Deadeye is weak in PVE

[Ohoni.6057]

> @TwiceDead.1963 said:

>You can't say that when you, yourself, bring up Resets, as that's primarily a PvP term.

 

No, it's a PvE term, as in, if you attack an enemy that cannot figure out how to reach you, then it will "reset," returning to a safe location and healing to full at an unstoppable rate. An easy example of this is the enemies in the Library. Only in PvP do Deadeyes have the luxury of potentially fighting against an opponent that cannot reach their location due to terrain imbalance. Because this does not work, the range advantage of a stationary Deadeye is worth nothing more than the couple seconds it takes the enemy to run over to them, it's not some massive game-changer worthy of a massive strength difference.

 

>Rifle needs some love, I've said this in the past and I agree it needs help, but I don't want to buff it to the same ludicrous degrees like some of the suggestions I've seen thrown around on this part of the forums, from the sounds of it you want a cannon that can deal Gun-Flame amounts of damage every auto-attack judging this line:

 

>>DD can run up and VaultVaultVault and they're dead, a Deadeye should be able to HeadshotHeadshotHeadshot in roughly the same timeframe before any of them could reach him across open terrain.

 

>And that I don't agree with. However I do agree it needs some buffs to make it feel better to play and less clunky, especially kneel. Good? Good. Now, Rifle aside...

 

I'm flexible on how it gets there, but it does need to be able to deal damage comparable to what a Daredevil can pump out, to multiple targets over a given period of time. Since it's primarily single target rather than multi-target, that likely would come in the form of much higher damage per target, so that multiple targets could be taken down sequentially rather than simultaneously.

 

>Deadeye is perfectly capable of dealing with the same mobs everyone else is fighting. Where Daredevil can run into a pile of trash-mobs and vaultvaultvault as you put it, a Deadeye can IS into the same pack and throw around a couple of pistol-whips and achieve the same results, there's going to be a dead pack of mobs at your feet at the end, except you are going to be in better shape than the Daredevil.

 

That's talking a non-Rifle Deadeye though. While you certainly _can_ play a non-Rifle Deadeye, the spec _should_ be meta using its signature weapon, the advice should not be "then don't use a Rifle."

 

 

 

 

[primatos.5413]

Stop

and l2p

[Dashiva.6149]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

>

> That's talking a non-Rifle Deadeye though. While you certainly _can_ play a non-Rifle Deadeye, the spec _should_ be meta using its signature weapon, the advice should not be "then don't use a Rifle."

>

 

While the Rifle only works with Deadeye, why "should" it be forced to be the meta if players doesn't feel it lives up to expectations? Plenty of Weavers prefer staff to sword, and it's 50/50 if Daredevils run around with D/D instead of staffs. A signature weapon is only a tool and not magically the best for all builds that features that particular specialization.

 

Generally speaking tho, are we talking "Deadeye is weak in pve" or "Thief rifle-skills is weak in pve"? Because there seems to be two seperate discussions happening in this thread.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @Dashiva.6149 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> >

> > That's talking a non-Rifle Deadeye though. While you certainly _can_ play a non-Rifle Deadeye, the spec _should_ be meta using its signature weapon, the advice should not be "then don't use a Rifle."

> >

>

> While the Rifle only works with Deadeye, why "should" it be forced to be the meta if players doesn't feel it lives up to expectations? Plenty of Weavers prefer staff to sword, and it's 50/50 if Daredevils run around with D/D instead of staffs. A signature weapon is only a tool and not magically the best for all builds that features that particular specialization.

>

> Generally speaking tho, are we talking "Deadeye is weak in pve" or "Thief rifle-skills is weak in pve"? Because there seems to be two seperate discussions happening in this thread.

 

No one is forcing it per say, if you want a melee weapon use daggers and staff on DD if you want another meta weapon. Rifle does though need to have its damage be up there to be considered a meta weapon because of the lack of ranged weapons in the meta. Staff and short bow should not be the only ranged weapons there. It needs firearms up there too.

[Xtinct.7031]

> @tigirius.9014 said:

> Deadeye even with buffs and stolen buffs it just doesn't do much damage. Enemies stay for long period of time alive and well dancing around shots like they got tickled.

