Obtena.7952 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > Not the first time you've compared it to paying for groceries, but it's flawed. > > > > > > > > No it's not, because I never made any of the specific and absolutely ridiculous comparisons you have. My comparison is at a MUCH higher level... Anet is a business that charges customers to access their goods and services ... just like ANY OTHER business does. So no, the question here is not why are they charging for this feature ... because being charged for goods and services is a REASONABLE expectation any customer should have when they walk through the door of any business. > > > > > > you don't NEED a shopping cart to carry your groceries, you could carry them in your hands and make multiple trips - and be happy about it, this cart is a convenience and you must pay for goods and services rendered. > > > > I don't know what you are talking about. If you want to talk about groceries ... you go ahead. I'm talking about businesses and how business works. ANY business. > > You're the one that has compared it to not wanting to pay at Walmart (or whatever supermarket/store), in this thread and to me directly in another thread. > I made the comparison between Walmart here because Walmart is a business ... I made no other comparison beyond that. You decided to dig some hole about shopping carts or whatever ... then you proceeded to fall into it and try to drag me with you. Let me know when you get out again. I'm standing at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalec.9853 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > > Not the first time you've compared it to paying for groceries, but it's flawed. > > > > > > > > > > No it's not, because I never made any of the specific and absolutely ridiculous comparisons you have. My comparison is at a MUCH higher level... Anet is a business that charges customers to access their goods and services ... just like ANY OTHER business does. So no, the question here is not why are they charging for this feature ... because being charged for goods and services is a REASONABLE expectation any customer should have when they walk through the door of any business. > > > > > > > > you don't NEED a shopping cart to carry your groceries, you could carry them in your hands and make multiple trips - and be happy about it, this cart is a convenience and you must pay for goods and services rendered. > > > > > > I don't know what you are talking about. If you want to talk about groceries ... you go ahead. I'm talking about businesses and how business works. ANY business. > > > > You're the one that has compared it to not wanting to pay at Walmart (or whatever supermarket/store), in this thread and to me directly in another thread. > > > > Features are the cart, not the groceries > > You don't play the features, you use them to play the game. > > You don't eat the kitten cart, you use it to store the groceries as you collect them in the store - the things that you are paying for. > > Yeah, because Walmart is a business ... I made no other comparison beyond that. You dug some hole about shopping carts ... then proceeded to fall into it. Let me know when you get out again. A business selling groceries, not shopping carts yes, why do you think ArenaNet should be selling "shopping carts" (UI Features) and not "groceries" (content)? I think this is beyond your understanding. I'm sorry. If you don't understand the point then there is no reason to continue, the effort is lost on you. It's not hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > > > Not the first time you've compared it to paying for groceries, but it's flawed. > > > > > > > > > > > > No it's not, because I never made any of the specific and absolutely ridiculous comparisons you have. My comparison is at a MUCH higher level... Anet is a business that charges customers to access their goods and services ... just like ANY OTHER business does. So no, the question here is not why are they charging for this feature ... because being charged for goods and services is a REASONABLE expectation any customer should have when they walk through the door of any business. > > > > > > > > > > you don't NEED a shopping cart to carry your groceries, you could carry them in your hands and make multiple trips - and be happy about it, this cart is a convenience and you must pay for goods and services rendered. > > > > > > > > I don't know what you are talking about. If you want to talk about groceries ... you go ahead. I'm talking about businesses and how business works. ANY business. > > > > > > You're the one that has compared it to not wanting to pay at Walmart (or whatever supermarket/store), in this thread and to me directly in another thread. > > > > > > Features are the cart, not the groceries > > > You don't play the features, you use them to play the game. > > > You don't eat the kitten cart, you use it to store the groceries as you collect them in the store - the things that you are paying for. > > > > Yeah, because Walmart is a business ... I made no other comparison beyond that. You dug some hole about shopping carts ... then proceeded to fall into it. Let me know when you get out again. > > A business selling groceries, not shopping carts yes, why do you think ArenaNet should be selling "shopping carts" (UI Features) and not groceries (content)? > > I think this is beyond your understanding. I'm sorry. It's not beyond my understanding ... you're just making comparisons that had nothing to do with my point, so I'm not going to bother with them. Anet is a business, just like the businesses I referred to ... just like ANY other business, in the sense that they offer goods and services in exchange for money from customers. That's not exceptional, so it's reasonable to expect the same relationship between the customer and Anet as a business as well. Let me