If you're going to outbid on the trading post, it should be by a minimum of 5%

[UnbentMars.9126]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> > @UnbentMars.9126 said:

> > > @Mercury.9784 said:

> > Market simulation is not a function of a game, if you want that then go play monopoly or something, therefore you expecting it/desiring it to be fun is ridiculous. And if no one else here is disagreeing it's a problem, let me be the first:

>

> I actually made that exact same point earlier in the thread. I mentioned that if you can sacrifice a little 'it's like a real market' for a significant increase in friendliness and fun, you should do it.

>

> However, when I made my point, I didn't make it with a derisive and hostile "go play another game" attitude.

 

Really? Well then color me confused since you seem to be wanting to play the game of 'anyone who disagrees with me is being derisive and hostile', especially since you didn't respond to the rest of my comment and instead simply selectively replied to something that didn't happen

[UnbentMars.9126]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > Prices would skyrocket, bad idea. The reason real world auction houses do this is because they make a commission on the sale, the BLTC's profit margin should not be our primary concern.

>

> I don't think you understand my suggestion if you think it would make prices skyrocket.

>

> Also my primary concern is people being able to drop into the interface without knowing much about it, place an order, and receive their item, without having to struggle with outbidding people, or worse, to not be aware of the problem and simply become frustrated at how orders never seem to execute.

 

So tell me how you are figuring out that it's just one person beating you out for things? Since, you know, there are tens of thousands of concurrent players at all times?

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > >I keep getting into wars over individual pennies with other trading post user

> >

> > And I don’t. I post it then I leave it. Eventually it will sell for the price I posted it for, usually within a few days. If it never sells (weeks to momths) then obviously I posted too high. Don’t be getting into trade wars. Give it time to sell.

>

> Yeah. That's fine for high-volume items.

>

> Although it seems you're referring to selling, which has a built in protection of a listing fee. Can't fight over pennies then. But buy orders don't have that protection. People are free to fight over pennies. I brought up an analogy earlier that I still think fits well. If this behavior happened in a real action house, where you would occasionally get a small number of people outbidding by one penny for hours, they would swiftly implement a 'minimum increased bid' rule. I think Guild Wars 2 should have something like that, too.

 

/shrug. I do that with buy orders also. There’s not many items that you just have to have immediately. Post a bid, and give it a day. If it hasn’t gone through in a day or two then repost. At that point if it’s really the wrong price then it will be more than a few copper and your wish to have a higher minimum overbid will be met. It’s just like real life you know. You put your bid out and wait. Being impatient only costs you money

[Mercury.9784]

> @UnbentMars.9126 said:

> Really? Well then color me confused since you seem to be wanting to play the game of 'anyone who disagrees with me is being derisive and hostile', especially since you didn't respond to the rest of my comment and instead simply selectively replied to something that didn't happen

 

Do you believe it's not confrontational when you tell me to go play monopoly instead?

 

It's not my intention to start an argument, but if you're accusing me of playing the victim when you are just approaching me with a polite and constructive disagreement, I think you should reevaluate how you approach people. Please, just relax, okay brah? :) Try not to get too wrapped up in it. I'm just pointing out a problem. If you don't think it's a problem, that's okay. No reason to hate me.

[dbill.7483]

I think the confusion here is that you believe the trading post is like eBay instead of Craigslist. You are not being "outbid", you chose the price you are willing to accept.

Someone else decided they are willing to accept less for that item. Eventually there may be someone willing to buy you item at the price you listed (or not).

 

[UnbentMars.9126]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> > @UnbentMars.9126 said:

> > Really? Well then color me confused since you seem to be wanting to play the game of 'anyone who disagrees with me is being derisive and hostile', especially since you didn't respond to the rest of my comment and instead simply selectively replied to something that didn't happen

>

> Do you believe it's not confrontational when you tell me to go play monopoly instead?

