not creating this craziness? Sure, but that is very precise which, let's be honest, ain't ANET's forte.

 

A good raid balance in GW2 is when no class significantly outperforms the other, but each can help to fill a gap and/or distribute the buff / debuff / CC / DPS pressure with the others by working together.

 

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> It works for my backline staff ele. It's trades some versatility for some damage, that's all. Requires some planning ahead, but it's OK really. For roaming and sPvP I don't know. Sword looks to me designed for this type of fighting, but I don't do either so I can't be sure.

 

Staff Back line DPS ele is bad (too static and slow hitting, plus weaker than Necro and without any of the necro added utility of boon corrupting, stripping or condi spreading). It is completely out of the scene and, of course you can take it to WvW for your personal enjoyment, but so can the base Bearbow ranger do that too - just doesn't mean that it is good.

 

Any well organized play will bring Firebrand for its versatility in damage and sustain, plus stability, Necro for DPS and Rev for resistance. Sprinkle a few tempest ministrel for added sustain and Spellbreaker for the utility with the elite skill.

 

Staff Backline brings terrible DPS to the group, but can net you many bags due to the big AoE tagging tool that Meteor is. But make no mistake, you will be leeching of the Meta classes for your bags and not being that useful for the team.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Azel.4786 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > I disagree. Why should it be easy or reliable? Leave it with the gigantic numbers, which are only achievable if both you and your party are very skilled. It's already only good for that, at least leave it give some reward in the unlikely case you pull it off.

>

> Doesn't need to be "easy", just reliable - which is very far from it right now.

>

> The reason being simple - health of the game.

>

> If you make it so that only the top players can achieve it (and the DPS is high) it will become the "perfect meta" that the "raid pros" will use to speed clear content - making other classes obsolete in the high raid meta where you can stack more weavers and focus the boon uptime / debuff uptime pressure with fewer players.

>

> However, this will create a false sense in much of the community of other classes being "worthless" and the average Weaver player actually being "worthless" - hence the mess.

>

> Can this somehow be balanced that the numbers are possible of not creating this craziness? Sure, but that is very precise which, let's be honest, ain't ANET's forte.

>

> A good raid balance in GW2 is when no class significantly outperforms the other, but each can help to fill a gap and/or distribute the buff / debuff / CC / DPS pressure with the others by working together.

 

I disagree, again. First off, as it is Weaver is already more of a niche thing for the speed clears. On small hitboxes basically everything condi is better now, so if you care about the speed you're better off with something else. It's very strong on KC, strong on Gorse, Sloth (depending on your tactic and luck really, I can see FA Staff Tempest being a better pick there), Samarog and Deimos. 5/13 bosses where it's the best dps pick doesn't seem unfair considering its complete lack of utility.

 

>

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > It works for my backline staff ele. It's trades some versatility for some damage, that's all. Requires some planning ahead, but it's OK really. For roaming and sPvP I don't know. Sword looks to me designed for this type of fighting, but I don't do either so I can't be sure.

>

> Staff Back line DPS ele is bad (too static and slow hitting, plus weaker than Necro and without any of the necro added utility of boon corrupting, stripping or condi spreading). It is completely out of the scene and, of course you can take it to WvW for your personal enjoyment, but so can the base Bearbow ranger do that too - just doesn't mean that it is good.

>

> Any well organized play will bring Firebrand for its versatility in damage and sustain, plus stability, Necro for DPS and Rev for resistance. Sprinkle a few tempest ministrel for added sustain and Spellbreaker for the utility with the elite skill.

>

> Staff Backline brings terrible DPS to the group, but can net you many bags due to the big AoE tagging tool that Meteor is. But make no mistake, you will be leeching of the Meta classes for your bags and not being that useful for the team.

 

I can confidently say my dps isn't all that bad, mostly because most of the zerg is playing random builds which are worse. But I see your point.

[DutchRiders.2871]

> @Azel.4786 said:

> Awesome, the only place that Weaver had potential - PvE raids - has been debunked by qT for a simple reason that I don't tire to say: Weaver offers nothing but %damage / stat buffs, and the %damage/stat is not enough to compensate for the absolute lack of anything else.

>

> And BTW, it will never have such an absurd DPS to make it outclass the other classes enough to warrant taking it even though it offers nothing else, because that would not be balanced.

 

Tempest was already as squishie as they come and also required certain tactics and conditions to truely shine.

 

Don 't misunderstand, very often weaver can pull good numbers. But they do not recommend you running weaver no matter what.

[Azel.4786]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> I disagree, again. First off, as it is Weaver is already more of a niche thing for the speed clears. On small hitboxes basically everything condi is better now, so if you care about the speed you're better off with something else. It's very strong on KC, strong on Gorse, Sloth (depending on your tactic and luck really, I can see FA Staff Tempest being a better pick there), Samarog and Deimos. 5/13 bosses where it's the best dps pick doesn't seem unfair considering its complete lack of utility.

 

Just so we are clear - I am not saying that since Weaver brings literally nothing but damage, it shouldn't be uncontested top tier in the DPS.

 

What I am saying is that this won't happen - should it? Yeah if all it does is damage it needs to do great at it, but it won't because of the absolute mess that it will be to fine tune it to be great but not so great it makes others worthless.

 

And the thing about reliability on the damage dealing is if it only works in the hands of 1% of the players, it is not balanced and will bring many more issues for the fine tuning, because as you reduce your data for analyzes the implications of your changes can get more and more unpredictable, as well as the general perception will be "it is just not worth it".

 

What will happen is that unless you are only raiding with your guild / friends, the likelihood of your acceptance is reduced because of your difficulty.

 

By bringing only damage you put more strain in others to compensate on your lack of utility / buffing, thus making others work harder to help you and, again, if you don't perform stellar DPS to be worth it, the group starts to crack faster.

 

So if you have a choice in your party for the next unknown guy to enter and you have a Weaver join you, you will wonder is that guy the 1% that is worth it or is he absolute trash and I might as well get another class that is easier to get someone average that helps to maintain the group utility and the DPS is reasonable?

 

Most cases, people will take the safer bet so you will end up being "unwanted".

 

You are like the shiny new link on the chain, that is the most brittle as well.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @Azel.4786 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > I disagree, again. First off, as it is Weaver is already more of a niche thing for the speed clears. On small hitboxes basically everything condi is better now, so if you care about the speed you're better off with something else. It's very strong on KC, strong on Gorse, Sloth (depending on your tactic and luck really, I can see FA Staff Tempest being a better pick there), Samarog and Deimos. 5/13 bosses where it's the best dps pick doesn't seem unfair considering its complete lack of utility.

>

> Just so we are clear - I am not saying that since Weaver brings literally nothing but damage, it shouldn't be uncontested top tier in the DPS.

>

> What I am saying is that this won't happen - should it?

 

Um... it had happened. It's pretty much the status quo right now. Should it remain like this? We'll see. If I judge by my team, why not? I'm the only one consistently playing weaver, and only because I'm an ele main. We get scourges, firebrands, soulbeasts, a condi thief, at least two renegades, a mirage (which I play), sometimes condi berserker. It really depends on the pug sentiments, but I imagine a lot of active raiders have arcdps by now and they can quickly draw the same conclusions.