About mirage mesmer and condi thieves

[Alatar.7364]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> >**its evassivness is it's one and only defense with occasional use of one time mobility to run away. DD doesn't have bloated defense with blocks/invul/protection spam/aegis/ALSO super high evade uptime/also mobility all in one kit like Mirage does**, so it better kitten keep higher evade uptime than all other professions.

>

> So Thieves didn't have blocks, and blinds on top of the evasion along with either being being able to engage and disengage at will with teleports, or had perma stealth? The last two something mesmer could not do? (and was far superior to a mechanic like illusions)

 

 

Thieves don't have blocks, DD does and it is on more than twice the CD and twice lower block duration than the one used by Mirage. Mirage always had more blinds than thief and I do not consider Stealth to be defense, but rather utility, that's why I didn't mention Blinds nor Stealth as Defense in Mirage kit either, it would be hypocritical to say Thief has Stealth or Blinds as defense but Mirage doesn't even though Mirage has access to all of those.

 

> not saying DD shouldn't have more, but it's disingenuous to complain about mirage's evasion who then at least in terms of power builds had to line up something significantly less safe and less widely than a backstab, or dance around sword. You also say "all in one kit", for Thief a lot of defensive options came from weapons. I'd call that more "all in one kit" than Mes scrounging form 3 different lines

 

I am not complaining about Mirage evassivnes, I am saying that DD is simply supposed to have more.

About the Weapons, the defensive options are once more Evasion for the most part, I'd rather have more viable Utility options _(which thief is completely locked in to)_ than having to rely on something that consumes a resource for both weapon sets and thus can't just swap weapons and continue fighting, which brings us back to the current Mirage's build with 8-second CD 2sec Duration block that spawns clones vs DDs 20-second CD 1.5 sec Duration block _(which is irrelevant because at the moment no meta DD build even exists and the old D/P does not use it)_, so Mesmer/Mirage is definitely on the good side too when it comes to defense incorporated in weapons, especially when you consider that Thief uses Initiative to deal dmg/evade etc. and thats it, it just gets consumed, while Mesmer weapon skills do the same only on top of that they also generate resource to use other mechanics like Shatters or simple continuos dmg/condi apllication or Trait-benefits tied to number of clones, I am not complaining about that, just saying that Mesmer weapon skills are very much no-worse than thieves.

 

>

> > Not to mention that almost since release, Thief and all of its specs were fulfilling only one role, unlike Mirage who was able to fill in all existing roles except Support, all in one kit, so it had to get nerfed "hard", there was no excuse for it not to get nerfed hard and yet as you can see, even after those nerfs, it is still a go to profession for majority _(sorry for what I am about to use)_ of the sheep "players".

>

> Since release Mesmer was replaced by thief up until HoT, and was only taken for Portal and TimeWarp, both taken for the team. After S1 Chronobunk was nerfed it was condi mes mostly taken for Portal and double Moa. I don't know how that's "filling every roll"

>

 

I hope you are not intentionally misinterpreting what I said, I **never** said that Mesmer filled all the roles, I said **Mirage did** and that is undeniable truth.

I agree about the Anet nerfing wrong stuff, but Mirages survivabiltty was also far too great considered that even on defense it applied great pressure so I am glad that some of it got nerfed.

 

 

[praqtos.9035]

Didnt want to comment but heh ...

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> Thieves don't have blocks, DD does and it is on more than twice the CD and twice lower block duration than the one used by Mirage.

Obviously speaking about cmirage, CI mirage ? Probably mean scepter2 that is blocking one attack... dont seems like you know it.Lets educate you : blocking 1 attack with follow up 0.5s evade =/= 1.5s blocking.

 

> Mirage always had more blinds than thief and I do not consider Stealth to be defense, but rather utility, that's why I didn't mention Blinds nor Stealth as Defense in Mirage kit either, it would be hypocritical to say Thief has Stealth or Blinds as defense but Mirage doesn't even though Mirage has access to all of those.

Hmmmm, no. Thief always had more. Old blind shatter was once per 12/24/38/50 seconds. Now this trait is dead asf.. How many times d/p could blind you? Far more often.

Stealth is a defense, a lot of skills need a target and you cant know where did they go, especially thieves that can chain it and you had to guess where is he and if he is stealthing somewhere in the corner to decap as soon as you go. Forgot the time of PU being 100%? The moans... Because mesmer had the stealth uptime compared to thieves.

> I am not complaining about Mirage evassivnes, I am saying that DD is simply supposed to have more.

There is only weaver who rival in that and mesmer is no way near. So what the point...I'm missing something?

> Mirage's build with 8-second CD 2sec Duration block that spawns clones

You are making the same mistake, said above about scepter 2.

>just saying that Mesmer weapon skills are very much no-worse than thieves.

Spammable evades =/= evades on the cooldown. Spammable evades ->>>>>>>>>>>0.5-1s evade on 8-15 seconds cd *that is undeniable truth*.

> I hope you are not intentionally misinterpreting what I said, I **never** said that Mesmer filled all the roles, I said **Mirage did** and that is undeniable truth.

What roles? Dueling/outnumbering = all roles? Still does the same iirc.

[alain.1659]

What I shockingly discovered that so many people are oblivious about the "previous target" in the keybind section of options. That is the number one requirement to deal with any kind of mesmer or thief.

[Alatar.7364]

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > Thieves don't have blocks, DD does and it is on more than twice the CD and twice lower block duration than the one used by Mirage.

> Obviously speaking about cmirage, CI mirage ? Probably mean scepter2 that is blocking one attack... dont seems like you know it.Lets educate you : blocking 1 attack with follow up 0.5s evade =/= 1.5s blocking.

