Conncept.7638 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > > > @Panda.1967 said: > > > > > > > Unfortunately, they are allowed, despite the toxicity their presence creates. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's more a daisy chain of mechanics that required and encouraged toxicity, starting with the absolute horrible design and implementation of raid content. > > > > > > > > > > The daisy chain is starting with people expecting to be carried all the time. > > > > > > > > I present this player and his conduct as Exhibit A in the case proving my point. > > > > > > > > And if I'm incorrect, please show me your proof that all players who do not use a DPS meter expect to be "carried" through content without playing the game correctly. Though good luck proving hyperboly in the first place, let alone factually incorrect hyperbole. > > > > > > > > Because I can, in fact, show you irrefutable proof that raids were designed to have a single method of playing through them, and that is why most players _will_ not, not cannot, comply with their content as it is designed, because this game was advertised, for five years before raids were ever mentioned, as a game in which you could play your way but still be challenged. And raids, are nothing short of compromise, and even purposeful betrayal, on that promised design tenant. > > > > > > > 1. Strawman: I didn't say *every* player who doesn't run a meter expects to get carried. I said the elitism exists because of the players who do. I can also add that the meters are a tool that directly hurt these players, and pretty much them alone. For all the rest they are either beneficial or irrelevant. > > Yes because, "people" doesn't apply to everyone, can't forget our plant, animal, extraterrestrial, and extradimensional playerbase. > > Still strawman, "every" isn't the same "some". > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > 2. Strawman again: nobody said there's a single "method" of playing raids. Apparently you do not understand the purpose of meta. It's to minimize risk. That's all. You wanna play your custom build to have fun? Sure, no problem. Start a group and advertise is properly. Do not expect 9 other people (or 4 others in 5-man content, it's the same) to accept your idea of fun and get along with it. Also, do not expect to get carried either. See above under "elitism". > > That is LITERALLY what meta means in this context! Meta means optimal, there is only one way to comply with this content as per your own words, therefore, meta=single method, by logic so basic our _plant_ and _animal_ playerbase could make the same conclusion. > > "Optimal" doesn't mean "necessary" either. Again, it's about minimizing risk, not meeting a requirement. > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > @Feanor.2358 said:> > 3. It's no longer 2012. Times change, and so do opinions. ANet did a wonderful job in implementing exciting and fun endgame content. Either play it or don't but please spare me the "good ol' times" talk. > > It has nothing to do with "good ol' times', that is something I didn't say, so while we're going over your nonsensical use of fallacies, have you ever heard of hyperbole? > > > > What it has to do with is good design, vs bad. Good design, allows players to figure out a way of complying with the content within the context of the content. Better design, allows for multiple means while still retaining challenge. > > > > Bad design, requires pooling info together until you have a serialized method to be mindlessly repeated over and over again. > > See above. I suggest you actually play some raids before trying to judge their design. Laudy laudy you could not be reaching farther to 180 how badly you destroyed your own argument. "Every" was not the issue with your statement, "person" was, as in you stated that "people" who don't use meters are expecting to get carried, which would mean everyone because that's how English works. And you're purposely ignoring that, because you know you made that blanket statement, and don't care about being correct, but appearing "superior", so apparently elitism doesn't only apply to games. Optimal literally does mean necessary in a case where there is only one method, or please point out to me, how there can be only one single method to complete something, and that isn't the optimal method, given that any other method will fail. And no, I don't need to eat crap to know it tastes bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Conncept.7638 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > > > > @Panda.1967 said: > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, they are allowed, despite the toxicity their presence creates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's more a daisy chain of mechanics that required and encouraged toxicity, starting with the absolute horrible design and implementation of raid content. > > > > > > > > > > > > The daisy chain is starting with people expecting to be carried all the time. > > > > > > > > > > I present this player and his conduct as Exhibit A in the case proving my point. > > > > > > > > > > And if I'm incorrect, please show me your proof that all