VaaCrow.3076 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @AegisRunestone.8672 said: > Yes, because kicking someone from a party and tearing them down is a GREAT way to help them improve. > > Actually, it's not. > > Have any of you ever considered that the person who's "not pulling their weight" (when they very well could be trying their best to) is a human being and not a tool? Have you ever considered that this person may be sensitive? Have you ever considered if all you care about is winning that you should just play single player games? Have you considered before calling out someone saying "git gud," "grow a backbone," "get thick skin," and/or "grow a pair" is rude and inconsiderate to another **human being?** Especially if you don't help them out with a "you can do it!" attitude and instead a "you suck" attitude? > The DPS meters may be safe to use by Anet's standards at the moment, but they give toxic players a reason to be even more toxic and get away with it. They see other players as tools. They never consider that the other person is a human being behind the character; a human with flaws just like them, a human with feelings just like them. Someone snaps at you. Before you react, STOP and think: maybe they're having a bad day? Maybe there's a lot of stress on their back in real life right now and they're playing GW2 to relax. But because, according to the DPS meter and not their actual intentions or attempts, they're "not pulling their weight" you decide to kick them and make their life worse. And yes, in some ways, I'm exaggerating here in order to get my point across. > > Until people learn that other players and posters on the internet are actual human beings behind the character/screen with feelings, flaws, talents, etc. and everyone respects each other for that, the internet, online games, etc. will remain toxic and unfriendly. And programs like DPS Meters just allow people to justify the disrespect that plagues the internet. > > No, you cannot change the other person(s). You can only change yourself. I recommend googling "The Serenity Prayer," reading it and thinking about it before you log in again. Have you considered that i don't care about someone being sensitive, or that someone has a "thin skin" or is easily offended, or if someone has issues etc. And i don't believe that everyone should be given respect just because they're a human being, respect is EARNED, not given. As for being positive, you do you. There are PLENTY of tools out there for people to avoid getting kicked from groups at this point, metabattle for optimal builds, dulfy for guides, YouTube videos explaining positioning and strategy, That is what people who argue against dps meters because they're "evil" take into account. Everyone has the same resources available to them to help them get started in the content, the only difference is the people who tend to get kicked refuse or can't be bothered doing a little research in order to conquer the "hardcore" content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > > I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, **allowing this tool has come with certain oversight** that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **I accept that players have different goals** and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players. **Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it** and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.** ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the tool has to exist in the game, **make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works. **It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool**. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept. > > > > > > > > > > > > But if I create my own group I have no power to know who uses this tool. People can ignore my LFG, join MY group and kick me. My request is to avoid such situation, so I can actually do what you suggest - make my group and control the fact that others can't spy on me without my consent. Currently random person using this tool has an advantage over me using vanilla game client without hacks. This is ridiculous situation. > > > > > > > > > > Again Post your group say no Combat Meters in the LFG and then when someone tries to be a toxic kitten using Combat Meter vote to kick them and report them, because I doubt there will be many people using Combat Meters to join your LFG post stating no Combat Meters, since those groups tend to attract others they wouldn’t want to group with, and they probably won’t just vote to kick you without raging in /p as the basis of your complaint stands upon so most times the 3 other people in your group will more than likely be of your mindset of no Combat Meters and won’t vote to kick you, since it takes 4 others to kick someone. > > > > > > > > But this is only working after "damage" is done (pun intended), it's not preventing such situations. Meanwhile, if my request is to be applied it works for both sides. You can request to play with dps meter and share with everyone beforehand so if anyone joins and refuses to share you can kick him before the fight saving your time watching their poor dps. > > > > > > > > > Also because there seems to be a lack of understanding here, Combat Data is in no way private or personal data/information especially in any group setting. > > > > > > > > > > > > And this is what I'm asking for to be changed in the policy. > > > > > > I gave you the perfect answer to handle the situation if it would ever arise, legitimately no damage would be done or very little Anet provided you every tool to combat those toxic players from LFG descriptions to Block/report /kick from Party. > > > > > > Again in Group settings that Combat data is already not Private or personal since it is a combination of the group as a whole, you have no ownership of it and by aren’t spyin in you, again you are in no way entitled to other players time if you join their group and are underperforming, and if you start your own group with a clear cut LFG description and someone tries to be a toxic kitten then kick block and report them. > > > > > > One last time since it seems to have to be repeated multiple times, consent is given upon Group join, all combat data is not owned or private in any group setting since it is gatherers from every player in group through buffs/debuffs and everything in between. > > > No policy needs to be changed since every tool you require to correct the situation is available