>

 

Point was not how many attack it blocks, point is it is 8sec CD block on a weapon skill vs 20sec CD block on utility, I'd take Block incorporated in Weapon any day over BD to have a free utillity slot and am pretty sure quite a few people would agree. Even if it blocks one attack _(and has an evade, and spawns clones, does direct dmg and applies condi)_ it still is mere 8sec CD.

 

> > Mirage always had more blinds than thief and I do not consider Stealth to be defense, but rather utility, that's why I didn't mention Blinds nor Stealth as Defense in Mirage kit either, it would be hypocritical to say Thief has Stealth or Blinds as defense but Mirage doesn't even though Mirage has access to all of those.

> Hmmmm, no. Thief always had more. Old blind shatter was once per 12/24/38/50 seconds. Now this trait is dead asf.. How many times d/p could blind you? Far more often.

 

You speaks about education and follow with multiple factual mistakes, read.

Old blind shatter was, 10/22/32/42 and torch with 24 + Blind whenever you interrupted, now each clone blinded on its own so Mirage could blind a beautiful 12 times + 1 from torch + more any time it interrupted, which kind of makes up for more blinds than the 3 blinds _(4 if you waited for the last ini)_ thief could use before running out of Ini _(locking itself out of very single weapon skill on both weapon sets)_ and instantly dying because of it, so if Mirage was not dumb and actually shattered carefully it not only had more blinds but it would also not mean its certain death unlike it did for Thief.

 

 

 

> Stealth is a defense, a lot of skills need a target and you cant know where did they go, especially thieves that can chain it and you had to guess where is he and **if he is stealthing somewhere in the corner to decap** as soon as you go. Forgot the time of PU being 100%? The moans... Because mesmer had the stealth uptime compared to thieves.

 

The part I "bolded" out is the reason why Stealth is utility, most skills actually don't require a target _(coincidentally most Mirage skills do require it)_, try to fight someone as a thief and then use Stealth as a defense in a way you'd have to use block or evade. It simply is not possible, you will still take the dmg, you will still be suspectible to all the condi, etc. Stealth can only be used somewhat defensively if you already managed to get away from the opponent which alone for thief ment you got **** and Stealth is not gonna make you win that fight, it was, however, true for DE. In current Meta there is no Thief build that can chain it, as I said D/P is not meta anymore and even d/p could not chain it as its Ini ran out faster than the stealth duration so similar to the blinds of D/P it would also just waste all of thief Ini and kill the thief as a result.

However I intentionally didn't list Stealth as defensive measure for Mirage just as I didn't list it for Thief for those reasons, so I don't see why are we arguing about it since it is irrelevant.

 

> > I am not complaining about Mirage evassivnes, I am saying that DD is simply supposed to have more.

> There is only weaver who rival in that and mesmer is no way near. So what the point...I'm missing something?

 

Yes, you are likely missing something because I don't see how was your reply to that post relevant. What does Weaver have to do with Thief having more evades than Mirage? I am going to go ahead and guess that same as the other person you are missing the point that I am saying it is a good thing DD has more evades than Mirage and am **NOT** saying that DD has less evades than Mirage but should have more.

 

> > Mirage's build with 8-second CD 2sec Duration block that spawns clones

> You are making the same mistake, said above about scepter 2.

 

I am not, it is a 2 sec duration, doesn't speak of attacks blocked which is not even the point, hence what I wrote in the first reply to you.

 

> >just saying that Mesmer weapon skills are very much no-worse than thieves.

> Spammable evades =/= evades on the cooldown. Spammable evades ->>>>>>>>>>>0.5-1s evade on 8-15 seconds cd *that is undeniable truth*.

 

Again, Evades are Thief only defense with occasional use of one-time mobility to run away. 3x Evade on sword _(assuming you didn't hit anything then it is just 1 evade)_ and 3x evade if on Staff is no worse or better than what Mirage can do with its Weapon skills. You keep invoking the _"spammable"_ argument as some holy commandment while the truth is, if thief **actually** spammed it then it is completely and utterly dead. Thief MUST NOT spam anything unless he is just gonna get absolutely KO'ed, you are completely wrongly assuming that just because Thief has **the option** to spam something then it is a good and effective thing to do, there is **nothing** that kills thief faster than if he actually decided to use that option and spam any of those. Hence why I mentioned that the older Mirage build didn't have to spam to have more blinds than D/P thief while D/P thief in order to have multiple blinds had to commit sepuku and then during a respawn screen was like "oh, at least I used 3 blinds".

 

> > I hope you are not intentionally misinterpreting what I said, I **never** said that Mesmer filled all the roles, I said **Mirage did** and that is undeniable truth.

> What roles? Dueling/outnumbering = all roles? Still does the same iirc.

 

Duelist, Roamer, Team-fighter/DPS and Support those are the roles of Conquest, so since I said _"Mirage performed all the roles except Support"_ then it did perform All the roles except support just as I said. That you just pick two roles out of four and completely misinterpret what I said is not my problem nor is it your valid argument.

 

 

 

[Alatar.7364]

> @"alain.1659" said:

> What I shockingly discovered that so many people are oblivious about the "previous target" in the keybind section of options. That is the number one requirement to deal with any kind of mesmer or thief.

 

People keep saying that _(and possibly it is true for them)_ but for me whenever I used that Key-bind it **never** _(ever ever ever ever ever ever)_ targeted the real mesmer and I am not alone in this "Bug".

[praqtos.9035]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > Thieves don't have blocks, DD does and it is on more than twice the CD and twice lower block duration than the one used by Mirage.

> > Obviously speaking about cmirage, CI mirage ? Probably mean scepter2 that is blocking one attack... dont seems like you know it.Lets educate you : blocking 1 attack with follow up 0.5s evade =/= 1.5s blocking.

