Elder dragons are not technically dragons

[Daniel Handler.4816]

1. Of the Elder Dragons we've seen, each has resembled their corruption.

2. When Mordremoth's body dies it is remade from plants. This includes the non-plant-like draconic portion we see each time it dies.

3. Killing Mordremoth's mind realises the power, not the body. This could be true for all ED. Presumably destroying Zhaitan's body destroyed his mind.

4. The retcon of Primordius' appearance for gw2

5. The blood and teeth may look draconic but end up having corrupted effects.

6. The thaumanova reactor fallout does not corrupt. The brand does.

 

!> why would Kralkatorrik make his body into a weakness.

 

The Elder Dragons are constructs, draconic figures entirely composed of corruption. They are no longer dragons any more than sylvari are humans. Whether they are the original corruption like Glint, or clones like Mordremoth is unknown. >! And based on Vlast this applies to Aurene as well. She is a cleansed branded dragonoid, not a crystal dragon. Dragons don't shatter upon death.

 

I believe ~~corruption is a transformative virus that needs a hive mind to spread naturally, and magic to proliferate. The Elder Dragons were excellent vectors. Their brains could host the hive mind, and their bodies could consume magic. So they were infected. Any mind they had was subverted by the virus.~~

 

tldr; a corrupted body is no longer biologically the same species. the source of the change is disputed.

 

edit1: added tldr

edit 2: added strikethough and moved paragraphs to emphasize what was conjecture.

edit 3: clarified aurene.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

But isn't Dragon a super class?

-yes and no. In the broadest sense yes. Just like bamboo is and is not a tree. When narrowing the definition we get to the taxonomy shared with drakes and wyvern. A copied creature doesn't share that anatomy.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> Corruption is a transformative virus that needs a hive mind to spread naturally, and magic to proliferate. The Elder Dragons were excellent vectors. Their brains could host the hive mind, and their bodies could consume magic. So they were infected.

 

That's putting a fairly biological scientific approach to something that is anything but. There's no indication that the Elder Dragons are not the source of their corruption, nor that their minds had changed due to external influences at any point in time.

 

An interesting notion, but I feel that as far in as we are now, we'd have gotten at least a subtle hint to the idea if it were so.

[Rognik.2579]

Um, Mordremoth isn't a clone. We aren't really killing him over and over again any more than replaying a chapter means we are literally repeating the past. Dragon's Stand is just a map that constantly repeats, and ends with Mordremoth's death. To my knowledge, at no point in the story does it actually say that Mordremoth has ever died before, either his body or his mind. I'd say more, but I'm not even sure I understand anything you are trying to say in your post.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> Mordremoth: Armies cannot stop me.

> Canach: The dragon is focused on the battle outside. We'll never get a better chance.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hearts_and_Minds#Entering_the_Lair

 

> Laranthir: Well met, Commander. It seems[sic] find ourselves on the dragon's doorstep.

> PC: Is this really it? Have we really found Mordremoth in its lair? (If didn't complete Hearts and Minds)

> Laranthir: Our scouts believe the creature before us is feeding on ley-line energy for its master, but Mordremoth is an entity of mind and dream. That's where you'll have to go to defeat it.

> PC: So even if we can't end things here, we can weaken Mordremoth. Let's do it.

> PC: I don't understand. I thought I'd beaten Mordremoth... (If completed Hearts and Minds)

> Laranthir: Though you killed Mordremoth within its realm of mind, the physical manifestation of its hunger remains in our world, still feeding on this hub of ley-line energy.

> PC: In that case, let's put it out of our misery.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Laranthir_of_the_Wild#Heart_of_Maguuma

 

It seems to be a plot point that we kill Mordremoth's body either two or three times, given the two dialogues above. Not sure about the "clone" bit, but like Mordremoth transfers the consciousness of his Mordrem Guard Commanders into new bodies constantly, he seems to transfer his own mind as he either clones or repairs his own body.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > Corruption is a transformative virus that needs a hive mind to spread naturally, and magic to proliferate. The Elder Dragons were excellent vectors. Their brains could host the hive mind, and their bodies could consume magic. So they were infected.