>

> It's not my intention to start an argument, but if you're accusing me of playing the victim when you are just approaching me with a polite and constructive disagreement, I think you should reevaluate how you approach people. Please, just relax, okay brah? :) Try not to get too wrapped up in it. I'm just pointing out a problem. If you don't think it's a problem, that's okay. No reason to hate me.

 

No, as I didn't tell you to go play monopoly instead of GW2, I suggested a location you might find a market simulator instead given you were claiming the behavior you are complaining about is irrepresentative of a market system (which its not, its the very essence of the stock market and goods/services price changes).

 

Your reactions are your choice, not mine, and I have neither the intention of or inclination to care about your reasonings behind why you react a certain way. Also, playing the umadbro card is so 2007. Did you want to discuss your supposed discussion or did you want to (poorly) attempt to get someone else upset?

[Mercury.9784]

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> /shrug. I do that with buy orders also. There’s not many items that you just have to have immediately. Post a bid, and give it a day. If it hasn’t gone through in a day or two then repost. At that point if it’s really the wrong price then it will be more than a few copper and your wish to have a higher minimum overbid will be met. It’s just like real life you know. You put your bid out and wait. Being impatient only costs you money

 

That's definitely true. But the period in which a trade will actually execute for you is the same as the period for which you remain at the top of the queue, which is fine when the order queue is not being deliberately manipulated by other players so that your 'time on top' remains as short as possible. There are ways around this issue. You can simply increase your bid by 5%. That way you're not fighting over pennies anymore. They could raise it by 5% plus one penny, but then you just do another 5% until you find the troll's limit.

 

So I can see the other side. If you don't want to play hardball there are certain options.

 

However, there is no option for you if you just want to match the current buy order, and sit back and wait for it to be fulfilled, unless there's significant demand pressure that causes the 'penny bidders' to run out of capital, which will happen frequenly with high volume items but extremely infrequently if you're talking about, say, buying a legendary.

 

So as it stands most people probably get swiftly frustrated with putting in a buy order for a legendary, and will simply take the asking price, which could easily have been a flip sale by one of the 'penny bidders'. So they get to walk away with quite a bit of benefit from this little hole in the system.

 

All these economic technicalities aside. I don't think anyone could present a reason not to do it. (Aside from the one guy who thinks that prices would just rise unbounded forever.) Frankly I'm quite suprised it wasn't in there from the beginning.

[Chickenooble.5014]

Can someone explain to me what the problem is? Is it the posting part of the TP allows you to post things 1C lower than other posts, or is it the OP is trying to play the market and is getting beat down by other capitalists? I'm having a hard time seeing how either is a problem...

[UnbentMars.9126]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> > @UnbentMars.9126 said:

> > Really? Well then color me confused since you seem to be wanting to play the game of 'anyone who disagrees with me is being derisive and hostile', especially since you didn't respond to the rest of my comment and instead simply selectively replied to something that didn't happen

>

> Do you believe it's not confrontational when you tell me to go play monopoly instead?

>

> It's not my intention to start an argument, but if you're accusing me of playing the victim when you are just approaching me with a polite and constructive disagreement, I think you should reevaluate how you approach people. Please, just relax, okay brah? :) Try not to get too wrapped up in it. I'm just pointing out a problem. If you don't think it's a problem, that's okay. No reason to hate me.

 

No, as I simply listed a place where you could find a market simulator with rules you seem to desire more. If that's a problem for you, well, that's just a problem for you.

 

Your reactions are your choice and I have neither the interest nor the inclination to manage your responses and reactions to something, so any reevaluation is something you should consider on your own terms. Also, instead of (poorly) playing the 'umadbro' card (come on, its a decade past 2007, move on), you should consider discussing your actual discussion.

 

That is, unless you are just here to demand changes favorable to you with no regard to the greater game. If that's the case, then you should probably do that on the Elementalist Balance forum section (that's an example of telling you to go somewhere else).