> >

>

> Point was not how many attack it blocks, point is it is 8sec CD block on a weapon skill vs 20sec CD block on utility, I'd take Block incorporated in Weapon any day over BD to have a free utillity slot and am pretty sure quite a few people would agree. Even if it blocks one attack _(and has an evade, and spawns clones, does direct dmg and applies condi)_ it still is mere 8sec CD.

Ok, now lets scold guardians for having mace, warriors for having block on their weapons ?

> > > Mirage always had more blinds than thief and I do not consider Stealth to be defense, but rather utility, that's why I didn't mention Blinds nor Stealth as Defense in Mirage kit either, it would be hypocritical to say Thief has Stealth or Blinds as defense but Mirage doesn't even though Mirage has access to all of those.

> > Hmmmm, no. Thief always had more. Old blind shatter was once per 12/24/38/50 seconds. Now this trait is dead asf.. How many times d/p could blind you? Far more often.

> You speaks about education and follow with multiple factual mistakes, read.

> Old blind shatter was, 10/22/32/42 and torch with 24 + Blind whenever you interrupted, now each clone blinded on its own so Mirage could blind a beautiful 12 times + 1 from torch + more any time it interrupted, which kind of makes up for more blinds than the 3 blinds _(4 if you waited for the last ini)_ thief could use before running out of Ini _(locking itself out of very single weapon skill on both weapon sets)_ and instantly dying because of it, so if Mirage was not dumb and actually shattered carefully it not only had more blinds but it would also not mean its certain death unlike it did for Thief.

I didnt count trait that reduce shaters as I keep in mind illusions arent taken in favor of chaos or power variation with dueling/domi. Educate yourself now about mesmer traitlines/CD's as you never been counting your Bandit's defense old 15/12s traited cooldown, weird u didnt talk about scepter traited. Its hard to understand what build or timeline you are talking about tbh.

12 BLINDS????????????????????????????? Damn some strong weed there.

So you say "thief cant spam it so he will die". So shattering all cooldowns into nowhere just to blind was a great idea to be left without any shatter as well?

 

> > Stealth is a defense, a lot of skills need a target and you cant know where did they go, especially thieves that can chain it and you had to guess where is he and **if he is stealthing somewhere in the corner to decap** as soon as you go. Forgot the time of PU being 100%? The moans... Because mesmer had the stealth uptime compared to thieves.

>

> The part I "bolded" out is the reason why Stealth is utility, most skills actually don't require a target _(coincidentally most Mirage skills do require it)_, try to fight someone as a thief and then use Stealth as a defense in a way you'd had to use block or evade. It simply is not possible, you will still take the dmg, you will still be suspectible to all the condi, etc. Stealth can only be used somewhat defensively if you already managed to get away from the opponent which alone for thief ment you got **** and Stealth is not gonna make you win that fight, it was, however, true for DE. In current Meta there is Thief build that can chain it, as I said D/P is not meta anymore and even d/p could not chain it as its Ini ran out faster than the stealth duration so similar to the blinds of D/P it would also just waste all of thief Ini and kill the thief as a result.

> However I intentionally didn't list Stealth as defensive measure for Mirage just as I didn't list it for Thief for those reasons, so I don't see why are we arguing about it since it is irrelevant.

More like my opinion, its pretty defensive measure as well helps to stop focus fire and gain some distance, never said its just as same as block/evade. Just remember good old times.

> > > I am not complaining about Mirage evassivnes, I am saying that DD is simply supposed to have more.

> > There is only weaver who rival in that and mesmer is no way near. So what the point...I'm missing something?

>

> Yes, you are likely missing something because I don't see how was your reply to that post relevant. What does Weaver have to do with Thief having more evades than Mirage? I am going to go ahead and guess that same as the other person you are missing the point that I am saying it is a good thing DD has more evades than Mirage and am **NOT** saying that DD has less evades than Mirage but should have more.

>

> > > Mirage's build with 8-second CD 2sec Duration block that spawns clones

> > You are making the same mistake, said above about scepter 2.

>

> I am not, it is a 2 sec duration, doesn't speak of attacks blocked which is not even the point, hence what I wrote in the first reply to you.

>

> > >just saying that Mesmer weapon skills are very much no-worse than thieves.

> > Spammable evades =/= evades on the cooldown. Spammable evades ->>>>>>>>>>>0.5-1s evade on 8-15 seconds cd *that is undeniable truth*.

>

> Again, Evades are Thief only defense with occasional use of one-time mobility to run away. 3x Evade on sword _(assuming you didn't hit anything then it is just 1 evade)_ and 3x evade if on Staff is no worse or better than what Mirage can do with its Weapon skills. You keep invoking the _"spammable"_ argument as some holy commandment while the truth is, if thief **actually** spammed it then it is completely and utterly dead. Thief MUST NOT spam anything unless he is just gonna get absolutely KO'ed, you are completely wrongly assuming that just because Thief has **the option** to spam something then it is a good and effective thing to do, there is **nothing** that kills thief faster than if he actually decided to use that option and spam any of those. Hence why I mentioned that the older Mirage build didn't have to spam to have more blinds than D/P thief while D/P thief in order to have multiple blinds had to commit sepuku and then during a respawn screen was like "oh, at least I used 3 blinds".

I wish this "evade spam" would be just an exaggeration but when thief hold the node for 10+ seconds against 3 people(was an AT) alone without taking any damage thats makes you think something is clearly dumb is happening right under your nose and SPOILERSSSSS he just shadowstepped away as soon ran out from cds.

Ye I heard yo story, 12 blinds + torch + interrupts + some weed. Great.