players who do not use a DPS meter expect to be "carried" through content without playing the game correctly. Though good luck proving hyperboly in the first place, let alone factually incorrect hyperbole. > > > > > > > > > > Because I can, in fact, show you irrefutable proof that raids were designed to have a single method of playing through them, and that is why most players _will_ not, not cannot, comply with their content as it is designed, because this game was advertised, for five years before raids were ever mentioned, as a game in which you could play your way but still be challenged. And raids, are nothing short of compromise, and even purposeful betrayal, on that promised design tenant. > > > > > > > > > > 1. Strawman: I didn't say *every* player who doesn't run a meter expects to get carried. I said the elitism exists because of the players who do. I can also add that the meters are a tool that directly hurt these players, and pretty much them alone. For all the rest they are either beneficial or irrelevant. > > > Yes because, "people" doesn't apply to everyone, can't forget our plant, animal, extraterrestrial, and extradimensional playerbase. > > > > Still strawman, "every" isn't the same "some". > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > 2. Strawman again: nobody said there's a single "method" of playing raids. Apparently you do not understand the purpose of meta. It's to minimize risk. That's all. You wanna play your custom build to have fun? Sure, no problem. Start a group and advertise is properly. Do not expect 9 other people (or 4 others in 5-man content, it's the same) to accept your idea of fun and get along with it. Also, do not expect to get carried either. See above under "elitism". > > > That is LITERALLY what meta means in this context! Meta means optimal, there is only one way to comply with this content as per your own words, therefore, meta=single method, by logic so basic our _plant_ and _animal_ playerbase could make the same conclusion. > > > > "Optimal" doesn't mean "necessary" either. Again, it's about minimizing risk, not meeting a requirement. > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > @Feanor.2358 said:> > 3. It's no longer 2012. Times change, and so do opinions. ANet did a wonderful job in implementing exciting and fun endgame content. Either play it or don't but please spare me the "good ol' times" talk. > > > It has nothing to do with "good ol' times', that is something I didn't say, so while we're going over your nonsensical use of fallacies, have you ever heard of hyperbole? > > > > > > What it has to do with is good design, vs bad. Good design, allows players to figure out a way of complying with the content within the context of the content. Better design, allows for multiple means while still retaining challenge. > > > > > > Bad design, requires pooling info together until you have a serialized method to be mindlessly repeated over and over again. > > > > See above. I suggest you actually play some raids before trying to judge their design. > > Laudy laudy you could not be reaching farther to 180 how badly you destroyed your own argument. Every was not the issue, person was, and you're purposely ignoring that because you know it and don't care about being correct, you care appearing "better", apparently elitism doesn't only apply to games. Optimal literally does mean necessary in a case where there is only one method, or please point out to me how the one method that is optimal, and how it isn't necessary. > > And no, I don't need to eat crap to know it tastes bad. What are you even talking about? How is "person" the problem? Am I to assume that just because someone is a "person" he's entitled to my time, my efforts and ruining my fun? And no, "optimal" doesn't mean "necessary" in any sense or meaning of that word. You can beat the raids without the meta. It has been proven time and again. 10 Scourges against VG are nowhere near the meta, yet they managed. 10 P/P thieves aren't meta, yet they killed Sabetha. You don't need to be optimal to beat them, it has been proven time and again, sometimes in the hilarious way of beating the encounter with half the people it was designed for. Pretty obviously a suboptimal composition. Get your facts right. Oh, I forgot... you don't bother with such trivialities. You already know, and what you know is absolute truth. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Asdasd.6194 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @CptAurellian.9537 said: > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > Because I can, in fact, show you irrefutable proof that raids were designed to have a single method of playing through them [...] > Welcome to MMO raids. This single method is about as old as raids and, in GW2, even more pronounced than usual, since dps>most (actually, mechanics>dps) is based in this game's very DNA. Almost the entire PvE combat gameplay focuses on delivering as much damage as possible, so how exactly do you expect something else? > And it doesnt help that bosses have enrage timers which pushes th "MOARD DPS" mentality even more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconut.7082 