already. > > > > And again, I disagree. You can ignore my LFG and join me even if your dps meter is not welcome in my party. I have no power to control my group meanwhile you have all the power over me. What's even better, I can be kicked from my own group (not squad) if you join me first or with 2 more guys like you and kick me ignoring my LFG. Yes, I can report you. But the damage is done. I lost my group, lost my progress (if we made any) and have to start over. I am against giving you all the power and removing this power from me. > > > > All players in the game are equal. You can ask me to share my dps numbers if I join you and if I don't agree - kick me. Current system gives you this advantage. But when you join me I can't protect myself from you watching me. We don't have to play together, but we should have equal power in game to decide about our party. People using arcDPS are above people playing without this tool. This is not okay because it's 3rd party hack which I have no desire to use. And this breaks the very rule of 3rd party apps written by ArenaNet - you have advantage over me, you can control my account (and me as a player) without my consent. > > One it doesn’t give more power over another player or over another players account. Two you are making excuses for not posting your own LFG again players look for LFG posts based on their needs/wants so you will most likely turn away the toxic elitists using Combat Meters since your post will tell them your playstyle doesn’t match theirs.and Three Nope, Combat Meters don’t break Anet Policy since Anet Devs have stated on Official AMAs their stance and Policy on Combat Meters which supersedes their copy pasted third party policy which even states their policy can change at any given time as stated in the TOS. > > And if you join group content you give consent as stated by Anet. > > Any other misinformation for me to correct? I already explained why making my own LFG is not a solution to the issue I'm presenting. I usually start my own groups but even if I state I don't want people with dps meters, they can still join and use this tool spying on me. This is wrong. If the policy can be changed at any time, I am asking for the change. My reasoning is stated multiple times here already. BGDM didn't allow people to watch others DPS until thei allowed it and so should arc dps, the last approved dps tool. This is what I'm asking for. > Like plenty of people have said before, the only reason you'd have a problem with people looking at your DPS is because you're not good and you want to hide your bad performance. Being able to see everyone's DPS in a raid or a T4 lets me know that I am not playing with good players and that I should just leave the group instead of wasting time wondering why we keep wiping. If my suggestion was implemented you can always demand me to share my dps meter before we start and kick me if I refuse so you save even more time that you would waste otherwise wiping with me. And again, this personla gripe is absolutely proving my point. The toxicity these tools going wild provide iis beyond reason. You are already assuming I do something wrong because I ask the game developers to respect my right as a player to make decisions about my account while playing with other players. You already labeled me as poor player and deadweight. But if I called you "toxic *random insult*" because you want to watch me, you would be offended how dare I call you this if I don't know you. You don't know me sir, don't assume things because you may be going to apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anhellbro.7210 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 LMAO 90% of ppl do 1000-2000 dps and wonna do raids when normap ppl dp 30000-40000. we need ofical group dps metr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haishao.6851 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, **allowing this tool has come with certain oversight** that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **I accept that players have different goals** and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players. **Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it** and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.** ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the tool has to exist in the game, **make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works. **It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool**. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules. > > > > > > > > > > > > Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept. > > > > > > > > > > But if I create my own group I have no power to know who uses this tool. People can ignore my LFG, join MY group and kick me. My request is to avoid such situation, so I can actually do what you suggest - make my group and control the fact that others can't spy on me without my consent. Currently random person using this tool has an advantage over me using vanilla game client without hacks. This is ridiculous situation. > > > > > > > > Again Post your group say no Combat Meters in the LFG and then when someone tries to be a toxic kitten using Combat Meter vote to kick them and report them, because I doubt there will be many people using Combat Meters to join your LFG post stating no Combat Meters, since those groups tend to attract others they wouldn’t want to group with, and they probably won’t just vote to kick you without raging in /p as the basis of your complaint stands upon so most times the 3 other people in your group will more than likely be of your mindset of no Combat Meters and won’t vote to kick you, since it takes 4 others to kick someone. > > > > > > But this is only working after "damage" is done (pun intended), it's not preventing such situations. Meanwhile, if my request is to be applied it works for both sides. You can request to play with dps meter and share with everyone beforehand so if anyone joins and refuses to share you can kick him before the fight saving your time watching their poor dps. > > > > > > > Also because there seems to be a lack of understanding here, Combat Data is in no way private or personal data/information especially in any group setting. > > > > > > > > > And this is what I'm asking for to be changed in the policy. > > > > I gave you the perfect answer to handle the situation if it would ever arise, legitimately no damage would be done or very little Anet provided you every tool to combat those toxic players from LFG descriptions