Cyninja.2954 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @MrRuin.9740 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > **Possible solutions are:** > > > 1. Changing the policy to state that sharing any information using 3rd party tools is possible only if player consents. > > > 2. Acknowledging that ArenaNet takes responsibility for any problems approved 3rd party tools may cause and help players with consequences. > > > > Where's option 3, where the agreement states that dps and other non-identifying information is shared in the background between clients and can be seen via 3rd party tools? Funny how that one that doesn't suit your own needs was left off. This information is being shared with other clients, whether ARCdps is installed or not. Which should be a problem for you, if this were truly about privacy. Sorry, I get you're coming at this from an angle of privacy, but it's really hard to believe that is the issue here. There's nothing identifying or personal being shared and it's information already being sent to those clients. It seems like the equivalent of someone knowing how fast you're driving on the highway via a speed radar displaying it is a violation of your privacy. Well, no. It isn't. > > This statement would solve nothing because it still doesn't maket ArenaNet responsible for any possible harm done by such tools. So where is option 3: Arenanet should provide us with an ingame damage meter and combat log which allows for proper fight analysis and allows for the discontinuation of tolerated 3rd party software? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > It is correct though that some of this information is not as easily visible without a 3rd party software. Arenanet have given their consent in this data getting used and Chris Cleary has expanded upon this earlier. and yet they refuse to take any responsibility for this decision which is part of this discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @MrRuin.9740 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > **Possible solutions are:** > > > > 1. Changing the policy to state that sharing any information using 3rd party tools is possible only if player consents. > > > > 2. Acknowledging that ArenaNet takes responsibility for any problems approved 3rd party tools may cause and help players with consequences. > > > > > > Where's option 3, where the agreement states that dps and other non-identifying information is shared in the background between clients and can be seen via 3rd party tools? Funny how that one that doesn't suit your own needs was left off. This information is being shared with other clients, whether ARCdps is installed or not. Which should be a problem for you, if this were truly about privacy. Sorry, I get you're coming at this from an angle of privacy, but it's really hard to believe that is the issue here. There's nothing identifying or personal being shared and it's information already being sent to those clients. It seems like the equivalent of someone knowing how fast you're driving on the highway via a speed radar displaying it is a violation of your privacy. Well, no. It isn't. > > > > This statement would solve nothing because it still doesn't maket ArenaNet responsible for any possible harm done by such tools. > > So where is option 3: > > Arenanet should provide us with an ingame damage meter and combat log which allows for proper fight analysis and allows for the discontinuation of tolerated 3rd party software? You are very true with this and I would accept such decision but ArenaNet is not interested in creating their own dps meter being part of game client and I didn't include this option because the answer is already known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhanoa.3960 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @MrRuin.9740 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > **Possible solutions are:** > > > > 1. Changing the policy to state that sharing any information using 3rd party tools is possible only if player consents. > > > > 2. Acknowledging that ArenaNet takes responsibility for any problems approved 3rd party tools may cause and help players with consequences. > > > > > > Where's option 3, where the agreement states that dps and other non-identifying information is shared in the background between clients and can be seen via 3rd party tools? Funny how that one that doesn't suit your own needs was left off. This information is being shared with other clients, whether ARCdps is installed or not. Which should be a problem for you, if this were truly about privacy. Sorry, I get you're coming at this from an angle of privacy, but it's really hard to believe that is the issue here. There's nothing identifying or personal being shared and it's information already being sent to those clients. It seems like the equivalent of someone knowing how fast you're driving on the highway via a speed radar displaying it is a violation of your privacy. Well, no. It isn't. > > > > This statement would solve nothing because it still doesn't maket ArenaNet responsible for any possible harm done by such tools. > > So where is option 3: > > Arenanet should provide us with an ingame damage meter and combat log which allows for proper fight analysis and allows for the discontinuation of tolerated 3rd party software? Actually they should if this is the direction the game is going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > > @Bloodstealer.5978 said: > > > > I am thinking you also may be missing Khels point.. its not about the data .. its about allowing a 3rd party application to automatically collect and monitor the players data regardless of whether ANET