Delofasht.4231

> @"Blade of Christ.1298" said:

> > @"Delofasht.4231" said:

> > Getting killed inside of a two second knockdown does not feel good either... condition damage may be annoying, but at least it can be cleansed, no cleansing a burst of 16k that happens in 0.5 seconds or less.

> >

> > Why bring this problem up in the Mesmer forum though?

>

> I sincerely apologize, as I stated initially, ive never even commented on post before. I thought I was in general discussion thread. I guess there isnt a way to change it now is there?

>

> and no it doesnt, regardless of the circumstances being 1 shot does not feel good, but usually with a well timed stun break or some form of block or invulnerable you can block that damage and power based builds typically cant repeated that over and over again endlessly without no break. yes you have cleanse for condi but in my personal experience running FB Bunker no amount of resistance or cleanse can out do these meta condi builds. they literally can sustain the condi pressure with no worry of "oh shoot everything is on CD and I cant deal damage now" like power builds. reapers have CD's, short as they are they still cant continually repeat it in short burst fights, same for Deadeyes, Rangers, and warriors. several times ive fought against both warriors and reapers that I lost because Rampage or death spiral but beat the next time around because those skills were on CD. I have seen in particular (wont mention names) a scourge FB pair that won every single 3-5v2 fight regardless of duration inbetween with no rest because they literally could apply conditions that fast and that often. again with power you at least have a chance with well timed defensive utilities. with condi it just keeps coming no matter how often you cleanse it or become immune to it.

To my knowledge there is no way to move the thread, that aside, I do understand the frustration of being subject to constant high sustained damage.

No offense intended, but it sounds like you may have encountered some strictly superior opponents. Such opponents exist for all of us, everyone has a weakness to a specific style of play. I struggle with a number of burst builds which also seem to auto attack for several thousand with every single auto attack, game is actually fairly balanced if we consider that both power and condi can be overpowered. Builds that are more general seem to actually suffer more in general... some exceptions do apply, but most lack enough damage to be a real threat or are specifically weak to a fairly common build.

> @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > @"Delofasht.4231" said:

> > > @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > > Chrono got fixed. Can we fix Mirage the same way now please?

> >

> > - "Fixed!", BadMed

> >

> > Until such time as someone comes along and manages to break the game with some crazy new build that ends up beating you constantly... Then it will just be the same old crying about Mesmer again. Core issues of Mesmer will always end up making players like you call for nerfs endlessly, we want the profession actually fixed as much as the next player, probably more so... tired of getting nerfed for things that are not even the real issue at all.

>

> Players like me will keep calling for nerfs as long as unskilled players keep hiding behind a broken spec and pretend that it's been nerfed to the ground. Mirage is ridiculously broken even after the CI temp change. Redesign or nerf, I don't care. I just want Mirage to loose some of its capabilities. It does way too much in terms of ability to spike damage, spam conditions, endless CCs, endless escape mechanics to engage at will along with excellent mobility.

A purely subjective post that ignores that every profession currently has a build with way too much of everything you are singling out Mesmer for. Also, Mirage has limited CC capabilities, actually gaining nothing over Core Mesmer in terms of CC at all. You are always crying for nerfs on Mesmer... without at least providing clear numerical example of how they are overperforming. You seem to just have the same issues of many players, dealing with clones through use of environment and AoE.

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Delofasht.4231" said:

> >phantasms are probably fine at this point. Clones remain an issue however

>

> Depends on what you think it's fine, if it's the qqers pov, yes, they're fine.

> All phantasms except berserker are trash.

> Long wind-up and low damage. In case of swordsman it doesn't even connect with npcs.

>

Well I think of phantasms as a damage skill that makes a clone after 2 to 6 seconds (depending on the phantasm). The fact that the damage can be avoided is no different to me than using any other skill with an animation that displays the damage before it happens so it can be avoided. The damage from them might feel low when compared to so many other professions, but they are also producing a resource for the Mesmer.