 

> > > I hope you are not intentionally misinterpreting what I said, I **never** said that Mesmer filled all the roles, I said **Mirage did** and that is undeniable truth.

> > What roles? Dueling/outnumbering = all roles? Still does the same iirc.

>

> Duelist, Roamer, Team-fighter/DPS and Support those are the roles of Conquest, so since I said _"Mirage performed all the roles except Support"_ then it did perform All the roles except support just as I said. That did you just pick two roles out of four and completely misinterpret what I said is not my problem nor is it your valid argument.

Mirage good at TEAMFIGHTS?! Oh boy... Actually ye, you can believe in whatever you want, that wont make your "argument" valid, like this 12 +++ blinds.

Ah ye, i'm ignorant for arguing with you... gotta fix it

[Alatar.7364]

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > Point was not how many attack it blocks, point is it is 8sec CD block on a weapon skill vs 20sec CD block on utility, I'd take Block incorporated in Weapon any day over BD to have a free utillity slot and am pretty sure quite a few people would agree. Even if it blocks one attack _(and has an evade, and spawns clones, does direct dmg and applies condi)_ it still is mere 8sec CD.

> Ok, now lets scold guardians for having mace, warriors for having block on their weapons ?

 

I never scolded that, you are the one who is trying to make it sound this way, I merely said it is a very good skill to have.

 

> > You speaks about education and follow with multiple factual mistakes, read.

> > Old blind shatter was, 10/22/32/42 and torch with 24 + Blind whenever you interrupted, now each clone blinded on its own so Mirage could blind a beautiful 12 times + 1 from torch + more any time it interrupted, which kind of makes up for more blinds than the 3 blinds _(4 if you waited for the last ini)_ thief could use before running out of Ini _(locking itself out of very single weapon skill on both weapon sets)_ and instantly dying because of it, so if Mirage was not dumb and actually shattered carefully it not only had more blinds but it would also not mean its certain death unlike it did for Thief.

> I didnt count trait that reduce shaters as I keep in mind illusions arent taken in favor of chaos or power variation with dueling/domi. Educate yourself now about mesmer traitlines/CD's as you never been counting your Bandit's defense old 15/12s traited cooldown, weird u didnt talk about scepter traited. Its hard to understand what build or timeline you are talking about tbh.

> 12 BLINDS????????????????????????????? kitten some strong weed there.

> So you say "thief cant spam it so he will die". So shattering all cooldowns into nowhere just to blind was a great idea to be left without any shatter as well?

>

 

You were the one to start talking about the old Mirage build not me and the old build **did use shatter CD reduction** so why are you now pretending you were talking about something else, I did not count in BD old CD because that was nerfed **november 2017** which is before the build **you** mentioned even existed and in case I am wrong and it did already exist then the BD was nerfed for 90% of that Mirages build existence. Not to mention that the trait that reduces BD CD is not only no longer taken but it is also not present in Meta build and on top of that **was not taken EVEN AT THE TIME IT WAS META**, unlike the Scepter whos CD is 8 second by default NOT by Trait, because that trait is in a line that current Mirage build does not use, so something tells me you are the one that seriously needs to educate yourself on builds.

 

_"So shattering all cooldowns in to nowhere"_ once **again** that is what YOU are assuming and saying, I **explicitly** mentioned that Mirage didn't have to spam it and still achieve more blinds than Thief, you once again keep ignoring/misinterpreting what I said, also that it could do 12 blinds is a simple fact.

 

> >

> > The part I "bolded" out is the reason why Stealth is utility, most skills actually don't require a target _(coincidentally most Mirage skills do require it)_, try to fight someone as a thief and then use Stealth as a defense in a way you'd had to use block or evade. It simply is not possible, you will still take the dmg, you will still be suspectible to all the condi, etc. Stealth can only be used somewhat defensively if you already managed to get away from the opponent which alone for thief ment you got **** and Stealth is not gonna make you win that fight, it was, however, true for DE. In current Meta there is Thief build that can chain it, as I said D/P is not meta anymore and even d/p could not chain it as its Ini ran out faster than the stealth duration so similar to the blinds of D/P it would also just waste all of thief Ini and kill the thief as a result.

> > However I intentionally didn't list Stealth as defensive measure for Mirage just as I didn't list it for Thief for those reasons, so I don't see why are we arguing about it since it is irrelevant.

>More like my opinion, its pretty defensive measure as well helps to stop focus fire and gain some distance, never said its just as same as block/evade. Just remember good old times.

>

> > Again, Evades are Thief only defense with occasional use of one-time mobility to run away. 3x Evade on sword _(assuming you didn't hit anything then it is just 1 evade)_ and 3x evade if on Staff is no worse or better than what Mirage can do with its Weapon skills. You keep invoking the _"spammable"_ argument as some holy commandment while the truth is, if thief **actually** spammed it then it is completely and utterly dead. Thief MUST NOT spam anything unless he is just gonna get absolutely KO'ed, you are completely wrongly assuming that just because Thief has **the option** to spam something then it is a good and effective thing to do, there is **nothing** that kills thief faster than if he actually decided to use that option and spam any of those. Hence why I mentioned that the older Mirage build didn't have to spam to have more blinds than D/P thief while D/P thief in order to have multiple blinds had to commit sepuku and then during a respawn screen was like "oh, at least I used 3 blinds".

> I wish this "evade spam" would be just an exaggeration but when thief hold the node for 10+ seconds against 3 people(was an AT) alone without taking any damage thats makes you think something is clearly dumb is happening right under your nose and SPOILERSSSSS he just shadowstepped away as soon ran out from cds.