>

> Engineer PVE with the new elite spec Holosmith puts Deadeye to shame, I can range it and shoot shots at enemies knocking enemies over at range and easily avoiding shots.

>

> I think the developers have severely nerfed this spec because of a false notion that a ranged character should not be powerful, they did this with the long bows once on the Rangers as I recall it was well overdone and the longbow was so weak no one used them anymore across the entire game.

>

> Arenanet please fix this damage ratio on this class because you've nerfed it under the table for PVE.

 

I agree, DE stolen item abilities do feel weak. Low direct damage, low condition damage, thus making condition or hybrid unviable in most pve situations.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Dashiva.6149 said:

>While the Rifle only works with Deadeye, why "should" it be forced to be the meta if players doesn't feel it lives up to expectations?

 

I think you're looking at it the wrong way around. Nobody should be "forced" to use the Rifle, other builds should be viable, or even *just as good* as the Rifle for the DE. But the Rifle *should* be meta TOO. The Rifle should be plenty good that anyone who would like to use the Rifle can, and will feel no drop in performance in the type of content this game has. Basically, ever since PoF launched there has been a constant mantra of the Thief boards "well then don't equip the Rifle," and THAT is what needs to go away. If someone has a Rifle equipped, if they want to have a Rifle equipped, then the spec should be designed to make that work for them in ALL game modes, against ALL types of content (although they might have to shift traits around or use different tactics for different types of content).

 

We need them to change the spec so that the *only* reason anyone would ever say "well don't use the Rifle then" is in response to someone saying "it works well, but I just really don't *like* using a Rifle."

 

>Generally speaking tho, are we talking "Deadeye is weak in pve" or "Thief rifle-skills is weak in pve"? Because there seems to be two seperate discussions happening in this thread.

 

Both.

 

 

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Dashiva.6149 said:

> >While the Rifle only works with Deadeye, why "should" it be forced to be the meta if players doesn't feel it lives up to expectations?

>

> I think you're looking at it the wrong way around. Nobody should be "forced" to use the Rifle, other builds should be viable, or even *just as good* as the Rifle for the DE. But the Rifle *should* be meta TOO. The Rifle should be plenty good that anyone who would like to use the Rifle can, and will feel no drop in performance in the type of content this game has. Basically, ever since PoF launched there has been a constant mantra of the Thief boards "well then don't equip the Rifle," and THAT is what needs to go away. If someone has a Rifle equipped, if they want to have a Rifle equipped, then the spec should be designed to make that work for them in ALL game modes, against ALL types of content (although they might have to shift traits around or use different tactics for different types of content).

>

> We need them to change the spec so that the *only* reason anyone would ever say "well don't use the Rifle then" is in response to someone saying "it works well, but I just really don't *like* using a Rifle."

>

> >Generally speaking tho, are we talking "Deadeye is weak in pve" or "Thief rifle-skills is weak in pve"? Because there seems to be two seperate discussions happening in this thread.

>

> Both.

>

>

 

I couldn't agree more. Well said.

[DeceiverX.8361]

How about we first do that for every other kit in existence?

There have been massive disparities since near when this game launched.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @DeceiverX.8361 said:

> How about we first do that for every other kit in existence?

> There have been massive disparities since near when this game launched.

 

I think they should do that to every kit eventually, but they should do it to the Deadeye first because of their statements for the class. It should get the priority for ranged dealing melee level being welcomed in the meta.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @DeceiverX.8361 said:

> How about we first do that for every other kit in existence?

> There have been massive disparities since near when this game launched.

 

I do think they should work on that, I think that they should try with each balance patch to focus on at least one existing spec that is under-performing and try to polish it up, *however,* I feel that when they launch an expansion, they are adding this new thing to the game, and so they should have as a priority that this new thing works great, and if they flub the initial launch, then their first priority in the next patch should be resolving that. Once the new thing is working right, they can go back and try to fix any older stuff, but people who bought the expansion want to play with the new toys, and they don't want those new toys to be broken.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Just giving the rifle more damage isn't helping solve that problem, however. It also makes no sense to do first; there's better objective data on the rest of the kits to work with, and people have been waiting for fixes on those for literally years in a lot of cases. ANet's refusal to fix old problems is one of the biggest reasons why seasoned players are leaving in droves: long-term faith just is not there. Rifle works for its main intended purposes and concepts; PvE balancing is mostly an impossible task between the kits once you start measuring DPS. That's before the whole risk/reward subjectivity thing there is even factored in. There will always be an optimum. Always.