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Conncept.7638 said: > > Laudy laudy you could not be reaching farther to 180 how badly you destroyed your own argument. Every was not the issue, person was, and you're purposely ignoring that because you know it and don't care about being correct, you care appearing "better", apparently elitism doesn't only apply to games. Optimal literally does mean necessary in a case where there is only one method, or please point out to me how the one method that is optimal, and how it isn't necessary. > > And no, I don't need to eat crap to know it tastes bad. Still waiting for you to prove this line: > @Conncept.7638 said: >Because I can, in fact, show you irrefutable proof that raids were designed to have a single method of playing through them And please specify what is that "single method", I wan't to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @"Mister Asdasd.6194" said: > > @CptAurellian.9537 said: > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > Because I can, in fact, show you irrefutable proof that raids were designed to have a single method of playing through them [...] > > Welcome to MMO raids. This single method is about as old as raids and, in GW2, even more pronounced than usual, since dps>most (actually, mechanics>dps) is based in this game's very DNA. Almost the entire PvE combat gameplay focuses on delivering as much damage as possible, so how exactly do you expect something else? > > > > And it doesnt help that bosses have enrage timers which pushes th "MOARD DPS" mentality even more Enrage timers are irrelevant. If you hit them, you've seriously fucked up something. Besides, it's not a bad idea to prevent people from cheesing stuff with 10 healer/tank builds, even if I'd never ever try to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda.1967 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > > > > > @Panda.1967 said: > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, they are allowed, despite the toxicity their presence creates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's more a daisy chain of mechanics that required and encouraged toxicity, starting with the absolute horrible design and implementation of raid content. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The daisy chain is starting with people expecting to be carried all the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > I present this player and his conduct as Exhibit A in the case proving my point. > > > > > > > > > > > > And if I'm incorrect, please show me your proof that all players who do not use a DPS meter expect to be "carried" through content without playing the game correctly. Though good luck proving hyperboly in the first place, let alone factually incorrect hyperbole. > > > > > > > > > > > > Because I can, in fact, show you irrefutable proof that raids were designed to have a single method of playing through them, and that is why most players _will_ not, not cannot, comply with their content as it is designed, because this game was advertised, for five years before raids were ever mentioned, as a game in which you could play your way but still be challenged. And raids, are nothing short of compromise, and even purposeful betrayal, on that promised design tenant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Strawman: I didn't say *every* player who doesn't run a meter expects to get carried. I said the elitism exists because of the players who do. I can also add that the meters are a tool that directly hurt these players, and pretty much them alone. For all the rest they are either beneficial or irrelevant. > > > > Yes because, "people" doesn't apply to everyone, can't forget our plant, animal, extraterrestrial, and extradimensional playerbase. > > > > > > Still strawman, "every" isn't the same "some". > > > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > 2. Strawman again: nobody said there's a single "method" of playing raids. Apparently you do not understand the purpose of meta. It's to minimize risk. That's all. You wanna play your custom build to have fun? Sure, no problem. Start a group and advertise is properly. Do not expect 9 other people (or 4 others in 5-man content, it's the same) to accept your idea of fun and get along with it. Also, do not expect to get carried either. See above under "elitism". > > > > That is LITERALLY what meta means in this context! Meta means optimal, there is only one way to comply with this content as per your own words, therefore, meta=single method, by logic so basic our _plant_ and _animal_ playerbase could make the same conclusion. > > > > > > "Optimal" doesn't mean "necessary" either. Again, it's about minimizing risk, not meeting a requirement. > > > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said:> > 3. It's no longer 2012. Times change, and so do opinions. ANet did a wonderful job in implementing exciting and fun endgame content. Either play it or don't but please spare me the "good ol' times" talk. > > > > It has nothing to do with "good ol' times', that is something I didn't say, so while we're going over your nonsensical use of fallacies, have you ever heard of hyperbole? > > > > > > > > What