 

But this is exactly what I am telling you, if the Thief spammed it then it took only mere 10 seconds for thief to be forced to **COMPLETELY** abandon the fight, which is **also** something I didn't deny that it can use shadowstep to run away which equals the same as if you winning the fight. Imagine if DrD did not have those dodges _(which is only thing that Trait-line focuses on)_ it would be same thras tier as Core Ele, right now it is fair because it is so simple/gimmick gameplay that doesn't offer anything except short-time trolling.

 

>

> > Duelist, Roamer, Team-fighter/DPS and Support those are the roles of Conquest, so since I said _"Mirage performed all the roles except Support"_ then it did perform All the roles except support just as I said. That did you just pick two roles out of four and completely misinterpret what I said is not my problem nor is it your valid argument.

> Mirage good at TEAMFIGHTS?! Oh boy... Actually ye, you can believe in whatever you want, that wont make your "argument" valid, like this 12 +++ blinds.

 

More like you can believe what you want, judging from your lack of information about builds, even one known Mirage-main insisted the build was good at Teamfighting.

 

I am not sure why you decided to dig in the past, in posts with the other person we talked about something that exists now, not only you started bringing in old state/builds of Mirage, you also failed at informing yourself about what they used and how they worked, so let us stop this conversation for good, it is already spam as is.

 

 

[Solori.6025]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

>

> > This is some serious _Miragesplaining™_. To call their vigor uptime low and compare their evades to necro is beyond ludicrous. Makes me question the legitimacy, even.

> > 5s from False Oasis

> > 5s From critical infusion(Here we've already matched bountiful theft in duration, and this comes from two different sources rather than just one)

> > 5s With Chaotic Interruption RNG(No internal CD btw) or 8s Guaranteed with Bountiful Disillusionment

> > 12s max with Nomad's Endurance

> >

> > They actually have some of, if not the very highest vigor uptime in the current meta, surpassed only by Holo/Engi(Maybe? Probably not, in all honesty.)

> >

> > Scepter 2 not only blocks, but has evade frames as well.

> > I'll be modest and go along with you not counting Distortion, even though at one point in the game's history it literally counted as evades rather than invulns.

> >

> > On top of all that, they get mirrors like you say; which essentially act as an extra dodge, because even if it's being used offensively; it still grants evades to you and the other 3 yous. They also, as mentioned before; can use their evades in situations where DD's couldn't. And personally I don't see the use in dodges being "more mobile" when they are being used offensively as well as defensively. That seems like a completely contrived excuse.

> >

> > **So yeah, even with DD's 3 endurance bars, crazy refill, and evades tied to skills, i'm no less convinced they can't not manage to evade more than CI Mirages.**

>

> Bold statement is flat out wrong. Back around season 9 - 12 players calculated the evasion/block/invuln uptime between mirage and DD including vigor.

> DD had more, and this was BEFORE the nerfs. Even if DD was to lose out, DD still had more on demand evasion compared to Mirage's uptime, a lot of it btw being tied to things like Mirrors, which I'll get to. Try to remember that was with the increased evade duration on mirage cloak

>

> I'm not going to count random instances of RNG, you could hypotethically steal a boon and get it. Besides power builds don't typically go down Chaos line.

>

> so 5s from False Oasis

> 5s from Critical infusion

Because this tells me you went to the wiki and didn't bother to actually read the skill.

 

Critical infusion gives 3 seconds of vigor not 5

 

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> Critical Infusion is 3sec

> Nomads is 1.5 sec per shatter

> CI random proc is 5sec

> False oasis 5sec

>

> Most importantly, you've to spec 3 traits dedicated to vigor.

> More than half of professions can attain perma-vigor with 1 or 2 traits.

>

> So yeah, complaining about "evade spam" on mirage is dumb. But whatever, still the same tactic as ever, tell a lie 1000 times so it becomes a truth.

 

^ Quoting pve numbers to paint a false picture, like lincoln said. it's dumb, and we have had this conversation 1000 times over where we have had to correct the blatant lie because people just hate mesmer.

This is why nothing that needs fixing ever gets fixed. Because of people that just cry for no reason, quote misinformation, then try and defend lies as facts.

[Kondor.2904]

Just my two cents here.

Mesmer could not do 12 blinds when spamming all shatters (which technically would have been 16+, since mesmer counts as an illusion). Blinds were inflicted by the mesmer himself in melee range only, not by illusions. The current trait inflicts blind per illusion, not the old one. So it was 1 blind per shatter, 4 blinds in total. (5 if you had ineptitude traited and got a rupt from f3)

[Vicariuz.1605]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> The hell?

> D/D Condi is miraculously back **after** a patch that reduced its effectiveness and was already not used at all for a very long time? That doesn't make sense to me, and I didn't meet a single one in literally over a year.

 

seems you are often out of the loop. he most likely is not referencing d/d condi thief, he's talking about s/d condi dd, which is very strong in queue right now.

 

whats the percentage of people on this forum that are like up to date and play?

[Alatar.7364]

> @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > The hell?

> > D/D Condi is miraculously back **after** a patch that reduced its effectiveness and was already not used at all for a very long time? That doesn't make sense to me, and I didn't meet a single one in literally over a year.

>

> seems you are often out of the loop. he most likely is not referencing d/d condi thief, he's talking about s/d condi dd, which is very strong in queue right now.

>

> whats the percentage of people on this forum that are like up to date and play?

 

_"They can passively spam condi's while evading. Remove this. Either you evade or you deal condi's. Not both."_

Because of this I know he ment D/D, because noone could possibly ask for removig evade frames from an evade skill to compensate from a fact that it deals condi dmg, hence it musth have been about DB hence it must have been about D/D.

The S/D you are talking about was not even on Metabattle site that day.

[Vicariuz.1605]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > The hell?

> > > D/D Condi is miraculously back **after** a patch that reduced its effectiveness and was already not used at all for a very long time? That doesn't make sense to me, and I didn't meet a single one in literally over a year.