to Block/report /kick from Party. > > > > Again in Group settings that Combat data is already not Private or personal since it is a combination of the group as a whole, you have no ownership of it and by aren’t spyin in you, again you are in no way entitled to other players time if you join their group and are underperforming, and if you start your own group with a clear cut LFG description and someone tries to be a toxic kitten then kick block and report them. > > > > One last time since it seems to have to be repeated multiple times, consent is given upon Group join, all combat data is not owned or private in any group setting since it is gatherers from every player in group through buffs/debuffs and everything in between. > > No policy needs to be changed since every tool you require to correct the situation is available already. > > And again, I disagree. You can ignore my LFG and join me even if your dps meter is not welcome in my party. I have no power to control my group meanwhile you have all the power over me. What's even better, I can be kicked from my own group (not squad) if you join me first or with 2 more guys like you and kick me ignoring my LFG. Yes, I can report you. But the damage is done. I lost my group, lost my progress (if we made any) and have to start over. I am against giving you all the power and removing this power from me. > > All players in the game are equal. You can ask me to share my dps numbers if I join you and if I don't agree - kick me. Current system gives you this advantage. But when you join me I can't protect myself from you watching me. We don't have to play together, but we should have equal power in game to decide about our party. People using arcDPS are above people playing without this tool. This is not okay because it's 3rd party hack which I have no desire to use. And this breaks the very rule of 3rd party apps written by ArenaNet - you have advantage over me, you can control my account (and me as a player) without my consent. This sounds more like a group management issue than a DPS meter issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savacli.8172 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > I'm not denying anyone their right to use dps meters or request me to use one. But it should be MY decision that you can watch my performance. If I don't agree - kick me, that's your right. But give me back my power to decide about my account. So, what you're telling me is that I need to blindfold myself if I'm in the same party/squad as you so that I don't watch your performance? I don't need a meter to know whether you're playing badly or not. Meters just give data evidence. Long before there were DPS meters you could still look at your fellow mate and take a guess at his performance. If you're just sitting their with a ranger longbow and I see nothing but you hitting pew pew with your auto attack you better believe people will notice that. If your character is pulling off all the right animations and damage is still low as a whole? Well, you're probably last on my list to question since visually you look in tact. In a casual setting though, no one pays attention to either of these details be it visually or data driven observation. If I'm in a party with you and we're doing Molten Boss Duo Fractal? I don't care at all what you run. If you joined my "100 CM Exp'd" group? then yup, I'm pulling up the meter for that. > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > If my suggestion was implemented you can always demand me to share my dps meter before we start and kick me if I refuse so you save even more time that you would waste otherwise wiping with me. Or, that whole conversation can be avoided in the first place because I already have access to public data, and upon you joining my group I assume you already read the criteria in my post. I'm not the one to play 20 questions when someone joins my groups, **that** would be a waste of time. I simply let people tag along and play the game. If they were lying about their qualifications it'll be very apparent, meter or not. > @Kheldorn.5123 said: >And again, this personla gripe is absolutely proving my point. The toxicity these tools going wild provide iis beyond reason. You are already assuming I do something wrong because I ask the game developers to respect my right as a player to make decisions about my account while playing with other players. You already labeled me as poor player and deadweight. But if I called you "toxic random insult" because you want to watch me, you would be offended how dare I call you this if I don't know you. /Looks at terms and conditions for Combat data use Nope, your player rights aren't being violated. And sure you have the right to petition that. But by the same token, the rest of the community has the right to agree or disagree with your petition. Sadly, in your case, the forum community seems to be against your suggestion. Welcome to democracy. If you want to keep fighting it, go for it, but the thread itself looks to have already won the vote on this. And yes, players will watch you whether you want to or not. Why? Well, for one, you share pixels with them on the screen. Secondly, this is an MMO, so what you do does make an impact on me if we're in the same group or squad. So yes, players are in the [moral] right to watch your performance. And like many other MMO's we have been provided the thumbs up and tools to collect more accurate data Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 > So, what you're telling me is that I need to blindfold myself if I'm in the same party/squad as you so that I don't watch your performance? If you join my group you should follow my group rules. But if I join you and refuse to share my dps you can kick me. And I already commented about people joining my group and still using dps meters even if I ask them not to. This is why you have unfair advantage over me even though we paid for the same game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javelin.7960 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I guess I don't understand why people have an issue with the OPs position. He's not arguing for DPS meters to be illegal, just that each player have an opt-in/out choice. A publicly visible choice. Don't want players who opt-out of DPS meters in your group? Don't invite them. What is wrong with choice? It sounds like people just want to impose their idea of how the game should function on everyone else, when there are better options possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erulogos.2591 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @ProverbsofHell.2307 said: > > There you have it. > A reasonable, normal person won't do such a thing. They know it's casual content. Only someone with behavioral issues will act this way, and indeed, they'll do that with or without the meter. And I see no reason to ruin the perks of having Arcdps just because some people happen to have it and happen to be jerks. > You... haven't been online very long, it sounds like? You're assuming much, much greater goodwill and reasonable conduct than I have ever seen in over a decade of playing MMOs and other online games. Penny Arcade made a now infamous comic explaining a part of why this is the case, and others have explained the other part (essentially, online anonymity causes some people to indulge in worse impulses than they otherwise might, and the anonymity of other players causes many to see them as slightly more capable NPCs rather than real people, both factors combining to utterly toxic behaviors.) Now, DPS meters don't cause these issues, but they do enable the bad behaviors by providing 'objective' measures that people engaged in toxic behaviors use to justify their actions. The community is a little less forgiving and friendly due to their existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 13, 2017 Author Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Javelin.7960 said: > I guess I don't understand why people have an issue with the OPs position. He's not arguing for DPS meters to be illegal, just that each player have an opt-in/out choice. A publicly visible choice. Don't want players who opt-out of DPS meters in your group? Don't invite them. > > What is wrong with choice? It sounds like people just want to impose their idea of how the game should function on everyone else, when there are better options possible. Thank you. I have no idea how else I can word my reasoning. I don't want take away dps meters from anyone. I want to control what data my account shares to other players, especially that it's not in game tool but 3rd party literal hack that I have no control over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odinens.5920 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I don't currently use a dps meter, but would should I need it. As in, I don't currently PvE raid or do fractals. Keep in mind I have always used one if it's allowed in the mmo I currently play, so here's my issue with them - I always see the "meter pushers" using reasons like "now we can see who is trying to slide by just auto-attacking," or "I don't want someone in the group that's being lazy..." I could go on. See, if you can't tell if someone is auto-attacking by observing them, I don't think I want to be in YOUR group. Also, you can't tell if someone is being lazy or if they are having a sudden health issue, or pet issue, or whatever issue, by looking at a meter. Life happens. I know there are lot's of people that do not use these imaginary reasons to advocate their use, and know how to use them correctly in group settings, of which I am one. Unfortunately the people that DO use these lame reasons are the main reason I haven't pugged a raid (or fractal, if you will) in almost 10 years. Quit using the lame excuses as a cover for crappy behavior, like booting someone from a group without so much as a helpful tip, or discussion. Or even worse. calling them names or some juvenile crap that makes them want to quit the game. Sorry, that's bullying, and has no place in an mmo, or any social activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savacli.8172 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > So, what you're telling me is that I need to blindfold myself if I'm in the same party/squad as you so that I don't watch your performance? > > If you join my group you should follow my group rules. But if I join you and refuse to share my dps you can kick me. > > And I already commented about people joining my group and still using dps meters even if I ask them not to. This is why you have unfair advantage over me even though we paid for the same game. If I joined your group and didn't follow your rules I'm 100% in the wrong there, and I'm the one to get the boot. But the majority of this thread is not about **your** group, it's about grouping in the game in general. And yes, based on comments on this thread It's safe to say the majority of the players like having the availability of the data for tools like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Javelin.7960 said: > I didn't say it caused him to be rude, I said he was rude, in the way that he was, because of the meter. It's true, and I stated such in my original post, that he could as easily have been rude a million other ways, but the fact is he *wasn't*. The DPS meter enabled him, in that regard. Ignoring the DPS meters role in his behavior is, to re-use the analogy I used earlier, like declaring that drunk drivers will always find a way, so we shouldn't bother outlawing in car kegerators. The first part of the statement is true, the second is not at all. You're splitting hairs. The player was going to be rude with or without the DPS meter. It's not helping your case to keep bringing it up (or to compare it to drunk driving) because both ideas are, at best, contentious. (Driving Drunk is illegal; playing while rude is not. Prohibiting alcohol in the car reduces the temptation to drink & drive; eliminating DPS meters doesn't eliminate the temptation to impose toxic opinions on four other players.) The pro-DPS argument offers specific benefits to both high-performing and less-skilled players who use it properly. If you want to convince anyone, include folks on the fence about it or those trying to see things from multiple angles, it's important to offer arguments that are specific to DPS meters, and don't depend on people who are going to be rude regardless of circumstance. tl;dr I'm not even asking you to change your mind about your views on DPS meters. I'm offering you my opinion about your choice of rhetorical devices: it's turning off folks like myself who might be convinced to your position a stronger example or argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynn.1659 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 It's not like people were not getting kicked before for arbitrary reasons. Oh wait they did? Not enough ap, kick, wrong class kick. Game is in a much better place now, because of the meters, now people can tell if build is viable for something. Instead of kicking people based on their class, before even starting the content, because of assumptions that class is terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda.1967 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, **allowing this tool has come with certain oversight** that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > **I accept that players have different goals** and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players. **Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it** and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers? > > > > > > > > > > > > **I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.** ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the tool has to exist in the game, **make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.** > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works. **It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool**. > > > > > > > > > > > > Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > **EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?** > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules. > > > > > > > > > > Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters. > > > > > > > > > > If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept. > > > > > > > > But if I create my own group I have no power to know who uses this tool. People can ignore my LFG, join MY group and kick me. My request is to avoid such situation, so I can actually do what you suggest - make my group and control the fact that others can't spy on me without my consent. Currently random person using this tool has an advantage over me using vanilla game client without hacks. This is ridiculous situation. > > > > > > Again Post your group say no Combat Meters in the LFG and then when someone tries to be a toxic kitten using Combat Meter vote to kick them and report them, because I doubt there will be many people using Combat Meters to join your LFG post stating no Combat Meters, since those groups tend to attract others they wouldn’t want to group with, and they probably won’t just vote to kick you without raging in /p as the basis of your complaint stands upon so most times the 3 other people in your group will more than likely be of your mindset of no Combat Meters and won’t vote to kick you, since it takes 4 others to kick someone. > > > > But this is only working after "damage" is done (pun intended), it's not preventing such situations. Meanwhile, if my request is to be applied it works for both sides. You can request to play with dps meter and share with everyone beforehand so if anyone joins and refuses to share you can kick him before the fight saving your time watching their poor dps. > > > > > Also because there seems to be a lack of understanding here, Combat Data is in no way private or personal data/information especially in any group setting. > > > > > > And this is what I'm asking for to be changed in the policy. > > I gave you the perfect answer to handle the situation if it would ever arise, legitimately no damage would be done or very little Anet provided you every tool to combat those toxic players from LFG descriptions to Block/report /kick from Party. > > Again in Group settings that Combat data is already not Private or personal since it is a combination of the group as a whole, you have no ownership of it and by aren’t spyin in you, again you are in no way entitled to other players time if you join their group and are underperforming, and if you start your own group with a clear cut LFG description and someone tries to be a toxic kitten then kick block and report them, and remember you can’t be kicked from group without majority of players voting to kick you, so if your LFG post for your group was clear enough you will mostly be grouped with like minded people to you. > > One last time since it seems to have to be repeated multiple times, consent is given upon Group join, all combat data is not owned or private in any group setting since it is gatherers from every player in group through buffs/debuffs and everything in between. > No policy needs to be changed since every tool you require to correct the situation is available already. You don't seem to be grasping the problem here. The issue is that people who want to be DPS meter jockies join casual groups and disrupt their runs with their DPS meter spam and harassment. And yes, there are people who don't use DPS meters who join hardcore runs and disrupt their enjoyment as well. This is an issue on both ends. The proposed solution is actually a win-win for both sides. If DPS meters only show data for others who have the meter, **PERIOD**, then yes there will be instances of people getting kicked for not having a DPS meter. But those instances will be fewer and farther between than the current problems with them. When they only show data for those who use them, then groups that don't want them can have anyone join without fear of being harassed over DPS by some "tryhard" who thought it would be amusing to join their group, since the guy with the DPS meter will only see his own date. The groups that want to use DPS meters can ask the person who doesn't have one to get one or leave, and they won't have to worry about having some "filthy casual" joined their group and isn't pulling their weight. They will know at the start that "this player doesn't have a DPS meter" and they can take action before their run even starts. The ultimate end result, BOTH groups spend less time repeating content, BOTH groups spend less time looking for a replacement party member. BOTH groups are happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javelin.7960 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > @Javelin.7960 said: > > I didn't say it caused him to be rude, I said he was rude, in the way that he was, because of the meter. It's true, and I stated such in my original post, that he could as easily have been rude a million other ways, but the fact is he *wasn't*. The DPS meter enabled him, in that regard. Ignoring the DPS meters role in his behavior is, to re-use the analogy I used earlier, like declaring that drunk drivers will always find a way, so we shouldn't bother outlawing in car kegerators. The first part of the statement is true, the second is not at all. > > You're splitting hairs. The player was going to be rude with or without the DPS meter. It's not helping