it has to do with is good design, vs bad. Good design, allows players to figure out a way of complying with the content within the context of the content. Better design, allows for multiple means while still retaining challenge. > > > > > > > > Bad design, requires pooling info together until you have a serialized method to be mindlessly repeated over and over again. > > > > > > See above. I suggest you actually play some raids before trying to judge their design. > > > > Laudy laudy you could not be reaching farther to 180 how badly you destroyed your own argument. Every was not the issue, person was, and you're purposely ignoring that because you know it and don't care about being correct, you care appearing "better", apparently elitism doesn't only apply to games. Optimal literally does mean necessary in a case where there is only one method, or please point out to me how the one method that is optimal, and how it isn't necessary. > > > > And no, I don't need to eat crap to know it tastes bad. > > What are you even talking about? How is "person" the problem? Am I to assume that just because someone is a "person" he's entitled to my time, my efforts and ruining my fun? > > And no, "optimal" doesn't mean "necessary" in any sense or meaning of that word. You can beat the raids without the meta. It has been proven time and again. 10 Scourges against VG are nowhere near the meta, yet they managed. 10 P/P thieves aren't meta, yet they killed Sabetha. You don't need to be optimal to beat them, it has been proven time and again, sometimes in the hilarious way of beating the encounter with half the people it was designed for. Pretty obviously a suboptimal composition. Get your facts right. Oh, I forgot... you don't bother with such trivialities. You already know, and what you know is absolute truth. Right? Ya'll two need to end this argument... @"Feanor.2358" your original statement was given in the form of a generalization with an unknown quantity. As with all generalizations, it was taken to mean a large majority if not all. This entire argument between the two of you could have been completely avoided had you simply replied "sorry, I meant 'some people'". Instead you decided to create a problem by crying for strawman arguments where there was none. Conncept's posts in no way intentionally misrepresented your position, as your position from your original reply was poorly stated to begin with and generalized. And the issue devolved from there with both of you bickering back and forth rather than either one of you being the bigger man and admitting to a mistake. @"Conncept.7638" There was no need to continue the argument with Feanor after his response, as out of line as his response may have been. Simply accepting that his stance was poorly represented should have ended the dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syktek.7912 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @Fallesafe.5932 said: > > > @ROMANG.1903 said: > > > I'd like to download arcdps, to see if I'm doing good in fractals. But I'm not sure it's allowed by Anet, can I have some answers? :d > > > > Yes, thank God. They're allowed. Now we have a tool to deal with the toxicity of people who want to be carried. > > In the mean time normal people will 'help' others including weak players rather than carrying them on their meter justified self importance. Flawed arguement. My raid group used a DPS meter and we helped new people all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifwayte.1067 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 I'm glad DPS meters exist. I now see who are getting carried Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finkle.9513 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 Wish they didn't as they only enforce meta builds, and yes i do see the other side of the story. How ever a experienced leader would be able to see if a class was playing well, but all be it not to the precise damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Fallesafe.5932 said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @Fallesafe.5932 said: > > > > @ROMANG.1903 said: > > > > I'd like to download arcdps, to see if I'm doing good in fractals. But I'm not sure it's allowed by Anet, can I have some answers? :d > > > > > > Yes, thank God. They're allowed. Now we have a tool to deal with the toxicity of people who want to be carried. > > > > In the mean time normal people will 'help' others including weak players rather than carrying them on their meter justified self importance. > > My reply was a tongue-in-cheek response to an earlier poster who couldn't just answer the question, but HAD to get her petty little digs in. A lot of folks love to invoke the concept of "toxicity," but absolutely break into hives when it gets turned around on them. There is toxic elitism. But there's also toxic entitlement (PLENTY of it). And they both stink. > @Syktek.7912 said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @Fallesafe.5932 said: > > > > @ROMANG.1903 said: > > > > I'd like to download arcdps, to see if I'm doing good in fractals. But I'm not sure it's allowed by Anet, can I have some answers? :d > > > > > > Yes, thank God. They're