Ailuro.2780

> Frankly, even many players that use the "meta" builds and rotations don't fully understand all the intricaties that had to be considered to make that build a success. Often, they just understand some high points, but miss a lot of less immediately visible interactions. So, how can players that do _not_ follow third-party sites get all that? Just to reinforce that it its just the basics that can be easily taught,

> Frankly, even many players that use the "meta" builds and rotations don't fully understand all the intricaties that had to be considered to make that build a success. Often, they just understand some high points, but miss a lot of less immediately visible interactions. So, how can players that do not follow third-party sities get all that? They won't, and that's alright. That's the part that is left to learning through time and effort. > Sure, the basis of each rotation may seem extremely simple (chain skills in a way that you can use the best damage skills as soon as they go off cooldown, fill the gaps with secon-tier damage skills, fill the gaps in those with autoattacking), but that in itself is not really as easy as it seems. This. All they need to know is the principles, which is what forms the basis of any good teaching/training mechanism in game-design. It's up to the players where they take it. But having a lightpost than none is the way to go. Through more practise, and live like strikes, raids and fracs, they'll understand themselves but at least they know the direction to go in.

> @"Oxstar.7643" said: > I'd like to offer the following perspective. If players can teach players what they need to know or details being derived from the wiki, is it worth the time and cost for ANet to make tutorial stuff that goes in deep detail? You have to weigh benefits against expenses in the end. > Please note I am not taking sides here, nor do I purport to know what the situation is. I just want to put the question out there. 100% That's the point of the second suggestion for better player to player interaction however what about the players that fall in between the cracks? What about the people who aren't all that ready to join a group? And again, the tutorial stuff does not go in deep detail. I do not understand what in my post has led you to believe it is about an in-depth tutorial but it is just an intro the the basics and providing a better structured path to end-game content unlike what it is now.

> Is the purpose of this suggestion to make everyone a min-maxer, so that all content released becomes 10x-higher in difficulty? Is the goal to have another Wildstar? It seems that game didn't go over that well. No, the purpose of it is to make new-game content more in-depth and provide players the opportunity to be more prepared for all content. This means just being able to start and understand it. > Somehow, all of us playing managed to 'learn the game' enough to still play. Sorry but I completely disagree with this statement. I have been in several Guilds, and in one right now focused on helping new players. In my 4 or so continuous years of doing that, I have met thousands of players who do not differ in knowledge or skill from when they're at level 20. The number of people I've met too intimidated to start fractals, WvW, or PvP without a push or someone explaining the simple steps that could've been easily covered by the game. I really need to make this clear because half of the people on this thread understand my point, and the other are misinterpreting it. The whole point of the suggestion is to just SHOW some level of basic information not go all the way and feed them with a silver spoon. As it stands there is no integration whatsoever between beginner and end-game content, you're just thrown out there. This is faulty game design, in my opinion.

> And even being delivered on a platter is no guarantee that players will learn anything - because the complexity of the information matters a lot. > As you can probably see, i don't really believe introducing more training opportunities would improve things significantly. Personally, i think that it's not the lack of training opportunities, but rather the complexity of the system itself (coupled with next to no ways to bypass the learning part) that cause a problem here. I would like to hear your views on why you believe the complexity of the system is too great. Personally, I agree that to some extent, some parts of the system is indeed complex however I do believe some parts that are left untouched are very very simple to learn. For example, the ideal combo, and why. Every core build has a basic combo, and a "better" combo. This would teach the fundamental "attack" style of any profession and what they're good at for DPS, and what they're not. The combos for different weapons as well. This is an easy solution to just introduce the basics of how to master their profession via the Instructor/sparring/training instance. Another thing is learning about end-game content. Either in the instance via a board, or the NPC can answer questions on "How do I start Fractals?" "What do I need to know about WvW?" or another option that leads to the guild panel tab idea that says here are the guilds that specialize in WvW (which is just the filtered for WvW). Another common issue with new players who reach level 80 is they don't understand what an ideal rotation is. Just supplanting the idea of a basic team that has a basic rotation with the different profession and showing these NPCs rotate around a golem would do a great job of a visual explanation. The number of people that come on to strikes and raids, and have no idea how to co-ordinate nor even intuitively begin to understand the environmental or boss mechanics is insane. A huge issue in this game I've personally encountered is then the elitism of NOT casual players who look down on these players. Everyone starts off somewhere but people should definitely not be starting there for that deep into the game. Plus I believe if we did this, in the future we could have PvE leaderboards showcasing the top 10 guilds that are compeleting the gamemode in the fastest type, this would promote more of a community challenge drive.

