Just remove Kneel entirely?

[Ohoni.6057]

It occurred to me that the simplest way to fix Rifle would be to remove the Kneel mechanic entirely. Really, what does it add? Outside of the #4 move, all it does is provide minor tweaks to the other abilities. In a highly mobile game, balancing a class around being immobilized is pretty tricky to manage. So instead, just remove it.

 

Make it so that the #5 skill (traditionally a strong hitter) is just _always_ Death's Judgement (kneeled #4). It would have a self-root casting time similar to Warrior Rifle Burst. Then the #4 skill would _always_ be Death's Retreat (unkneeled #4), and could be traited to add Stealth (or the Stealth could be added to Death's Judgement when you aren't Revealed). Then the 1-3 abilities would just be some balance between their current forms, likely about halfway. Maybe as a compromise to the original design, a trait could be added that causes most of these moves to hit as hard or harder than the current kneeled version, in exchange for applying a very short self-root when you use them, so you would have the option or either getting most of the use out of them while remaining mobile, or getting the most power out of them in exchange for being a bit slower, but still never full "turret mode."

 

I don't think this would resolve the entire spec, but it would at least make the Rifle more playable.

[Umair.7693]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

 

> Make it so that the #5 skill (traditionally a strong hitter) is just _always_ Death's Judgement (kneeled #4). It would have a self-root casting time similar to Warrior Rifle Burst. Then the #4 skill would _always_ be Death's Retreat (unkneeled #4), and could be traited to add Stealth (or the Stealth could be added to Death's Judgement when you aren't Revealed).

 

This . Kneel bottleneck the thief mechanism itself.

Just add 1500 range as a baseline without having to kneel.

[Tony Nova.1832]

Kneel ain't that bad once you get used to it. I have a multi buttoned mouse so i keybind it to a much used button and muscle memory has been serving me well so far. However, if I were to tweek anything with the kneel it would be that it disengages with dodge rolls and jumps. Every so often I catch myself stuck in kneel when I try to evade. OR if it's the idea behind removing some of the mobility of thief and turning him into a stationary turret then at least give an incentive to do so, perhaps with a shield or enhanced protection

[Sarge shot Grif.6450]

It's pretty damn bad when we basically only get to use 3/4 of our already pretty low damage on bounties that utilize stuff like flash freeze or signaler, I'll never understand why kneeling makes a BULLET go faster and farther but a ranger can run around while shooting arrows that go faster and farther (it's been proven that they have more than 1500 range)

 

[Damocles.4908]

you have to take the bad with the good, they should have done this with HoT specs

[Sol VIII.6812]

I actually enjoy the kneel mechanic, but would add basicly the effect of "Adrenal Implant" from the "Tools"-Traitline of the Engineer (+50% endurance regeneration), so that you can move by dodging, while still being rooted if you mindlessly abuse it.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

No. Keep the kneel. Kneel mechanic is going to be the thing that saves the Deadeye spec if they truly intend range to deal melee level damage. I know it is not there yet, but without kneel, A-net would nerf Deadeye's damage even more. Kneel is our saving grace for damage.

[babazhook.6805]

Kneel does take getting used to but do remember standing from a Kneel removes movement impairing conditions. This is useful.

 

You can in fact use kneel when you are already immobbed or have cripple or chill on you to remove the same, this for 1 ini. This is like a Don't stop GM trait for all of one ini. Dropping to kneel with silent scope traited will also stealth. If you are traited for SE in the SA line you can in fact remove two damaging conditions plus cripple chill and an Immob for all of 1 ini. What a bargain!

 

If In Rifle , The DE should never have to worry about Immob , chill and cripple and this ability matches up well with Staff 3 when comparing benefits per ini spent thanks to kneel.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @babazhook.6805 said:

> Kneel does take getting used to but do remember standing from a Kneel removes movement impairing conditions. This is useful.

 

Daredevils can remove movement-impairing conditions just by dodging, which is MUCH more useful than Immobilizing yourself just to remove Cripple. Again, if the "removes immobilizing conditions" element is of value, just add that into Death's Retreat.

 

>Dropping to kneel with silent scope traited will also stealth.

 

Yes, but it does Stealth you in the exact place you were, Immobilized. As I said, they could instead apply the same trait to either Death's Retreat or Death's Judgement to maintain Stealth access.

 

 

 

[Zacchary.6183]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > Kneel does take getting used to but do remember standing from a Kneel removes movement impairing conditions. This is useful.