allowed. Now we have a tool to deal with the toxicity of people who want to be carried. > > > > In the mean time normal people will 'help' others including weak players rather than carrying them on their meter justified self importance. > > Flawed arguement. My raid group used a DPS meter and we helped new people all the time. Then your not part of the problem which is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahlen.7591 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Cynn.1659 said: > Dps meters are the worst thing that has happened to this game. It was nice and friendly game, where people would help each other, you could play how you want, now how someone wants you to play. This is how you can tell someone didn't play at launch or even the first year. ZERK ONLY, WAR/MESMER ONLY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morte de Angelis.7986 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 People make it sound as if DPS metres changed anything, Anyone remember Dungeons where Rangers + Necros were't allowed? Anyone remember where you weren't allowed in a Dungeon based on your AP? What about if you didn't used a specific skill at a specific time in a Dungeon and then you got kicked cause the leader wouldn't give you a second chance. DPS Meters didn't change anything. If anything they changed things for the better cause at least DPS is a stat that shows some resemble of your skill with a build. Not perfect and nothing will be. DPS meters did nothing for people to stop certain people getting into content, all thats changed in the reason for people to accept you. Wants Legendary Insights got to do with how well I can do Demios? I have over a stack now and barely done Wing 4 cause most of my raid time was done before Wing 4 was realeased. But hey people use it as a barrier to entry. Why does a Ranger who could do similar levels of damage to my Thief not get into a Dungeon simply because of the class and nothing to do with the skill? I wish people would stop bickering about DPS metres. Little kittens will still be kittens all that changes is the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Panda.1967 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > > > > > > @Panda.1967 said: > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, they are allowed, despite the toxicity their presence creates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's more a daisy chain of mechanics that required and encouraged toxicity, starting with the absolute horrible design and implementation of raid content. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The daisy chain is starting with people expecting to be carried all the time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I present this player and his conduct as Exhibit A in the case proving my point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And if I'm incorrect, please show me your proof that all players who do not use a DPS meter expect to be "carried" through content without playing the game correctly. Though good luck proving hyperboly in the first place, let alone factually incorrect hyperbole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because I can, in fact, show you irrefutable proof that raids were designed to have a single method of playing through them, and that is why most players _will_ not, not cannot, comply with their content as it is designed, because this game was advertised, for five years before raids were ever mentioned, as a game in which you could play your way but still be challenged. And raids, are nothing short of compromise, and even purposeful betrayal, on that promised design tenant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Strawman: I didn't say *every* player who doesn't run a meter expects to get carried. I said the elitism exists because of the players who do. I can also add that the meters are a tool that directly hurt these players, and pretty much them alone. For all the rest they are either beneficial or irrelevant. > > > > > Yes because, "people" doesn't apply to everyone, can't forget our plant, animal, extraterrestrial, and extradimensional playerbase. > > > > > > > > Still strawman, "every" isn't the same "some". > > > > > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > 2. Strawman again: nobody said there's a single "method" of playing raids. Apparently you do not understand the purpose of meta. It's to minimize risk. That's all. You wanna play your custom build to have fun? Sure, no problem. Start a group and advertise is properly. Do not expect 9 other people (or 4 others in 5-man content, it's the same) to accept your idea of fun and get along with it. Also, do not expect to get carried either. See above under "elitism". > > > > > That is LITERALLY what meta means in this context! Meta means optimal, there is only one way to comply with this content as per your own words, therefore, meta=single method, by logic so basic our _plant_ and _animal_ playerbase could make the same conclusion. > > > > > > > > "Optimal" doesn't mean "necessary" either. Again, it's about minimizing risk, not meeting a requirement. > > > > > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said:> > 