>

> That's putting a fairly biological scientific approach to something that is anything but. There's no indication that the Elder Dragons are not the source of their corruption, nor that their minds had changed due to external influences at any point in time.

>

> An interesting notion, but I feel that as far in as we are now, we'd have gotten at least a subtle hint to the idea if it were so.

 

Perhaps that's why they couldn't cleanse Kralkatorrik.

 

They still aren't technically dragons any more than fern hounds are canines and Sylvari are human.

[Narcemus.1348]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > Corruption is a transformative virus that needs a hive mind to spread naturally, and magic to proliferate. The Elder Dragons were excellent vectors. Their brains could host the hive mind, and their bodies could consume magic. So they were infected.

> >

> > That's putting a fairly biological scientific approach to something that is anything but. There's no indication that the Elder Dragons are not the source of their corruption, nor that their minds had changed due to external influences at any point in time.

> >

> > An interesting notion, but I feel that as far in as we are now, we'd have gotten at least a subtle hint to the idea if it were so.

>

> Perhaps that's why they couldn't cleanse Kralkatorrik.

>

> They still aren't technically dragons any more than fern hounds are canines and Sylvari are human.

 

I personally find the idea that they tried to cleanse Kralkatorrik weird. I mean the cleansing ritual is used to remove the outside influence from a creature and allow it to make it's own decisions, but as far as we can tell, the Elder Dragons have free will. There is no reason to think that Kralkatorrik needed to be freed from the influence of anything.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > Corruption is a transformative virus that needs a hive mind to spread naturally, and magic to proliferate. The Elder Dragons were excellent vectors. Their brains could host the hive mind, and their bodies could consume magic. So they were infected.

> >

> > That's putting a fairly biological scientific approach to something that is anything but. There's no indication that the Elder Dragons are not the source of their corruption, nor that their minds had changed due to external influences at any point in time.

> >

> > An interesting notion, but I feel that as far in as we are now, we'd have gotten at least a subtle hint to the idea if it were so.

>

> Perhaps that's why they couldn't cleanse Kralkatorrik.

>

> They still aren't technically dragons any more than fern hounds are canines and Sylvari are human.

 

I think a better argument may be that they aren't dragons any more than a branded charr is a flesh and blood charr. But that's like saying Shadow of the Dragon isn't a dragon, Tequatl isnt' a dragon, etc.

 

We do not know the origin of the Elder Dragons, and [we see Kralkatorrik does indeed have flesh in GW1](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Kralkatorrik.jpg). Depending on which direction ArenaNet takes it, they can either say it was a retcon in art style, or when they gain more magic they become more elemental like their minions are.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > Corruption is a transformative virus that needs a hive mind to spread naturally, and magic to proliferate. The Elder Dragons were excellent vectors. Their brains could host the hive mind, and their bodies could consume magic. So they were infected.

> > >

> > > That's putting a fairly biological scientific approach to something that is anything but. There's no indication that the Elder Dragons are not the source of their corruption, nor that their minds had changed due to external influences at any point in time.

> > >

> > > An interesting notion, but I feel that as far in as we are now, we'd have gotten at least a subtle hint to the idea if it were so.

> >

> > Perhaps that's why they couldn't cleanse Kralkatorrik.

> >

> > They still aren't technically dragons any more than fern hounds are canines and Sylvari are human.

>

> I think a better argument may be that they aren't dragons any more than a branded charr is a flesh and blood charr. But that's like saying Shadow of the Dragon isn't a dragon, Tequatl isnt' a dragon, etc.

>

> We do not know the origin of the Elder Dragons, and [we see Kralkatorrik does indeed have flesh in GW1](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Kralkatorrik.jpg). Depending on which direction ArenaNet takes it, they can either say it was a retcon in art style, or when they gain more magic they become more elemental like their minions are.

 

It isn't flesh. That's why I pointed out the regrowth of Mordremoth's body, the various teeth/blood, etc. Corruption is able to replicate anatomy.

 

Tequatl isn't a dragon any more than electric eels are eels. The champion's general appearance does not mean it is related to wyverns and drakes.