 

But let's be honest, here. We all know ANet isn't going to fix the many major conceptual failures that are dragging the game down.

 

 

[ixl.7190]

From a strictly open world PVE point of view, especially when it comes to solo farming both regular and veteran mobs, I love Deadeye.

 

Daredevil gave me absolutely nothing I couldn't already do with an axe warrior, outside of having shortbow AoE spam available for fast tagging.

 

Deadeye gave me Renewing Gaze, which essentially gave me back Assassin's Promise from gw1, with my traits and weapons providing the role of Discord Necromancer heroes.

 

Rifle isn't bad once you get used to the kneel mechanic. With some practice, it becomes pretty automatic. Damage... Is good enough, most mobs don't outlive Mark>2>3>3. If I'm facing 3+ mobs who are on me, I just swap to shortbow and strafe/kite and spam 2.

 

The mechanics of Deadeye's Mark is the reason to play this class for me. Frontloading massive debuffs/buffs, and having it reset on kill, allows extremely fast killing of consecutive single mobs, none of which usually get a single attack off (due to range, cc, or both).

[Ohoni.6057]

> @DeceiverX.8361 said:

>PvE balancing is mostly an impossible task between the kits once you start measuring DPS. That's before the whole risk/reward subjectivity thing there is even factored in. There will always be an optimum. Always.

 

True, and anyone chasing the absolute peak will always only have one answer, but the goal is top bring the performance to within a reasonable margin of error, such that a character can pick the one he *enjoys* using, and that version will work *almost* as well as whatever the peak is, enough that players wouldn't really notice much difference without DPS meters. That doesn't have to mean a pure DPS race, survivability can also factor into the balance equations, but given the overall pacing of *this* game, speed definitely takes priority over other options to some degree. You can't get away with sacrificing too much DPS in favor of defense, and if so, that should be up to the players in how they gear, rather than being an inevitability in choosing a given weapon. A spec can be noticeably slower to kill If it's noticeably more likely to survive a number of varying dangerous scenarios, but ideally it would be close in DPs either way.

[Kallist.5917]

I've been seeing these comments a lot. Deadeye is weak, deadeye isnt mobile enough, deadeye is useless. You cant PVE with a deadeye. And Im here to say your wrong. Try changing your play-style, your goal with the build, before you just decide the spec is bad. I've solo'd through nearly all the dungeons, several factals, solo champs all across the map frequently, and all of it has been with both Condi and DPS deadeyes. Go back, read the skills, read the traits, and figure it out before you demand balance passes. Stuffs been out a month and we already have the meta kiddies are upset they haven't figured it out.

[Barzah.8019]

It's ezpz to PvP with Deadeye Rifle since you will stay on stealth mode every single time while nosc0pe everything in front of you (been there done that). The problem is the sloooow build up, where power mesmer could do the same thing and they don't need any preparation whatsoever, meanwhile Deadeye rifle keep getting stuck in "wasting initiative for crap damage" or "browse anything good on internet till your malice reach +4" situation.

[Zenith.7301]

Ranged playstyle will never be a thing in PvE so long as you still need to stack to gain quickness and alacrity from the chrono wells and phantasms, and grace of the land from the druid.

 

Best thing they can do for deadeye in PvE is have the mark be refreshed by spending X amount of initiative per interval. It's so stupid you have to ramp up the mark only to get to 2-3 death's judgements and then be back to ramping up with abysmal damage.

[Sobx.1758]

> @Kallist.5917 said:

> I've been seeing these comments a lot. Deadeye is weak, deadeye isnt mobile enough, deadeye is useless. You cant PVE with a deadeye. And Im here to say your wrong. Try changing your play-style, your goal with the build, before you just decide the spec is bad. I've solo'd through nearly all the dungeons, several factals, solo champs all across the map frequently, and all of it has been with both Condi and DPS deadeyes. Go back, read the skills, read the traits, and figure it out before you demand balance passes. Stuffs been out a month and we already have the meta kiddies are upset they haven't figured it out.

 

lmao, you realise you jsut said nothing? 4 lanes of nothingness, not bad.