3. It's no longer 2012. Times change, and so do opinions. ANet did a wonderful job in implementing exciting and fun endgame content. Either play it or don't but please spare me the "good ol' times" talk. > > > > > It has nothing to do with "good ol' times', that is something I didn't say, so while we're going over your nonsensical use of fallacies, have you ever heard of hyperbole? > > > > > > > > > > What it has to do with is good design, vs bad. Good design, allows players to figure out a way of complying with the content within the context of the content. Better design, allows for multiple means while still retaining challenge. > > > > > > > > > > Bad design, requires pooling info together until you have a serialized method to be mindlessly repeated over and over again. > > > > > > > > See above. I suggest you actually play some raids before trying to judge their design. > > > > > > Laudy laudy you could not be reaching farther to 180 how badly you destroyed your own argument. Every was not the issue, person was, and you're purposely ignoring that because you know it and don't care about being correct, you care appearing "better", apparently elitism doesn't only apply to games. Optimal literally does mean necessary in a case where there is only one method, or please point out to me how the one method that is optimal, and how it isn't necessary. > > > > > > And no, I don't need to eat crap to know it tastes bad. > > > > What are you even talking about? How is "person" the problem? Am I to assume that just because someone is a "person" he's entitled to my time, my efforts and ruining my fun? > > > > And no, "optimal" doesn't mean "necessary" in any sense or meaning of that word. You can beat the raids without the meta. It has been proven time and again. 10 Scourges against VG are nowhere near the meta, yet they managed. 10 P/P thieves aren't meta, yet they killed Sabetha. You don't need to be optimal to beat them, it has been proven time and again, sometimes in the hilarious way of beating the encounter with half the people it was designed for. Pretty obviously a suboptimal composition. Get your facts right. Oh, I forgot... you don't bother with such trivialities. You already know, and what you know is absolute truth. Right? > > Ya'll two need to end this argument... > > @"Feanor.2358" your original statement was given in the form of a generalization with an unknown quantity. As with all generalizations, it was taken to mean a large majority if not all. This entire argument between the two of you could have been completely avoided had you simply replied "sorry, I meant 'some people'". Instead you decided to create a problem by crying for strawman arguments where there was none. Conncept's posts in no way intentionally misrepresented your position, as your position from your original reply was poorly stated to begin with and generalized. And the issue devolved from there with both of you bickering back and forth rather than either one of you being the bigger man and admitting to a mistake. Honestly I never though someone would read it as anything but "a large majority, if not all, of the specified players - those directly or indirectly *expecting a carry*". I didn't seek a conflict intentionally, it just seemed like someone's misinterpreting my position on purpose to attack it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhanoa.3960 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > Players with DPS Meters are just as TOXIC or even worst! I'f I had tunnel vision I would only see one side of to this story. > > Implying toxicity is unique to people using dps meters. See every thread ever about AB multiloot, Cursed Shore intentionally failing events, Champ trains etc.... > But lets blame the tool not the Tool using it. Another POOR EXCUSE to never lay blame on the player as it was originally initiated, created, distributed, advertised, and encouraged by the player. Optimizing your Profession to perfection is **NOT** a **REQUIREMENT** for purchasing and participating in any form of content within the game, this is create by **THE PLAYER. ** Please show me where exactly ANET advertises this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 My issue isn't with players who do low DPS. It is players who never dodge. Lately in fractals I've been seeing players who don't dodge any attacks, all the while expecting a healer to heal all the damage they would've taken. They don't even check for a healer. They just run in and face tank, then when they die they tantrum and ragequit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhanoa.3960 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > My issue isn't with players who do low DPS. It is players who never dodge. Lately in fractals I've been seeing players who don't dodge any attacks, all the while expecting a healer to heal all the damage they would've taken. They don't even check for a healer. They just run in and face tank, then when they die they tantrum and ragequit. Pretty sure all they are doing is smashing buttons and looking at their DPS Meter the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > Players with DPS Meters are just as TOXIC or even worst! I'f