know when you cleared the shopping carts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalec.9853 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > > > > Not the first time you've compared it to paying for groceries, but it's flawed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it's not, because I never made any of the specific and absolutely ridiculous comparisons you have. My comparison is at a MUCH higher level... Anet is a business that charges customers to access their goods and services ... just like ANY OTHER business does. So no, the question here is not why are they charging for this feature ... because being charged for goods and services is a REASONABLE expectation any customer should have when they walk through the door of any business. > > > > > > > > > > > > you don't NEED a shopping cart to carry your groceries, you could carry them in your hands and make multiple trips - and be happy about it, this cart is a convenience and you must pay for goods and services rendered. > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you are talking about. If you want to talk about groceries ... you go ahead. I'm talking about businesses and how business works. ANY business. > > > > > > > > You're the one that has compared it to not wanting to pay at Walmart (or whatever supermarket/store), in this thread and to me directly in another thread. > > > > > > > > Features are the cart, not the groceries > > > > You don't play the features, you use them to play the game. > > > > You don't eat the kitten cart, you use it to store the groceries as you collect them in the store - the things that you are paying for. > > > > > > Yeah, because Walmart is a business ... I made no other comparison beyond that. You dug some hole about shopping carts ... then proceeded to fall into it. Let me know when you get out again. > > > > A business selling groceries, not shopping carts yes, why do you think ArenaNet should be selling "shopping carts" (UI Features) and not groceries (content)? > > > > I think this is beyond your understanding. I'm sorry. > > It's not beyond my understanding ... you're just making comparisons that had nothing to do with my point, so I'm not going to bother with them. Anet is a business, just like the businesses I referred to ... just like any other business, in the sense that they offer goods and services in exchange for money from customers. That's not exceptional, so it's reasonable to expect the same for Anet. > > Let me know when you cleared the shopping carts. You're the one that brought up not wanting to pay for groceries in another thread on this feature and again compare it to Walmart and how we expect different just because it's some game dev and we're being unreasonable. But in your world that means when you step into the store you should reasonably expect to pay for using the cart - that is a service provided by the store, even though the thing you are there for is the groceries. But you know this is not the case, and would be absurd to suggest it should be just because it's a service the company provides. (Note: If you actually do have to pay to use a cart where you are from and that's why my comparison is confusing then I'm both shocked and pity you.) The features of the game UI nicely fits the position of the shopping cart at a store in this comparison as it's not the thing you are playing the game for, it's not what you PLAY, you just use it to access, play and enjoy the content of the game - the content is taking the place of the groceries at the store as it's the thing we are here for. Content - to play the damn game. and I'd 100% expect to pay for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > > > > > Not the first time you've compared it to paying for groceries, but it's flawed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it's not, because I never made any of the specific and absolutely ridiculous comparisons you have. My comparison is at a MUCH higher level... Anet is a business that charges customers to access their goods and services ... just like ANY OTHER business does. So no, the question here is not why are they charging for this feature ... because being charged for goods and services is a REASONABLE expectation any customer should have when they walk through the door of any business. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you don't NEED a shopping cart to carry your groceries, you could carry them in your hands and make multiple trips - and be happy about it, this cart is a convenience and you must pay for goods and services rendered. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you are talking about. If you want to talk about groceries ... you go ahead. I'm talking about businesses and how business works. ANY business. > > > > > > > > > > You're the one that has compared it to not wanting to pay at Walmart (or whatever supermarket/store), in this thread and to me directly in another thread. > > > > > > > > > > Features are the cart, not the groceries > > > > > You don't play the features, you use them to play the game. > > > > > You don't eat the kitten cart, you use it to store the groceries as you collect them in the store - the things that you are paying for. > > > > > > > > Yeah, because Walmart is a business ... I made no other comparison beyond that. You dug some hole about shopping carts ... then proceeded to fall into it. Let me know when you get out again. > > > > > > A business selling groceries, not shopping carts yes, why do you think ArenaNet should be selling "shopping carts" (UI Features) and not groceries (content)? > > > > > > I think this is beyond your understanding. I'm sorry. > > > > It's not beyond my understanding ... you're just making comparisons that had nothing to do with my point, so I'm not going to bother with them. Anet is a business, just like the businesses I referred to ... just like