 

Also @"Narcemus.1348" bring up a good point. Why did they try to cleanse/purify Kralkatorrik?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

It certainly looks like flesh to me, though that image does a poor job since it seems to show more of a shell than the flesh beneath the "shell" part. Corruption actually isn't able to replicate anatomy - not in that degree. Maybe Mordremoth's since his corruption takes the form of plants (living matter), and maybe Zhaitan who's corruption takes dead creatures, but Kralkatorrik's certainly wouldn't - his corruption creates crystal, replacing anatomy to do so, leaving only the skin.

 

Nothing says dragons are related to wyverns and drakes, btw.

 

As for the Forgotten "cleansing Kralkatorrik" - honestly I'd list that as "poorly thought out reasoning why they had Branded Forgotten" until further notice. Which is to say "it makes no sense given what we know".

 

It is possible the Forgotten thought that Kralkatorrik was influenced, or it could be that they thought their cleansing ritual would "reset" Kralkatorrik's personality. Too little details to know, and it feels clear the only purpose of that line was to explain the existence of branded Forgotten and nothing more so I doubt we will get more. Sadly.

[TriEdge.5149]

they basically a clusterfuck of energy and magic

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> It certainly looks like flesh to me, though that image does a poor job since it seems to show more of a shell than the flesh beneath the "shell" part. Corruption actually isn't able to replicate anatomy - not in that degree. Maybe Mordremoth's since his corruption takes the form of plants (living matter), and maybe Zhaitan who's corruption takes dead creatures, but Kralkatorrik's certainly wouldn't - his corruption creates crystal, replacing anatomy to do so, leaving only the skin.

 

That would make Glint a minion factory, not a mother. But I still contend it is not flesh. Kralkatorrik can make basalt, black spikes/flesh is unsurprising. After all Jormag made a pretty convincing tooth from ice.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Nothing says dragons are related to wyverns and drakes, btw.

 

The gw1 bestiary implied it. But that is irrelevant. Tequatl is not related to saltspray dragons. The Zojja clone is Mordrem not Asura.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> As for the Forgotten "cleansing Kralkatorrik" - honestly I'd list that as "poorly thought out reasoning why they had Branded Forgotten" until further notice. Which is to say "it makes no sense given what we know".

>

> It is possible the Forgotten thought that Kralkatorrik was influenced, or it could be that they thought their cleansing ritual would "reset" Kralkatorrik's personality. Too little details to know, and it feels clear the only purpose of that line was to explain the existence of branded Forgotten and nothing more so I doubt we will get more. Sadly.

 

The ritual of purification Trahearne performs actually purifies by removing corruption. What is the lore name for the forgotten ritual. The players seem to have assigned the name cleansing/purifying, but it could have as easily been called the freeing ritual.

 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > It certainly looks like flesh to me, though that image does a poor job since it seems to show more of a shell than the flesh beneath the "shell" part. Corruption actually isn't able to replicate anatomy - not in that degree. Maybe Mordremoth's since his corruption takes the form of plants (living matter), and maybe Zhaitan who's corruption takes dead creatures, but Kralkatorrik's certainly wouldn't - his corruption creates crystal, replacing anatomy to do so, leaving only the skin.

>

> That would make Glint a minion factory, not a mother. But I still contend it is not flesh. Kralkatorrik can make basalt, black spikes/flesh is unsurprising. After all Jormag made a pretty convincing tooth from ice.

 

I fail to see how that would make Glint a minion factory, though she technically would be given she's a dragon champion. Those facets we see in GW2, and the Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders are basically purified branded. Vlast and Aurene probably are too, given that it's outright stated that Glint retained her crystalline form.

 

And you're making it sound like it's a fact, and not your theorycrafting, that the Fang of the Serpent is ice and not bone and gum coated in ice as it literally looks like.

 

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > Nothing says dragons are related to wyverns and drakes, btw.

>

> The gw1 bestiary implied it. But that is irrelevant. Tequatl is not related to saltspray dragons. The Zojja clone is Mordrem not Asura.

 

The gw1 bestiary is based more off of mechanics in that aspect (as well with ogres). Drakes in GW1 were classified, mechanically, as dragons. But this is pure mechanics, and before the lore of Elder Dragons came about. In GW2, drakes are not classified as dragons - though they are called cousins to wyverns.