[Zacchary.6183]

> @Kallist.5917 said:

> I've been seeing these comments a lot. Deadeye is weak, deadeye isnt mobile enough, deadeye is useless. You cant PVE with a deadeye. And Im here to say your wrong. Try changing your play-style, your goal with the build, before you just decide the spec is bad. I've solo'd through nearly all the dungeons, several factals, solo champs all across the map frequently, and all of it has been with both Condi and DPS deadeyes. Go back, read the skills, read the traits, and figure it out before you demand balance passes. **Stuffs been out a month and we already have the meta kiddies are upset they haven't figured it out.**

 

Ain't that the truth. lol

[DeceiverX.8361]

Because it isn't straightforward enough. For whatever reason, people want the sniper to be dealing machine-gun levels of damage.

 

Again, the rifle as a weapon is supposed to fill a specific niche; it's clearly not designed to be a sustained DPS weapon.

 

The DE itself is otherwise pretty much fine in PvE when it comes to balancing. The numbers are fairly close.

I think it's more the fact that people just don't like the style of play the DE brings. It's intentionally clunky because that's what snipers and long rifles are.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Because it isn't straightforward enough. For whatever reason, people want the sniper to be dealing machine-gun levels of damage.

 

Again, the rifle as a weapon is supposed to fill a specific niche; it's clearly not designed to be a sustained DPS weapon.

 

The DE itself is otherwise pretty much fine in PvE when it comes to balancing. The numbers are fairly close.

I think it's more the fact that people just don't like the style of play the DE brings. It's intentionally clunky because that's what snipers and long rifles are.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @DeceiverX.8361 said:

> Because it isn't straightforward enough. For whatever reason, people want the sniper to be dealing machine-gun levels of damage.

>

> Again, the rifle as a weapon is supposed to fill a specific niche; it's clearly not designed to be a sustained DPS weapon.

>

> The DE itself is otherwise pretty much fine in PvE when it comes to balancing. The numbers are fairly close.

> I think it's more the fact that people just don't like the style of play the DE brings. It's intentionally clunky because that's what snipers and long rifles are.

 

The rifle has to be taken into raids and high end stuff though, so they might have to change it to sustain. You can want it to remain niche all you want, but I want it to be used as something that does respectable amount of damage in a raid environment. I have no problem with the kneeling and the style involved with the DE. I just want it to do at least 30k damage with the rifle like its counterpart the DD using the staff. Before you say it again, it is not a pipe dream. Something like that should become a reality.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @DeceiverX.8361 said:

>Again, the rifle as a weapon is supposed to fill a specific niche; it's clearly not designed to be a sustained DPS weapon.

 

Then it was poorly designed, because it was added to a game where sustained DPS is important.

 

>I think it's more the fact that people just don't like the style of play the DE brings. It's intentionally clunky because that's what snipers and long rifles are.

 

Again, "slow" is fine, so long as the damage adds up. A slow by steady weapon should have *higher* sustained DPS than a rapid fire weapon, it should just come in waves rather than constantly, like 10-2-2-3-10-2-2-3-10. . . instead of 5-4-4-5-4-4-5-4-4. . . it should be a bit peaky, so that you might finish off an enemy with a high damage attack so that you don't use your potential 100% efficiently, but over the long game, a sniper *should* have higher overall damage. If it doesn't, then what's the compensation for being slow and "clunky?"

 

And the other thing is that however they choose to make it "clunky" needs to be compatible with GW2's mechanics, for example players ALWAYS need to be able to escape ground targeted AoEs, especially chained ones (like Forged soldiers). Having a mechanic that makes it difficult to move is just bad design. Instead, it should be mechanics that *punish* you for moving, giving you the choice, but having it cut into your DPS potential if you use it, rather than preventing you making that choice at all.

 

Out of curiosity though, what do you believe the Rifle's niche is in open world PvE? What does it currently do that can't be done faster and more efficiently with a different Thief weapon/build? And is that niche advantage worth keeping the Rifle permanently equipped in one of your weapon slots, and the DE spec permanently slotted, or so you see it as something that a player would only throw together right before and after one of these niche encounters? Personally, when I switch to a build, I like to be able to leave it on for months at a time, because the tools for build swapping in this game are too much of a hassle.

[DeceiverX.8361]

I don't think you understand what good design is. Good design != optimal or viable in every use case.