any other business, in the sense that they offer goods and services in exchange for money from customers. That's not exceptional, so it's reasonable to expect the same for Anet. > > > > Let me know when you cleared the shopping carts. > > You're the one that brought up not wanting to pay for groceries in another thread on this feature and again compare it to Walmart and how we expect different just because it's some game dev and we're being unreasonable. > > But in your world that means when you step into the store you should reasonably expect to pay for using the cart - that is a service provided by the store, even though the thing you are there for is the groceries. But you know this is not the case, and would be absurd to suggest it should be just because it's a service the company provides. (Note: If you actually do have to pay to use a cart where you are from and that's why my comparison is confusing then I'm both shocked and pity you.) > > The features of the game UI nicely fits the position of the shopping cart at a store in this comparison as it's not the thing you are playing the game for, it's not what you PLAY, you just use it to access, play and enjoy the content of the game - the content is taking the place of the groceries at the store as it's the thing we are here for. Content - to play the kitten game. and I'd 100% expect to pay for No reasonable person would walk into ANY OTHER BUSINESS and expect a whole bunch for free stuff. Somehow you went on some tangent about bags and carts and I'm not getting dragged into whatever you think is some relevant comparison to justify the ridiculous sense you should get things for free. The fact that you focus so much on it s demonstrates you didn't get the point I'm making. People have somehow created this exception ... but there isn't one .... Anet is a business, just like ANY OTHER BUSINESS. It is not unreasonable for Anet to charge people for goods and services and no one should criminalize them for doing so either ... because just like ANY OTHER BUSINESS, you don't walk through their doors and expect a whole bunch of free stuff to rain down on you. See, you don't understand that you ARE paying for these features. Even if Anet just gave them to us without direct costs ... you ARE paying for them. Make absolutely NO mistake that somehow, you pay and I pay and everyone pays ... because if we didn't, this game wouldn't exist. It's astounding to me you think access to these things isn't related to what you play the game for. It sure as hell is ... otherwise people wouldn't be with torches and pitchforks defending the illegal free version they had access to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalec.9853 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > > > > > > > > > Not the first time you've compared it to paying for groceries, but it's flawed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it's not, because I never made any of the specific and absolutely ridiculous comparisons you have. My comparison is at a MUCH higher level... Anet is a business that charges customers to access their goods and services ... just like ANY OTHER business does. So no, the question here is not why are they charging for this feature ... because being charged for goods and services is a REASONABLE expectation any customer should have when they walk through the door of any business. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you don't NEED a shopping cart to carry your groceries, you could carry them in your hands and make multiple trips - and be happy about it, this cart is a convenience and you must pay for goods and services rendered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you are talking about. If you want to talk about groceries ... you go ahead. I'm talking about businesses and how business works. ANY business. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're the one that has compared it to not wanting to pay at Walmart (or whatever supermarket/store), in this thread and to me directly in another thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > Features are the cart, not the groceries > > > > > > You don't play the features, you use them to play the game. > > > > > > You don't eat the kitten cart, you use it to store the groceries as you collect them in the store - the things that you are paying for. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, because Walmart is a business ... I made no other comparison beyond that. You dug some hole about shopping carts ... then proceeded to fall into it. Let me know when you get out again. > > > > > > > > A business selling groceries, not shopping carts yes, why do you think ArenaNet should be selling "shopping carts" (UI Features) and not groceries (content)? > > > > > > > > I think this is beyond your understanding. I'm sorry. > > > > > > It's not beyond my understanding ... you're just making comparisons that had nothing to do with my point, so I'm not going to bother with them. Anet is a business, just like the businesses I referred to ... just like any other business, in the sense that they offer goods and services in exchange for money from customers. That's not exceptional, so it's reasonable to expect the same for Anet. > > > > > > Let me know when you cleared the shopping carts. > > > > You're the one that brought up not wanting to pay for groceries in another thread on this feature and again compare it to Walmart and how we expect different just because it's some game dev and we're being unreasonable. > > > > But in your world that means when you step into the store you should reasonably expect to pay for using the cart - that is a service provided by the store, even though the thing you are there for is the groceries. But you know this is not the case, and would be absurd to suggest it should be just because it's a service the company provides. (Note: If you actually do have to pay to use a cart where you are from and that's why my comparison is confusing then I'm both shocked and pity you.) > > > > The features of the game UI nicely fits the position of the shopping cart at a store in this comparison as it's not the thing you are playing the game for, it's not what you PLAY, you just use it to access, play and enjoy the content of the game - the content is taking the place of the groceries at the store as it's the thing we are here for. Content - to play the kitten game. and I'd 100% expect to pay for > > No reasonable person would walk into ANY OTHER BUSINESS and expect a whole bunch for free stuff. Somehow you went on some tangent about bags and carts and I'm not getting dragged into whatever you think is some relevant comparison to justify the ridiculous sense you should get things for free. The fact that you focus so much on it s demonstrates you didn't get the point I'm making. > > People have somehow created this exception ... but there isn't one .... Anet is a business, just like ANY OTHER BUSINESS. It is not unreasonable for Anet to charge people for goods and services and no one should criminalize them for doing so either ... because just like ANY OTHER BUSINESS, you don't walk through their doors and expect a whole bunch of free stuff to rain down on you. You miss the point, as always Obtena. Are build templates (or any of the other MTX UI Unlocks) the thing you enjoy playing, and the content is just there so you can enjoy using your Templates/extra bags/Bank space? They perfectly fit my example as they are not the thing we are playing for, there is no purpose in the features of a game if there is no gameplay. You do understand that right? If you think all goods and services should be paid for at all businesses no matter if the service is actually what you are a customer of the business for or if it's just a service they provide to "help" you purchase things you can actually gain from them, then you are a lost cause to discuss this matter with. Could you answer one question: the current (awful, but still of value) free content comes under "goods and services" Do you want it to continue to be free? Please answer that, even if you ignore everything else (as always). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Dalec.9853" said: > You miss the point, as always Obtena. Are build templates (or any of the other MTX UI Unlocks) the thing you enjoy playing, and the content is just there so you can enjoy using your Templates/extra bags/Bank space? They perfectly fit my example as they are not the thing we are playing for, there is no purpose in the features of a game if there is no gameplay. You do understand that right? I undrestand it's not relevant when it comes to a business deciding how to charge customers for it's goods and services. You are basing your position on an emotional argument. That doesn't make sense. > > If you think all goods and services should be paid for at all businesses no matter if the service... I don't know where you are getting this from ... I didn't say we should pay for everything no matter what ... I'm saying that it's not unreasonable if we did. It depends on the service or goods and the context. In this context, it's COMPLETELY reasonable for Anet to charge for the templates > > Could you answer one question: the current (awful, but still of value) free content comes under "goods and services" > Do you want it to continue to be free? Please answer that, even if you ignore everything else (as always). I don't get this question ... what 'free content' about you talking about? We don't get free content. Nothing has ever been free. This is why you're whole argument makes no sense. We pay for access to everything. If you think you are getting things for free, you don't understand this business model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalec.9853 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > I don't get this question ... what 'free content' about you talking about? We don't get free content. Nothing has ever been free. This is why you're whole argument makes no sense. We pay for access to everything. If you think you are getting things for free, you don't understand this business model. > Someone new could pay exactly £0 and play the huge core game and first expansion now. They could then pay for the second expansion and then continue to pay £0 beyond that while getting additional content for free - most games do not give additional content without additional cost. The features can't be considered paying for the content as not having them doesn't block access to that content. So going back to what I said to you and your Walmart comparisons: "you don't NEED a shopping cart to carry your groceries, you could carry them in your hands and make multiple trips - and be happy about it, this cart is a convenience and you must pay for goods and services rendered." So if you think the features being on the gemstore is funding the content, then it's like paying for the cart but having free groceries as much as you can fit in! and the loophole is you can skip the cart and carry by hand and pay nothing beyond a onetime membership fee for the store! Not sustainable and not done by the majority of games thankfully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roquen.5406 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jthug.9506" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > This doesn't make sense. Legendary armor has it's functionality. Templates have theirs. There is no reason to expect those to accommodate each other. If legendary armor doesn't function how you want it to with templates, (which remains to be seen IMO) .. then you choose to use templates or not. It doesn't affect you. > > > > > > You're real complaint here is losing Arc ... and it's hard to feel sympathy for that