The difference between phantasm and clone is that clones are our resource, so them being destroyable feels bad for the Mesmer that runs into an enemy or situation in which they are killed near instantly repetitively (certain professions and many PvE and WvW situations). Worse yet, for professions that are incapable of doing that we then have an opposite problem of being overwhelmed by the sheer number of things attacking one at the same time. Weaknesses and Strengths for Mesmer revolving around whether we are allowed to have clones or not feel pretty awful to play and play against in certain circumstances. Clones are ever the problem, and as long as they can be destroyed and apply conditions or are used to apply damage (through shatters by running at the enemy) we will always have issues.

I have posted numerous times on potential ways to solve this, and there are at least 3 or 4 different ways to achieve it, and none of it needs to be done all in one step while generally maintaining some semblance of balance along the way.

Extended hiatus was only a few months? I took upwards towards years off the game, came back and found Mesmer pretty much exactly where I thought it would end up. Funny enough, it is still easy to hop in WvW and wreck the majority of roaming players... two or three players on each profession will end up being an issue, but the majority there are just bad. SPvP is only fun with friends, unranked is stupid, and PvE is just a matter of figuring out the AI pathing and abusing it (or for bosses: do not stand in bad circles).

As others have noted, the fundamental issue is in the design of clones... phantasms are probably fine at this point. Clones remain an issue however, causing untold issues with the balance for the profession to the point that people are constantly suggesting ideas that fail to resolve any of the actual problems with the profession.

Getting killed inside of a two second knockdown does not feel good either... condition damage may be annoying, but at least it can be cleansed, no cleansing a burst of 16k that happens in 0.5 seconds or less.

Why bring this problem up in the Mesmer forum though?

Errr.... this idea seems really bad... why am I seeing so many bad ideas for Mirage trade offs and Mesmer related things in general?

In short, melee is not where a Mesmer wants to be except for a quick burst and get out again.

Sadly, this is the kind of thing we may expect to see... 4 buttons that all do the same thing, with different names, and puts the Mirage in a dangerous spot the whole time. My own suggestions have been long standing in these forums with very little criticism from either Mesmer or non Mesmer players, hopefully the devs take a look at what I have been saying and why.

> @"BadMed.3846" said:

> Chrono got fixed. Can we fix Mirage the same way now please?

- "Fixed!", BadMed

Until such time as someone comes along and manages to break the game with some crazy new build that ends up beating you constantly... Then it will just be the same old crying about Mesmer again. Core issues of Mesmer will always end up making players like you call for nerfs endlessly, we want the profession actually fixed as much as the next player, probably more so... tired of getting nerfed for things that are not even the real issue at all.

Not sure what this is trying to say about Mesmer players in particular...

Please mind that MOST players on a given profession tend to be sad about the nerfs and weaknesses of their given profession, not just Mesmers. Only when a profession doesn't really seem to have a weakness does that one seem totally fine with the state of the game for them, that doesn't really seem to exist in GW2, so everyone cries about something.

Problem with this is all the delays that actually do not do much, but instead it nerfs things that are already balanced... stealth is only an issue on Core Mesmer power burst builds that lack a way out if using stealth to get in; Chrono lost it’s counting as a clone extra damage so it cannot burst from stealth effectively anymore; Mirage doesn’t have a strong stealth burst build (not enough damage/crit multipliers... as in none in their own traitline).

If the goal is to adjust clones, a better solution would be to make the apply no conditions and do no damage, but also have no health bar and not able to be destroyed. Detargets would remove the Mesmer’s health bar for a brief time, and shatters would scale with clones but be applied by the next Mesmer attack; clones run to the Mesmer to empower the next attack... always able to tell a big hit is coming in so evasive maneuvers can be employed. Not a lot changes, but it is easier to track the real Mesmer, and damage is easier to avoid (but also more consistent for PvE where sometimes clones are destroyed on the way to the target).

Phantasms having health bars is fine, and flavorful, but clones are illusions and should not be relied on for deceiving players (the enemy player always hates it, and the professions itself is made weaker than it should be solely because of it).

> @"Hiraga Taichiru.1580" said:

> nah if you want to compare chrono to revenent specs then easy, you play revenent having 50/100 energy as a baseline, but imagine you always start with 0 so it will be 0/100, and use specific skills to generate energy and there are skills which consume energy.

> Its like ranger but pet die in one hit.

> its like elementalist but has like 10-20 sec for swapping elements.

> its like thief but the base line of initiatives are 0/10 or 0/13 and some skills generate initiatives and some uses it.