> >

> > seems you are often out of the loop. he most likely is not referencing d/d condi thief, he's talking about s/d condi dd, which is very strong in queue right now.

> >

> > whats the percentage of people on this forum that are like up to date and play?

>

> _"They can passively spam condi's while evading. Remove this. Either you evade or you deal condi's. Not both."_

> Because of this I know he ment D/D, because noone could possibly ask for removig evade frames from an evade skill to compensate from a fact that it deals condi dmg, hence it musth have been about DB hence it must have been about D/D.

> The S/D you are talking about was not even on Metabattle site that day.

 

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > The hell?

> > > D/D Condi is miraculously back **after** a patch that reduced its effectiveness and was already not used at all for a very long time? That doesn't make sense to me, and I didn't meet a single one in literally over a year.

> >

> > seems you are often out of the loop. he most likely is not referencing d/d condi thief, he's talking about s/d condi dd, which is very strong in queue right now.

> >

> > whats the percentage of people on this forum that are like up to date and play?

>

> _"They can passively spam condi's while evading. Remove this. Either you evade or you deal condi's. Not both."_

> Because of this I know he ment D/D, because noone could possibly ask for removig evade frames from an evade skill to compensate from a fact that it deals condi dmg, hence it musth have been about DB hence it must have been about D/D.

> The S/D you are talking about was not even on Metabattle site that day.

 

Seems like you are woefully unaware of lotus training trait for daredevil.

who actually cares if a build is on metabattle?

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lotus_Training

[Alatar.7364]

> @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> > > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > > The hell?

> > > > D/D Condi is miraculously back **after** a patch that reduced its effectiveness and was already not used at all for a very long time? That doesn't make sense to me, and I didn't meet a single one in literally over a year.

> > >

> > > seems you are often out of the loop. he most likely is not referencing d/d condi thief, he's talking about s/d condi dd, which is very strong in queue right now.

> > >

> > > whats the percentage of people on this forum that are like up to date and play?

> >

> > _"They can passively spam condi's while evading. Remove this. Either you evade or you deal condi's. Not both."_

> > Because of this I know he ment D/D, because noone could possibly ask for removig evade frames from an evade skill to compensate from a fact that it deals condi dmg, hence it musth have been about DB hence it must have been about D/D.

> > The S/D you are talking about was not even on Metabattle site that day.

>

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> > > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > > The hell?

> > > > D/D Condi is miraculously back **after** a patch that reduced its effectiveness and was already not used at all for a very long time? That doesn't make sense to me, and I didn't meet a single one in literally over a year.

> > >

> > > seems you are often out of the loop. he most likely is not referencing d/d condi thief, he's talking about s/d condi dd, which is very strong in queue right now.

> > >

> > > whats the percentage of people on this forum that are like up to date and play?

> >

> > _"They can passively spam condi's while evading. Remove this. Either you evade or you deal condi's. Not both."_

> > Because of this I know he ment D/D, because noone could possibly ask for removig evade frames from an evade skill to compensate from a fact that it deals condi dmg, hence it musth have been about DB hence it must have been about D/D.

> > The S/D you are talking about was not even on Metabattle site that day.

>

> Seems like you are woefully unaware of lotus training trait for daredevil.

 

That is **exactly** what I just said, that -> _"because noone could possibly ask for removig evade frames from an evade skill to compensate from a fact that it deals condi dmg"_ = noone would ask for removal of Evade frame from evade so it must have been DB what OP had in mind.

 

 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> >

> > > This is some serious _Miragesplaining™_. To call their vigor uptime low and compare their evades to necro is beyond ludicrous. Makes me question the legitimacy, even.

> > > 5s from False Oasis

> > > 5s From critical infusion(Here we've already matched bountiful theft in duration, and this comes from two different sources rather than just one)

> > > 5s With Chaotic Interruption RNG(No internal CD btw) or 8s Guaranteed with Bountiful Disillusionment

> > > 12s max with Nomad's Endurance

> > >

> > > They actually have some of, if not the very highest vigor uptime in the current meta, surpassed only by Holo/Engi(Maybe? Probably not, in all honesty.)

> > >

> > > Scepter 2 not only blocks, but has evade frames as well.

> > > I'll be modest and go along with you not counting Distortion, even though at one point in the game's history it literally counted as evades rather than invulns.

> > >

> > > On top of all that, they get mirrors like you say; which essentially act as an extra dodge, because even if it's being used offensively; it still grants evades to you and the other 3 yous. They also, as mentioned before; can use their evades in situations where DD's couldn't. And personally I don't see the use in dodges being "more mobile" when they are being used offensively as well as defensively. That seems like a completely contrived excuse.

> > >

> > > **So yeah, even with DD's 3 endurance bars, crazy refill, and evades tied to skills, i'm no less convinced they can't not manage to evade more than CI Mirages.**

> >

> > Bold statement is flat out wrong. Back around season 9 - 12 players calculated the evasion/block/invuln uptime between mirage and DD including vigor.

> > DD had more, and this was BEFORE the nerfs. Even if DD was to lose out, DD still had more on demand evasion compared to Mirage's uptime, a lot of it btw being tied to things like Mirrors, which I'll get to. Try to remember that was with the increased evade duration on mirage cloak

> >

> > I'm not going to count random instances of RNG, you could hypotethically steal a boon and get it. Besides power builds don't typically go down Chaos line.

> >

> > so 5s from False Oasis

> > 5s from Critical infusion

> Because this tells me you went to the wiki and didn't bother to actually read the skill.

>

> Critical infusion gives 3 seconds of vigor not 5

 

Actually that's my bad. I'm the one who told them it was 5 seconds first.