Would I prefer to not have the "stealth-sniper" concept in the game altogether? Yes. That's why I advocated against the entire notion for what was literally years.

 

Sustained DPS is only important in optimized raids. In literally every other area of the game, it's not important or even particularly good.

 

The niche was long range burst damage with stealth interplay akin to... a "sniper" which is the basis for the spec itself and what people demanded.

 

The problem, yet again, is that the "sniper" concept doesn't belong in GW2. The entire existence of DE is wrong. It's not a rifle problem or a numbers problem. The DE, by concept and mechanics, *needs* to be this way to keep it balanced with other kits on the design-level. I dislike it, but one has to respect the necessity of it. Especially so for the PvP formats, where astonishingly, range and burst are extremely significant factors in what can constitute winning a fight.

 

The high-stealth high-burst "slow" feel is compatible because it's trading away the strengths of mobility which were previously *expected* to be major parts of the thief/GW2's mechanics. Mobility power creep and negation has happened. That's half the problem. Sadly, you can't fairly allow the DE/rifle to ignore those two things. And even still, the DE and Rifle are extremely mobile despite kneel. You can still re-position during kneel via two/three ground-targeted teleports and dodge rolls. You can also cancel kneel at literally any time. You're complaining about unable to *camp* kneel. That's either a player-skill problem by being unable to respond to AOE circles on time, or the simple fact you don't like needing to swap to begin with. Again, neither are explicitly problems with the rifle's design itself.

 

The rifle, contrary to Daredevil and what has become the thief itself, is intended to be a very calculated kit. I've said since before HoT that the Daredevil is extremely spammy and requires little thought to play reasonably well. News flash: The rifle isn't of that mentality. You can't play DPS on a rifle, because while I know it's hard to believe, the kit is designed to be slow to offer people *options* to styles of play that are different than before, as elite specs are supposed to. Like how reaper makes the necro a melee, resource-driven bruiser from a caster. Whether or not they've succeeded is another story. But that's the design *intent* which is pretty obvious if you just look at functionality of the kit and what it covers and has synergy with.

 

Sometimes, things are not designed for optimality or even particularly potent purpose in PvE. Tell me: how important is the shortbow in PvE? I guess it has purpose for people who can't kite or dodge or use utility skills, but otherwise it basically has less use than the rifle. Yet on the same coin, it's historically been the thief's most potent and important PvP tool. Let's not kid ourselves, either. Anything can perform in open-world PvE. I've soloed meta events on P/P core thief without runes.

 

The rifle is a PvP gimmick, given to the thousands of players who demanded a "one-hit-kill sniper" build option. Yes, it's stupid, but unless you throw the entire concept away, it's necessary for the kit to be this way, else it risks being overpowered or just a simply stronger version of core thief. It's very obviously not designed to be used a lot for PvE except in World boss-size fights where range is safe. Does that help?

 

And swapping builds in this game is extremely easy. A lot of top PvP players will swap trait lines in the middle of fights during resets. Lack of willingness to do so just because it's difficult isn't a real reason.

 

Sounds to me like you just don't like the concept. And if that's how you feel, that's fine. Asking for more damage just because you disagree with the concept of the kit is pointless, though.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @DeceiverX.8361 said:

> I don't think you understand what good design is. Good design != optimal or viable in every use case.

> Would I prefer to not have the "stealth-sniper" concept in the game altogether? Yes. That's why I advocated against the entire notion for what was literally years.

>

> Sustained DPS is only important in optimized raids. In literally every other area of the game, it's not important or even particularly good.

 

Sustained DPS is *usually* important. I don't necessarily mean being able to pump out damage over 15 minutes or more, but most fights against multiple enemies take thirty seconds to several minutes, especially in events, and any class in the game needs to be able to sustain damage over that period. Being able to dish out a massive burst of damage is typically fairly useless if you can't repeat it, it's only useful in PvP modes where being able to take an enemy completely out of the fight make a much bigger difference than being able to kill one trash mob or deal 25% damage to a tougher mob and then taking five minutes to wear down the other 75%.