your case to keep bringing it up (or to compare it to drunk driving) because both ideas are, at best, contentious. (Driving Drunk is illegal; playing while rude is not. Prohibiting alcohol in the car reduces the temptation to drink & drive; eliminating DPS meters doesn't eliminate the temptation to impose toxic opinions on four other players.) That's your opinion, and one that I, and from the sound of it others in this thread, completely disagree with. DPS meters do encourage toxic players to impose their toxicity on others, that's *exactly* what basically everyone in this thread who is arguing for their restriction is saying. You're entitled to your opinion, so am I. I'd invite you to respond to this question, though: >I guess I don't understand why people have an issue with the OPs position. He's not arguing for DPS meters to be illegal, just that each player have an opt-in/out choice. A publicly visible choice. Don't want players who opt-out of DPS meters in your group? Don't invite them. >What is wrong with choice? It sounds like people just want to impose their idea of how the game should function on everyone else, when there are better options possible. Because that's the piece that's puzzling to me, why does the pro-meter crowd seem so hell-bent on making everyone else play the game their way? > The pro-DPS argument offers specific benefits to both high-performing and less-skilled players who use it properly. If you want to convince anyone, include folks on the fence about it or those trying to see things from multiple angles, it's important to offer arguments that are specific to DPS meters, and don't depend on people who are going to be rude regardless of circumstance. > > tl;dr I'm not even asking you to change your mind about your views on DPS meters. I'm offering you my opinion about your choice of rhetorical devices: it's turning off folks like myself who might be convinced to your position a stronger example or argument. Honestly I think you don't like my rhetoric because it's inconvenient to you, not because it's turning anyone off. It's a perfectly valid comparison, and serves to illustrate a simple point: The tools people use when they behave badly matter. A heckler screaming at a baseball game is often a tolerated annoyance, if that same person sneaks an electric megaphone in, they're getting kicked out of the ballpark and possibly banned for life. They were irritating before, add technology and they are a seriously disruptive nuisance. DPS meters enable jerks to be more disruptive in the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Panda.1967 said: > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, **allowing this tool has come with certain oversight** that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **I accept that players have different goals** and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players. **Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it** and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game.** ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the tool has to exist in the game, **make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works. **It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool**. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules. > > > > > > > > > > > > Joining someone else’s group is you consenting to Combat Meters, Anet has stated this, they have also stated that Combat information is not private information, so no players privacy is infringed upon, and consent is given at time of joining someone else’s group, all things covered by Anets statements on Combat meters. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you don’t like Combat Meters only start your own groups, and kick anyone that uses them for toxic reasons, pretty simple concept. > > > > > > > > > > But if I create my own group I have no power to know who uses this tool. People can ignore my LFG, join MY group and kick me. My request is to avoid such situation, so I can actually do what you suggest - make my group and control the fact that others can't spy on me without my consent. Currently random person using this tool has an advantage over me using vanilla game client without hacks. This is ridiculous situation. > > > > > > > > Again Post your group say no Combat Meters in the LFG and then when someone tries to be a toxic kitten using Combat Meter vote to kick them and report them, because I doubt there will be many people using Combat Meters to join your LFG post stating no Combat Meters, since those groups tend to attract others they wouldn’t want to group with, and they probably won’t just vote to kick you without raging in /p as the basis of your complaint stands upon so most times the 3 other people in your group will more than likely be of your mindset of no Combat Meters and won’t vote to kick you, since it takes 4 others to kick someone. > > > > > > But this is only working after "damage" is done (pun intended), it's not preventing such situations. Meanwhile, if my request is to be applied it works for both sides. You can request to play with dps meter and share with everyone beforehand so if anyone joins and refuses to share you can kick him before the fight saving your time watching their poor dps. > > > > > > > Also because there seems to be a lack of understanding here, Combat Data is in no way private or personal data/information especially in any group setting. > > > > > > > > > And this is what I'm asking for to be changed in the policy. > > > > I gave you the perfect answer to handle the situation if it would ever arise, legitimately no damage would be done or very little Anet provided you every tool to combat those toxic players from LFG descriptions to Block/report /kick from Party. > > > > Again in Group settings that Combat data is already not Private or personal since it is a combination of the group as a whole, you have no ownership of it and by aren’t spyin in you, again you are in no way entitled to other players time if you join their group and are underperforming, and if you start your own group with a clear cut LFG description and someone tries to be a toxic kitten then kick block and report them, and remember you can’t be kicked from group without majority of players voting to kick you, so if your LFG post for your group was clear enough you will mostly be grouped with like minded people to you. > > > > One last time since it seems to have to be repeated multiple times, consent is given upon Group join, all combat