> its like engineer class and specs but whenever you go in combat the toolbelt skills start CD before using it.

> its like gaurdian but can't use any of F1-F3 without triggering the passive of F1... etc

Pretty much this ^

Let us be honest here, Mesmer is literally the only profession who has a **resource** for using their skills that can be destroyed by the opponent or environment. Some cannot be used until being in combat (Warrior), but NONE can be destroyed. To add more fuel to the fire, that singular resource (clones), is also the profession defense (deception when acting as a clone _and_distortion) and **ALSO** the profession's damage (shatters and condition application) and disruption (diversion and ambushes).

All the eggs in one basket... something was bound to break when things got moved. Turns out, that over time, most of the entire profession has broken because of this... with little surprise here, as nothing was ever replaced in the basket, all the profession tools are still linked to the same resource and fail to function without them. I cannot see how they could fix the problem without reworking clones, in the same kind of mentality that they used when approaching phantasms... except those weren't actually as broken as clones as a resource have always been.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> Mirage doesn't need a tradeoff. Ambushes don't come for free. And the improvement to the dodge is counteracted by its deficits.

The real question is... is there anything Core is strictly better at doing than Mirage? If not, then yeah, they need to refine the two so they are differentiated from each other.

Overall though, I agree that Mirage Cloak and Ambushes are fairly balanced as they stand, but the play style and build simply are not different enough from Core at all in actual play to me.

- Clones do not trigger Sigils

They are an extension of the Mesmer, they should trigger Sigils and many other on hit effects... or they can make clones do no damage and not be able to be destroyed and this will not matter then.

Quality of Life:

Clones being a destroyable resource

Scepter 2 failing to make clones if the block animation is interrupted by any queued skills

Travel time of Scepter bolts being so slow

Sword 3 having a delay (spamming it should allow you to swap near instantly)

Any bolt from the mesmer in flight breaking stealth

Desperate Decoy breaking casts (should be queued to happen directly after finishing the next cast so it doesn't break your skill use or break from what you've skill used)

I will come back with more later I am sure, these are the ones I remembered for now though.

> @"Skotlex.7580" said:

> The issue isn't clone health as much as the WvW zerg setting, where clones don't last a cinch. For small scale they are fine as far as I can tell.

>

> Possible solutions? Perhaps some core Mesmer trait that gives blur to clones when created for ~5 seconds, that would allow some time window to use shatters (though that would give away which ones are clones or not, that would be the tradeoff). Another possible solution is to give clones 99% damage reduction from aoes, meaning they need to be cleaved at melee range, or give them the same treatment as in PvE, where they receive decreased damage from all sources unless directly targeted.

Let me try putting this another way, do you really want to be balanced around a resource that can be destroyed?

Clones simply should not be applying damage in any way, but also not be destroyable. They should be a visible sign to enemies that the Mesmer is lined up for maximum damage, and when they disappear or start running that they should be queuing up their defensive skill or a dodge or the like.

Making them immune to non targeted damage will simply be another tell for players to see a real Mesmer, drop an AoE whoever takes damage is the real Mesmer. This whole concept of acting like a clone is stupid (as in something that is tried repeated and always fails in games, mimicry in PvP games never works out well... every game with these kinds of things show that, the only way they work is when the real one is actually invisible for a long enough duration to have the enemy decide they need to kill the clone/visual representation of the player). Any way we look at this though, so long as clones are destroyable and can apply damage through conditions or by the shatter effect and running in, they will invariably create distress for both the Mesmer player and the opposition to them.

My lesser suggestions are designed to ease into the change a bit at a time, while building toward it. It has an end goal and steps that take the development toward that goal without requiring dramatic change all at one time (as done with Chrono). It retains gameplays but just subtly shifts it bit by bit until the weakness and overwhelming strength associated with it is normalized. Also, it is a change that is not functioning directly on merely numbers and doesn't require nearly as much coding as writing a completely new set of skills.

While an entertaining read... none of it solves any problems with the issues that are at the heart of the Mesmer profession as a whole. Sure it shuffles things, makes them perhaps more clear to someone just approaching the profession, and even alters existing and future builds in ways that may even assist in the game. The problem with any of this is simply that it fails to resolve any of the issues that other players actually have with the profession and it's specializations, nor does it solve any issues that Mesmer players themselves experience.