 

Again, it should be in curves. A "bursty" character should be in a roller coaster, dealing a big packet of damage, and then dealing very little damage for 5-10-15 seconds, then another burst, but it should add up to being roughly equivalent. If a fight lasts, say, a minute, and the fight ends with one of the "peak" attacks in the burst damage class's curve, then his total DPS should be as high or higher than a "steady damage" character. If it falls during the "trough" portion of his curve, then it would end up being slightly lower DPS, but over the long haul, it should average out to roughly even.

 

There is no benefit to high burst if you can't maintain it.

 

>The problem, yet again, is that the "sniper" concept doesn't belong in GW2. The entire existence of DE is wrong. It's not a rifle problem or a numbers problem. The DE, by concept and mechanics, needs to be this way to keep it balanced with other kits on the design-level. I dislike it, but one has to respect the necessity of it. Especially so for the PvP formats, where astonishingly, range and burst are extremely significant factors in what can constitute winning a fight.

 

This is why you cannot balance PvP and PvE using the same tools. That is NO excuse for underserving the PvE side of the weapon. There is *nothing* preventing them from giving the PvE version balanced capabilities. There is no reason that the "sniper concept" cannot work in this game, If they commit to making it work, by giving it enough sustained damage to make up for low mobility, or enough mobility that it can merely be even in damage to other options. Currently it offers neither, and that's the only problem here.

 

>You can also cancel kneel at literally any time. You're complaining about unable to camp kneel.

 

I'm complaining about having to leave kneel because the controls for leaving kneel are clunky and inconsistent. It is just not a well designed option. I don't mind leaving kneel to move, I mind having to hit 5 to do so. I also don't feel that the benefits of kneel are enough to justify the hassles. They could either make it more comfortable to use, OR make it massively stronger, but the current state is not good enough.

 

>You can't play DPS on a rifle, because while I know it's hard to believe, the kit is designed to be slow to offer people options to styles of play that are different than before, as elite specs are supposed to.

 

Again, presenting play options if GOOD, but those options need to be things that are *viable* in the game they've created. A class designed around slowly creeping through a camp and picking off enemies one by one over fifteen minutes is completely pointless when other classes could accomplish the exact same task in five. Whatever role the Deadeye is good at, it needs to be a role that players need done, something that it can do better than other options, or at the very least equal to them.

 

>Like how reaper makes the necro a melee, resource-driven bruiser from a caster.

 

Which is a fine goal because either of those is capable of wading in and wrecking face. I took all of my characters through PoF content to get their new specs unlocked, and my Reaper had the easiest time of all of them (aside from my Daredevil) because she could wreck face and be very survivable at the same time. It's a different playstyle than a condi-spam Necro, but it's reasonably-equally viable. I don't expect a Deadeye to play the same as a Daredevil, I just expect it to be able to clear the same game objectives in the same amount of time, on average.

 

>Sometimes, things are not designed for optimality or even particularly potent purpose in PvE. Tell me: how important is the shortbow in PvE? I guess it has purpose for people who can't kite or dodge or use utility skills, but otherwise it basically has less use than the rifle. Yet on the same coin, it's historically been the thief's most potent and important PvP tool. Let's not kid ourselves, either. Anything can perform in open-world PvE. I've soloed meta events on P/P core thief without runes.

 

SB used to be good for adding mobility when out of combat, and for AoE tagging. It's less useful now, and they might want to consider restoring some of its original functions, like giving it's full range back. Again though, you can't balance a class for PvP and then just say "eh, good enough." You ALSO need to balance it for PvE, because while it make be "good enough" to get passed content, it needs to be better than that, it needs to be FUN.

 

>The rifle is a PvP gimmick, given to the thousands of players who demanded a "one-hit-kill sniper" build option. Yes, it's stupid, but unless you throw the entire concept away, it's necessary for the kit to be this way, else it risks being overpowered or just a simply stronger version of core thief. It's very obviously not designed to be used a lot for PvE except in World boss-size fights where range is safe. Does that help?

 

Yes, so you basically agree with my entire point, the Deadeye (Rifle at least) IS weak in PvE. There's no reason it has to be. They can make it better.

 

>Sounds to me like you just don't like the concept. And if that's how you feel, that's fine. Asking for more damage just because you disagree with the concept of the kit is pointless, though.

 

I like the concept just fine, it just needs to live up to it in a way that is relevant to PvE gameplay. Plenty of PvE games have snipers in them, even ones that offer other options. You just need to make them worth playing against the content.