[Mercury.9784]

> @Chickenooble.5014 said:

> Can someone explain to me what the problem is? Is it the posting part of the TP allows you to post things 1C lower than other posts, or is it the OP is trying to play the market and is getting beat down by other capitalists? I'm having a hard time seeing how either is a problem...

 

Imagine you're in an auction house, and you bid a thousand dollors for something, and the guy next to you bids one thousand dollars and one cent. Then you bid one thousand ane one hundred on it, so he bids one thousand one hundred and one cent.

 

That's a crude analogy (I can get into deeper details but I suspect this isn't the crowd) but it's basically what's happening in Guild Wars 2 all the time.

 

This problem affects ordinary players way more than capitalist sharks who are eager to 'play the market.' Ordinary players may not be aware that placing an order for a legendary has an extremely low chance of ever executing if you just match the current bid. This is a problem that benefits the capitalists at the expense of the ordinary player.

[Chickenooble.5014]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> > @Chickenooble.5014 said:

> > Can someone explain to me what the problem is? Is it the posting part of the TP allows you to post things 1C lower than other posts, or is it the OP is trying to play the market and is getting beat down by other capitalists? I'm having a hard time seeing how either is a problem...

>

> Imagine you're in an auction house, and you bid a thousand dollors for something, and the guy next to you bids one thousand dollars and one cent. Then you bid one thousand ane one hundred on it, so he bids one thousand one hundred and one cent.

>

> That's a crude analogy (I can get into deeper details but I suspect this isn't the crowd) but it's basically what's happening in Guild Wars 2 all the time.

>

> This problem affects ordinary players way more than capitalist sharks who are eager to 'play the market.' Ordinary players may not be aware that placing an order for a legendary has an extremely low chance of ever executing if you just match the current bid. This is a problem that benefits the capitalists at the expense of the ordinary player.

 

Using that analogy I see two people who are only marginally interested in an item and they're willing to engage in a bidding war of pennies. In a real life situation, If you really want to sell your item then you need to find a price that is reasonably lower but lower than the other person is willing to go. Same with buying... if you want to buy something, and the other guy is bidding pennies higher each time, then you can increase your bid to the point where the other guy doesn't find it worthwhile.

[Mercury.9784]

> @Chickenooble.5014 said:

> Using that analogy I see two people who are only marginally interested in an item and they're willing to engage in a bidding war of pennies. In a real life situation, If you really want to sell your item then you need to find a price that is reasonably lower but lower than the other person is willing to go. Same with buying... if you want to buy something, and the other guy is bidding pennies higher each time, then you can increase your bid to the point where the other guy doesn't find it worthwhile.

 

Yeah that's an option, and it's a solution in a sense. Just keep amping it up by 5% each time until the penny bidder gives up. The problem comes in, though, if you just want to be patient, just put in an order and wait.

 

Also, if you're going to have a bidding war, this will expedite the process. People just taking the 5% minimum over and over will arrive at a mutually satisfactory new price far faster than incrementing 1% or just pennies at a time. It would assure that the market rate responds swiftly to supply and demand, rather than being mired in oneupsmanship where market warriors take advantage of the tedium required to micromanage their orders in order to make some cash.

 

On the other side of things, there's no downside at all. If your true intention is to beat the current bid (not just match the current bid but ""beat"" it by one penny in order to maliciously manipulate the queue) then a small minimum percentage (1%, 5%, even 0.5%) will not be a problem for you. It was your intention to pay more than the current ask, so you're happy. If it was your intention to match the current ask and be patient, you're also going to be happy, because you know that you won't have to come back and mess around with pennies ever five minutes. You can just 'set it and forget it' and go back to playing the game with your friends.

[Djinn.9245]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> Now that I think about it, you actually will often have this sort of thing in real markets. If I'm not mistaken, ebay will force you to outbid by a certain amount. Maybe your average commodity/stock market site won't have this issue, but they will give access to trading APIs, so people can automate their trading. You can't expect someone's tolerance for tedium to dictate the price of your stock one penny at a time. That would be a terrible thing to do to the economy of your market, as we see in Guild Wars 2.

 

You also have outbid amounts predetermined in certain "live" auctions. I'm sure there are other examples as well. But while there is a precedent in the Real World, the TP is set up to be able to go up or down by 1 copper. And as long as that is available there are people who will do that. Even if a bunch of players agreed to do things a certain way, there will always be players outside of your agreement who will mess it up for you.

 

So until Anet changes the way the TP works, I'm afraid you're stuck with it.

[Fermi.2409]

I don't consider this a problem at all. Nothing forces you to increment the price by 1c. If you truly want the item more then the lithe feellow, you'll bump up the price by an appreciable amount. If not, the price is about right and trying to force larger price jumps between buy offers is going to be a bad thing to do

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

It appears that you are using the trading post as an auction house. Your argument of a 5% minimum upbid is based on that and it’s also based on the underlying belief that this is the reason why the Devs have set up the trading post. But what if it’s not? It’s not called the Auction House for a reason. Using it as an auction house may be allowed but that doesn’t mean it’s supported. If the Devs had wanted a fast moving post, check bid, repost, check bid... auction house it undoubtedly would have minimum bids. So if your way of using the Trading Post isn’t the way the Devs have set it up then they’re not going to change it to be more auction house friendly.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I'm confused. The OP states, "I keep getting into wars over individual pennies with other trading post users." Yet, the title of the thread is: "If you're going to outbid on the trading post, it should be by a minimum of 5%". Perhaps, the OP should take his/her own advice?

[DakotaCoty.5721]

As someone who regularly bids for super expensive items; I'd prefer to keep my 1c up-cut.

[minion.1987]

i go by gold,copper and silver never 5% usually if it's a few silver over a asking price i'll just drop the copper down to 0. if needed i'll change the silver or gold. try to beat me is to try and cause a crash.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> I keep getting into wars over individual pennies with other trading post users. It's not fun, but it's necessary if you expect to execute a trade on anything that has low trade volume. I understand letting people outbid each other, but you should have to do it by a minimum of a certain percentage, say between 1% and 5%, because then it indicates that you're genuinely interested in paying more or accepting less, and you're not just trying to screw up other users and trade for effectively the same price.

>

> I've been playing since launch and love your game. Please keep up the good work.

 

with respect... this is a Trading Post... NOT an Auction House. you are NOT bidding on an item. you are placing an order, and others may then choose to meet your order, OR others may choose to list their item on the trading post.

 

you have a choice to pay someone else's list price, or to try and save $$ by placing an order. if you want the item RIGHT NOW!, then buy the pre-listed item for the pre-listed price.

 

just like the real world. convenience costs extra. shopping around for lower costs means it takes longet to acquire the item. paying lower shipping rates usually means longer shipping times. taking the time to shop around means that you don't have the item in your hand until you decide to pay someone else's price. it's that simple.

 

with respect, as far as i can interpret, you want the item right now! but you don't want to pay the convenience fee. make up your mind! if you are so impatient, buy it now! if you're going to squabble over pennies to buy it cheaper, it's going to take longer to get the item!

[Coulter.2315]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > Prices would skyrocket, bad idea. The reason real world auction houses do this is because they make a commission on the sale, the BLTC's profit margin should not be our primary concern.

>

> I don't think you understand my suggestion if you think it would make prices skyrocket.

>

> Also my primary concern is people being able to drop into the interface without knowing much about it, place an order, and receive their item, without having to struggle with outbidding people, or worse, to not be aware of the problem and simply become frustrated at how orders never seem to execute.

 

Then bid higher than 1c, you can implement this policy yourself. You're not being "screwed over" by the other bidder, they want the item too (and for the same price you do). You have the option to bid much higher or buy out or wait, the system is fine and your suggestion would make prices sky rocket if each new bid was forced to bid up by 5%.

 

I understand you perfectly, it is just a bad idea.

[Seera.5916]

Here's the solution:

 

Place buy orders at the maximum you're willing to spend on the item.

 

Place sell orders at the minimum you're willing to sell the item for.

 

Then just wait and see how long it takes for the order to be filled. And since you're already at your cut off point, you won't get into "bidding" wars.

[Rennie.6750]

It's an issue only if you don't know how the TP works.

 

First, never put more than one item or buy order at a time on a slow market. And when I say never, I **do** mean never. If you've crafted more, it's all on you, you've been greedy and nobody will quietly let you capture the market for 1+ week.

 

Then, sometimes it's better to dramatically undercut by 10-20% yourself. If you follow the 1 at a time rule, they will let you sell yours. If not, buyers will likely take that opportunity anyway.

 

If you're having issues selling your stuff on slow markets then you have most likely not followed one of these rules. Same but mirrored rules apply for buying orders. Now you know them. Enjoy your TP and crafting endeavours!

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

The only way you can be outbid is if your initial offer is low in the first place. The only way you can be undercut is if you were asking for a substantial premium. Don't want that to happen? Offer substantially more in your buy offers and ask for a lot less in your sell offers and you'll avoid most of the competition.

 

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> I keep getting into wars over individual pennies with other trading post users. It's not fun, but it's necessary if you expect to execute a trade on anything that has low trade volume. I understand letting people outbid each other, but you should have to do it by a minimum of a certain percentage, say between 1% and 5%, because then it indicates that you're genuinely interested in paying more or accepting less, and you're not just trying to screw up other users and trade for effectively the same price.

 

How does 1% or 5% indicate that you're genuinely interested in paying more or accepting less? Say the buy offers are at 7s and the sell offers are 30s (as is true for a huge number of L60-67 rares) — wouldn't 18s be a better indicator of a "genuine interest"?

 

Besides which, I'm never interested in paying more if I can pay less; it's not about "trying to screw up" anyone else. Why should your offer of 7.07 be protected if you weren't willing to post it for 7.77 (10% more) in the first place?

 

 

 

[IndigoSundown.5419]

I am not in favor of a developer implemented restriction on how much players are allowed to raise a bid -- or allowed to lower an ask price for that matter. Why? While there are probably a lot of players who don't care about maximizing their gains and minimizing their costs, there are certainly a lot who do. Essentially, the OP wants ANet

to restrict the option to do so for his convenience. No thanks.

[DakotaCoty.5721]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> The only way you can be outbid is if your initial offer is low in the first place. The only way you can be undercut is if you were asking for a substantial premium. Don't want that to happen? Offer substantially more in your buy offers and ask for a lot less in your sell offers and you'll avoid most of the competition.

>

> > @Mercury.9784 said:

> > I keep getting into wars over individual pennies with other trading post users. It's not fun, but it's necessary if you expect to execute a trade on anything that has low trade volume. I understand letting people outbid each other, but you should have to do it by a minimum of a certain percentage, say between 1% and 5%, because then it indicates that you're genuinely interested in paying more or accepting less, and you're not just trying to screw up other users and trade for effectively the same price.

>

> How does 1% or 5% indicate that you're genuinely interested in paying more or accepting less? Say the buy offers are at 7s and the sell offers are 30s (as is true for a huge number of L60-67 rares) — wouldn't 18s be a better indicator of a "genuine interest"?

>

> Besides which, I'm never interested in paying more if I can pay less; it's not about "trying to screw up" anyone else. Why should your offer of 7.07 be protected if you weren't willing to post it for 7.77 (10% more) in the first place?

>

>

>

 

Going along with this logic, also, surely if you're willing to cancel a bid and replace it to really get that item, that shows truer dedication than someone who would just replace the bid and forget about it after a while?