 

Tequatl could be related to saltspray dragons, if it is a corrupted corpse of a dragon. With so little details, it's impossible to say.

 

Zojja clone is indeed a mordrem not asura, but that's like saying "destroyer troll is a destroyer not a troll" - mordrem and destroyers are created out of local plants and rocks respectively, they are not (usually) corrupted animals.

 

Your argument for Zojja clone is like taking Michael Angelo's statue of David and saying "This is not a human being!" but you're treating it as if your argument is akin to the myth of King Midas and seeing his daughter post-turned-to-gold and saying "This is not a human being!"

 

Is Midas' daughter, despite now being solid gold, still a human? She was once a human, all the same.

 

Or to use Tyrian terms: Is [Victurus](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Victurus_the_Shattered) considered a charr? He was once a charr, all the same.

 

However, Zojja clone was never once an asura.

 

So even if the Elder Dragons' bodies are *now* elemental, that doesn't mean they always were. In the same light, doesn't mean Tequatl and co.'s bodies never were living dragons.

 

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > As for the Forgotten "cleansing Kralkatorrik" - honestly I'd list that as "poorly thought out reasoning why they had Branded Forgotten" until further notice. Which is to say "it makes no sense given what we know".

> >

> > It is possible the Forgotten thought that Kralkatorrik was influenced, or it could be that they thought their cleansing ritual would "reset" Kralkatorrik's personality. Too little details to know, and it feels clear the only purpose of that line was to explain the existence of branded Forgotten and nothing more so I doubt we will get more. Sadly.

>

> The ritual of purification Trahearne performs actually purifies by removing corruption. What is the lore name for the forgotten ritual. The players seem to have assigned the name cleansing/purifying, but it could have as easily been called the freeing ritual.

 

It has no lore name. We just have [what is from Arah explorable](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_(explorable)#Forgotten). Technically, the words "cleansed" and "purified" were never used (regardless of tense).

 

Trahearne's ritual was completely different from what the Forgotten used, since it technically was just "purified plant corruption" being used atop of "death corruption". What the Forgotten did is, thus far to our knowledge, entirely different.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> As for the Forgotten "cleansing Kralkatorrik" - honestly I'd list that as "poorly thought out reasoning why they had Branded Forgotten" until further notice. Which is to say "it makes no sense given what we know".

 

Not to mention an excuse to put another piece of GW1 lore in the Killed Off For Real basket.

 

Less cynically, it's possible that the Forgotten knew something we don't, or had some different ritual which they felt could work, and were desperate enough to try. After all, it'd be a gamechanger if it succeeded.

 

(Be funny if it turned out that they sensed Snaff's mind inside Kralk and were trying to give Snaff control. Be even funnier if it turned out that they were more successful than they thought, but it's just going to take more time for the effect to be fully realised.)

[Narcemus.1348]

The only thing that comes to mind is the idea that perhaps dragon corruption isn't a natural part of being an elder dragon, and that if an Elder Dragon could be cleansed, perhaps their personality might change as well. Sadly we have no information proving that the Elder Dragons may have been benevolent or at least neutral at a time before something changed them.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > It certainly looks like flesh to me, though that image does a poor job since it seems to show more of a shell than the flesh beneath the "shell" part. **Corruption actually isn't able to replicate anatomy - not in that degree.** Maybe Mordremoth's since his corruption takes the form of plants (living matter), and maybe Zhaitan who's corruption takes dead creatures, but Kralkatorrik's certainly wouldn't - his corruption creates crystal, replacing anatomy to do so, leaving only the skin.

> >

> > That would make Glint a minion factory, not a mother. But I still contend it is not flesh. Kralkatorrik can make basalt, black spikes/flesh is unsurprising. After all Jormag made a pretty convincing tooth from ice.

>

> I fail to see how that would make Glint a minion factory, though she technically would be given she's a dragon champion. Those facets we see in GW2, and the Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders are basically purified branded. Vlast and Aurene probably are too, given that it's outright stated that Glint retained her crystalline form.

>

> **And you're making it sound like it's a fact, and not your theorycrafting,** that the Fang of the Serpent is ice and not bone and gum coated in ice as it literally looks like.

