DPS meter policy needs to be revised

[Paladine.6082]

> @Coconut.7082 said:

> > @Paladine.6082 said:

> > > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > >

> > > > @Paladine.6082 said:

> > >

> > > > I work in privacy for a living at a very high level (I helped draft the upcoming ePrivacy Regulation in the EU and am actually in Brussels next week for more discussions at the European Parliament) and have been advocating stronger digital privacy for a very long time - so I found your post interesting. I think the arguments you raised are completely valid (and as a condi warrior in full ascended I am not concerned about my DPS being "poor") and that this type of activity is an infringement of a player's privacy.

> > > >

> > > > I can also tell you as a fact that gamer privacy is a focus with legislators in Europe and that technically under Article 5(3) of 2002/58/EC this type of activity would already fall foul of European law as this makes it unlawful to gain access to any information on an end user's terminal equipment without consent - given the data for DPS meters is generated on the end user's terminal equipment it is pretty clear cut.

> > > >

> > > > Also Article 10 of the upcoming ePrivacy Regulation in Europe has a requirement for software to have privacy built in (by design) and for it to be the default setting - so arguably the developer of ArcDPS would be required to ensure that a: users of the software are not able to see other users' DPS without consent; and b: privacy settings are enabled by default.

> > >

> > > Every day the EU proves to me it needs to go. What exactly gives you the right to tell DPS meter devs how they must design their programs? Which political party ran on a campaign to ban DPS meters and was voted into office? Does Junker play GW2 and do terrible DPS? If none of these can be answered could you explain how you could be so bad at writing legislation that DPS meters would be caught up in a digital privacy bill?

> > >

> > > Well done EU.. Coming down on the side of stiffling creativity and endeavour once more (colour me shocked *cough*)..

> >

> > Are you trolling here or are you really that ignorant?

> >

> > 1. MEPs are voted into office and are one of the three legislative bodies in the EU (the European Commission and the Council of the EU are the other 2).

> > 2. The law does not target DPS meters or make DPS meters illegal - it regulates the processing of personal data and provides 6 legal basis for processing personal data in order to a: safeguard your fundamental rights which were again created by elected officials; and b: enable companies to conduct business in a legal fashion.

> > 3. Every single law the EU creates goes through a significantly long period of public consultation. You and EVERY OTHER person in Europe has full access rights to that process and can lobby to have the law shaped to their ideology. In the case of GDPR the first draft was leaked in December 2011 and it was not finalised until spring 2016 - that means you had almost 5 years to engage in the process and help shape the law - if you didn't that is not anyone else's fault but you own (I did).

> > 4. I am not paid by the EU to write laws - I write laws by engaging in the democratic process, attending consultations, roundtables, submitting amendments, lobbying - all at my own expense as a responsible citizen engaging in my democratic rights.

> >

> > So in future before blowing smoke out of your kitten - perhaps it would be wise to do a little research instead of making yourself look like a complete buffoon making unqualified and completely false public statements. I bet you voted for Brexit too...

>

> Hey there, glad to see you're back!

> I'd love to hear a lawyers opinion about the following matter:

>

> >Here's a scenario for you:

> >I walk around Kessex Hiils and see you engaging in an epic battle with the vicious Spider Queen.

> >I proceed to come closer and monitor your actions by the animations and icons presented to me by the game. Since I prepared for this day in advanced, I already know the >Health and Toughness of the Spider Queen, which I calculated the other day by simply hitting her and comparing the percentage of her HP.

> >Now I take all the data in my possession and use it together with the publicly known skill coefficients & damage formulas to estimate your stats & effective power.

> >Now that I know your stats, I have the power to follow you anywhere and estimate your DPS judging only by the skill animations, buffs & effects that I see!

>

> >All that done by simply analyzing the data publicly given to me by the game, without any 3rd party programs.

>

> >Am I invading your private data by doing so?

 

So go hire a lawyer...

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @Belorn.2659 said:

> > @Paladine.6082 said:

> > I can also tell you as a fact that gamer privacy is a focus with legislators in Europe and that technically under Article 5(3) of 2002/58/EC this type of activity would already fall foul of European law as this makes it unlawful to gain access to any information on an end user's terminal equipment without consent - given the data for DPS meters is generated on the end user's terminal equipment it is pretty clear cut.

>

> This is false. The information is not accessed from other end user terminals. __Each client emulate what every other player do to the boss and there is no client to client communication involved__. It is similar to emulated car traffic in big simulation, which is different from real time spying on drivers. EU law do not forbid simulations, even if it emulated behavior of real people. Similar DPS meters only measure the emulated actions which their own client is reconstructing based on server information.

>

> For us older players who been here since gw1, I would like to remind people of the old spectator mode in gw1 GvG. If you recall, battles was stored but had imperfect information about player action and movement. Occasionally the script went off record and did things which the players themselves never did. The reason is that the server only recorded action that happened like "player X got hit by skill y" and "player Z used skill y". The client then guess that the likely order of events is that player Z moved into range of X, used skill Y within mana limits, and X got hit. The benefit was that the servers used less traffic, used less processing power, and gave less laggt game play. GW2 is largely based on GW1, and is a large reason why most people don't experience daily lag issues.

 

Thing is, that all you mention here is part of the game, under control of Anet and they take responsibility for these tools. ArcDPS is 3rd party app that ArenaNet allow players to use but takes no responsibility for any damage caused by this tool. That being said I feel I have very right to expect ArenaNet to allow me to choose whether or not my account is being monitored of this tool. Currently, I have no such option and I am forced to assume everyone is using it. And yet, they claim to take no responsibility. This is why I think their policy should change. I have nothing against this tool.

[Vova.2640]

A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @Vova.2640 said:

> A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

 

Combat Meters only showed grouped players Combat data, consent is given upon grouping with others.

[TexZero.7910]

> @Vova.2640 said:

> A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

 

Hello, basic game knowledge here.

 

A mob must report its current HP/Status to everyone in the zone or else .... Guess what happens ? No combat can occur.

 

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > @Vova.2640 said:

> > A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> > Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> > There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

>

> Combat Meters only showed grouped players Combat data, consent is given upon grouping with others.

 

This is current policy and this thread is challenging its premise with request of change. No need to repeat yourself all the time. We know what policy is.

[Coconut.7082]

> @Paladine.6082 said:

> > @Coconut.7082 said:

> > > @Paladine.6082 said:

> > > > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > > >

> > > > > @Paladine.6082 said:

> > > >

> > > > > I work in privacy for a living at a very high level (I helped draft the upcoming ePrivacy Regulation in the EU and am actually in Brussels next week for more discussions at the European Parliament) and have been advocating stronger digital privacy for a very long time - so I found your post interesting. I think the arguments you raised are completely valid (and as a condi warrior in full ascended I am not concerned about my DPS being "poor") and that this type of activity is an infringement of a player's privacy.

> > > > >

> > > > > I can also tell you as a fact that gamer privacy is a focus with legislators in Europe and that technically under Article 5(3) of 2002/58/EC this type of activity would already fall foul of European law as this makes it unlawful to gain access to any information on an end user's terminal equipment without consent - given the data for DPS meters is generated on the end user's terminal equipment it is pretty clear cut.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also Article 10 of the upcoming ePrivacy Regulation in Europe has a requirement for software to have privacy built in (by design) and for it to be the default setting - so arguably the developer of ArcDPS would be required to ensure that a: users of the software are not able to see other users' DPS without consent; and b: privacy settings are enabled by default.

> > > >

> > > > Every day the EU proves to me it needs to go. What exactly gives you the right to tell DPS meter devs how they must design their programs? Which political party ran on a campaign to ban DPS meters and was voted into office? Does Junker play GW2 and do terrible DPS? If none of these can be answered could you explain how you could be so bad at writing legislation that DPS meters would be caught up in a digital privacy bill?

> > > >

> > > > Well done EU.. Coming down on the side of stiffling creativity and endeavour once more (colour me shocked *cough*)..

> > >

> > > Are you trolling here or are you really that ignorant?

> > >

> > > 1. MEPs are voted into office and are one of the three legislative bodies in the EU (the European Commission and the Council of the EU are the other 2).

> > > 2. The law does not target DPS meters or make DPS meters illegal - it regulates the processing of personal data and provides 6 legal basis for processing personal data in order to a: safeguard your fundamental rights which were again created by elected officials; and b: enable companies to conduct business in a legal fashion.

> > > 3. Every single law the EU creates goes through a significantly long period of public consultation. You and EVERY OTHER person in Europe has full access rights to that process and can lobby to have the law shaped to their ideology. In the case of GDPR the first draft was leaked in December 2011 and it was not finalised until spring 2016 - that means you had almost 5 years to engage in the process and help shape the law - if you didn't that is not anyone else's fault but you own (I did).