In short, it doesn't solve any balance issues, and thus is merely change for the sake of change. I would go into depth, but it would take far longer than I care to spend on trying to point out why such a massive set of changes doesn't really do anything positive for the game or the profession as a whole.

Fix clones as a resource first... or prepare the way by moving condition damage, boons, and status effects applied by clones to instead be scaling on the Mesmer/Mirage skills based on number of active clones. Winds of Chaos, for example, would apply an increasing number of stacks of conditions based on the number of clones active. This would apply to Ambushes as well, and increase the number of, or duration of, effects applied by Ambushes (daze, conditions, boons).

With the reliance on clones for effects compressed into the Mesmer/Mirage attacks, the defense against that becomes positioning (not being LoS of the Mesmer for the attack), active skill usage, or dodging/reliance on passive defenses.

Now then, for actual tradeoffs... Mirage is about Ambushes, Deception, and "sustained" fighting, it follows that their strengths should be rooted in that. This means that these should be stronger, and the trade off is that other things that the profession has should be weaker. Reduce damage and durations of effects from Shatters for Mirage and empower the Ambushes and Deception utility skills significantly. Mirage should not be Core++, which is pretty much how it feels overall. The trade off should be in play style, where Mirage wants to keep clones alive and get bonuses from having them up, and using deception to keep them alive (alter Self Deception to instead apply distortion to existing clones and self when using a Deception utility skill). This effectively makes sustained fighting more possible with additional ways to protect clones, but ultimately wouldn't even be necessary if they were not able to be destroyed in the first place.

> @"Aaralyna.3104" said:

> Unpopular opinion but Chronomancer is not broken (it needs some tweaks to some weapons regarding reliably create clones and to put the cs seperate again from skill 4). The core mesmer and mirage need to get the same treatment as chronomancer however, aka the shatters to be the chrono shatters and the need to have a clone up to use shatters.

>

> It had finally a downtone to powercreep (which was needed, and is needed for all classes). The game fights should not be a 1 trick pony but a "beat by using mechanics".

They need to actually fix issues with Mesmer reliance on clones before they even consider reworking anything that is merely a symptom of a resource that can be destroyed by the enemy. Since that is the issue with why Mesmer as a whole have to have Illusionary Persona to work (the argument for IP core in the first place), any other change you could desire is merely a result of not fixing the bigger issue.

Edit: Also, Chrono is not broken... just doesn't work like it used to at all, and feels bad to players who learned to play it one way and cannot anymore. Feels bad to have shatters that are only usable when having clones up, but the production should be higher for Chrono than it is to have that resetting shatters and production actually feel impactful.

I think a fair change could be to double down on Alacrity for the Chrono, make the Improved Alacrity trait baseline to the specialization, merged with Flow of Time. They can then make a trait for using CS without a clone and providing some base vitality and toughness, with a bit extra based on concentration (a fully defensive utility oriented trait).

Another option could be to make Illusionary Reversion baseline instead, and use the same idea for a replacement trait as outlined above. The idea of having a reset baseline to Chrono seems logical, as the specialization is all about resets.

Last thought is that they could just make Signet of Illusions actually work with Chrono shatters, with the reset only halving CS recharge instead of fully resetting it. This would make it very usable, and would solve a lot of issues with the specialization.

Last comment on Chrono, the changes they have made shifted the gameplay... it is growing on me, there being no reason to ever go in melee range without IP boost of damage means just fully staying at range and spamming reminder for permanent cripple, and all the alacrity to make Split Second and Time Sink available more often.

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Delofasht.4231" said:

> > A full rework on a trait is hardly the solution, as the trait is just another byproduct of the Clone design being broken. The reason CI ends up good is because it allows Mesmer to line up everything and then the damage sources become consistent. Once consistent damage is seen, it will definitely be viewed as too strong, that is the inherent problem with the profession though. Mesmer is not consistent because half the time Shatters will never reach the enemy or will be performed with less than the maximum number of clones.

> >

>

> You make a good point here actually this i can admit is a good way of wording things.