situation since it was not part of GW2. > > > > Are you some sort of anti mod purist? Do you not realize that Arc is sanctioned by ANET? Of course Legendary gear (not just armor I will remind you[trinkets are a bigger problem as you can only make one of each per account]) is going to play nice with templates. What exactly is your issue with the prospect of a shared armory slot for gems? Is that somehow offensive to you? I understand you may not have direct experience with Arc templates as they were, or may have some inherent aversion to addons and mods as a matter of some strange principal. But that shouldn't make you an enemy of FUN. I have fun experimenting with builds using legendary gear. That process would be MUCH better facilitated by an account wide armory, I am willing to pay 10k+ gems for that feature. That's my opinion, you have given me zero reason to think I am wrong. I don't want your sympathy. I want you to consider how I like to play the game and accept that there is at least some legitimacy in doing so. >**Arc was TOLERATED by Anet and that still doesn't change what I said.** > > I have no issue with the prospect of a shared armory other than the fact that we aren't getting that feature; we are getting templates. I guess I'm just more grounded in what is real than imagining what I want is the best thing for Anet to do and never getting it. > > I don't see an issue if some functionality of one game element doesn't work with the functionality of another. You can choose and it cost you nothing because you already do it. I have the same issue with all the character slots I have full to 'swap builds'. **The only problem here is that you have grown to rely on a 3rd party hack ... lesson learned.** Can you tell me where either of the above statements in bold are true? This is from Chris Cleary back when he green-lit Delta's Addons: >Chris Cleary replied: >About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client. >This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat. >I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others). >In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use". >This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon. You called the addon, "TOLERATED" and a "3rd party hack". Where does the developer state this? Do you know better than the Anet's own employee? Because by his own words Chris Cleary, was more than just okay with the addon. He even welcomed others to reach out to him if they wanted to create more addons in the future. In case you want to harp on the last line, that is simply a disclaimer that pretty much anything you ever use or buy has. Much like if you open up your own product (let's say your TV and you break the warranty seal, the company is not liable for any damage that you may cause). Apologies for the edits, was having formatting issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > I don't get this question ... what 'free content' about you talking about? We don't get free content. Nothing has ever been free. This is why you're whole argument makes no sense. We pay for access to everything. If you think you are getting things for free, you don't understand this business model. > > > Someone new could pay exactly £0 and play the huge core game and first expansion now. They could then pay for the second expansion and then continue to pay £0 beyond that while getting additional content for free - most games do not give additional content without additional cost. The features can't be considered paying for the content as not having them doesn't block access to that content. Right ... that's Anet's decision ... again, I'm not going to say we have to pay for everything. I'm saying it's not unreasonable that we do. I've paid for everything i have access to in this game. The fact that Anet decided to allow some F2P elements is NOT a precedent for an argument that some services they offer should be free. Again ... if a business had a promotion to give you something for free when you walk through the door ... you think that should imply other things in the store should be free to? That's just nonsense. The decision to give people those free accesses ... were based on a business consideration ... the SAME considerations that lead the SAME company to decide that we should pay for templates. We pay for things and what we pay for, WHATEVER it is, is not some unreasonable business practice .. every single player should go into this customer/business relationship as they would ANY OTHER ... with the expectation that you will pay for the goods and services being offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Roquen.5406" said: > You called the addon, "TOLERATED" and a "3rd party hack". Where does the developer state this? Do you know better than the Anet's own employee? Because by his own words Chris Cleary, was more than just okay with the addon. He even welcomed others to reach out to him if they wanted to create more addons in the future. > > In case you want to harp on the last line, that is simply a disclaimer that pretty much anything you ever use or buy has. Much like if you open up your own product (let's say your TV and you break the warranty seal, the company is not liable for any damage that you may cause). > > Apologies for the edits, was having formatting issues. That doesn't change what I said ... it's a tolerated 3rd party '**whatever you want to call it**'. It wasn't supported by the game. See the funny part is this ... you got no problem with how Anet interacted with this ARC UNTIL you weren't able to use it anymore ... now it's big bad Anet. Way to flip the coin to whatever your argument is. You're just ungrateful that Anet tolerated this whatever for as long as they did for the benefit of the customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roquen.5406 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Roquen.5406" said: > > You called the addon, "TOLERATED" and a "3rd party hack". Where does the developer state this? Do you know better than the Anet's own employee? Because by his own words Chris Cleary, was more than just okay with the addon. He even welcomed others to reach out to him if they wanted to create more addons in the future. > > > > In case you want to harp on the last line, that is simply a disclaimer that pretty much anything you ever use or buy has. Much like if you open up your own product (let's say your TV and you break the warranty seal, the company is not liable for any damage that you may cause). > > > > Apologies for the edits, was having formatting issues. > > That doesn't change what I said ... it's a tolerated 3rd party '**whatever you want to call it**'. It wasn't supported by the game. I think you are mistaken. There were two developers that made a similar addon. One had his addon banned because he refused to remove aspects that were not considered appropriate for the game. The other, Delta, worked with Chris Cleary to make sure everything was Kosher, for lack of a better word. The addon was green-lit for use. However, they were not offering official support if you ran into problems while using the addon. So, in the event it magically broke your game, that's on you. That is what that disclaimer tells you. It's clear you have something against the addon, which is fine because you can have your opinion but don't spin it as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 There isn't any mistake ... Clearly the fact that those other similar add ons were banned indicate that Anet tolerated ARC because they came to an agreement to allow it. And no ... that doesn't mean Arc was supported by the game .. it practically broke every time Anet did a patch. These aren't 'opinions'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roquen.5406 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > There isn't any mistake ... Clearly the fact that those other similar add ons were banned indicate that Anet tolerated ARC because they came to an agreement. And no ... that doesn't mean Arc was supported by the game .. it practically broke every time Anet did a patch. These aren't 'opinions'. When you register an account to play this game, you sign an agreement that as long as you are compliant with Anet's rules and guidelines you can play the game. When you break those you get banned. So once you decide to buy gold from a third party seller, cheat, hack, share accounts, your agreement is null and void and they can and will ban you. Does this mean you are only tolerated the entire time you play the game? This situation is no different. When Anet puts in a new build you are forced to log out to update a new build. If you don't, you can't play with other players, join a new instance, have them join you, you can't leave the area, or do things where there have been updates until you log out and patch the game. Arc having to update when new patches hit is no different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 You seem to think arguing semantics about words leads to the conclusion Anet is wrong here. That isn't the case. I'm not getting into an academic argument about what words you think are appropriate. That doesn't change the fact that as a business, Anet is free to decide what we pay for and as customers, we are free to decide if we purchase those things. There is NO ARGUMENT that will change that fact. The idea that people exchange money for goods and services are well establish business processes globally for thousands of years. If anything you present suggests it's not reasonable for this relationship to also exist between Anet and it's customers .. you are WRONG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roquen.5406 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > You seem to think arguing semantics about words leads to the conclusion Anet is wrong here. That isn't the case. I'm not getting into an academic argument about what words you think are appropriate. That doesn't change the fact that as a business, Anet is free to decide what we pay for and as customers, we are free to decide if we purchase those things. Why did you side-step my responses to you and change the subject? Where did I say Anet is wrong? I am saying in this case _you_ are wrong. You are stating your opinion as fact even when Anet doesn't agree with you. You are holding a stance that Anet does not hold. But to answer you, I have no problem with them charging for things. In fact most people don't. The problem people have is HOW they charge or implement things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetalGirl.2370 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > You seem to think arguing semantics about words leads to the conclusion Anet is wrong here. That isn't the case. I'm not getting into an academic argument about what words you think are appropriate. That doesn't change the fact that as a business, Anet is free to decide what we pay for and as customers, we are free to decide if we purchase those things. > > There is NO ARGUMENT that will change that fact. The idea that people exchange money for goods and services are well establish business processes globally for thousands of years. If anything you present suggests it's not reasonable for this relationship to also exist between Anet and it's customers .. you are WRONG. When will you snap out of your endless loop "Anet is bussiness, must pay for services", you're continuously being told that you don't get it, but you still keep going... Unfortunately my last reply about you being a traumatized cashier got removed, but that's fine. > @"Roquen.5406" > Why did you side-step my responses to you and change the subject? That's what he always does if you look at any of his previous posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoRi Silvia.4159 Posted October 18, 2019 Author Share Posted October 18, 2019 This kitten thread is getting way out of hand Can we please get back to how much gems you think the build templates will be Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taygus.4571 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 "If a shop wants to sell a loaf of bread for 10 pound, that's their right and you can't call them out for unfair price practices" . lel, Obtena, essentially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Taygus.4571" said: > "If a shop wants to sell a loaf of bread for 10 pound, that's their right and you can't call them out for unfair price practices" . There isn't a problem with that .. there are LOTS of places to buy bread if you didn't like that one. Again, you pretend like this customer/business relationship is somehow flawed after thousands of years of being used ... so what Anet is doing is flawed or unreasonable. That's not the case. Anyways ... the reasonable price seems to be in the 400-600 gems range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taygus.4571 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 and people have always called out business practices that are unfair or wrong. We even have laws and regulations to ensure fair practices. These haven't entirely reached the digital realm...but they will, in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roquen.5406 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Taygus.4571" said: > > "If a shop wants to sell a loaf of bread for 10 pound, that's their right and you can't call them out for unfair price practices" . > > There isn't a problem with that .. there are LOTS of places to buy bread if you didn't like that one. Again, you pretend like this customer/business relationship is somehow flawed after thousands of years of being used ... so what Anet is doing is flawed or unreasonable. That's not the case. > > Anyways ... the reasonable price seems to be in the 400-600 gems range. What happens when a business refuses to learn from past mistakes? Sure, I can charge a billion dollars for whatever I want. Does that mean it's a good idea to? You can split templates into 3 separate pay walls, per character and have 5% of the playerbase participate. Or you can release templates in a similar fashion to the way Delta had them, simple templates without the extra storage with 1 pay wall, per slot per account and have maybe 30-50% of the playerbase participate. Which one do you think would leave more satisfaction for the customers? If you are thinking long term, the more customers you keep satisfied the more they are likely to stay, invest, and even bring in others to do the same. Sure, you can price-gouge every step of the way but is that really what you should be doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1508 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Dalec.9853" said: > > Not the first time you've compared it to paying for groceries, but it's flawed. > > No it's not, because I never made any of the specific and absolutely ridiculous comparisons you are presenting in your post that you are implying I have. My comparison is at a MUCH higher level... Anet is a business that charges customers to access their goods and services ... just like ANY OTHER business does. So no, the question here is not why are they charging for this feature ... because being charged for goods and services is a REASONABLE expectation any customer should have when they walk through the door of any business. Groceries are needed to survive this is not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 > @"Roquen.5406" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Taygus.4571" said: > > > "If a shop wants to sell a loaf of bread for 10 pound, that's their right and you can't call them out for unfair price practices" . > > > > There isn't a problem with that .. there are LOTS of places to buy bread if you didn't like that one. Again, you pretend like this customer/business relationship is somehow flawed after thousands of years of being used ... so what Anet is doing is flawed or unreasonable. That's not the case. > > > > Anyways ... the reasonable price seems to be in the 400-600 gems range. > > What happens when a business refuses to learn from past mistakes? Lots of bad things .. but what is Anet doing here that they haven't done before? Nothing. This isn't the first time we have seen these kinds of features offered in this way. As much as you try, there isn't anything exceptional here. It's VERY standard practice. If what they have done in the past is representative of 'past mistakes' ... then I hope Anet keeps making them, because it works based on thousands of years of business practice and the 7 years this game has been in service. If you are going to argue that there are all these mistakes made .. then you are going to have to do that in the face of 7 years of Anet developing this game. That's a contradiction you have no explanation for ... other than you are wrong and that the mistakes (however many or severe) aren't as game destroying as you would like us all to believe. An argument based on fearmongering is not going to be more compelling than the history of this game and Anet doing things that work for them. The worst part is that as much as you spin on about how much you know ... you completely ignore the reality of what is right in front of you. No, there isn't some mistake being made here; this is VERY typical approach for offering this kind of a feature, PERIOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1508 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Flat price of 100gems for all seems accurate.. as i wont be buying many i cant see them being over 800g as i can buy a new character for that. I never used mods either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts