Thief Backstab need an Upgrade

[Crinn.7864]

> @Turk.5460 said:

> > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > Alternatively you could just not backstab someone that is using a block or evade.

> >

> > Backstab's setup is no longer or shorter than comparable damage skills on other classes. You do not need special accommodations.

>

> It's setup is absolutely longer. Most comparable damage abilities require one skill, one button press. Backstab requires at the very least 2. Most often it requires 3. And a majority of the comparable damage abilities can be done from range, and hit multiple targets.

>

> ??????

 

If difficulty is measured by how many buttons you need to press, then Scourge is the most difficult class to burst with because of all the buttons Scourge has to press to build life force in order to use F skills.

 

Do you really want to make that argument?

 

[Cobrakon.3108]

> @Cynz.9437 said:

> I honestly still don't understand their logic behind CD on stealth attacks (outside of bias) while every other class is overloaded with skills (a lot of them aoe) dealing way more damage than bs ever could.

> It is also really sad to see that this CD still locks you out of AA. Thieves are only class that are not allowed to use AA due to terrible design choices.

 

I think they might of thought that the deadeye elite+ backstab might of had too much synergy which is why we got the nerf way in advance. I guess if you back stabbed and wiffed the elite would let u reset quickly for another backstab. That alone still wouldnt seem to be to op considering how weak bs was already, but i think it has to do with their worry about the synergy, with deadeye. The last thing they wan tis a bursty stealth class. Citation: balance patches XD.

[Vertep.2498]

> @Cobrakon.3108 said:

> > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > I honestly still don't understand their logic behind CD on stealth attacks (outside of bias) while every other class is overloaded with skills (a lot of them aoe) dealing way more damage than bs ever could.

> > It is also really sad to see that this CD still locks you out of AA. Thieves are only class that are not allowed to use AA due to terrible design choices.

>

> I think they might of thought that the deadeye elite+ backstab might of had too much synergy which is why we got the nerf way in advance. I guess if you back stabbed and wiffed the elite would let u reset quickly for another backstab. That alone still wouldnt seem to be to op considering how weak bs was already, but i think it has to do with their worry about the synergy, with deadeye. The last thing they wan tis a bursty stealth class. Citation: balance patches XD.

 

but who the hell is using DE elite? even if will it itself have colldown 5 seconds before using 2nd steealth from this

[Turk.5460]

> @Crinn.7864 said:

> > @Turk.5460 said:

> > > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > Alternatively you could just not backstab someone that is using a block or evade.

> > >

> > > Backstab's setup is no longer or shorter than comparable damage skills on other classes. You do not need special accommodations.

> >

> > It's setup is absolutely longer. Most comparable damage abilities require one skill, one button press. Backstab requires at the very least 2. Most often it requires 3. And a majority of the comparable damage abilities can be done from range, and hit multiple targets.

> >

> > ??????

>

> If difficulty is measured by how many buttons you need to press, then Scourge is the most difficult class to burst with because of all the buttons Scourge has to press to build life force in order to use F skills.

>

> Do you really want to make that argument?

>

 

Sure, go ahead. You will only be making a fool of yourself if you do, considering you were the one who specified "comparable damage skills." Please don't stoop to arguing semantics, it only derails threads.

[Umair.7693]

> @Cobrakon.3108 said:

> > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > I honestly still don't understand their logic behind CD on stealth attacks (outside of bias) while every other class is overloaded with skills (a lot of them aoe) dealing way more damage than bs ever could.

> > It is also really sad to see that this CD still locks you out of AA. Thieves are only class that are not allowed to use AA due to terrible design choices.

>

> I think they might of thought that the deadeye elite+ backstab might of had too much synergy which is why we got the nerf way in advance. I guess if you back stabbed and wiffed the elite would let u reset quickly for another backstab. That alone still wouldnt seem to be to op considering how weak bs was already, but i think it has to do with their worry about the synergy, with deadeye. The last thing they wan tis a bursty stealth class. Citation: balance patches XD.