>

> > Fully rework the source of the profession’s problem first, then adjust the numbers and traits; doing any of these before changing that is just going to be nerfing a symptom of the real problem. Clones should be viewed as a resource, not sources of deception or vessels to carry damage to the enemy. For more information on tackling the main issue, read basically any of my previous posts where much detail has gone into a number of ways to resolve the issue and maintain some semblance of the same visual design with slightly different coded effects. Due to the design of elites being built on Core design, some amount of recoding to some traits would be necessary. Resolution to the problems of the profession as a whole would be resolved and balance could be maintained as future changes would no longer be adjusting symptoms of an inherent broken design.

>

> The deception part does add a bit of sustainability to the mesmer though even more so in a fight that involves multiple foes. That said i think they are counted as both right now. A resource and a source of deception / damage carriers.

>

> >

> > Another point worth noting, the majority may indeed feel CI is an actual problem, but the devs should know from their history that the majority of the player base is often wrong on what the actual problem is. The frustration from the Mesmer community is that we know this is not the issue, we even state what it is often, consistency and reliability. Remove the deficiencies by resolving the core issue first, then adjust the over performing traits and skills.

>

> This part i still dont agree with. CI is a problem (with the immobilize attached to it) Even under the idea that mesmer was not based on AI clones and phantoms to deal some of its damage the idea of locking down many other professions via stuns and immobilize at the same time is not healthy. Mesmer at any given time has multiple sources to proc this trait too so while it may not be the main issue as you see it. It is technically still a issue of being too oppressive. As I said reapers chill got the same treatment back when it first released. Players were either forced into taking extra clear specifically for chill or ideally locked down to easily by hearty chill durations. The majority of players did not like this... even though it was just as you say a core issue. As core necromancer is well we dont need to go there you know the state its in. and as you point out the elites are built on top. Yet chill application and duration was still nerfed in several ways regardless without a rework to the core profession.

>

> While what you say is likely a possibility that core mesmer is in need of a rework many other professions see the same kind of deal and have been waiting longer / just as long as mesmer. Mesmer has seen 2 reworks now in the past year or two and this issue with CI mirage as they called it out will likely lead to a 3rd.

>

> As for what you say about the devs listening to the player base..... when???

> ITs rare they do listen to the player base so this is kind of out of the ordinary for them.

>

> >

> > In short, CI makes the usually inconsistent Shatters and Clones a lot more consistent by applying an Immobilize to allow everything to be lined up, showing us how strong Mesmer could be if we were not reliant on a resource that could be destroyed and damage that can simply be outrun or disrupted on route to it’s target.

>

> What you say is not wrong but the way it goes about doing it is very oppressive to many other professions and play styles. Its not very healthy regardless of how mesmer is reworked something like this cant stay this powerful. It should have never been this way to start with really. It slipped through as other meta options were rolled for a while. Just like scepter 3 hitting hard as a truck for as long as it did before its nerf that should have never stayed that way for that long for the example.

>

> Before anet start doing core reworks they should probably at least make the game a bit more fair for everyone rather than leaving things in a unhealthy state till they can get around to solving the underlying issue.

>

> This would be my guess as to what they could be going for. As some people have stated its likely that mirage is gonna get the chrono treatment its going to gain some kind of loss or trade off for taking the elite spec like almost all the other professions have now. Mirage and chrono slipped by without these things for a very long time so of course people wont like things being taken away from them because they dont see others losing them at the same time. Fact is Mesmer is just late to the party for the goals anet is forcing on everyone.

>

A temporary fix will not resolve the issue, only lead to something else taking it’s place. I have already found a few things that have been working out so far, steps to improve the reliability of the skills by usage of other parts of the profession. A number of players are probably onto the same ideas as myself, and will result in the changes made being useless against those new builds. Thus a temporary fix will not actually resolve anything, and the issues of the core will remain, as something else will low or no counterplay takes it’s place. Thus player complaints will remain, and the true source of the issue will remain, and Mesmer builds will still have no counterplay because if -insert wrong reason here-; it will be the same cycle all over again.

A good suggestion I have seen for CI was to give it a bolt line shot effect with a fast but not too fast travel time, avoidable by strafing with good situational awareness, harder to avoid at closer range. Such a change requires no other traits or skills being tinkered with, as it is a function of player positional skills and timing. In my opinion, hard crowd control (ones that keep a player from performing actions like movement or actual skills) should always be ones that can be avoided by simply moving out of the way.