data is not owned or private in any group setting since it is gatherers from every player in group through buffs/debuffs and everything in between. > > No policy needs to be changed since every tool you require to correct the situation is available already. > > You don't seem to be grasping the problem here. > > The issue is that people who want to be DPS meter jockies join casual groups and disrupt their runs with their DPS meter spam and harassment. And yes, there are people who don't use DPS meters who join hardcore runs and disrupt their enjoyment as well. This is an issue on both ends. The proposed solution is actually a win-win for both sides. > > If DPS meters only show data for others who have the meter, **PERIOD**, then yes there will be instances of people getting kicked for not having a DPS meter. But those instances will be fewer and farther between than the current problems with them. When they only show data for those who use them, then groups that don't want them can have anyone join without fear of being harassed over DPS by some "tryhard" who thought it would be amusing to join their group, since the guy with the DPS meter will only see his own date. The groups that want to use DPS meters can ask the person who doesn't have one to get one or leave, and they won't have to worry about having some "filthy casual" joined their group and isn't pulling their weight. They will know at the start that "this player doesn't have a DPS meter" and they can take action before their run even starts. > > The ultimate end result, BOTH groups spend less time repeating content, BOTH groups spend less time looking for a replacement party member. BOTH groups are happy. Again post clear LFG since most DPS jockeys as you put it won’t join groups that advertise no Dps Meters, and if they do and try to be a kitten then the party members kick those players being a kitten with Combat Meters it’s a extremely simple concept, all the tools are available. Again the Policy on Meters is known, toxic behavior can be reported etc. One more time Toxic players will join groups to be toxic no matter what, Meters or not, history has proven this and so have the threads on players merging squads to disrupt others groups with no Meters involved, funny how that works. And you still don’t don’t grasp the concept hat solutions are already in game, and purport this to be a much bigger issue than it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda.1967 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @VaaCrow.3076 said: > Have you considered that i don't care about someone being sensitive, or that someone has a "thin skin" or is easily offended, or if someone has issues etc. And i don't believe that everyone should be given respect just because they're a human being, respect is EARNED, not given. As for being positive, you do you. > Actually, respect is given, not earned. A little fact of reality. People who believe respect is earned, not given, expect others to respect them before they in turn respect others. That's a one-sided exchange, they expect others to GIVE them respect before they GIVE respect back. It is in fact given, not earned. I'm sure you've heard it said before as well "if you expect others to respect you, you must show them respect first". Yeah, it's given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Panda.1967 said: > > @VaaCrow.3076 said: > > Have you considered that i don't care about someone being sensitive, or that someone has a "thin skin" or is easily offended, or if someone has issues etc. And i don't believe that everyone should be given respect just because they're a human being, respect is EARNED, not given. As for being positive, you do you. > > > > Actually, respect is given, not earned. A little fact of reality. People who believe respect is earned, not given, expect others to respect them before they in turn respect others. That's a one-sided exchange, they expect others to GIVE them respect before they GIVE respect back. It is in fact given, not earned. I'm sure you've heard it said before as well "if you expect others to respect you, you must show them respect first". Yeah, it's given. Nonsense. I show respect for deeds and I don't care if the one whom I respects respects me or not. If anything, I don't want to be given respect *by default*. I want people to respect me for who I am and for what I've done. That's the only respect that matters. The rest is just hollow politeness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @Javelin.7960 said: > > I guess I don't understand why people have an issue with the OPs position. He's not arguing for DPS meters to be illegal, just that each player have an opt-in/out choice. A publicly visible choice. Don't want players who opt-out of DPS meters in your group? Don't invite them. > > > > What is wrong with choice? It sounds like people just want to impose their idea of how the game should function on everyone else, when there are better options possible. > > Thank you. I have no idea how else I can word my reasoning. I don't want take away dps meters from anyone. I want to control what data my account shares to other players, especially that it's not in game tool but 3rd party literal hack that I have no control over. Still, you're creating a problem when there is none. Nobody cares, except for you. You're asking for trouble and for loss of QoL. Your request will increase elitism and toxicity for no good reason. Please stop this already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javelin.7960 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 This thread, which has existed for less than half a day, is already nearly four pages long. On a forum where most posts don't even hit page 2, after days. No one cares? Could have fooled me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Your concerns about an invasion of privacy are misplaced and misguided. ArcDps doesn't invade or infringe upon your rights as it only estimates the input of people not using the meter based on the time for combat, mob health and known quantities (other people using the tool). Therefore if someone estimating your input is what you think of as an invasion of privacy then you might need to pause and consider the following, people even without the meter make baseless estimations and guesses about user performance all the time. If it was me, i'd much rather an educated estimation than the prior class based discrimination that used to occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savacli.8172 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > @Javelin.7960 said: > > > I guess I don't understand why people have an issue with the OPs position. He's not arguing for DPS meters to be illegal, just that each player have an opt-in/out choice. A publicly visible choice. Don't want players who opt-out of DPS meters in your group? Don't invite them. > > > > > > What is wrong with choice? It sounds like people just want to impose their idea of how the game should function on everyone else, when there are better options possible. > > > > Thank you. I have no idea how else I can word my reasoning. I don't want take away dps meters from anyone. I want to control what data my account shares to other players, especially that it's not in game tool but 3rd party literal hack that I have no control over. > > Still, you're creating a problem when there is none. Nobody cares, except for you. You're asking for trouble and for loss of QoL. Your request will increase elitism and toxicity for no good reason. Please stop this already. +1 Bullies and toxic people will be bullies and toxic regardless of what situation you put them in. Today's controversy is DPS meters. Tomorrow's controversy maybe something like the head shapes of Asurans. I kid you not I have seen an LFG group that was adamant that your character had to be Korean K-Pop look-alike (or however that's supposed to be worded). I present you cars. They were designed to be a means of transportation. In the ideal world, no one gets road rage, everyone stops at the red, and everyone goes the limit. With all the problems we have with cars we might as well take them away, no? But really, the tool will never be the problem. The problem will always be with the person using the tool. Use ArcDPS to measure your raid squad's performance and look for areas to coach struggling squadmates? Perfect! Use the tool to point out and laugh at the guy coming i dead last for DPS? That's just being mean. In regards to why the pro-DPS folks are against OP's idea? Well, we originally fought for publicly available combat data to begin with. And now that it's available of course we're gonna defend that it doesn't get taken away. Like I said in my other post OP has every right to share his opinion; it's just that practically everyone disagrees with him. It happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 The only few cases where dps meters are indeed discriminating is for raids and high level fractals. Well, I'm sorry, but if your dps cause the whole group to waste their time, they should be allowed to kick you. As long as it's done politely (and that you didn't lie on your skill... which happens too much), there is nothing wrong with it. You can make your own group and set your own rules. Some groups want to go fast and love talking about meme dps... you might not agree with it and it's your choice. But there are lots of other groups that aren't so picky about it. Also without DPS meters, people will be even more demanding about Kill proofs, titles and LIs and stuff. You can't stop people from playing the way they want and if you don't join their group, it doesn't impact you. > @Panda.1967 said: > > @VaaCrow.3076 said: > > Have you considered that i don't care about someone being sensitive, or that someone has a "thin skin" or is easily offended, or if someone has issues etc. And i don't believe that everyone should be given respect just because they're a human being, respect is EARNED, not given. As for being positive, you do you. > > > > Actually, respect is given, not earned. A little fact of reality. People who believe respect is earned, not given, expect others to respect them before they in turn respect others. That's a one-sided exchange, they expect others to GIVE them respect before they GIVE respect back. It is in fact given, not earned. I'm sure you've heard it said before as well "if you expect others to respect you, you must show them respect first". Yeah, it's given. I want to quote this to insist on how much this matters, and how much Anet should enforce it. You don't have the choice to respect or not another being, you must respect them, as part of most ToS of online communities. This is indeed a given. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallesafe.5932 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Panda.1967 said: > You don't seem to be grasping the problem here. > > The issue is that people who want to be DPS meter jockies join casual groups and disrupt their runs with their DPS meter spam and harassment. And yes, there are people who don't use DPS meters who join hardcore runs and disrupt their enjoyment as well. This is an issue on both ends. The proposed solution is actually a win-win for both sides. But, once again... this is a made-up concern that people are blowing air into for the sake of the thread. Nobody is joining casual groups and harassing people over their DPS. It doesn't happen. I pugged fractals, from 1 to 100, over six months, and never heard ANYBODY say ANYTHING to ANYONE about their DPS. This is about as substantive as the "privacy invasion" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javelin.7960 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Fallesafe.5932 said: > > @Panda.1967 said: > > You don't seem to be grasping the problem here. > > > > The issue is that people who want to be DPS meter jockies join casual groups and disrupt their runs with their DPS meter spam and harassment. And yes, there are people who don't use DPS meters who join hardcore runs and disrupt their enjoyment as well. This is an issue on both ends. The proposed solution is actually a win-win for both sides. > > But, once again... this is a made-up concern that people are blowing air into for the sake of the thread. Nobody is joining casual groups and harassing people over their DPS. It doesn't happen. I pugged fractals from 1 to 100 over six months and never heard ANYBODY say ANYTHING to another player about their DPS. This is about as substantive as the "privacy invasion" argument. It never happened to me ≠ it never happens. I've been playing this game since launch day. I've never gotten a precursor drop. No one has never gotten a precursor drop. Doesn't make sense, does it? You're basically calling everyone in this thread who says they have experienced this behavior a liar. If that's what you think, why bother responding at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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