> > > 4. I am not paid by the EU to write laws - I write laws by engaging in the democratic process, attending consultations, roundtables, submitting amendments, lobbying - all at my own expense as a responsible citizen engaging in my democratic rights.

> > >

> > > So in future before blowing smoke out of your kitten - perhaps it would be wise to do a little research instead of making yourself look like a complete buffoon making unqualified and completely false public statements. I bet you voted for Brexit too...

> >

> > Hey there, glad to see you're back!

> > I'd love to hear a lawyers opinion about the following matter:

> >

> > >Here's a scenario for you:

> > >I walk around Kessex Hiils and see you engaging in an epic battle with the vicious Spider Queen.

> > >I proceed to come closer and monitor your actions by the animations and icons presented to me by the game. Since I prepared for this day in advanced, I already know the >Health and Toughness of the Spider Queen, which I calculated the other day by simply hitting her and comparing the percentage of her HP.

> > >Now I take all the data in my possession and use it together with the publicly known skill coefficients & damage formulas to estimate your stats & effective power.

> > >Now that I know your stats, I have the power to follow you anywhere and estimate your DPS judging only by the skill animations, buffs & effects that I see!

> >

> > >All that done by simply analyzing the data publicly given to me by the game, without any 3rd party programs.

> >

> > >Am I invading your private data by doing so?

>

> So go hire a lawyer...

 

Ah, I see, no good answer similar to our friend Kheldorn.5123 who continued to ignore my question.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> > @Vova.2640 said:

> > A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> > Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> > There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

>

> Hello, basic game knowledge here.

>

> A mob must report its current HP/Status to everyone in the zone or else .... Guess what happens ? No combat can occur.

>

 

Is AI scripted creature a player? Also the HP valuse and damage are reported to the server and game client not to player itself.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > @Vova.2640 said:

> > > A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> > > Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> > > There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

> >

> > Combat Meters only showed grouped players Combat data, consent is given upon grouping with others.

>

> This is current policy and this thread is challenging its premise with request of change. No need to repeat yourself all the time. We know what policy is.

 

Your whole thread is based on the legal premise of personal data and infringement non of that occurs since Combat Data is not Personal Data and is not being read from your machine.

 

The current policy you already agreed to whenever you login to game and group with others, as well as when you installed the game.

 

You try to say Combat Meters break the Law when in fact they do not.

 

Your stance is based on a lot of misinformation that has no backing with even learning the basic definitions of what your purport.

 

The current policy is completely fine, since everyone has control over their situation and play time.

 

 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @Vova.2640 said:

> > > A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> > > Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> > > There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

> >

> > Hello, basic game knowledge here.

> >

> > A mob must report its current HP/Status to everyone in the zone or else .... Guess what happens ? No combat can occur.

> >

>

> Is AI scripted creature a player? Also the HP valuse and damage are reported to the server and game client not to player itself.

 

Damage is transmitted to other players through the use of the Health bar.......... pesky facts.

 

Combat Meters just easily display already available visual data into an easy to read number display.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > @Vova.2640 said:

> > > > A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> > > > Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> > > > There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

> > >

> > > Hello, basic game knowledge here.

> > >

> > > A mob must report its current HP/Status to everyone in the zone or else .... Guess what happens ? No combat can occur.

> > >

> >

> > Is AI scripted creature a player? Also the HP valuse and damage are reported to the server and game client not to player itself.

>

> Damage is transmitted to other players through the use of the Health bar.......... pesky facts.

 

But not numbers and those numbers are not directly associated to my account. Only if player puts effort and tries to count which of my hits does damage he can guess with no certain what I actually did.

[Sykper.6583]

Pretty sure it's a massive stretch to suggest that DPS meters would be imposing a Legal issue, at least with concern to ArcDPS of which _estimates_, not 100%, the DPS of the user and the group they've formed up with by simulation and typical skill detection / effects the client-side receives.

 

- There's zero communication from ArcDPS reading through to other client machines.

- The data being returned is the data that normally processes in-game and how the engine works with combat. And the data being collected isn't the most accurate, it's decent but further accuracy would go beyond the scope of which A-Net prefers (likely for legal precedents or in-game abuse/hacking).

 

I don't mind Khelbron making his case about wanting to revise the DPS meter policy, there's some fair points on this touchy subject regardless. But I'm about 90% certain Arenanet likely went through the hurdles on legality of the tool in regions like the EU and what it could do with their game before giving their stance and making their latest policy.

 

And making the case that a mostly but not 100% accurate 3rd party tool that runs effectively client-side, parsing known combat data that we could technically process ourselves, that you can consent to when you join a party / squad (Wouldn't be too awful for the community to make this known in LFGs that they are running Arc) and otherwise doesn't work if you aren't a part of that user's group...is an infringement of personal information I would say is very difficult even with the Vagueness of that EU law. I don't see the law stretching to this circumstance.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @Vova.2640 said:

> A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

 

I don't know if you read the rest of thread but at around page 7 I explain why this cannot be done, for technical reasons.

 

And a little elaboration for those who can't bother to read:

The reason why the dps of those around you is shown is because the meter reads how much damage is done on the mob, not how much damage the players are doing. It doesn't read player data, it reads mob data on your OWN machine. It doesn't read the ram, the hard disk or network packets of anyone else, other than its user. It reads information available in the ram of the user, information that is essential to show graphics and effects on your monitor. You can't bypass this.

BGDM was a meter that was showing only the dps of those who were using it, it did so by using an external server to store the dps of all its users.

This means both an upload/download to a server in the US (to my knowledge there never was a EU version) of a third party with no guarantee that the server would stay on in the long term, neither on how the data uploaded to it would be used in the future. A server that obviously costs money

 

The only solution to the problem is for Anet themselves to create the dps meter, that way it can stay personal without the above SERIOUS consequences.

The far fetched solution is for Anet to give third party developers direct access to their servers, which is highly unlikely to happen.

There is no other way to have a player "agree" to it and make it known to the meter without using an external service and upload/download towards it.

 

So now you know the reason why the dps meter works the way it does and the solution to what was in the OP of this thread.

It's not a policy change, it's a pure technical/coding issue that can be solved only by the developers. At least now you should know what to ask for.

 

[Edit/Addition] And a tiny coding addition, it's impossible for Anet to enforce ArcDPS to read only combat data of those who give their consent because ArcDPS MUST somehow get that data. Where would this "consent" be stored at?

[Haishao.6851]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @Vova.2640 said:

> > > A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> > > Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> > > There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

> >

> > Hello, basic game knowledge here.

> >

> > A mob must report its current HP/Status to everyone in the zone or else .... Guess what happens ? No combat can occur.

> >

>

> Is AI scripted creature a player? Also the HP valuse and damage are reported to the server and game client not to player itself.

 

If I hit something that has 10000 HP and you see the little HP bar on it drop to 99%, You saw I have done 100 damage. If it drop to 50% in 2 seconds you can see I did 2500 DPS

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @Vova.2640 said:

> > > A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> > > Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> > > There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

> >

> > Hello, basic game knowledge here.

> >

> > A mob must report its current HP/Status to everyone in the zone or else .... Guess what happens ? No combat can occur.

> >

>

> Is AI scripted creature a player? Also the HP valuse and damage are reported to the server and game client not to player itself.

 

Let me just point out what you said and why it's hilariously wrong as you seem to not understand networking

Player A attacks Mob C

Player B Walks into combat range (data is being broadcast from mob C to all clients in range)

Player B now has the combat data of Mob C

Player B Attacks Mob C

Player A now receives additional combat information from Mob C (as it is not only self-contained but also Player B.)

Repeat cycle as needed, Repeat scenario as needed. Heck it doesn't even have to be mobs, it could quite literally be player to player. But without said data being broadcast the clients would both be desynched and never be able to engage in combat.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > > @Vova.2640 said:

> > > > > A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> > > > > Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> > > > > There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

> > > >

> > > > Hello, basic game knowledge here.

> > > >

> > > > A mob must report its current HP/Status to everyone in the zone or else .... Guess what happens ? No combat can occur.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Is AI scripted creature a player? Also the HP valuse and damage are reported to the server and game client not to player itself.

> >

> > Damage is transmitted to other players through the use of the Health bar.......... pesky facts.

>

> But not numbers and those numbers are not directly associated to my account. Only if player puts effort and tries to count which of my hits does damage he can guess with no certain what I actually did.

 

Actually there are numbers associated with it through the Percentage numbers and since all Mobs have their Health pools available it is very reasonable to figure it out, again it isn’t hidden data that is being displayed all of the data is already on display through Visual means of Buff bars/ Debuff Bars Ai Health Bars, Skill Animations, let’s not forget Combat Logs which makes it even easier to figure out how much damage each player contributed.

 

Pesky facts I know, it’s not like they aregathering hidden data like what gear you are wearing or anything like that.

 

 

Remember Arcdps doesn’t read any information from Your machine or anyone else’s, it read from the Person using its machine only, this is easily shown with two players using Arcdps the Data will be different within a couple low percent on everyone that isn’t the player using it.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > > > @Vova.2640 said:

> > > > > > A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> > > > > > Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> > > > > > There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hello, basic game knowledge here.

> > > > >

> > > > > A mob must report its current HP/Status to everyone in the zone or else .... Guess what happens ? No combat can occur.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Is AI scripted creature a player? Also the HP valuse and damage are reported to the server and game client not to player itself.

> > >

> > > Damage is transmitted to other players through the use of the Health bar.......... pesky facts.

> >

> > But not numbers and those numbers are not directly associated to my account. Only if player puts effort and tries to count which of my hits does damage he can guess with no certain what I actually did.

>

> Actually there are numbers associated with it through the Percentage numbers and since all Mobs have their Health pools available it is very reasonable to figure it out, again it isn’t hidden data that is being displayed all of the data is already on display through Visual means of Buff bars/ Debuff Bars Ai Health Bars, Skill Animations, let’s not forget Combat Logs which makes it even easier to figure out how much damage each player contributed.

>

> Pesky facts I know, it’s not like they aregathering hidden data like what gear you are wearing or anything like that.

>

>

 

You do not know mob's HP value and you also don't know how hard I hit the mob just by watching me in game. It is only possible for you to see in numbers if using ArcDPS.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > > > > @Vova.2640 said:

> > > > > > > A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> > > > > > > Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> > > > > > > There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hello, basic game knowledge here.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A mob must report its current HP/Status to everyone in the zone or else .... Guess what happens ? No combat can occur.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Is AI scripted creature a player? Also the HP valuse and damage are reported to the server and game client not to player itself.

> > > >

> > > > Damage is transmitted to other players through the use of the Health bar.......... pesky facts.

> > >

> > > But not numbers and those numbers are not directly associated to my account. Only if player puts effort and tries to count which of my hits does damage he can guess with no certain what I actually did.

> >

> > Actually there are numbers associated with it through the Percentage numbers and since all Mobs have their Health pools available it is very reasonable to figure it out, again it isn’t hidden data that is being displayed all of the data is already on display through Visual means of Buff bars/ Debuff Bars Ai Health Bars, Skill Animations, let’s not forget Combat Logs which makes it even easier to figure out how much damage each player contributed.

> >

> > Pesky facts I know, it’s not like they aregathering hidden data like what gear you are wearing or anything like that.

> >

> >

>

> You do not know mob's HP value and you also don't know how hard I hit the mob just by watching me in game. It is only possible for you to see in numbers if using ArcDPS.

 

AI Health is part of the API and is known Data hence how I Know Gorseval has 21.6 million HP, and if you know that Data guess what you can figure out how hard someone hits based on the percentage drop, you know an in game ui setting.

[TexZero.7910]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> You do not know mob's HP value and you also don't know how hard I hit the mob just by watching me in game. It is only possible for you to see in numbers if using ArcDPS.

 

You sure about that ?

Pretty certain mob HP values are a known quantity to the system. You're confusing public facing (UI) with Public Facing Data, they're two completely different things.

[Rhanoa.3960]

Duplicate post

[Coulter.2315]

> @Paladine.6082 said:

> > @Coulter.2315 said:

> >

> > > @Paladine.6082 said:

> >

> > > I work in privacy for a living at a very high level (I helped draft the upcoming ePrivacy Regulation in the EU and am actually in Brussels next week for more discussions at the European Parliament) and have been advocating stronger digital privacy for a very long time - so I found your post interesting. I think the arguments you raised are completely valid (and as a condi warrior in full ascended I am not concerned about my DPS being "poor") and that this type of activity is an infringement of a player's privacy.

> > >

> > > I can also tell you as a fact that gamer privacy is a focus with legislators in Europe and that technically under Article 5(3) of 2002/58/EC this type of activity would already fall foul of European law as this makes it unlawful to gain access to any information on an end user's terminal equipment without consent - given the data for DPS meters is generated on the end user's terminal equipment it is pretty clear cut.

> > >

> > > Also Article 10 of the upcoming ePrivacy Regulation in Europe has a requirement for software to have privacy built in (by design) and for it to be the default setting - so arguably the developer of ArcDPS would be required to ensure that a: users of the software are not able to see other users' DPS without consent; and b: privacy settings are enabled by default.

> >

> > Every day the EU proves to me it needs to go. What exactly gives you the right to tell DPS meter devs how they must design their programs? Which political party ran on a campaign to ban DPS meters and was voted into office? Does Junker play GW2 and do terrible DPS? If none of these can be answered could you explain how you could be so bad at writing legislation that DPS meters would be caught up in a digital privacy bill?

> >

> > Well done EU.. Coming down on the side of stiffling creativity and endeavour once more (colour me shocked *cough*)..

>

> Are you trolling here or are you really that ignorant?

>

> 1. MEPs are voted into office and are one of the three legislative bodies in the EU (the European Commission and the Council of the EU are the other 2).

> 2. The law does not target DPS meters or make DPS meters illegal - it regulates the processing of personal data and provides 6 legal basis for processing personal data in order to a: safeguard your fundamental rights which were again created by elected officials; and b: enable companies to conduct business in a legal fashion.

> 3. Every single law the EU creates goes through a significantly long period of public consultation. You and EVERY OTHER person in Europe has full access rights to that process and can lobby to have the law shaped to their ideology. In the case of GDPR the first draft was leaked in December 2011 and it was not finalised until spring 2016 - that means you had almost 5 years to engage in the process and help shape the law - if you didn't that is not anyone else's fault but you own (I did).

> 4. I am not paid by the EU to write laws - I write laws by engaging in the democratic process, attending consultations, roundtables, submitting amendments, lobbying - all at my own expense as a responsible citizen engaging in my democratic rights.

>

> So in future before blowing smoke out of your kitten - perhaps it would be wise to do a little research instead of making yourself look like a complete buffoon making unqualified and completely false public statements. I bet you voted for Brexit too...

 

1. Name the MEP who proposed this legislation (you can't).

2. So the law does things it wasn't intended to do, nice competency.

3. The EU's ideology hasn't shifted by the UK voting to leave, do you think a GW2 player will have a greater effect?

4. How many people voted for you? Who do you represent through their consent? Or have you taken it upon yourself to shape the destiny of a continent without asking if this is what they want?

 

Continent wide government by a bunch of busy bodies and bureaucrats who have no mandate surrounded by a bunch of MEPs who have an average voter turnout of ~43% to give an illusion of democracy. MEPs cannot propose legislation and any regulation becomes instant law in all member states regardless if that member state's MEPs all vote against it - nice "democracy."

[Coconut.7082]

> @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > > > > @Vova.2640 said:

> > > > > > > A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> > > > > > > Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> > > > > > > There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hello, basic game knowledge here.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A mob must report its current HP/Status to everyone in the zone or else .... Guess what happens ? No combat can occur.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Is AI scripted creature a player? Also the HP valuse and damage are reported to the server and game client not to player itself.

> > > >

> > > > Damage is transmitted to other players through the use of the Health bar.......... pesky facts.

> > >

> > > But not numbers and those numbers are not directly associated to my account. Only if player puts effort and tries to count which of my hits does damage he can guess with no certain what I actually did.

> >

> > Actually there are numbers associated with it through the Percentage numbers and since all Mobs have their Health pools available it is very reasonable to figure it out, again it isn’t hidden data that is being displayed all of the data is already on display through Visual means of Buff bars/ Debuff Bars Ai Health Bars, Skill Animations, let’s not forget Combat Logs which makes it even easier to figure out how much damage each player contributed.

> >

> > Pesky facts I know, it’s not like they aregathering hidden data like what gear you are wearing or anything like that.

> >

> >

>

> You do not know mob's HP value and you also don't know how hard I hit the mob just by watching me in game. It is only possible for you to see in numbers if using ArcDPS.

 

You do, I went around all the mobs in Tyria, killed them alone and added up all the numbers I saw in my in-game chat log to know their HP, which I stored in a huge database (Alternately I could calculate percentages, or use Wiki for some).

All the data is presented to you, if you know how to read it. ^^

 

> @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> Being unaware and having poor perception can be challenging. In the case when you log into the game every day since Beta it's pretty obvious that GW2 was not designed the same way as most traditional MMORPGs. Maybe you should actually try it out.

 

Very challenging indeed.

You dare question my way of playing the game? I thought this game was designed to "play however you want"!