 

Honest mistake, yeah? The CI Mirage build on Metabattle is where you go to find what skills/traits they're using, and that isn't updated, then you go to the wiki and without seeing the patch notes, you're immediately shown the same number. So yeah, 2 seconds off; it's actually 3s. Even with that in mind it's just a silly talk about Mirage having more vigor than condi DD. I don't think either of us were trying to be particularly misleading or absurd enough to have it changed any lower or higher than it has been. Of course, if anyone in charge of balance were to look it and see all my mistakes; I don't imagine they'd take it very seriously to begin with.

 

At least, I really hope so. If I had the chance to influence any kind of change towards Mirage, personally i'd want it to be CI and/or Mantra of Distraction. Really the talk we had stems from the OP's point, as neither of those skills are mentioned.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> > >

> > > > This is some serious _Miragesplaining™_. To call their vigor uptime low and compare their evades to necro is beyond ludicrous. Makes me question the legitimacy, even.

> > > > 5s from False Oasis

> > > > 5s From critical infusion(Here we've already matched bountiful theft in duration, and this comes from two different sources rather than just one)

> > > > 5s With Chaotic Interruption RNG(No internal CD btw) or 8s Guaranteed with Bountiful Disillusionment

> > > > 12s max with Nomad's Endurance

> > > >

> > > > They actually have some of, if not the very highest vigor uptime in the current meta, surpassed only by Holo/Engi(Maybe? Probably not, in all honesty.)

> > > >

> > > > Scepter 2 not only blocks, but has evade frames as well.

> > > > I'll be modest and go along with you not counting Distortion, even though at one point in the game's history it literally counted as evades rather than invulns.

> > > >

> > > > On top of all that, they get mirrors like you say; which essentially act as an extra dodge, because even if it's being used offensively; it still grants evades to you and the other 3 yous. They also, as mentioned before; can use their evades in situations where DD's couldn't. And personally I don't see the use in dodges being "more mobile" when they are being used offensively as well as defensively. That seems like a completely contrived excuse.

> > > >

> > > > **So yeah, even with DD's 3 endurance bars, crazy refill, and evades tied to skills, i'm no less convinced they can't not manage to evade more than CI Mirages.**

> > >

> > > Bold statement is flat out wrong. Back around season 9 - 12 players calculated the evasion/block/invuln uptime between mirage and DD including vigor.

> > > DD had more, and this was BEFORE the nerfs. Even if DD was to lose out, DD still had more on demand evasion compared to Mirage's uptime, a lot of it btw being tied to things like Mirrors, which I'll get to. Try to remember that was with the increased evade duration on mirage cloak

> > >

> > > I'm not going to count random instances of RNG, you could hypotethically steal a boon and get it. Besides power builds don't typically go down Chaos line.

> > >

> > > so 5s from False Oasis

> > > 5s from Critical infusion

> > Because this tells me you went to the wiki and didn't bother to actually read the skill.

> >

> > Critical infusion gives 3 seconds of vigor not 5

>

> Actually that's my bad. I'm the one who told them it was 5 seconds first.

>

> Honest mistake, yeah?

 

I don't buy that line anymore. Sorry.

There are too many resources that you can double check your numbers from. Even the game itself.

If you are going to complain about something and paint it in the most negative light that you can ( like in your first post) then you need to be accurate.

No other class main would accept inaccuracies when someone is complaining about their class.

Especially when they try and make a detailed argument as to why a class is or is not too strong.

And people do it continually to the mesmer. As if mesmer mains don't already have to prove that all the hyperbole and misinformation surrounding the class is just that.

Please don't add to the problem.

 

*Research- Articulate- Then hit the post button.*

I swear I'm not asking too much.

 

 

>The CI Mirage build on Metabattle is where you go to find what skills/traits they're using,

Trusting meta battle is your first mistake.

I remember when for one of the power mirage builds it listed a mirage as having both the blind on shatter trait AND the reflect on dodge trait.

And people honestly thought you could have both of those at the same time.

They both shared the same master tier.

Having them both was literally impossible.

 

 

>then you go to the wiki and without seeing the patch notes, you're immediately shown the same number.

 

In a big pink box at the top of that traits page

" This trait is split between game modes — select one to view:"

 

You literally cant miss that.

> I don't imagine they'd take it very seriously to begin with.

Has it not been proven enough.

 

This dev team in charge of balance is incompetent. Period.

They cave to forum QQ.

They have been doing so for over a year.

Most recent victim of that was Soulbeast with the Sic' Em QQ.

Scrapper as well.

So don't think you hold no weight here. Especially dealing with a dev team that has never touched half of the classes and balances with a dart board.

 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> If you are going to complain about something and paint it in the most negative light that you can ( like in your first post) then you need to be accurate.

> No other class main would accept inaccuracies when someone is complaining about their class.

> Especially when they try and make a detailed argument as to why a class is or is not too strong.

> And people do it continually to the mesmer. As if mesmer mains don't already have to prove that all the hyperbole and misinformation surrounding the class is just that.

> Please don't add to the problem.

 

If I ever go to make a case as to why I think something is overpowered, i'll be sure and take all this into account.

 

Didn't do that in my first post though. I just asked why the OP would include condi thief when I believed Mirage had 2x the evades, and 4x the conditions.

 

This whole thing turned into an exploratory analysis of the two classes, stipulations on their evades, and vigor uptime. To which, i've actually learned quite a lot, so it was pretty constructive, I think.

 

That being said...

 

> Has it not been proven enough.

>

> This dev team in charge of balance is incompetent. Period.

> They cave to forum QQ.

> They have been doing so for over a year.

> Most recent victim of that was Soulbeast with the Sic' Em QQ.