 

I think, no one would ever used DE with backstab.

[Vertep.2498]

> @Umair.7693 said:

> > @Cobrakon.3108 said:

> > > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > I honestly still don't understand their logic behind CD on stealth attacks (outside of bias) while every other class is overloaded with skills (a lot of them aoe) dealing way more damage than bs ever could.

> > > It is also really sad to see that this CD still locks you out of AA. Thieves are only class that are not allowed to use AA due to terrible design choices.

> >

> > I think they might of thought that the deadeye elite+ backstab might of had too much synergy which is why we got the nerf way in advance. I guess if you back stabbed and wiffed the elite would let u reset quickly for another backstab. That alone still wouldnt seem to be to op considering how weak bs was already, but i think it has to do with their worry about the synergy, with deadeye. The last thing they wan tis a bursty stealth class. Citation: balance patches XD.

>

> I think, no one would ever used DE with backstab.

 

in pvp yes, you are right, I thought about that but then I just remembered how hard in 2 secs in stealth is to not LoS for backstab on DE while on DD just dodge with speed and done, much easier to use backstab on **mobile DD than on non-mobile DE**

[babazhook.6805]

> @Vertep.2498 said:

> > @Umair.7693 said:

> > > @Cobrakon.3108 said:

> > > > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > > I honestly still don't understand their logic behind CD on stealth attacks (outside of bias) while every other class is overloaded with skills (a lot of them aoe) dealing way more damage than bs ever could.

> > > > It is also really sad to see that this CD still locks you out of AA. Thieves are only class that are not allowed to use AA due to terrible design choices.

> > >

> > > I think they might of thought that the deadeye elite+ backstab might of had too much synergy which is why we got the nerf way in advance. I guess if you back stabbed and wiffed the elite would let u reset quickly for another backstab. That alone still wouldnt seem to be to op considering how weak bs was already, but i think it has to do with their worry about the synergy, with deadeye. The last thing they wan tis a bursty stealth class. Citation: balance patches XD.

> >

> > I think, no one would ever used DE with backstab.

>

> in pvp yes, you are right, I thought about that but then I just remembered how hard in 2 secs in stealth is to not LoS for backstab on DE while on DD just dodge with speed and done, much easier to use backstab on **mobile DD than on non-mobile DE**

 

You can use DE for backstab with a D/P spec , but it not very workable with the d/d spec. Rather then use steal to port you use Shadowshot then the Meld to stealth for an instant backstab. I am not sure why you would need to dodge to set up a backstab once in close. If specced hidden killer you would have 100 percent crit for the backstab and 2 seconds of AA. this while the target still blinded. If your target is the mark you got some nice extra damage plus the potential of damage adds for the backstab from things like quickness, revealed maliceand the like . (other choices of course are if in DA over CS take revealed training stacked on top revealed malice. If you have might stacked which is easy in DE build it will hit hard) If you want a real spike in the backstab, while hard to pull off use Binding shadow, shadowshot, Meld stealth backstab.

(getting you poison, immob or knockdown and 15 vuln stacks and the blind)

 

In essence all you really do is rather then stealth at distance and move in you move in and then stealth. Needless to say if no BV there no unblockable on that Backstab. That said I have found with d/p malice buildup can be slower then other sets.

 

I tried using the same method with d/d and Infiltrators signet in a DE build but it clunky and not too reliable at gap closing. It also harder to build malice.

[Sobx.1758]

> @Vertep.2498 said:

> > @Umair.7693 said:

> > > @Cobrakon.3108 said:

> > > > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > > I honestly still don't understand their logic behind CD on stealth attacks (outside of bias) while every other class is overloaded with skills (a lot of them aoe) dealing way more damage than bs ever could.

> > > > It is also really sad to see that this CD still locks you out of AA. Thieves are only class that are not allowed to use AA due to terrible design choices.