already have it, require it. No request for consent has ever been put to players, it has just become opensource open use policy and that doesn't sit well. > > > > If all the info is readily available in game why is ARC DPS required.. or is it that it can sort through all the data logs and make other players data specifically visible to a wider audience for everyone to see and grief/abuse if they want.. in which case there will always be an argument about its legitimacy imo. > > > > > > > > Personally I don't give a rats about my DPS.. I am no min maxer, I play the way I want and if others want to kick me cos they can see I am putting out 10dps less than he/she is then great do so and let those numpties play with themselves. I come to GW2 to get away from working life and drama. > > > > But ANET changing their policy to allow ARCDPS to run around uncontrolled and without the permiss of others in group to monitor them is bad practice and needs looking at properly imo, but that won't happen we know. > > > > > > 1) It's not collecting data, it's parsing data there's a difference. It's public data and is readily available to everyone > > > 2) It's not required, It's optional and provides the data in a format that's easier to digest and more accurate than the ways you could previously do it. > > > 3) The policy never changed. We've always been able to use third party tools and UI's. What changed was the public stance towards them confirming that people will not be banned for using them > > > > OK sorry.. parse data.. > > > > The fact is its already data that's been available since day 1.. and you just confirmed why ARCDPS is being used.. so it can sort through individual data and display it in a way that makes each players stick out like a sore thumb .. therefore its nothing more than a glorified griefing tool.. its not required for any other purpose because like we know.. all that data is already there within game... thanks for clearing that up. > > So ANET has basically changed there ToS to allow a 3rd party application to used for no other real purpose other than to open up the potential for player griefing... seems a cool idea. > > Other MMO's I have played that allow DPS meters actually require both parties to have the software loaded and therefore consent for the sharing of the/display of one another's stats, builds and dps/heals etc.. that kind of policy works far better because its consensual. > > You guys really like to use hyperbole and strawmans to the fullest dontcha ? > > Any object being used is only as good as the person(s) using it. ArcDPS is used to parse the combat to see where and if improvements can be made and just generally let people know exactly what if anything went wrong or just allow for some friendly inter-group pushing of who cant stat stick & skill rotation better. > > But you seem to only look at the negatives of the situation so, i'll ask. What do you do when you see someone type something that offends you in map/guild/whisper chat ? > Because chat is the real griefing tool, yet i don't see you asking for that to be removed. You missed the part where I said I personally don't give a rats about whether my build / stats etc align with your perceived meta.. kick me if you want I really don't care, that's one of the reason I tend to run with people I know, but pugging can be fun when your not trying to be an elitist grief spoon. If I see a violation in map chat or a bot, haxter or even an autoskill macro farmer I report them - whether ANET actually act on most of their ToS violations or general griefing is down to them, personally I think most of the time they are filed in the nearest waste bin, but that's their prerogative I guess. I mean you have only got to look at the LFG tool to see how many people use it for selling items. Then again ANET like to play in grey areas .. like the selling of dungeon spots, but not items.. even though you can still join a group in order to sell stuff... grey areas are rife imo and the DPS meter is just another play made in the same soup bowl. I get it.. the tool benefits you , no one is saying it doesn't but when such data is already readily available what other reason is their for installing ARCDPS other than to specifically pinpoint other players in order to kick or grief them.. ooh wait the forums, map chats, Reddit.. they are all full to the brim of posts about how thankful players are that others have been able to identify they were a weak link and thanks them for the endless abusive whispers or being kicked right before getting to the end of a raid/dungeon run that took "x" minutes longer and have to do it all over again. Call it hyperbole if you like... when your the one on the end of the beating stick, maybe then you might see the issue. 3rd party snooping tools like DPS meters, even if such parse data is available within the game are nothing more than glorified griefing tools and should be managed properly in game or at the very least require all members of the party to consent to the use of it..ie if 1 has it but the rest don't.. it will only be able to parse that persons own dat.. you want the others then they have to consent, install it and run it, surely that isn't too much of a rocket science request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Paladine.6082 said: > > Are you a lawyer and if not is this an official position you have been asked to publish from the legal team? > > I ask because I wrote an article on this yesterday which has been widely distributed in legal circles and experts on data protection/privacy and there is 100% agreement with my points (from regulators who have commented as well). Any information relating to behaviour of a person (irrespective of where or how that data is generated) is legally classed as personal data under EU law - this is not even a case of stretching interpretation - behavioural data is explicitly written into EU law as qualifying as personal data. Combat data is absolutely generated as a result of a person's behaviour and is therefore, without question, legally defined as personal data. > > It is not your place to determine what is or what is not personal data - that is a matter established by law, laws which you as a company are obliged to follow or face the penalties provided for not following. > > Also under the law User Agreements, End User License Agreements, Terms and Conditions etc. are not legally permitted to be used to relay information on privacy and data protection - a specific privacy notice is required - I suggest you have your legal team read the General Data Protection Regulation, because they clearly haven't. > > So if you are not a lawyer or relaying the information at the request of the legal team, I would respectfully request that you provide me with the official contact information for your legal team so I can discuss this further with them. If you are a lawyer or member of the legal team, please contact me via private message so we can continue discussion on a more formal (and less toxic) basis. > > I stopped engaging with this thread because frankly the responses were toxic and utterly unqualified to comment, but it is an issue I will be raising in Brussels next week and given the wide agreement from the legal community I will likely file a test case as well at some point in the near future. > > And to everyone else, no I will not be engaging any further in this thread, so save your fingers and don't bother trying to bait me :) In that same law you might also find exceptions to this rule of 'Behavioral Targetting' when a user gives their full consent to be monitored. Consent is automatically given as per the User Agreement we all signed when we bought and agreed to play GW2 on Arenanet's Servers, our accounts are ultimately Arenanet's property and whatever flavor or personality we add such as our usernames, character names, and so forth to this account, is public information for that account. This is also why it is 100% legal for Arenanet to be able to parse logs from the server's data of your position, your actions, where you were at a certain time, literally anything for their own purposes in case something odd occurs such as a bug or abuse of game. As CC said, the 3rd party tool in this instance is simply taking simulated estimations from public data being shoved down our throats in a group setting, it's not peering into any data that isn't consented to by the users in this game, specifically because just about everything in the game that's readily available and shown to the players is considered public data and no longer private. Not even those whispers and mails you send to other players is 'personal data' despite the context of that mail, I would advise not sending sensitive information through in-game mail for this reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > >...This app can be used to monitor my account without my consent or even knowledge... > > You give consent when you accepted the EULA/Privacy Policy when you installed and everytime you log in. If you cannot deal with that, then you should uninstall. > > > > The info is already public. Just like you can't complain about someone taking your photo when you are in public, you cannot complain about public information being arranged in a format that is easier to read. > > arcdps and deltaconnected are not parts of GW2 User Agreement You are right, they are not. However, they are using data that is and you have consented to that data being available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagramor.7395 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @MrRuin.9740 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > **Possible solutions are:** > > > 1. Changing the policy to state that sharing any information using 3rd party tools is possible only if player consents. > > > 2. Acknowledging that ArenaNet takes responsibility for any problems approved 3rd party tools may cause and help players with consequences. > > > > Where's option 3, where the agreement states that dps and other non-identifying information is shared in the background between clients and can be seen via 3rd party tools? Funny how that one that doesn't suit your own needs was left off. This information is being shared with other clients, whether ARCdps is installed or not. Which should be a problem for you, if this were truly about privacy. Sorry, I get you're coming at this from an angle of privacy, but it's really hard to believe that is the issue here. There's nothing identifying or personal being shared and it's information already being sent to those clients. It seems like the equivalent of someone knowing how fast you're driving on the highway via a speed radar displaying it is a violation of your privacy. Well, no. It isn't. > > This statement would solve nothing because it still doesn't maket ArenaNet responsible for any possible harm done by such tools. Forgive my ignorance but when has any game company for which 3rd party tools exist taken responsibility for those 3rd party tools? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @MrRuin.9740 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > **Possible solutions are:** > > > 1. Changing the policy to state that sharing any information using 3rd party tools is possible only if player consents. > > > 2. Acknowledging that ArenaNet takes responsibility for any problems approved 3rd party tools may cause and help players with consequences. > > > > Where's option 3, where the agreement states that dps and other non-identifying information is shared in the background between clients and can be seen via 3rd party tools? Funny how that one that doesn't suit your own needs was left off. This information is being shared with other clients, whether ARCdps is installed or not. Which should be a problem for you, if this were truly about privacy. Sorry, I get you're coming at this from an angle of privacy, but it's really hard to believe that is the issue here. There's nothing identifying or personal being shared and it's information already being sent to those clients. It seems like the equivalent of someone knowing how fast you're driving on the highway via a speed radar displaying it is a violation of your privacy. Well, no. It isn't. > > This statement would solve nothing because it still doesn't maket ArenaNet responsible for any possible harm done by such tools. They'll never be responsible because they made it clear in the EULA that they take no responsibility, a document you agree to each time you log in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 For extra flavor here's the GW2 User Agreement for those interested: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/ For those interested in how the EU law applies, plug in your search engine 'EU Law Behavioural Data' and you are bound to find articles, discussions and so forth about it, but go ahead and read about how 'Behavioral Targetting' was the culprit largely in it. Even internet cookies that track this are considered illegal unless consent is given, fun times this law. The neat news is that if Arenanet has a legitimate reason to track your data for business, such as allowing the world state to work as intended, they can use your combat data to do so. **It almost looks like according to this law Arenanet didn't need to have the user agreement phrased to include tracking your data and interactions because the service wouldn't work without it being so.** Might just be my misinterpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > @MrRuin.9740 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > **Possible solutions are:** > > > 1. Changing the policy to state that sharing any information using 3rd party tools is possible only if player consents. > > > 2. Acknowledging that ArenaNet takes responsibility for any problems approved 3rd party tools may cause and help players with consequences. > > > > Where's option 3, where the agreement states that dps and other non-identifying information is shared in the background between clients and can be seen via 3rd party tools? Funny how that one that doesn't suit your own needs was left off. This information is being shared with other clients, whether ARCdps is installed or not. Which should be a problem for you, if this were truly about privacy. Sorry, I get you're coming at this from an angle of privacy, but it's really hard to believe that is the issue here. There's nothing identifying or personal being shared and it's information already being sent to those clients. It seems like the equivalent of someone knowing how fast you're driving on the highway via a speed radar displaying it is a violation of your privacy. Well, no. It isn't. > > > 3rd Option: > **Performance Incentive** > You want to set expectations on Performance in a VIDEO GAME Folks should expect something in return as well. > > * Gem Store gift items of 500 gems + or - depending on the content > * 40 Ectos worth up to 10g per Boss fight (subjected to market value) > * Items worth up to 10g per Boss Fight (subjected to market value) > * 10g per boss > > The performance incentive already exists, it's called rewards. You know how when you complete content, you get rewards like chests etc? People want to use their time efficiently to get these rewards and if a program can help them do it, which has no bearing on you whatsoever if you choose to not use it, then great. If you don't want to use a meter or be in a party with people who do, then don't join those parties. It's not hard to understand. The expectation of performance is you pull your weight to do the content, if everyone did that, there would be no need for people to gear/LI/DPS check because everything would already be fine, but there are too many people who are lazy and want to be carried through content to get rewards with minimal effort. DPS meters only exist because of selfish lazy people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbhalo.1547 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I am shocked about the effort people put into defending their right to autoattack in nomad's gear and not get called out for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Doesn't everyone know that user agreements are phrased exactly like that that you basically have no rights and that the company is in control of everything? The funniest part is that some people hide behind it where they are basically saying : "But we all agreed to the EULA so all is good!" Everything is public is not a good argument as that is exactly what the discussion is about. Should your user generated data actually be public for everyone willing to make a tool to read so called public data? Taking ingame mail and whispers for example. If someone makes a tool that makes it possible for you to see all those semi private yet public messages then everything would just be fine? Because the implications of such and the reaction of some people here doesn't seem to line up with reality here. In the end its upto Anet to define what is private and what is public. (So such ^ a hypothetical tool would never be allowed if it is possible in the first place) Instead of thinking that Arenanet saying they don't take responsibility, it means completely in regards to those using the tool. If you're using the tool, and you're harassing, that doesn't mean you have a free pass. That means ArenaNet can just boot you no questions asked. You still can't harass, bully , or other such things. So if YOU feel bullied or harassed or whichever, then just use that report function. Allowing the tool doesn't mean allowing certain behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhanoa.3960 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > @MrRuin.9740 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > **Possible solutions are:** > > > > 1. Changing the policy to state that sharing any information using 3rd party tools is possible only if player consents. > > > > 2. Acknowledging that ArenaNet takes responsibility for any problems approved 3rd party tools may cause and help players with consequences. > > > > > > Where's option 3, where the agreement states that dps and other non-identifying information is shared in the background between clients and can be seen via 3rd party tools? Funny how that one that doesn't suit your own needs was left off. This information is being shared with other clients, whether ARCdps is installed or not. Which should be a problem for you, if this were truly about privacy. Sorry, I get you're coming at this from an angle of privacy, but it's really hard to believe that is the issue here. There's nothing identifying or personal being shared and it's information already being sent to those clients. It seems like the equivalent of someone knowing how fast you're driving on the highway via a speed radar displaying it is a violation of your privacy. Well, no. It isn't. > > > > > > 3rd Option: > > **Performance Incentive** > > You want to set expectations on Performance in a VIDEO GAME Folks should expect something in return as well. > > > > * Gem Store gift items of 500 gems + or - depending on the content > > * 40 Ectos worth up to 10g per Boss fight (subjected to market value) > > * Items worth up to 10g per Boss Fight (subjected to market value) > > * 10g per boss > > > > > > The performance incentive already exists, it's called rewards. You know how when you complete content, you get rewards like chests etc? People want to use their time efficiently to get these rewards and if a program can help them do it, which has no bearing on you whatsoever if you choose to not use it, then great. If you don't want to use a meter or be in a party with people who do, then don't join those parties. It's not hard to understand. > > The expectation of performance is you pull your weight to do the content, if everyone did that, there would be no need for people to gear/LI/DPS check because everything would already be fine, but there are too many people who are lazy and want to be carried through content to get rewards with minimal effort. > > DPS meters only exist because of selfish lazy people. You were heading in the right direction. However, the game doesn't tell you YOU must meet the requirements the Players are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Paladine.6082 said: > > @"Chris Cleary.8017" said: > > Since this thread has really exploded, and there seems to be some possible misunderstanding about privacy here, I'll comment. > > > > The current implementation of DPS meters is nothing more than a re-presentation of information already being transmitted by the game server to all clients in the reporting radius. Combat data does not have player ownership as it is being generated by the game server and then transmitted in order to update the status of the world state. > > > > Essentially since the server is running a calculation/simulation based on actions by all the clients in the area, it owns the subsequent reporting of all calculations both literally and legally. > > > > This is different for situations like chat, where there is no impact or simulation necessary and essentially is a forwarding service that the server is simply handling the reporting of the client action. > > > > Regional laws change, if at some point change is required, we will revisit it at that time. I would suggest visiting the Guild Wars 2 User Agreement if you are unsure of anything privacy related for Guild Wars 2. > > > > > > > > > > Are you a lawyer and if not is this an official position you have been asked to publish from the legal team? > > I ask because I wrote an article on this yesterday which has been widely distributed in legal circles and experts on data protection/privacy and there is 100% agreement with my points (from regulators who have commented as well). Any information relating to behaviour of a person (irrespective of where or how that data is generated) is legally classed as personal data under EU law - this is not even a case of stretching interpretation - behavioural data is explicitly written into EU law as qualifying as personal data. Combat data is absolutely generated as a result of a person's behaviour and is therefore, without question, legally defined as personal data. > > It is not your place to determine what is or what is not personal data - that is a matter established by law, laws which you as a company are obliged to follow or face the penalties provided for not following. > > Also under the law User Agreements, End User License Agreements, Terms and Conditions etc. are not legally permitted to be used to relay information on privacy and data protection - a specific privacy notice is required - I suggest you have your legal team read the General Data Protection Regulation, because they clearly haven't. > > So if you are not a lawyer or relaying the information at the request of the legal team, I would respectfully request that you provide me with the official contact information for your legal team so I can discuss this further with them. If you are a lawyer or member of the legal team, please contact me via private message so we can continue discussion on a more formal (and less toxic) basis. > > I stopped engaging with this thread because frankly the responses were toxic and utterly unqualified to comment, but it is an issue I will be raising in Brussels next week and given the wide agreement from the legal community I will likely file a test case as well at some point in the near future. > > And to everyone else, no I will not be engaging any further in this thread, so save your fingers and don't bother trying to bait me :) Omg. The way you talk at the end (about toxicity) completely discredit your attempt at sounding official. I call complete BS on that. No... actually the mere idea to think an anonymous piece of data such as "combat data" is something the EU should and will look into is utter ridiculous. I come from one of these EU countries, they do care a lot about data that serves to identify someone. Like detaining data that serves to identify someone in real life must be declared. If you're a poor little rp forum you dont need to do anything.... THANKS GODS. Cookies have nothing to do with that (you already gave consent in case of gw2... and thats not even cookies) A community online wont be botherered by the EU because they're listing avatar of their members with pseudonymes. You give consent once, and if youre not happy you can ask your account to be permanently removed. Dps data? Completely anonymous, they dont tell you who they are connected to. You only get a pseudonyme and thats it. A pseudonyme you obviously already know from playing the same game and being part of the same group (unless youre gonna contest that too???) The worst that can happen is making stats based of this data, that wont be connected to anyone irl. Facebook itseld wouldnt want that for spying... And you would have us believe they would care about such a pitiful, self centered request that is to keep dps data private (and hey, basically break the game??) No matter which side of the argument you're on this kind of complete non-sense is completely hijacking the thread into pure fantasy, please Anet do something... the net is at it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > You were heading in the right direction. However, the game doesn't tell you YOU must meet the requirements the Players are. And those players have every right to set requirements on which player to play with. It's their time after all isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagramor.7395 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > > @MrRuin.9740 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > **Possible solutions are:** > > > > > 1. Changing the policy to state that sharing any information using 3rd party tools is possible only if player consents. > > > > > 2. Acknowledging that ArenaNet takes responsibility for any problems approved 3rd party tools may cause and help players with consequences. > > > > > > > > Where's option 3, where the agreement states that dps and other non-identifying information is shared in the background between clients and can be seen via 3rd party tools? Funny how that one that doesn't suit your own needs was left off. This information is being shared with other clients, whether ARCdps is installed or not. Which should be a problem for you, if this were truly about privacy. Sorry, I get you're coming at this from an angle of privacy, but it's really hard to believe that is the issue here. There's nothing identifying or personal being shared and it's information already being sent to those clients. It seems like the equivalent of someone knowing how fast you're driving on the highway via a speed radar displaying it is a violation of your privacy. Well, no. It isn't. > > > > > > > > > 3rd Option: > > > **Performance Incentive** > > > You want to set expectations on Performance in a VIDEO GAME Folks should expect something in return as well. > > > > > > * Gem Store gift items of 500 gems + or - depending on the content > > > * 40 Ectos worth up to 10g per Boss fight (subjected to market value) > > > * Items worth up to 10g per Boss Fight (subjected to market value) > > > * 10g per boss > > > > > > > > > > The performance incentive already exists, it's called rewards. You know how when you complete content, you get rewards like chests etc? People want to use their time efficiently to get these rewards and if a program can help them do it, which has no bearing on you whatsoever if you choose to not use it, then great. If you don't want to use a meter or be in a party with people who do, then don't join those parties. It's not hard to understand. > > > > The expectation of performance is you pull your weight to do the content, if everyone did that, there would be no need for people to gear/LI/DPS check because everything would already be fine, but there are too many people who are lazy and want to be carried through content to get rewards with minimal effort. > > > > DPS meters only exist because of selfish lazy people. > > You were heading in the right direction. However, the game doesn't tell you YOU must meet the requirements the Players are. Not to defend the sentiment that DPS meters only exist because of selfish lazy people, but this is a multiplayer game. If you want to play group content and your actions are causing the rest of the group to not be experiencing their game the way they want then don't be offended when they boot you. Find a group (guild) of like-minded people to stick with, or don't play multiplayer games if this is a problem for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhanoa.3960 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > > You were heading in the right direction. However, the game doesn't tell you YOU must meet the requirements the Players are. > > And those players have every right to set requirements on which player to play with. It's their time after all isn't it? Again, META Build is not a requirement for purchasing & playing the game. This is player driven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > > @MrRuin.9740 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > **Possible solutions are:** > > > > > 1. Changing the policy to state that sharing any information using 3rd party tools is possible only if player consents. > > > > > 2. Acknowledging that ArenaNet takes responsibility for any problems approved 3rd party tools may cause and help players with consequences. > > > > > > > > Where's option 3, where the agreement states that dps and other non-identifying information is shared in the background between clients and can be seen via 3rd party tools? Funny how that one that doesn't suit your own needs was left off. This information is being shared with other clients, whether ARCdps is installed or not. Which should be a problem for you, if this were truly about privacy. Sorry, I get you're coming at this from an angle of privacy, but it's really hard to believe that is the issue here. There's nothing identifying or personal being shared and it's information already being sent to those clients. It seems like the equivalent of someone knowing how fast you're driving on the highway via a speed radar displaying it is a violation of your privacy. Well, no. It isn't. > > > > > > > > > 3rd Option: > > > **Performance Incentive** > > > You want to set expectations on Performance in a VIDEO GAME Folks should expect something in return as well. > > > > > > * Gem Store gift items of 500 gems + or - depending on the content > > > * 40 Ectos worth up to 10g per Boss fight (subjected to market value) > > > * Items worth up to 10g per Boss Fight (subjected to market value) > > > * 10g per boss > > > > > > > > > > The performance incentive already exists, it's called rewards. You know how when you complete content, you get rewards like chests etc? People want to use their time efficiently to get these rewards and if a program can help them do it, which has no bearing on you whatsoever if you choose to not use it, then great. If you don't want to use a meter or be in a party with people who do, then don't join those parties. It's not hard to understand. > > > > The expectation of performance is you pull your weight to do the content, if everyone did that, there would be no need for people to gear/LI/DPS check because everything would already be fine, but there are too many people who are lazy and want to be carried through content to get rewards with minimal effort. > > > > DPS meters only exist because of selfish lazy people. > > You were heading in the right direction. However, the game doesn't tell you YOU must meet the requirements the Players are. Formulate a formal complain that all players should be forced to accept everyone in their group without discrimination or filters. Make a poll about it. Yes or No about removing any freedom from group leaders to set their own group rules. Very curious to see the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagramor.7395 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > > > > You were heading in the right direction. However, the game doesn't tell you YOU must meet the requirements the Players are. > > > > And those players have every right to set requirements on which player to play with. It's their time after all isn't it? > > Again, META Build is not a requirement for purchasing & playing the game. No it isn't, but it may be a requirement of the players you're grouped with. That's part of playing a multiplayer game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rennie.6750 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > @Paladine.6082 said: > > > @"Chris Cleary.8017" said: > > > Since this thread has really exploded, and there seems to be some possible misunderstanding about privacy here, I'll comment. > > > > > > The current implementation of DPS meters is nothing more than a re-presentation of information already being transmitted by the game server to all clients in the reporting radius. Combat data does not have player ownership as it is being generated by the game server and then transmitted in order to update the status of the world state. > > > > > > Essentially since the server is running a calculation/simulation based on actions by all the clients in the area, it owns the subsequent reporting of all calculations both literally and legally. > > > > > > This is different for situations like chat, where there is no impact or simulation necessary and essentially is a forwarding service that the server is simply handling the reporting of the client action. > > > > > > Regional laws change, if at some point change is required, we will revisit it at that time. I would suggest visiting the Guild Wars 2 User Agreement if you are unsure of anything privacy related for Guild Wars 2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you a lawyer and if not is this an official position you have been asked to publish from the legal team? > > > > I ask because I wrote an article on this yesterday which has been widely distributed in legal circles and experts on data protection/privacy and there is 100% agreement with my points (from regulators who have commented as well). Any information relating to behaviour of a person (irrespective of where or how that data is generated) is legally classed as personal data under EU law - this is not even a case of stretching interpretation - behavioural data is explicitly written into EU law as qualifying as personal data. Combat data is absolutely generated as a result of a person's behaviour and is therefore, without question, legally defined as personal data. > > > > It is not your place to determine what is or what is not personal data - that is a matter established by law, laws which you as a company are obliged to follow or face the penalties provided for not following. > > > > Also under the law User Agreements, End User License Agreements, Terms and Conditions etc. are not legally permitted to be used to relay information on privacy and data protection - a specific privacy notice is required - I suggest you have your legal team read the General Data Protection Regulation, because they clearly haven't. > > > > So if you are not a lawyer or relaying the information at the request of the legal team, I would respectfully request that you provide me with the official contact information for your legal team so I can discuss this further with them. If you are a lawyer or member of the legal team, please contact me via private message so we can continue discussion on a more formal (and less toxic) basis. > > > > I stopped engaging with this thread because frankly the responses were toxic and utterly unqualified to comment, but it is an issue I will be raising in Brussels next week and given the wide agreement from the legal community I will likely file a test case as well at some point in the near future. > > > > And to everyone else, no I will not be engaging any further in this thread, so save your fingers and don't bother trying to bait me :) > > I look forward to the results of you bringing this up. > > I'm sure if there is any traction we will soon be seeing adjustments to arenanets Terms of Service to which we have to agree. That's just about the only thing which will happen. Since the sharing of this information is a technical requirement of how the MMO works (the sharing of data between client and server) there is also no way around it. > > I haven't seen Burssels interveen with facebook or google on issues of personal data and behavior (which are grossly bigger than an online video game) so I sincerely doubt people will care about an online video game. I have been wrong in the past so I'm sure you'll be able to suprise me. > > On that note, I look forward on how your colleagues interact with you after they realise your passion for video games and topics you bring up. Here I was under the impression Brussels actually had more important problems to deal with at the moment, mainly keeping the European Union together. In fact it's in no way a technical requirement. Updates on monster's health are indeed one, but the origin of health changes don't have to be broadcasted to all clients, and it's not really a very complicated change to implement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda.1967 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 We've seem to be getting a bit off topic here... but the direction the discussion has gone has brought up something rather annoying... Ya'll do realize that this is the only game where people don't seem to grasp the concept that PUGs are random. In any other game it's a perfectly understood concept, if you go to LFG you're party is open to anyone and everyone, if you want to restrict your party you join a guild of like-minded individuals and/or bring friends along. Wish I could say this issue came from refugees from other games, but sadly it didn't. I've played all of the games they came from, some of them I still play, in all of them no one makes requirements in LFG because they understand, LFG is made for PUGs and PUGs are random. Sadly, this problem has existed since GW1, despite the lack of an LFG tool, people would advertise in LFG chat for specific party requirements, sometimes they would simply advertise "LF Elementalist" and get bent out of whack if you're build didn't match meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcry.1596 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Sagramor.7395 said: > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > @Rhanoa.3960 said: > > > > > > > > You were heading in the right direction. However, the game doesn't tell you YOU must meet the requirements the Players are. > > > > > > And those players have every right to set requirements on which player to play with. It's their time after all isn't it? > > > > Again, META Build is not a requirement for purchasing & playing the game. > > No it isn't, but it may be a requirement of the players you're grouped with. That's part of playing a multiplayer game. There are also many raid groups that aren't as specific about builds. I tend to stick to those :) maybe you guys should too. I prefer them because they are much more casual and it doesn't take anything beyond wearing DPS gear and doing mechanics to win raid fights, regardless of how people try to portray raiding to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagramor.7395 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** Could you cite a game that does allow dps meters and/or other displays of "behavioral data" where players must agree to have said behavioral data be viewed by other players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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