GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > > I already posted, numerous times if I may add, why changing this policy cannot happen, and why the implementation of the tool is the way it is. I also clearly explained that the alternatives have their own important issues. I even gave the only possible solution: for Anet to create such a tool. > > > Discussing the implementation is pointless due to technical reasons. If they changed their policy they'd need to create a tool themselves, to bypass the shortcomings of any other implementation. The more important one being a tool running on your own computer, so it doesn't "know" when someone gives consent or not. > > > > > > Therefore the question is "Will (Should) Anet create their own dps meter?" > > > > Any technical problems are for 3rd party dev to be resolved after the policy is changed. His tool is not required for the game to run or its integrity. If dev can't make his tool compliant to the rules, the tool would be forbidden under he abides to the rules or new, better 3rd party dev presents new, compliant tool. > > Thats implying they should change their policy in the first place. > You're talking like it "had" to happen but you would need to convince people as to why in the first place. You cant always hide behind security of information non sense. This is what this whole thread is about, if you missed big post at the beginning and even the title. I'm asking for the change and give you reasons why. Why are you surprised I'm talking about this in the thread I created to talk about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > > > > > > You were heading in the right direction. However, the game doesn't tell you YOU must meet the requirements the Players are. > > > > > > And those players have every right to set requirements on which player to play with. It's their time after all isn't it? > > > > Again, META Build is not a requirement for purchasing & playing the game. This is player driven. > > Again, it's my time. If I want to play with folks using meta builds, that's my decision. You don't get to make it, ANet's marketing doesn't get to make it, Angela Merkel doesn't get to make it, I and only I do. And if you're not willing to do so, you won't be playing with me. Get that already. It doesn't matter if I kick you or I leave, you won't be in my party. If you want to play it your way - which you have every right to do - do it in another party. Why is that simple concept so hard to grasp? Exactly. Hence why its easy to assume that people not agreeing with your statement are only trying to get carried. Because what you said is the essence of LFG, always have been, and you can't invoke moral or sensibilities or whatever to bypass that simple idea that players arent forced to play with someone they dont want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > I already posted, numerous times if I may add, why changing this policy cannot happen, and why the implementation of the tool is the way it is. I also clearly explained that the alternatives have their own important issues. I even gave the only possible solution: for Anet to create such a tool. > > Discussing the implementation is pointless due to technical reasons. If they changed their policy they'd need to create a tool themselves, to bypass the shortcomings of any other implementation. The more important one being a tool running on your own computer, so it doesn't "know" when someone gives consent or not. > > > > Therefore the question is "Will (Should) Anet create their own dps meter?" > > Any technical problems are for 3rd party dev to be resolved after the policy is changed. His tool is not required for the game to run or its integrity. If dev can't make his tool compliant to the rules, the tool would be forbidden under he abides to the rules or new, better 3rd party dev presents new, compliant tool. So what happened to "I don't want to remove dps meters"? You do understand that 1) If the current tools are none-compliant there won't be any dps meters around meaning they will be essentially removed, at least until something changes 2) It might not be possible to create a tool that can check for consent without serious issues with it, or it might have other penalties that many players don't like, meaning once again, removal of the dps meters I for one refuse to run a dps meter on my own computer and ArcDPS allows me to get parsed results after runs by another person who runs it. This is my prime reason for liking ArcDPS over BGDM which needed to be run on my computer to count my data. If I had to run it, it will be removed for me. There are a lot of other consequences that I already covered in previous posts, in order to make the tool "compliant" you essentially remove it. And please don't answer that someone can find a way to make it work because it's an impossibility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belorn.2659 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I don't find the requirements that vague. If you join a __fractal group__ and sit idle in the the whole time, you are technically not violating the explicit LF requirements but using common sense you are violating the implicit requirements that a fractal group want to finish a fractal and not just idle and do nothing. The implicit requirements is that each member contribute to the group in some form or other, which generally means damage, support, or at minimum staying alive and ressing the other team members. I have seen people being kicked because "the class you bring don't have support, dps tool report less than 1k, and we are spending most of our time ressing you". Seems fair to me during CM and when LFG ask for experienced player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > So what happened to "I don't want to remove dps meters"? I'm not against the tool. After policy is changed the tool should show you personal DPS only until dev finds a way to make it compliant to new rules to allow other members of the group to share their dps. It's on the dev to be compliant to the rules, not ArenaNet to create rules that fir 3rd party tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiamu.8295 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconut.7082 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > So what happened to "I don't want to remove dps meters"? > > I'm not against the tool. After policy is changed