>

> Daredevils can remove movement-impairing conditions just by dodging, which is MUCH more useful than Immobilizing yourself just to remove Cripple. Again, if the "removes immobilizing conditions" element is of value, just add that into Death's Retreat.

>

> >Dropping to kneel with silent scope traited will also stealth.

>

> Yes, but it does Stealth you in the exact place you were, Immobilized. As I said, they could instead apply the same trait to either Death's Retreat or Death's Judgement to maintain Stealth access.

>

>

>

 

If you double tap it, you can get up and still have stealth. Free Action is instant.

[Cypher.4298]

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> No. Keep the kneel. Kneel mechanic is going to be the thing that saves the Deadeye spec if they truly intend range to deal melee level damage. I know it is not there yet, but without kneel, A-net would nerf Deadeye's damage even more. Kneel is our saving grace for damage.

 

Agreed, the kneeling mechanic is key. The fact that it lowers your mobility is what justifies the Deadeye being able to have higher than average ranged damage (well, they should in theory at least). I like this concept, honestly.

 

In practice, it seems so far that rifle damage in PvE is lacking and could use a buff. I don't find the rifle sPvP damage too bad, but it could use a few quality of life improvements all around. For example the kneeling thief should be able to rotate their direction more. Also even a simpler change like making the icon of the kneel skill a different color when you're kneeling would make things feel a little less clunky at times.

 

My biggest gripe about deadeye in sPvP is that it doesn't offer any forward mobility option between the rifle/cantrips/traits, so you still need to use shortbow secondary if you want to have the mobility to decap points (which thieves are expected to). I really like deadeye P/P for example, and wish I could use those as a backup to rifle, but then I would have zero mobility from losing shortbow since there aren't any skills available to help offset that.

[babazhook.6805]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > Kneel does take getting used to but do remember standing from a Kneel removes movement impairing conditions. This is useful.

>

> Daredevils can remove movement-impairing conditions just by dodging, which is MUCH more useful than Immobilizing yourself just to remove Cripple. Again, if the "removes immobilizing conditions" element is of value, just add that into Death's Retreat.

>

> >Dropping to kneel with silent scope traited will also stealth.

>

> Yes, but it does Stealth you in the exact place you were, Immobilized. As I said, they could instead apply the same trait to either Death's Retreat or Death's Judgement to maintain Stealth access.

>

>

>

 

Using 0ne INI to clear those conditions is cheaper then expending a dodge. In any case I compared that one ini to Don't stop and to Staff immob removal.

 

Addded to that you are not "immobilizing yourself:" in order to remove a crippled, You kneel and stand to remove Immob cripple and chill. When you stand up again which can only take an instant you can then do a Deaths retreat which will put you at distance and remove yet another condition. . As mentioned kneel/stand is just a double tap which takes just as long as a double tap to do a dodge.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Cypher.4298 said:

>Agreed, the kneeling mechanic is key. The fact that it lowers your mobility is what justifies the Deadeye being able to have higher than average ranged damage (well, they should in theory at least). I like this concept, honestly.

 

How does a Kneeling Deadeye's DPS stack up against a non-Kneeling Berserker with a Rifle?

 

>Using 0ne INI to clear those conditions is cheaper then expending a dodge. In any case I compared that one ini to Don't stop and to Staff immob removal.

 

Right, but if you have a staff then you have a Daredevil, and Daredevils just ignore Immobilize completely, so it's a moot point.

 

>As mentioned kneel/stand is just a double tap which takes just as long as a double tap to do a dodge.

 

Who double-taps to dodge? And even so, kneel/stand leaves you in the same location you started, if you dodge it also re-positions you and also provides perks. Better. I mean unless they are flinging immobs left and right, it's not an issue.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Cypher.4298 said:

> >Agreed, the kneeling mechanic is key. The fact that it lowers your mobility is what justifies the Deadeye being able to have higher than average ranged damage (well, they should in theory at least). I like this concept, honestly.

>

> How does a Kneeling Deadeye's DPS stack up against a non-Kneeling Berserker with a Rifle?

 

At the moment, both are about equal because the Deadeyes rifle kneeling mechanic hasn't been buffed yet to the point where it should be dealing DD damage. Once it reaches that point though, DE should be dealing a lot more damage making the kneel justified because it would be dealing melee level of damage with lack of mobility as the trade off.

 

Removing the kneel mechanic would basically gut the core of Deadeye making it's damage even worse because kneel isn't there for the trade off.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > @Cypher.4298 said:

> > >Agreed, the kneeling mechanic is key. The fact that it lowers your mobility is what justifies the Deadeye being able to have higher than average ranged damage (well, they should in theory at least). I like this concept, honestly.

> >

> > How does a Kneeling Deadeye's DPS stack up against a non-Kneeling Berserker with a Rifle?

>

> At the moment, both are about equal because the Deadeyes rifle kneeling mechanic hasn't been buffed yet to the point where it should be dealing DD damage. Once it reaches that point though, DE should be dealing a lot more damage making the kneel justified because it would be dealing melee level of damage with lack of mobility as the trade off.

>

> Removing the kneel mechanic would basically gut the core of Deadeye making it's damage even worse because kneel isn't there for the trade off.

 

I'm not sure which I would prefer, honestly. I think that having a more "run and gun" Deadeye would be more reliable than a turret Deadeye, but a turret Deadeye that can actually live up to the promise of headshotting enemies left and right would be a lot of fun too. They need to do _something_ though.

[Elyxia.2943]

please complain to Google Translate xD

 

The kneeling is not the problem;) whether the short arc is meaningful ... with heart seeker you can also move on, has clear no port, some abbreviations could be taken with the gun, also you can get a little tricky with the gun similar to the short arc.

The real problem is the minimal very slow damage of the rifle and the lame, much too noticeable animation of our super shot, which lands with me to 99% in the block / Evade etc. of the opponent.

As a combowaffe, this weapon is great ... as a tip knee + weapon change + 1 of d / p / pp, one stands after the weapon change instant ... = much au ...

(D / p) rifle (kneeling + silent aiming, offers the greatest potential, depending on the opponent you can play d / p also p / p marvelously).

you can, but also d / p + p / p play ... with daredevil one is stronger with d / p and can better avoid. and deadeye p / p + be faster, or you are death, somehow funny ... my favorite weapon p / p is playable.

But one must also be able to play the gun, I think that the first months almost none.

Horrible are the whole unmobile sniper rifles that only make the bad meta thieves have at least capped ... but these heroes grgr.

As condi thief, you are sniping and as a meta thief anyway lol.

S / d (s / p) + bow with acrobatics is probably the new meta ...

[Falcord.3608]

How about remove kneel and have DJ as #5, but have every rifle skill except autoattack kneel when attacking?

 

You just root yourself for the duration of the shot, with a damage bonus if you stay still for longer, but you can still walk normally between shots.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Falcord.3608 said:

> How about remove kneel and have DJ as #5, but have every rifle skill except autoattack kneel when attacking?

>

> You just root yourself for the duration of the shot, with a damage bonus if you stay still for longer, but you can still walk normally between shots.

 

It's worth considering, although perhaps as an optional trait, like you could run the spec as "always run-and-gun" as the default, or slot a spec to have moves auto-kneel on use, in exchange for being boosted in power. I don't know whether the "auto-kneel" mode would feel good, but it would at least be better than the current model, because you'd never get stuck kneeling.

[babazhook.6805]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Cypher.4298 said:

> >Agreed, the kneeling mechanic is key. The fact that it lowers your mobility is what justifies the Deadeye being able to have higher than average ranged damage (well, they should in theory at least). I like this concept, honestly.

>

> How does a Kneeling Deadeye's DPS stack up against a non-Kneeling Berserker with a Rifle?

>

> >Using 0ne INI to clear those conditions is cheaper then expending a dodge. In any case I compared that one ini to Don't stop and to Staff immob removal.

>

> Right, but if you have a staff then you have a Daredevil, and Daredevils just ignore Immobilize completely, so it's a moot point.

>

> >As mentioned kneel/stand is just a double tap which takes just as long as a double tap to do a dodge.

>

> Who double-taps to dodge? And even so, kneel/stand leaves you in the same location you started, if you dodge it also re-positions you and also provides perks. Better. I mean unless they are flinging immobs left and right, it's not an issue.

 

Who double taps to dodge? Does it matter? It not hard to double tap. It hardly rocket science and 1 ini is STILL better then expending a dodge just to clear conditions and that it leaves you in the same place is immaterial. I can still DODGE and end up in a different place. Kneel is not a dodge so why should it act as one? UC does not give you a 20 percent increased crit chance.

 

As to flinging Immobs left and right. I do this on my p/d build to help counter Daredevils. Use #2 twice and you can burn off two of their dodges. It then becomes much easier to get conditions loaded on such as following up with a steal bomb. I also use to to killd/d DB thieves. Not everyone takes UC while anyone using the kneel mechanic has the ability to remove those conditions.

 

a Rifle using theif can all but ignore Immobs just as a DD thief can just by using kneel.As a game mechanic kneel is fine. Issues with rifle are elsewhere.

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> No. Keep the kneel. Kneel mechanic is going to be the thing that saves the Deadeye spec if they truly intend range to deal melee level damage. I know it is not there yet, but without kneel, A-net would nerf Deadeye's damage even more. Kneel is our saving grace for damage.

 

I think the problem here is that it COULD be 'the thing that saves DE', but right now it isn't.

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @Sobx.1758 said:

> > @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> > No. Keep the kneel. Kneel mechanic is going to be the thing that saves the Deadeye spec if they truly intend range to deal melee level damage. I know it is not there yet, but without kneel, A-net would nerf Deadeye's damage even more. Kneel is our saving grace for damage.

>

> I think the problem here is that it COULD be 'the thing that saves DE', but right now it isn't.

 

It is the thing. No could involved. A-net designed the DE with kneel in mind. They just need to bring the damage up and fix some bugs to make it as good as they planned which will take time. Look at DD, it was awful when it first came out, and now it is decent. The same thing will happen here with DE.

[Zedek.8932]

Excelsior.

 

While I think the numbers should be tweaked a little (I think I "pay" more by being rooted then getting back, either damage-wise or range), the kneeling is actually pretty.. mh.. "fun" to me.

 

Well, there are easthetics and immersion (high on my list), but I like the two-layer sort of gameplay (and I said that already during beta weekend). I'd be a bit upset if kneel is being removed. I am right now getting used to Shadow Step, so I am kneeling, shadow stepping forward, firing a few bullets and then go back to my starting point without breaking anything. It works pretty well so far.

[babazhook.6805]

d. > @Zedek.8932 said:

> Excelsior.

>

> While I think the numbers should be tweaked a little (I think I "pay" more by being rooted then getting back, either damage-wise or range), the kneeling is actually pretty.. mh.. "fun" to me.

>

> Well, there are easthetics and immersion (high on my list), but I like the two-layer sort of gameplay (and I said that already during beta weekend). I'd be a bit upset if kneel is being removed. I am right now getting used to Shadow Step, so I am kneeling, shadow stepping forward, firing a few bullets and then go back to my starting point without breaking anything. It works pretty well so far.

 

I actually find it "fun" too. It is immersive and gives the feel you setting up for that shot.

[Cyprien.4208]

With out kneel the damage would be nerf to account for the fact they don't need to stay in place to shoot.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @babazhook.6805 said:

>As to flinging Immobs left and right. I do this on my p/d build to help counter Daredevils. Use #2 twice and you can burn off two of their dodges. It then becomes much easier to get conditions loaded on such as following up with a steal bomb. I also use to to killd/d DB thieves.

 

That sounds like a PvP issue, and a fairly edge case, at that.

 

>Not everyone takes UC while anyone using the kneel mechanic has the ability to remove those conditions.

 

But at the extreme cost of needing to waste one of their weapon slots on the Rifle.

 

>a Rifle using theif can all but ignore Immobs just as a DD thief can just by using kneel.As a game mechanic kneel is fine. Issues with rifle are elsewhere.

 

But still, a Rifle user being able to ignore Immobs is a fairly tiny benefit compared to the costs. I mean it's a 1500 range weapon anyway, no it's not like Immobs are their worst enemy, and the Thief has plenty of options to move around even while Immobilized. I mean as a freebie, sure, a simple Immob counter is all well and good, but with ANY real cost attached, it's just not worth caring about.

 

> @"Doctor Hide.6345" said:

> Look at DD, it was awful when it first came out, and now it is decent. The same thing will happen here with DE.

 

I loved DD when it first came out. It was a hoot.

 

 

 

> @babazhook.6805 said:

> I actually find it "fun" too. It is immersive and gives the feel you setting up for that shot.

 

I think that I *could* find it to be fun, but only if 1. it were easier to "read" whether you are kneeled or not (the icons shifting are too subtle and you try telling whether an Asura is standing or kneeling from animation alone), 2. The range indicator was up ALL the time, so that I could predict my effective range before kneeling, and 3. they *somehow* make it more natural to get up from kneeling, because right now if feels like taking cover in one of those awful first-gen cover shooters where you just got stuck on terrain and had to fight with it to escape. If I'm kneeling, and my instinct is to move, then I should start moving, not have to hit 5 again before doing so.