I had tunnel vision I would only see one side of to this story. > > > > Implying toxicity is unique to people using dps meters. See every thread ever about AB multiloot, Cursed Shore intentionally failing events, Champ trains etc.... > > But lets blame the tool not the Tool using it. > > Another POOR EXCUSE to never lay blame on the player as it was originally initiated, created, distributed, advertised, and encouraged by the player. > > Optimizing your Profession to perfection is **NOT** a **REQUIREMENT** for purchasing and participating in any form of content within the game, this is create by **THE PLAYER. ** > Please show me where exactly ANET advertises this? Reading comprehension.... You cannot seriously blame DPS meters when the behavior existed even without them being in this game to begin with. Toxicity isn't limited to a subset of people who use a program, it exist regardless of that. Not even sure what the lower half of your tangent is about. It's already been proven beaten to death and laid to rest that the meta is not a requirement for average clears but is however a safeguard against dealing with additional problems that could arise in a 10 person group by having people work together in an optimal manner to achieve a goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loken.7684 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Conncept.7638 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > > > > > @Panda.1967 said: > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, they are allowed, despite the toxicity their presence creates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's more a daisy chain of mechanics that required and encouraged toxicity, starting with the absolute horrible design and implementation of raid content. > > > > > > > > > > > > The daisy chain is starting with people expecting to be carried all the time. > > > > > > > > > > I present this player and his conduct as Exhibit A in the case proving my point. > > > > > > > > > > And if I'm incorrect, please show me your proof that all players who do not use a DPS meter expect to be "carried" through content without playing the game correctly. Though good luck proving hyperboly in the first place, let alone factually incorrect hyperbole. > > > > > > > > > > Because I can, in fact, show you irrefutable proof that raids were designed to have a single method of playing through them, and that is why most players _will_ not, not cannot, comply with their content as it is designed, because this game was advertised, for five years before raids were ever mentioned, as a game in which you could play your way but still be challenged. And raids, are nothing short of compromise, and even purposeful betrayal, on that promised design tenant. > > > > > > > > > > 1. Strawman: I didn't say *every* player who doesn't run a meter expects to get carried. I said the elitism exists because of the players who do. I can also add that the meters are a tool that directly hurt these players, and pretty much them alone. For all the rest they are either beneficial or irrelevant. > > > Yes because, "people" doesn't apply to everyone, can't forget our plant, animal, extraterrestrial, and extradimensional playerbase. > > > > Still strawman, "every" isn't the same "some". > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > 2. Strawman again: nobody said there's a single "method" of playing raids. Apparently you do not understand the purpose of meta. It's to minimize risk. That's all. You wanna play your custom build to have fun? Sure, no problem. Start a group and advertise is properly. Do not expect 9 other people (or 4 others in 5-man content, it's the same) to accept your idea of fun and get along with it. Also, do not expect to get carried either. See above under "elitism". > > > That is LITERALLY what meta means in this context! Meta means optimal, there is only one way to comply with this content as per your own words, therefore, meta=single method, by logic so basic our _plant_ and _animal_ playerbase could make the same conclusion. > > > > "Optimal" doesn't mean "necessary" either. Again, it's about minimizing risk, not meeting a requirement. > > > > > @Conncept.7638 said: > > > > @Feanor.2358 said:> > 3. It's no longer 2012. Times change, and so do opinions. ANet did a wonderful job in implementing exciting and fun endgame content. Either play it or don't but please spare me the "good ol' times" talk. > > > It has nothing to do with "good ol' times', that is something I didn't say, so while we're going over your nonsensical use of fallacies, have you ever heard of hyperbole? > > > > > > What it has to do with is good design, vs bad. Good design, allows players to figure out a way of complying with the content within the context of the content. Better design, allows for multiple means while still retaining challenge. > > > > > > Bad design, requires pooling info together until you have a serialized method to be mindlessly repeated over and over again. > > > > See above. I suggest you actually play some raids before trying to judge their design. > > Laudy laudy you could not be reaching farther to 180 how badly you destroyed your own argument. > > "Every" was not the issue with your statement, "person" was, as in you stated that "people" who don't use meters are expecting to get carried, which would mean everyone because that's how English works. And you're purposely ignoring that, because you know you made that blanket statement, and don't care about being correct, but appearing "superior", so apparently elitism doesn't only apply to games. > > Optimal literally does mean necessary in a case where there is only one method, or please point out to me, how there can be only one single method to complete something, and that isn't the optimal method, given that any other method will fail. > > And no, I don't need to eat crap to know it tastes bad. You're completely delusional mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Hare.8612 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > My issue isn't with players who do low DPS. It is players who never dodge. Lately in fractals I've been seeing players who don't dodge any attacks, all the while expecting a healer to heal all the damage they would've taken. They don't even check for a healer. They just run in and face tank, then when they die they tantrum and ragequit. If I'm not totally mistaken, you can use arcdps to see how many dodges ppl have used. You can also see how much damage a certain person is taking and has taken. It also provides other interesting stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhanoa.3960 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > > Players with DPS Meters are just as TOXIC or even worst! I'f I had tunnel vision I would only see one side of to this story. > > > > > > Implying toxicity is unique to people using dps meters. See every thread ever about AB multiloot, Cursed Shore intentionally failing events, Champ trains etc.... > > > But lets blame the tool not the Tool using it. > > > > Another POOR EXCUSE to never lay blame on the player as it was originally initiated, created, distributed, advertised, and encouraged by the player. > > > > Optimizing your Profession to perfection is **NOT** a **REQUIREMENT** for purchasing and participating in any form of content within the game, this is create by **THE PLAYER. ** > > Please show me where exactly ANET advertises this? > > Reading comprehension.... > > You cannot seriously blame DPS meters when the behavior existed even without them being in this game to begin with. Toxicity isn't limited to a subset of people who use a program, it exist regardless of that. > > Not even sure what the lower half of your tangent is about. It's already been proven beaten to death and laid to rest that the meta is not a requirement for average clears but is however a safeguard against dealing with additional problems that could arise in a 10 person group by having people work together in an optimal manner to achieve a goal. I never limited to one type of group, it was simply left out and I acknowledge it. Maybe you should go back and take your own advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > My issue isn't with players who do low DPS. It is players who never dodge. Lately in fractals I've been seeing players who don't dodge any attacks, all the while expecting a healer to heal all the damage they would've taken. They don't even check for a healer. They just run in and face tank, then when they die they tantrum and ragequit. Joining a non-meta party and expecting meta tactics. That's equally silly. But yeah... when you go meta one of the things you need to learn it to NOT dodge. Trust in healing, distortions, etc, and just keep your dps flowing. But of course it doesn't work if the rest of the party doesn't do what is needed to support that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinroh.4251 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Much like FF XIV, they are 'allowed' but break the spirit of the game. I believe it was said that they don't endorse it but they don't also do anything to anyone who uses. The only difference I found between GW 2 and FF XIV, is if a person is a jerk with the DPS meter, the GMs in FF XIV will give a warning to the abuser since they are 'harassing' a players play style. Here the GMs won't do much unless it affects the actual game itself (ie blatant hacking, making you invincible etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoarChaos.8320 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Every time this pops up it's still so jarring seeing the side against the dps meters act much more toxic then the side that uses them. I don't use them, because I'm currently too lazy to download it, and then use it to see how I'm doing. However that doesn't excuse all the people assuming the worst of the people that use them. Of course the crappy elitists exist, but they shouldn't influence your decisions, and what you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Elitism in PvE is funny. It's PvE and a research team in China have successfully taught chimps to raid in MMO's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 The level of entitlement some PvPers display is even more funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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