the tool should show you personal DPS only until dev finds a way to make it compliant to new rules to allow other members of the group to share their dps. It's on the dev to be compliant to the rules, not ArenaNet to create rules that fir 3rd party tool. I have yet to get an answer from you which is odd, because you are fighting against these problems so you shouldn't have an issue to list some of them >Can you specify what problems can be caused by ArcDPS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda.1967 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Belorn.2659 said: > I don't find the requirements that vague. If you join a __fractal group__ and sit idle in the the whole time, you are technically not violating the explicit LF requirements but using common sense you are violating the implicit requirements that a fractal group want to finish a fractal and not just idle and do nothing. The implicit requirements is that each member contribute to the group in some form or other, which generally means damage, support, or at minimum staying alive and ressing the other team members. I have seen people being kicked because "the class you bring don't have support, dps tool report less than 1k, and we are spending most of our time ressing you". Seems fair to me. What you describe is a common sense scenario. If someone is legitimately leeching, you have every right to kick them. If someone is legitimately making the run harder for everyone, you have every right to kick them. But when someone is simply underperforming, but the run is still going successfully with only a few slight hiccups here and there, that's just the nature of PUGs. In all honesty, it's a waste of your time, and the time of the person you kick when you kick someone from a run that would have still been successful over a few minor mistakes or not doing insanely high DPS. The time it can take to find a replacement and complete the run will usually exceed amount of time it would have taken to just complete the run in the first place. When you go to LFG, you sign up for a degree of randomness, that's just a fact of reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > So what happened to "I don't want to remove dps meters"? > > I'm not against the tool. After policy is changed the tool should show you personal DPS only until dev finds a way to make it compliant to new rules to allow other members of the group to share their dps. It's on the dev to be compliant to the rules, not ArenaNet to create rules that fir 3rd party tool. Funfact the Policy doesn’t need to change and the tools are compliant to the rules. Again quit trying to say your account is being monitored-it is not. Quit saying you never give consent- you know the policy and join groups shows you give consent. Your Combat data is not Personal or private-it is public. No invasion of privacy is happening, no nefarious account monitoring or hacking is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > > > > I already posted, numerous times if I may add, why changing this policy cannot happen, and why the implementation of the tool is the way it is. I also clearly explained that the alternatives have their own important issues. I even gave the only possible solution: for Anet to create such a tool. > > > > Discussing the implementation is pointless due to technical reasons. If they changed their policy they'd need to create a tool themselves, to bypass the shortcomings of any other implementation. The more important one being a tool running on your own computer, so it doesn't "know" when someone gives consent or not. > > > > > > > > Therefore the question is "Will (Should) Anet create their own dps meter?" > > > > > > Any technical problems are for 3rd party dev to be resolved after the policy is changed. His tool is not required for the game to run or its integrity. If dev can't make his tool compliant to the rules, the tool would be forbidden under he abides to the rules or new, better 3rd party dev presents new, compliant tool. > > > > Thats implying they should change their policy in the first place. > > You're talking like it "had" to happen but you would need to convince people as to why in the first place. You cant always hide behind security of information non sense. > > This is what this whole thread is about, if you missed big post at the beginning and even the title. I'm asking for the change and give you reasons why. Why are you surprised I'm talking about this in the thread I created to talk about this? I am only surprised at how much you're ignoring answers given to you and keep talking about anet purposely feeding data to let tools spy and people. No. I dont agree that we should get asked upon entering a group if the game should share data with other party members. Thats the essence of mmos, you interact with others. No. I do not agree with your definition of behavior data as being a privacy/security issue. People only see a pseudonyme and not a name / address of other party members you agreed on partying with. No dps meters arent getting more information. Its getting whats already there. Obviously. People will visually see what you do, what skills you use, everything. And arc will translate that into numbers. Big brother mystery solved. All your promise points are wrong, therefore your request is non sense. Its like you're trying to use mmo concepts of PLAYING with others as an excuse to bring up security/privacy concerns. Dont play the game if thats gonna be an issue for you, but dont hide behind false concerns just because you dont want dps meters. This thread is becoming a meme because of ridicously far its gotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kiamu.8295 said: > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? Okay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > > > > > > I already posted, numerous times if I may add, why changing this policy cannot happen, and why the implementation of the tool is the way it is. I also clearly explained that the alternatives have their own important issues. I even gave the only possible solution: for Anet to create such a tool. > > > > > Discussing the implementation is pointless due to technical reasons. If they changed their policy they'd need to create a tool themselves, to bypass the shortcomings of any other implementation. The more important one being a tool running on your own computer, so it doesn't "know" when someone gives consent or not. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore the question is "Will (Should) Anet create their own dps meter?" > > > > > > > > Any technical problems are for 3rd party dev to be resolved after the policy is changed. His tool is not required for the game to run or its integrity. If dev can't make his tool compliant to the rules, the tool would be forbidden under he abides to the rules or new, better 3rd party dev presents new, compliant tool. > > > > > > Thats implying they should change their policy in the first place. > > > You're talking like it "had" to happen but you would need to convince people as to why in the first place. You cant always hide behind security of information non sense. > > > > This is what this whole thread is about, if you missed big post at the beginning and even the title. I'm asking for the change and give you reasons why. Why are you surprised I'm talking about this in the thread I created to talk about this? > > I am only surprised at how much you're ignoring answers given to you and keep talking about anet purposely feeding data to let tools spy and people. > > No. I dont agree that we should get asked upon entering a group if the game should share data with other party members. Thats the essence of mmos, you interact with others. > No. I do not agree with your definition of behavior data as being a privacy/security issue. People only see a pseudonyme and not a name / address of other party members you agreed on partying with. > No dps meters arent getting more information. Its getting whats already there. Obviously. People will visually see what you do, what skills you use, everything. And arc will translate that into numbers. Big brother mystery solved. > > All your promise points are wrong, therefore your request is non sense. > > Its like you're trying to use mmo concepts of PLAYING with others as an excuse to bring up security/privacy concerns. Dont play the game if thats gonna be an issue for you, but dont hide behind false concerns just because you dont want dps meters. > > This thread is becoming a meme because of ridicously far its gotten. Thank you for your input and sharing your opinions with me. I acknowledge you do not agree with me. Still I'm going to reply and help people interested understand my case and I still believe this policy should be changed for reason I provided multiple times. This is not about proving you anything, this is a discussion about the policy that conflicts with player interests and is most likely unapplicable because we never agreed to use ArcDPS by default or to share our data with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked > > Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? > Okay... I could consider this as valid argument. You cannot make any reasonable assumption in team scenario (whether is it 5, 10 or 50 people) because of how damage is presented in game. You can't use your combat log or damage numbers to single out every player and tell him what dps said player is doing, what is his boon uptime etc. Meanwhile ArcDPS allows it so it creates unfair advantage. I'm not sure I agree with this but this is something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aenaos.8160 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** If you want privacy,you don't play a online game on public servers. You are not providing any short of behavioural personal data. And you don't own the data that the game server creates as a result of your interactions in and within a online game,regarding that game and that game only. The data sent from the server to clients is not personal data. It's the result of computations made on the server after processing the client data,and it is public. Public is the opposite of private. The meter simply collects the publicly broadcast data and presents it in a more comprehensive,easier to read form,for the user. You are not asked to consent to anything because you don't have to consent to nothing. Nobody has to ask for your permission to get the data sent from the server,because it's already being sent as a function of the game. The tool is just making it easier for other players in your group to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > This is not about proving you anything, this is a discussion about the policy that conflicts with player interests and is most likely unapplicable because we never agreed to use ArcDPS by default or to share our data with it. There you go ignoring facts again. You are not defending "players" interests. You're defending your own flawed vision. This is a lost cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > > > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked > > > > Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? > > Okay... > > I could consider this as valid argument. You cannot make any reasonable assumption in team scenario (whether is it 5, 10 or 50 people) because of how damage is presented in game. You can't use your combat log or damage numbers to single out every player and tell him what dps said player is doing, what is his boon uptime etc. Meanwhile ArcDPS allows it so it creates unfair advantage. I'm not sure I agree with this but this is something to think about. That’s not an advantage over any other player, and you can generally see who is underperforming in group content. And without Meters people will get kicked by that or based on feeling and then go back to only certain classes being allowed into groups based on feelings and not actual public data. I need more misinformation to dismantle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > > > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked > > > > Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? > > Okay... > > I could consider this as valid argument. You cannot make any reasonable assumption in team scenario (whether is it 5, 10 or 50 people) because of how damage is presented in game. You can't use your combat log or damage numbers to single out every player and tell him what dps said player is doing, what is his boon uptime etc. Meanwhile ArcDPS allows it so it creates unfair advantage. I'm not sure I agree with this but this is something to think about. Making assumptions about how a game went has NOTHING to do with giving an advantage in battle! You won't personally win more because of that tool ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Sagramor.7395 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > > > > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > > > > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > > > > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > > > > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > Could you cite a game that does allow dps meters and/or other displays of "behavioral data" where players must agree to have said behavioral data be viewed by other players? > > The case is that GW2 shares this data with 3rd party tool without our consent or knowledge its happening and refuses to take responsibility for possible harm by this tool. If ArenaNet provided in-game DPS meter that processes data within game client and ArenaNet servers, this would be no issue. You've got this all backwards. You gave consent for the data to be collected and used. The meter just takes publicly available data and arranges it into a form you can read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > > > > You were heading in the right direction. However, the game doesn't tell you YOU must meet the requirements the Players are. > > > > And those players have every right to set requirements on which player to play with. It's their time after all isn't it? > > Again, META Build is not a requirement for purchasing & playing the game. This is player driven. Exactly, and as a player you can choose to not play in groups that want to use meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiamu.8295 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked > > Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? > Okay... you clearly did not read that correctly, ok let me explain it again how I see it. 4 ppl in a group lets say players a, b, c vote to kick d because of low dps ... clearly that gave an advantage to players a, b & c to get someone else for higher dps. the dps meter is according to Anet is "NOT" supposed to give an advantage to others. now I can see if you want to kick someone for being a slacker and trying to get a free ride ... fine by me however if the group is doing ok and moving right along then whats the point of kicking that one person if that one person was keeping up but not as up to par as he or she could be doing? Thats whay I hate dps meters ... they were used as a tool to be hostile to other ppl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > > > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked > > > > Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? > > Okay... > > you clearly did not read that correctly You could just say we have a different interpretation of the policy. I don't happen to agree with yours. Whatever. This is just one more of these arguments that are gonna make people even more suspicious as to why one would want to hide their poor performance when joining hard content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rennie.6750 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > > > > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > > > > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > > > > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > > > > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws. > > > > People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism. > > People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they? They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whining. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and there's a chance they keep the moaning to themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiamu.8295 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > > > > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked > > > > > > Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? > > > Okay... > > > > you clearly did not read that correctly > > You could just say we have a different interpretation of the policy. I don't happen to agree with yours. > > Whatever. This is just one more of these arguments that are gonna make people even more suspicious as to why one would want to hide their poor performance when joining hard content. sorry I edited my post here is the edit 4 ppl in a group lets say players a, b, c vote to kick d because of low dps ... clearly that gave an advantage to players a, b & c to get someone else for higher dps. the dps meter according to Anet is "NOT" supposed to give an advantage to others. now I can see if you want to kick someone for being a slacker and trying to get a free ride ... fine by me however if the group is doing ok and moving right along then whats the point of kicking that one person if that one person was keeping up but not as up to par as he or she could be doing? Thats why I hate dps meters ... they were used as a tool to be hostile to other ppl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoNS.3261 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 @Kheldorn.5123 what do you expect to happen, can anet change a third party program ? no, and they cant force the players to use the potential new meter that fits your specifications. i see often enough people breaking rules in raids and using meter with gear check in raids why ? because they can and they dont care about your personal information. i reported those guys but since i still see them playing you figure out the rest :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > > > > > > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > > > > > > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > > > > > > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > > > > > > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > > > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws. > > > > > > People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism. > > > > People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they? > > They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves. its really a culture thing, if the game develops a culture where everyone treats everything as a competition and everyone measures and compares numbers rather than look at group ups as a pleasure for its own sake then you end up with WOW levels of toxicity. You can manage this culture by preventing certain tooling that is in fact focused on measurement within a competitive environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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