If they would tackle the source of the problem, then constant cry for Mesmer nerfs would also go away and they could then focus on core reworks for other professions.

A full rework on a trait is hardly the solution, as the trait is just another byproduct of the Clone design being broken. The reason CI ends up good is because it allows Mesmer to line up everything and then the damage sources become consistent. Once consistent damage is seen, it will definitely be viewed as too strong, that is the inherent problem with the profession though. Mesmer is not consistent because half the time Shatters will never reach the enemy or will be performed with less than the maximum number of clones.

Fully rework the source of the profession’s problem first, then adjust the numbers and traits; doing any of these before changing that is just going to be nerfing a symptom of the real problem. Clones should be viewed as a resource, not sources of deception or vessels to carry damage to the enemy. For more information on tackling the main issue, read basically any of my previous posts where much detail has gone into a number of ways to resolve the issue and maintain some semblance of the same visual design with slightly different coded effects. Due to the design of elites being built on Core design, some amount of recoding to some traits would be necessary. Resolution to the problems of the profession as a whole would be resolved and balance could be maintained as future changes would no longer be adjusting symptoms of an inherent broken design.

Another point worth noting, the majority may indeed feel CI is an actual problem, but the devs should know from their history that the majority of the player base is often wrong on what the actual problem is. The frustration from the Mesmer community is that we know this is not the issue, we even state what it is often, consistency and reliability. Remove the deficiencies by resolving the core issue first, then adjust the over performing traits and skills.

In short, CI makes the usually inconsistent Shatters and Clones a lot more consistent by applying an Immobilize to allow everything to be lined up, showing us how strong Mesmer could be if we were not reliant on a resource that could be destroyed and damage that can simply be outrun or disrupted on route to it’s target.

Blurred Inscriptions affects the actives of the Signets, not the passives. When you activate Signet of Illusions with Blurred Inscriptions traited it will make a clone in addition to instantly recharging all your shatter cooldowns (unless you are Chrono).

Rock the Bunker Mirage build, nothing funnier than watching people kill themselves trying to kill you.

Time to rebuild the “kill yourself” Mirage bunker again everyone. If they thought CI was annoying... hah.

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> It would make sense if there was more to follow up with redesign of clones.

>

> But given all their reasoning for making Illusionary Persona baseline in the first place, it makes no sense for suddenly removing it on Chrono with no other changes.

>

> In any case for Chrono I would have preferred to see pbaoe pulsing fields, matching the theme of wells and aoe suport, around the player with clones fuelling the field duration - and keeping IP intact so could get a single pulse without any clones.

It would have been extremely interesting to have played the game with sustaining point blank AoE fields by using clones as fuel. It is disappointing to think that there is quite a bit of anti synergy within the Mesmer profession as a whole now, but nothing we can do but make our thoughts known.

> @"Hiraga Taichiru.1580" said:

> Update:

> After putting up some changes (Costly) changes.. now Chronomancer can only stand good with either ignoring shatter skills and focus on burst attack without them, or make a clone spammer build and (Trailblazer) gear.

> ** However**

> chronomancer trait line can only give 1 non-damaging condition which is [slow] and its pretty useless without dmg.

> So here are my thoughts:

> **Chronomancer** can deal damage if they go with burst chrono, dropping the core use of shatter skills resulting to low sustain.

> **Chronomancer** can deal less damage if they change build and utility to spam clones to benefit from using shatter by dropping the powerful damage mentioned above.

> **Chronomancer** cannot support.

> **Chronomancer** could be used for condition damage with the spam of clones, however maintaining clones.

> **Chronomancer** with spamming clones build cannot handle outnumbered fight; clones get killed easily. So in final conclusion this class cannot stand with Large scale fights

Root of the issue: Clones running to melee range to explode, being destroyable, and SoI having been changed (double Mesmers bouncing boons indefinitely was admittedly quite silly). Slow being the only Chrono specific condition is actually fine, but they should have had access to some chills and burns in the trait line as well in my opinion. Chrono design has always seemed rather lackluster, Wells too, very limited in every way, but elites did not seem very well thought out in HoT and were just superior versions of the core professions.