> Scrapper as well.

> So don't think you hold no weight here. Especially dealing with a dev team that has never touched half of the classes and balances with a dart board.

 

If the game is balanced over misinformation and irrelevant comparisons, i'm not going to blame myself for that; sorry. If I was here calling for nerfs on anything I talked about, then i'd understand that I would be contributing, but as I didn't say anything of the sort; my expectation is that this discussion would not impact actual profession balance at all in any way.

 

To compare the scope to something like Scrapper or Soulbeast, you had multiple people all calling them overpowered, spanning across multiple threads. At that rate, my expectation _and_ experience would be the balance team would be more likely to take that into account regardless of how accurate it is based on the scope and context alone.

 

Is there an excuse for me being wrong? No. I made a few stupid mistakes and i'm happy to admit them if it means learning from them.

Although I won't be blamed for something else entirely(influencing balance) when I didn't call anything I was right or wrong about overpowered, or even ask for changes. All I did was question the OP's reasoning, and still to this point i've only got about 1/3 of an answer behind a lot of Miragesplaining.

 

Again, my balance wish-list for Mirage is an internal CD for CI and one or two of many potential changes to Mantra of Distraction. These are things the OP didn't even talk about, and are only slightly relevant to our discussion when comparing Vigor uptime on condi DD to CI Mirage; to which, I didn't spread any misinformation on those particular skills/traits when they came up.

 

> Trusting meta battle is your first mistake.

> I remember when for one of the power mirage builds it listed a mirage as having both the blind on shatter trait AND the reflect on dodge trait.

> And people honestly thought you could have both of those at the same time.

> They both shared the same master tier.

> Having them both was literally impossible.

 

I mean, I agree on this last bit. If there's a another resource for posting, sharing, and rating builds; i'd gladly use it, but I don't know of many, and other resources like Godsofpvp are usually updated too slowly, and suffer from a few of the same issues.

 

 

 

[Hex.8714]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > >**its evassivness is it's one and only defense with occasional use of one time mobility to run away. DD doesn't have bloated defense with blocks/invul/protection spam/aegis/ALSO super high evade uptime/also mobility all in one kit like Mirage does**, so it better kitten keep higher evade uptime than all other professions.

> >

> > So Thieves didn't have blocks, and blinds on top of the evasion along with either being being able to engage and disengage at will with teleports, or had perma stealth? The last two something mesmer could not do? (and was far superior to a mechanic like illusions)

>

>

> Thieves don't have blocks, DD does and it is on more than twice the CD and twice lower block duration than the one used by Mirage. Mirage always had more blinds than thief and I do not consider Stealth to be defense, but rather utility, that's why I didn't mention Blinds nor Stealth as Defense in Mirage kit either, it would be hypocritical to say Thief has Stealth or Blinds as defense but Mirage doesn't even though Mirage has access to all of those.

>

> > not saying DD shouldn't have more, but it's disingenuous to complain about mirage's evasion who then at least in terms of power builds had to line up something significantly less safe and less widely than a backstab, or dance around sword. You also say "all in one kit", for Thief a lot of defensive options came from weapons. I'd call that more "all in one kit" than Mes scrounging form 3 different lines

>

> I am not complaining about Mirage evassivnes, I am saying that DD is simply supposed to have more.

> About the Weapons, the defensive options are once more Evasion for the most part, I'd rather have more viable Utility options _(which thief is completely locked in to)_ than having to rely on something that consumes a resource for both weapon sets and thus can't just swap weapons and continue fighting, which brings us back to the current Mirage's build with 8-second CD 2sec Duration block that spawns clones vs DDs 20-second CD 1.5 sec Duration block _(which is irrelevant because at the moment no meta DD build even exists and the old D/P does not use it)_, so Mesmer/Mirage is definitely on the good side too when it comes to defense incorporated in weapons, especially when you consider that Thief uses Initiative to deal dmg/evade etc. and thats it, it just gets consumed, while Mesmer weapon skills do the same only on top of that they also generate resource to use other mechanics like Shatters or simple continuos dmg/condi apllication or Trait-benefits tied to number of clones, I am not complaining about that, just saying that Mesmer weapon skills are very much no-worse than thieves.

>

> >

> > > Not to mention that almost since release, Thief and all of its specs were fulfilling only one role, unlike Mirage who was able to fill in all existing roles except Support, all in one kit, so it had to get nerfed "hard", there was no excuse for it not to get nerfed hard and yet as you can see, even after those nerfs, it is still a go to profession for majority _(sorry for what I am about to use)_ of the sheep "players".

> >

> > Since release Mesmer was replaced by thief up until HoT, and was only taken for Portal and TimeWarp, both taken for the team. After S1 Chronobunk was nerfed it was condi mes mostly taken for Portal and double Moa. I don't know how that's "filling every roll"

> >

>

> I hope you are not intentionally misinterpreting what I said, I **never** said that Mesmer filled all the roles, I said **Mirage did** and that is undeniable truth.

> I agree about the Anet nerfing wrong stuff, but Mirages survivabiltty was also far too great considered that even on defense it applied great pressure so I am glad that some of it got nerfed.

>

>

 

mirage does fill all roles currently, it can tank, team fight, 1v1, hold 1v2s, CC, DPS, res with chaos storm/ invul. and also has insta cast ranged CC with no animation thanks to daza mantra

[Skyronight.6370]

im not sure why mesmer mains are defending this spec, do you realize that once everyone rolls a mirage you wont win any games anymore right, it will just be who can spam buttons faster and proc CI and die from torment/confusion. Its an absolutely skilllesss toxic build that does not belong in pvp and needs to be revamped asap.

[bravan.3876]

Mention of thief maybe makes this unmergable? Sad day