 

[Paladine.6082]

> @Coulter.2315 said:

> > @Paladine.6082 said:

> > > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > >

> > > > @Paladine.6082 said:

> > >

> > > > I work in privacy for a living at a very high level (I helped draft the upcoming ePrivacy Regulation in the EU and am actually in Brussels next week for more discussions at the European Parliament) and have been advocating stronger digital privacy for a very long time - so I found your post interesting. I think the arguments you raised are completely valid (and as a condi warrior in full ascended I am not concerned about my DPS being "poor") and that this type of activity is an infringement of a player's privacy.

> > > >

> > > > I can also tell you as a fact that gamer privacy is a focus with legislators in Europe and that technically under Article 5(3) of 2002/58/EC this type of activity would already fall foul of European law as this makes it unlawful to gain access to any information on an end user's terminal equipment without consent - given the data for DPS meters is generated on the end user's terminal equipment it is pretty clear cut.

> > > >

> > > > Also Article 10 of the upcoming ePrivacy Regulation in Europe has a requirement for software to have privacy built in (by design) and for it to be the default setting - so arguably the developer of ArcDPS would be required to ensure that a: users of the software are not able to see other users' DPS without consent; and b: privacy settings are enabled by default.

> > >

> > > Every day the EU proves to me it needs to go. What exactly gives you the right to tell DPS meter devs how they must design their programs? Which political party ran on a campaign to ban DPS meters and was voted into office? Does Junker play GW2 and do terrible DPS? If none of these can be answered could you explain how you could be so bad at writing legislation that DPS meters would be caught up in a digital privacy bill?

> > >

> > > Well done EU.. Coming down on the side of stiffling creativity and endeavour once more (colour me shocked *cough*)..

> >

> > Are you trolling here or are you really that ignorant?

> >

> > 1. MEPs are voted into office and are one of the three legislative bodies in the EU (the European Commission and the Council of the EU are the other 2).

> > 2. The law does not target DPS meters or make DPS meters illegal - it regulates the processing of personal data and provides 6 legal basis for processing personal data in order to a: safeguard your fundamental rights which were again created by elected officials; and b: enable companies to conduct business in a legal fashion.

> > 3. Every single law the EU creates goes through a significantly long period of public consultation. You and EVERY OTHER person in Europe has full access rights to that process and can lobby to have the law shaped to their ideology. In the case of GDPR the first draft was leaked in December 2011 and it was not finalised until spring 2016 - that means you had almost 5 years to engage in the process and help shape the law - if you didn't that is not anyone else's fault but you own (I did).

> > 4. I am not paid by the EU to write laws - I write laws by engaging in the democratic process, attending consultations, roundtables, submitting amendments, lobbying - all at my own expense as a responsible citizen engaging in my democratic rights.

> >

> > So in future before blowing smoke out of your kitten - perhaps it would be wise to do a little research instead of making yourself look like a complete buffoon making unqualified and completely false public statements. I bet you voted for Brexit too...

>

> 1. Name the MEP who proposed this legislation (you can't).

> 2. So the law does things it wasn't intended to do, nice competency.

> 3. The EU's ideology hasn't shifted by the UK voting to leave, do you think a GW2 player will have a greater effect?

> 4. How many people voted for you? Who do you represent through their consent? Or have you taken it upon yourself to shape the destiny of a continent without asking if this is what they want?

>

> Continent wide government by a bunch of busy bodies and bureaucrats who have no mandate surrounded by a bunch of MEPs who have an average voter turnout of ~43% to give an illusion of democracy. MEPs cannot propose legislation and any regulation becomes instant law in all member states regardless if that member state's MEPs all vote against it - nice "democracy."

 

1. Pretty much every MEP voted on this legislation but if you want to find out exactly which ones you can because it is public record - go have a look.

2. The law does exactly what it was intended to do - it does not outlaw DPS meters, it just requires that they have a legal basis for processing the data

3. Your question makes no sense

4. I am a citizen and have democratic rights just as you do to effect change.

 

MEPs -can- propose legislation (indirectly) as a result of the Lisbon Treaty - they can instruct the Commission to introduce a propsosal - they may also reject a proposed legislation. The Council of the EU is also made up of elected officials and has equal weight with the Parliament on voting on and adopting legislation. Democracy doesn't allow you to ignore the voice of the many - when a law is introduced you don't get to ignore it just because you didn't vote for it or don't like it. Laws in Europe are introduced as a result of a majority vote from 2 elected bodies.

 

So yeah, next time don't go to wikipedia and try to make it look like you understand - you clearly don't.

[Rhanoa.3960]

> @Coconut.7082 said:

> > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > > > > > @Vova.2640 said:

> > > > > > > > A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> > > > > > > > Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> > > > > > > > There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hello, basic game knowledge here.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > A mob must report its current HP/Status to everyone in the zone or else .... Guess what happens ? No combat can occur.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Is AI scripted creature a player? Also the HP valuse and damage are reported to the server and game client not to player itself.

> > > > >

> > > > > Damage is transmitted to other players through the use of the Health bar.......... pesky facts.

> > > >

> > > > But not numbers and those numbers are not directly associated to my account. Only if player puts effort and tries to count which of my hits does damage he can guess with no certain what I actually did.

> > >

> > > Actually there are numbers associated with it through the Percentage numbers and since all Mobs have their Health pools available it is very reasonable to figure it out, again it isn’t hidden data that is being displayed all of the data is already on display through Visual means of Buff bars/ Debuff Bars Ai Health Bars, Skill Animations, let’s not forget Combat Logs which makes it even easier to figure out how much damage each player contributed.

> > >

> > > Pesky facts I know, it’s not like they aregathering hidden data like what gear you are wearing or anything like that.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You do not know mob's HP value and you also don't know how hard I hit the mob just by watching me in game. It is only possible for you to see in numbers if using ArcDPS.

>

> You do, I went around all the mobs in Tyria, killed them alone and added up all the numbers I saw in my in-game chat log to know their HP, which I stored in a huge database (Alternately I could calculate percentages, or use Wiki for some).

> All the data is presented to you, if you know how to read it. ^^

>

> > @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> > Being unaware and having poor perception can be challenging. In the case when you log into the game every day since Beta it's pretty obvious that GW2 was not designed the same way as most traditional MMORPGs. Maybe you should actually try it out.

>

> Very challenging indeed.

> You dare question my way of playing the game? I thought this game was designed to "play however you want"!

>

 

I didn't question the way you play the game.

I questioned whether or not you actually know the difference between GW2 vs Traditional MMORPGs.

[Coconut.7082]

> @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> > @Coconut.7082 said:

> > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said:

> > > > > > > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Vova.2640 said:

> > > > > > > > > A DPS meter should show YOUR PERSONAL DPS.

> > > > > > > > > Or at most show the DPS of other users who AGREE TO HAVE THEIR DPS SHARED.

> > > > > > > > > There is no reason why the DPS of those around you who aren't using this tool should be shown as well.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Hello, basic game knowledge here.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > A mob must report its current HP/Status to everyone in the zone or else .... Guess what happens ? No combat can occur.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Is AI scripted creature a player? Also the HP valuse and damage are reported to the server and game client not to player itself.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Damage is transmitted to other players through the use of the Health bar.......... pesky facts.

> > > > >

> > > > > But not numbers and those numbers are not directly associated to my account. Only if player puts effort and tries to count which of my hits does damage he can guess with no certain what I actually did.

> > > >

> > > > Actually there are numbers associated with it through the Percentage numbers and since all Mobs have their Health pools available it is very reasonable to figure it out, again it isn’t hidden data that is being displayed all of the data is already on display through Visual means of Buff bars/ Debuff Bars Ai Health Bars, Skill Animations, let’s not forget Combat Logs which makes it even easier to figure out how much damage each player contributed.

> > > >

> > > > Pesky facts I know, it’s not like they aregathering hidden data like what gear you are wearing or anything like that.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > You do not know mob's HP value and you also don't know how hard I hit the mob just by watching me in game. It is only possible for you to see in numbers if using ArcDPS.

> >

> > You do, I went around all the mobs in Tyria, killed them alone and added up all the numbers I saw in my in-game chat log to know their HP, which I stored in a huge database (Alternately I could calculate percentages, or use Wiki for some).

> > All the data is presented to you, if you know how to read it. ^^

> >

> > > @Rhanoa.3960 said:

> > > Being unaware and having poor perception can be challenging. In the case when you log into the game every day since Beta it's pretty obvious that GW2 was not designed the same way as most traditional MMORPGs. Maybe you should actually try it out.

> >

> > Very challenging indeed.

> > You dare question my way of playing the game? I thought this game was designed to "play however you want"!

> >

>

> I didn't question the way you play the game.

> I questioned whether or not you actually know the difference between GW2 vs Traditional MMORPGs.

 

Enlighten me, what makes GW2 so different from the others, that players shouldn't try to become familiar with the class/game mechanics, try to get decent gear or improve?