> > >

> > > I think they might of thought that the deadeye elite+ backstab might of had too much synergy which is why we got the nerf way in advance. I guess if you back stabbed and wiffed the elite would let u reset quickly for another backstab. That alone still wouldnt seem to be to op considering how weak bs was already, but i think it has to do with their worry about the synergy, with deadeye. The last thing they wan tis a bursty stealth class. Citation: balance patches XD.

> >

> > I think, no one would ever used DE with backstab.

>

> in pvp yes, you are right, I thought about that but then I just remembered how hard in 2 secs in stealth is to not LoS for backstab on DE while on DD just dodge with speed and done, much easier to use backstab on **mobile DD than on non-mobile DE**

 

Sooo you just repeated what he said? So what exactly was the point of that answer? :D

[Crinn.7864]

> @Turk.5460 said:

> > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > @Turk.5460 said:

> > > > @Crinn.7864 said:

> > > > Alternatively you could just not backstab someone that is using a block or evade.

> > > >

> > > > Backstab's setup is no longer or shorter than comparable damage skills on other classes. You do not need special accommodations.

> > >

> > > It's setup is absolutely longer. Most comparable damage abilities require one skill, one button press. Backstab requires at the very least 2. Most often it requires 3. And a majority of the comparable damage abilities can be done from range, and hit multiple targets.

> > >

> > > ??????

> >

> > If difficulty is measured by how many buttons you need to press, then Scourge is the most difficult class to burst with because of all the buttons Scourge has to press to build life force in order to use F skills.

> >

> > Do you really want to make that argument?

> >

>

> Sure, go ahead. You will only be making a fool of yourself if you do, considering you were the one who specified "comparable damage skills." Please don't stoop to arguing semantics, it only derails threads.

 

I am not arguing semantics, I'm pointing out how ridiculous using number of buttons pressed is as a metric to gauge setup.

 

Yeah sure you have to press two buttons to backstab someone, but how is that any harder than trying to land a Reaper's 1.25 second cast Gravedigger or a DH's ToF push-pull combo, or a Mesmer's shatter spike? It's not. This thread acts like backstab is some insanely hard skill to land, when in reality it's no harder to land than anything else is.

 

Backstab was given a CD because before the cd thieves would just spam backstab until it hit. This was just plain bad for pvp because it meant that trying to anticipate when a backstab was coming was pointless because a thief could just endlessly spam it until it hit.

 

[Pelto.9364]

Many other weapon 1 skills have 1 sec cooldown even they make less damage than backstab. Backstab hits 12k + bound 5k to my chars. 1 sec ICD is next to nothing.

 

[Vertep.2498]

> @babazhook.6805 said:

> > @Vertep.2498 said:

> > > @Umair.7693 said:

> > > > @Cobrakon.3108 said:

> > > > > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > > > I honestly still don't understand their logic behind CD on stealth attacks (outside of bias) while every other class is overloaded with skills (a lot of them aoe) dealing way more damage than bs ever could.

> > > > > It is also really sad to see that this CD still locks you out of AA. Thieves are only class that are not allowed to use AA due to terrible design choices.

> > > >

> > > > I think they might of thought that the deadeye elite+ backstab might of had too much synergy which is why we got the nerf way in advance. I guess if you back stabbed and wiffed the elite would let u reset quickly for another backstab. That alone still wouldnt seem to be to op considering how weak bs was already, but i think it has to do with their worry about the synergy, with deadeye. The last thing they wan tis a bursty stealth class. Citation: balance patches XD.

> > >

> > > I think, no one would ever used DE with backstab.

> >

> > in pvp yes, you are right, I thought about that but then I just remembered how hard in 2 secs in stealth is to not LoS for backstab on DE while on DD just dodge with speed and done, much easier to use backstab on **mobile DD than on non-mobile DE**

>

> You can use DE for backstab with a D/P spec , but it not very workable with the d/d spec. Rather then use steal to port you use Shadowshot then the Meld to stealth for an instant backstab. I am not sure why you would need to dodge to set up a backstab once in close. If specced hidden killer you would have 100 percent crit for the backstab and 2 seconds of AA. this while the target still blinded. If your target is the mark you got some nice extra damage plus the potential of damage adds for the backstab from things like quickness, revealed maliceand the like . (other choices of course are if in DA over CS take revealed training stacked on top revealed malice. If you have might stacked which is easy in DE build it will hit hard) If you want a real spike in the backstab, while hard to pull off use Binding shadow, shadowshot, Meld stealth backstab.

> (getting you poison, immob or knockdown and 15 vuln stacks and the blind)

>

> In essence all you really do is rather then stealth at distance and move in you move in and then stealth. Needless to say if no BV there no unblockable on that Backstab. That said I have found with d/p malice buildup can be slower then other sets.

>

> I tried using the same method with d/d and Infiltrators signet in a DE build but it clunky and not too reliable at gap closing. It also harder to build malice.

 

I would need dodge just because in these days its hard to get someone standing in place and mostly all are moving with speedbuff so this slow walking tou your target in stealth for DE will be to slow while on DD just dodge and you wont LoS in that short range without need to use gap close skill

[babazhook.6805]

> @Vertep.2498 said:

> > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > @Vertep.2498 said:

> > > > @Umair.7693 said:

> > > > > @Cobrakon.3108 said:

> > > > > > @Cynz.9437 said:

> > > > > > I honestly still don't understand their logic behind CD on stealth attacks (outside of bias) while every other class is overloaded with skills (a lot of them aoe) dealing way more damage than bs ever could.

> > > > > > It is also really sad to see that this CD still locks you out of AA. Thieves are only class that are not allowed to use AA due to terrible design choices.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think they might of thought that the deadeye elite+ backstab might of had too much synergy which is why we got the nerf way in advance. I guess if you back stabbed and wiffed the elite would let u reset quickly for another backstab. That alone still wouldnt seem to be to op considering how weak bs was already, but i think it has to do with their worry about the synergy, with deadeye. The last thing they wan tis a bursty stealth class. Citation: balance patches XD.

> > > >

> > > > I think, no one would ever used DE with backstab.

> > >

> > > in pvp yes, you are right, I thought about that but then I just remembered how hard in 2 secs in stealth is to not LoS for backstab on DE while on DD just dodge with speed and done, much easier to use backstab on **mobile DD than on non-mobile DE**

> >

> > You can use DE for backstab with a D/P spec , but it not very workable with the d/d spec. Rather then use steal to port you use Shadowshot then the Meld to stealth for an instant backstab. I am not sure why you would need to dodge to set up a backstab once in close. If specced hidden killer you would have 100 percent crit for the backstab and 2 seconds of AA. this while the target still blinded. If your target is the mark you got some nice extra damage plus the potential of damage adds for the backstab from things like quickness, revealed maliceand the like . (other choices of course are if in DA over CS take revealed training stacked on top revealed malice. If you have might stacked which is easy in DE build it will hit hard) If you want a real spike in the backstab, while hard to pull off use Binding shadow, shadowshot, Meld stealth backstab.

> > (getting you poison, immob or knockdown and 15 vuln stacks and the blind)

> >

> > In essence all you really do is rather then stealth at distance and move in you move in and then stealth. Needless to say if no BV there no unblockable on that Backstab. That said I have found with d/p malice buildup can be slower then other sets.

> >

> > I tried using the same method with d/d and Infiltrators signet in a DE build but it clunky and not too reliable at gap closing. It also harder to build malice.

>

> I would need dodge just because in these days its hard to get someone standing in place and mostly all are moving with speedbuff so this slow walking tou your target in stealth for DE will be to slow while on DD just dodge and you wont LoS in that short range without need to use gap close skill

 

Well in combat mobility does not require dodge. As long as you move faster then the target you are fine. Both hidden thief and swiftness are available to a thief outside the DrD spec. You are niot SLOW walking to the target with swiftness on. You are not slow walking to the target if you have Hidden thief up and running. A dodge like UC can get you there marginally faster but then you waste as much time positioning yourself for the backstab as those dodges are not granular enough to allow for perfect positioning.