 

 

 

 

 

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @DeceiverX.8361 said:

> I don't think you understand what good design is. Good design != optimal or viable in every use case.

> Would I prefer to not have the "stealth-sniper" concept in the game altogether? Yes. That's why I advocated against the entire notion for what was literally years.

>

> Sustained DPS is only important in optimized raids. In literally every other area of the game, it's not important or even particularly good.

>

> The niche was long range burst damage with stealth interplay akin to... a "sniper" which is the basis for the spec itself and what people demanded.

>

> The problem, yet again, is that the "sniper" concept doesn't belong in GW2. The entire existence of DE is wrong. It's not a rifle problem or a numbers problem. The DE, by concept and mechanics, *needs* to be this way to keep it balanced with other kits on the design-level. I dislike it, but one has to respect the necessity of it. Especially so for the PvP formats, where astonishingly, range and burst are extremely significant factors in what can constitute winning a fight.

>

> The high-stealth high-burst "slow" feel is compatible because it's trading away the strengths of mobility which were previously *expected* to be major parts of the thief/GW2's mechanics. Mobility power creep and negation has happened. That's half the problem. Sadly, you can't fairly allow the DE/rifle to ignore those two things. And even still, the DE and Rifle are extremely mobile despite kneel. You can still re-position during kneel via two/three ground-targeted teleports and dodge rolls. You can also cancel kneel at literally any time. You're complaining about unable to *camp* kneel. That's either a player-skill problem by being unable to respond to AOE circles on time, or the simple fact you don't like needing to swap to begin with. Again, neither are explicitly problems with the rifle's design itself.

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> The rifle, contrary to Daredevil and what has become the thief itself, is intended to be a very calculated kit. I've said since before HoT that the Daredevil is extremely spammy and requires little thought to play reasonably well. News flash: The rifle isn't of that mentality. You can't play DPS on a rifle, because while I know it's hard to believe, the kit is designed to be slow to offer people *options* to styles of play that are different than before, as elite specs are supposed to. Like how reaper makes the necro a melee, resource-driven bruiser from a caster. Whether or not they've succeeded is another story. But that's the design *intent* which is pretty obvious if you just look at functionality of the kit and what it covers and has synergy with.

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> Sometimes, things are not designed for optimality or even particularly potent purpose in PvE. Tell me: how important is the shortbow in PvE? I guess it has purpose for people who can't kite or dodge or use utility skills, but otherwise it basically has less use than the rifle. Yet on the same coin, it's historically been the thief's most potent and important PvP tool. Let's not kid ourselves, either. Anything can perform in open-world PvE. I've soloed meta events on P/P core thief without runes.

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> The rifle is a PvP gimmick, given to the thousands of players who demanded a "one-hit-kill sniper" build option. Yes, it's stupid, but unless you throw the entire concept away, it's necessary for the kit to be this way, else it risks being overpowered or just a simply stronger version of core thief. It's very obviously not designed to be used a lot for PvE except in World boss-size fights where range is safe. Does that help?

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> And swapping builds in this game is extremely easy. A lot of top PvP players will swap trait lines in the middle of fights during resets. Lack of willingness to do so just because it's difficult isn't a real reason.

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> Sounds to me like you just don't like the concept. And if that's how you feel, that's fine. Asking for more damage just because you disagree with the concept of the kit is pointless, though.

 

You see there is this thing called dual balancing meaning they can change aspects for it on the PvE side while the PvP side can do it's own thing. No, the rifle is not a gimmick designed just for PvP. It can be used in PvE if they just buff the numbers on it. It should be buffed despite everything you said on what you think and believe the rifle should thrive.

 

Yes, I know of the sniper concept, and it can work in PvE like Ohoni.6057 said with small bursts to where it balances out. No, I don't have the concept wrong, nor do I want to change it. All I want is for the rifle with DE to be dealing Daredevil level of damage and be optimal. Yes, I do believe that is possible because I am tired of melee thiefs.

 

Nothing you are going to say will change me of the opinion that DE can become viable in T4s/Raids using the rifle with DE. It **will** get to that point despite your nay-saying. Not everyone PvPs/WvW or cares for it, so having a weapon balance just around that is illogical, so I seriously doubt A-net will balance that way.