 

1. If corruption lacks finesse her reproductive system would have been neutered by the change. Thus her scions are minions, not children.

2. An icy veneer would not have stopped spellcasters from breaking it from the inside. Moreover Jormag has liquid corrupted blood. For what reason would there be corruption on the outside, and the inside, but not in between?

 

And you are making it sound like the degree of replication is a fact. We are both making abductive claims, not objective assertions. My point would be that yours is more complicated. How can corruption copy physiology with precision but not anatomy? There has to be a spectrum of detail, from roughly to extremely analogous structures.

 

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > Nothing says dragons are related to wyverns and drakes, btw.

> >

> > The gw1 bestiary implied it. But that is irrelevant. Tequatl is not related to saltspray dragons. The Zojja clone is Mordrem not Asura.

>

> ...[snip]

> Or to use Tyrian terms: Is [Victurus](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Victurus_the_Shattered) considered a charr? He was once a charr, all the same.

>

> However, Zojja clone was never once an asura.

>

> So even if the Elder Dragons' bodies are *now* elemental, that doesn't mean they always were. In the same light, doesn't mean Tequatl and co.'s bodies never were living dragons.

 

Victurus is not a Char. And I did not imply the Elder Dragons were always elemental. My original conjecture was after all that they were infected for their abilities.

 

We know nothing about vanilla ED, Glint & co. But you can't reverse engineer an archetype from a metaphor. For example

* Mordrem Thrashers have gas bladders

* They are floating plants.

* Gas bladders help irl jellyfish/fish control their buoyancy.

* Mordem Thrashers use the gas bladders to float.

 

I don't know how the gas bladder would work in the air in a plant. I don't know if they use the jellyfish or the fish model or something else entirely. I don't know if other flying plants, like the Jacaranda, also use these organs.

 

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > As for the Forgotten "cleansing Kralkatorrik" - honestly I'd list that as "poorly thought out reasoning why they had Branded Forgotten" until further notice. Which is to say "it makes no sense given what we know".

> > >

> > > It is possible the Forgotten thought that Kralkatorrik was influenced, or it could be that they thought their cleansing ritual would "reset" Kralkatorrik's personality. Too little details to know, and it feels clear the only purpose of that line was to explain the existence of branded Forgotten and nothing more so I doubt we will get more. Sadly.

> >

> > The ritual of purification Trahearne performs actually purifies by removing corruption. What is the lore name for the forgotten ritual. The players seem to have assigned the name cleansing/purifying, but it could have as easily been called the freeing ritual.

>

> It has no lore name. We just have [what is from Arah explorable](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ruined_City_of_Arah_(explorable)#Forgotten). Technically, the words "cleansed" and "purified" were never used (regardless of tense).

>

> Trahearne's ritual was completely different from what the Forgotten used, since it technically was just "purified plant corruption" being used atop of "death corruption". What the Forgotten did is, thus far to our knowledge, entirely different.

 

So there are no examples of corruption being reversed.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> 1. If corruption lacks finesse her reproductive system would have been neutered by the change. Thus her scions are minions, not children.

> 2. An icy veneer would not have stopped spellcasters from breaking it from the inside. Moreover Jormag has liquid corrupted blood. For what reason would there be corruption on the outside, and the inside, but not in between?

>

> And you are making it sound like the degree of replication is a fact. We are both making abductive claims, not objective assertions. My point would be that yours is more complicated. How can corruption copy physiology with precision but not anatomy? There has to be a spectrum of detail, from roughly to extremely analogous structures.

 

1. Both yes and no. We've already got confirmation that pregnant creatures can still give birth, but dragon minions are infertile. If Glint was pregnant when corrupted, or the eggs got corrupted themselves, and those eggs went into stasis for a thousand years (we know the egg that became Aurene was in stasis for a while, until reaching Tarir), then that would deny your point.

2. I... don't quite get what you're trying to get at here. "If it isn't ice, people would be able to break it" ? There's no reason to believe such a thing. If anything, ice would make it more brittle than bone. As to his "corrupted blood" - the blood itself froze over, but is not necessarily corrupted. If the blood was always frozen, then it wouldn't be blood nor would bloodletting be possible to get that blood out of Jormag's body (same goes to Kralkatorrik's crystallized blood).

 

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to with "degree of replication" - you mean the stated fact that mordrem are clones? Or the stated fact that destroyers are mockeries of other beings? If that's what you're saying I'm presenting as fact, that is because it **is** fact, the former outright stated in-game thousands of times, the latter stated in multiple interviews.

 

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> Victurus is not a Char. And I did not imply the Elder Dragons were always elemental. My original conjecture was after all that they were infected for their abilities.

 

Given that it is 100% certain that Victurs is a corrupted charr, then your argument is that Elder Dragons are corrupted dragons.

 

Your statement was this comparison:

 

> They still aren't technically dragons any more than fern hounds are canines and Sylvari are human.

 

Which is a false equivalence unless you were making the argument that they were never dragons from the beginning.

 

Which apparently is not your argument anymore.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > 1. If corruption lacks finesse her reproductive system would have been neutered by the change. Thus her scions are minions, not children.

> > 2. An icy veneer would not have stopped spellcasters from breaking it from the inside. Moreover Jormag has liquid corrupted blood. For what reason would there be corruption on the outside, and the inside, but not in between?

> >

> > And you are making it sound like the degree of replication is a fact. We are both making abductive claims, not objective assertions. My point would be that yours is more complicated. How can corruption copy physiology with precision but not anatomy? There has to be a spectrum of detail, from roughly to extremely analogous structures.

>

> 1. Both yes and no. We've already got confirmation that pregnant creatures can still give birth, but dragon minions are infertile. If Glint was pregnant when corrupted, or the eggs got corrupted themselves, and those eggs went into stasis for a thousand years (we know the egg that became Aurene was in stasis for a while, until reaching Tarir), then that would deny your point.

> 2. I... don't quite get what you're trying to get at here. "If it isn't ice, people would be able to break it" ? There's no reason to believe such a thing. If anything, ice would make it more brittle than bone. As to his "corrupted blood" - the blood itself froze over, but is not necessarily corrupted. If the blood was always frozen, then it wouldn't be blood nor would bloodletting be possible to get that blood out of Jormag's body (same goes to Kralkatorrik's crystallized blood).

>

> I'm not quite sure what you're referring to with "degree of replication" - you mean the stated fact that mordrem are clones? Or the stated fact that destroyers are mockeries of other beings? If that's what you're saying I'm presenting as fact, that is because it **is** fact, the former outright stated in-game thousands of times, the latter stated in multiple interviews.

 

1. I wouldn't consider giving birth a simple thing to replicate.

2. But this isn't normal ice. The norn have carved teeth and bone, but they couldn't puncture the tooth. As for breaking it, regular bone falls under the purvey of necromancy. As for the other point. You are correct, it is analogous to blood. But assuming ice and crystal cannot flow is just bad science.

3. "It certainly looks like flesh to me, though that image does a poor job since it seems to show more of a shell than the flesh beneath the "shell" part. Corruption actually isn't able to replicate anatomy - not in that degree"

* Perhaps I am confusing you. But you keep assuming I am referring to literal replication rather than analogous. I am not. Otherwise dragons would still be dragons post corruption. Moreover Mordrem clones are clearly not identical. The point was corruption is good at creating copies. What you thought was skin from afar could just have easily been the basalt skin that covers the branded.

 

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > Victurus is not a Char. And I did not imply the Elder Dragons were always elemental. My original conjecture was after all that they were infected for their abilities.

>

> Given that it is 100% certain that Victurs is a corrupted charr, then your argument is that Elder Dragons are corrupted dragons.

>

> Your statement was this comparison:

>

> > They still aren't technically dragons any more than fern hounds are canines and Sylvari are human.

>

> Which is a false equivalence unless you were making the argument that they were never dragons from the beginning.

>

> Which apparently is not your argument anymore.

 

Corrupted charr, crystalline dragon. These are shorthand for appearances, not blueprints for their exact anatomy. Whether its mockery or modeling, the result is not an exact replica and a loss of the previous state. The Pale Tree was planted in a human graveyard, whether she took inspiration from the deceased or attempted to clone corpses is irrelevant. The product was Sylvari, not human.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> 1. Both yes and no. We've already got confirmation that pregnant creatures can still give birth, but dragon minions are infertile.

 

I note, again, that the evidence for that is the possibly unreliable narrator of the Order mentors, at a time when there was a lot that Tyrians, even of the orders, did not understand about the Elder Dragons. There's a lot of salt that should be taken with that claim.

[Mickey Frogeater.1470]

If the blood was made of ice it would be slush. As for the viability of liquid crystal see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_crystal

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Mickey Frogeater.1470" said:

> If the blood was made of ice it would be slush. As for the viability of liquid crystal see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_crystal

 

 

My point was that ice and crystal can flow, not that it is the only possibility.

 

It's kinda complicated because slush is also a liquid crystal. But then again both Kralkatorrik and Primordius can make basalt, an extrusive igneous rock (lava that cools too quickly to crystallize).

 

On the other hand neither ice, crystal, nor fire are confirmed spheres. It could be some other material that is indistinguishable but has different properties.

 

However I don't know much about magical physics. Like how do icebrood move? It could be solid crystal/ice that stretched like putty.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> On the other hand neither ice, crystal, nor fire are confirmed spheres. It could be some other material that is indistinguishable but has different properties.

 

Ice, crystal, and fire are those three Elder Dragons' only confirmed spheres...

 

The first sphere is also their title. Elder Death Dragon, Elder Fire Dragon, Elder Crystal Dragon, Elder Jungle/Plant Dragon, etc. It's also the form their corruption takes shape of - rotten death, fire and lava, crystal, etc.

 

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > On the other hand neither ice, crystal, nor fire are confirmed spheres. It could be some other material that is indistinguishable but has different properties.

>

> Ice, crystal, and fire are those three Elder Dragons' only confirmed spheres...

>

> The first sphere is also their title. Elder Death Dragon, Elder Fire Dragon, Elder Crystal Dragon, Elder Jungle/Plant Dragon, etc. It's also the form their corruption takes shape of - rotten death, fire and lava, crystal, etc.

>

 

Then explain the inconsistencies.

* Ice is normally a crystal. It is possible Jormag can make amorphous ice, but which dragon controls crystalline water?

* Primordius and Kralkatorrik can make basalt. How does a crystal dragon get an amorphous igneous rock?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Is there a dragon that controls water at all? As far as we know, no there isn't. Does there need to be one? No, there doesn't. That's hardly an inconsistency.

 

Kralkatorrik corrupts with his golden, fiery breath. The entire Dragonbrand has signs of corruption being a result of superheating (those giant bubbles here and there? [Looks familiar, no?](

)) that results in crystalline. It makes sense, then, that the corruption also has an effect of making volcanic rock and glass. It's pretty heavily hinted that Kralkatorrik's second domain is sky, divided into wind, lightning, and sun. Sun = heat. And bringing it up close = overheating.

 

Nothing says there cannot be overlap between what the Elder Dragons do. After all, it's not like Zhaitan is the only dragon to corrupt corpses (see Edge of Destiny, chapter 1).

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Is there a dragon that controls water at all? As far as we know, no there isn't. Does there need to be one? No, there doesn't. That's hardly an inconsistency.

>

> Kralkatorrik corrupts with his golden, fiery breath. The entire Dragonbrand has signs of corruption being a result of superheating (those giant bubbles here and there? [Looks familiar, no?](

)) that results in crystalline. It makes sense, then, that the corruption also has an effect of making volcanic rock and glass. It's pretty heavily hinted that Kralkatorrik's second domain is sky, divided into wind, lightning, and sun. Sun = heat. And bringing it up close = overheating.

>

> Nothing says there cannot be overlap between what the Elder Dragons do. After all, it's not like Zhaitan is the only dragon to corrupt corpses (see Edge of Destiny, chapter 1).

 

I should have been more specific:

Which dragon controls crystalline ice?

 

I agree with your observations. It does appear that Kralkatorrik superheats matter, seeds it with crystals, then let's it cool. For some reason the brand is strong enough to form but everything else is reduced to an amorphous state. But this doesn't answer the question.

 

Corrupting corpses is an ability, not a form of corruption. I assume crystal is a misnomer for mineral. It makes no sense for one sphere to encompass so much more than the others.