Furthermore, if not to solidify my stance, there is a recent post: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/124305/how-to-start-a-new-player#latest Which mentions extra things I have yet to cover, the need for knowledge on how important collections can be, how important is to learn how to navigate the achievements panel and the priority to the things within the achievements panel is non-existent. The lack of information on how someone gets started on fractals, and then progresses. The list of absent information for preparing the new player to end game content just goes on and on.

> It comes up because the OP is partially complaining he doesn't get that detailed information in the game ... and I'm arguing it shouldn't need to be there. First of all, please don't insinuate things that I'm not claiming. My post is purely what I think would benefit new players. Like I said, I've been playing for nearly 8 years now. I have no issue reading the wiki or watching youtube for information. The same way you clearly don't have an issue for it. However, you're arguing against the idea of an option of it being in-game but that's purely subjective and an opinion because it suits **yourself**. Secondly, I've provided repeated examples of players who reach end-game content, and you haven't replied to that at all as if those kinds of players don't exist. There seems to be a very bad habit here in this post of misquoting, and not replying to the full argument. Finally, just answer this one simple question. Should there be an option for players to learn mechanics in-game through the help of incentive missions, NPC, and whatever it it is because many comments have offered alternative but great ideas? If no, then okay that's not the option for yourself but that doesn't mean just because you dont' want to do it, other players shouldn't have the chance to make an option.

> If it's optional, players will by and large most likely not do it. Leaving the same problem you're describing in place. Why would they not do it? It's the choice of between reading text and not playing the game, versus engaging in the game. Here the argument that "if it's optional" doesn't really work considering if you weigh the two, it is way more fun to actually learn in the game than read the wiki. Sure, it's subjective but speaking from my own experience, more people would choose to learn it in the game than read from the wiki. > Don't need in game tutorial sessions to learn that the higher DPS you have the faster you kill things. That most would call the game insulting their intelligence. There are different ways of achieving this due to the difference in weapons and professions. Letting the players understand exactly how to achieve a higher DPS from a specific combo and understanding their trait lines is not something insulting. I'll say this again, many players come to end-game content with no clue what is the right weapons for them to achieve a high dps, much less knowing about combo effects in their chosen profession. The argument I'm coming from is there is more than enough evidence of people simply having to copy template builds and just forget about everything they've played with prior, it shows that they have poor understanding of the game mechanics. This is exactly why I disagree with: > the game does a good job of teaching the necessary skills At the very least, if the game did a good job of teaching the necessary skills, then players would have to change a couple chosen traits in their specialization because learning that is pretty time-consuming. As far as I'm aware, a majority of new players who reach lvl 80 don't even understand why they should use a greatsword over axe/mace as as a warrior in PvE modes.

This is a fantastic idea. Transparency and communication is what GW2 really needs right now. In my opinion, if at the very least there were weekly dev streams that pointed out the noteworthy bugs and issues talked about by the Community would give some level of baseline to knowing that hey they're really paying attention and while they might not be fixing it ASAP, they care. If we take a look at a game like Ashes of Creation, which is the current no.1 hyped up upcoming MMORPG, we see this is coming from that great level of interaction with the community and constant weekly back and forth communication and transparency on the issues they're dealing with and what they've noted from us.

> @"Seera.5916" said: > The problem is that type of content assumes everyone needs to be hand held through how to play the game and doesn't want to learn through other means. > I would hate having to go through the tutorial stuff you mentioned. Tutorial sessions are never like the actual game. They're boring and players will just use skill until they find the one that works and won't figure out why it works vs why others won't. Players want to get to the game or get back to the game. Not play a mandatory tutorial. As described through the pre-existing examples of the "tutorials" in town and around the beginner maps, those are completely optional. I do not support the idea of mandatory tutorials. That would go against the nature of the hands-off approach in the levelling process of guild wars2. > The game would be better served by having actual missions or quests in game have new mechanics put into them that organically teach things that players need to know. The mission you described is a great idea, and like another person commented on an incentive to get a chest. Here you said: > make NPC's mention the fact that it needs some crowd control and they can use the "CC weapon" to apply some if too much time goes by without progress. It would be very easy to weave in either the story or around the maps bosses having critical weaknesses and the NPCs saying something. As you already know, the training golems exist and are great to practise rotations with however from my experience, most players never know they exist till they're mentioned by another player. > doesn't want to learn through other means. Bringing back what you said, this is the essential thing. There should be the freedom of choice to the player that they can go to either the wiki OR in the game with an NPC OR learn with friends OR learn with friends and they can practise alone when they want but the integration of the idea of practising skills and being conscious of what they actually do is not a well made option in my opinion. Players who prefer the wiki and videos can do that, but not everyone wants to learn this way.

> @"Oxstar.7643" said: > These "insignificant things" are part of what's called polish. Something I see come up a lot lately. Exactly, players who are dismissive and called it insignificant simply just learn to live with it. That's not the right attitude. A game, especially an MMORPG should always be focused on improving its gameplay, especially the minor inadequacies when they cumulate to the hundreds.

> @"Astyrah.4015" said: > > @"Oxstar.7643" said: > > I doubt we need an instanced training area. > > one thing i wish they'd add to the starter zones, though not really an instanced area is a "CC-this-thing corner" with a chest on it kinda like the "dodge-the-spikes corner" with a chest on it. it wont be part of map completion, it would be super optional but it's a very small mini tutorial that could entice players to do it as soon as they can or come back for it later because it's a chest they haven't opened before. a tool tip popup would appear just like the one on the dodge-the-spikes informing the player for the first time how to get to the chest. > > it can be as simple as a stone pedestal (breakable object with a CC breakbar) with a chest on top that you have to use CC skills/abilities on in order to get the chest down and opened. maybe it's a good and friendly way to introduce breakbars and CC abilities to new players that in the future level 80 content they'd do, they'll get reminded of this "breakbar" > That's actually a great idea! Things that promote the incentive to actually understand the essential skills in the game to prepare for end-game content is really needed in GW2. It'd be far simpler adding that than the instructor idea. The only benefit I see with an instanced training area is the fact that it allows the possible integration of playing around with different weapons easier and changing of stats easier as you can also put this in a home instance possibly with a bank.

> @"Obtena.7952" said: > there shouldn't be SOME level of effort on the player to learn how the game works. The point is the player learn how the game works IN the game, with both a better integration to find guildmates and just friends AND A better **training** system. What is more engaging to learning fractals for example? Playing fractals, and practising with group friends OR looking up a wiki? It's dry. It's bland. It's boring. The focus here isn't for players who don't want to put in effort, it's for players who are trying to find answers IN THE game. More importantly, please do understand that the Instructor idea serves as a place to experiment and practise _over the course of the levelling journey.__ That's quite literally asking for the need to put in effort and practise but IN the game, learning mechanics in a clearly designated training area PREPARING new players for end-game content.

> @"vicky.9751" said: > But as far as builds go, it really depends on the _kind of player playing the game_. I understand but I definitely think that the game could do a better job of demonstrating stats at play in a training mode element. In fact, even today I was helping new players with fractals and dungeons, and they were level 76-80 who had no idea what makes a build useful for their profession. I think my main gripe is with how there is a lack of display on how important weapon skills are and affects what kind of build you should run.

> @"Noah Salazar.5430" said: > well for me most dificult was to interact with players, as word maps from 1-80lv was too ez, so no one wanted group up or interacted with me (until i forced it) Yep, it is easy to fall into that rift of never really finding players much less having the option of choosing the kind of guild you want to be in.

> @"Sobx.1758" said: This is now just becoming circular, and unproductive. You have repeated yourself multiple times insinuating I'm claiming something that I'm not, all the whilst quoting me but the explanation is in said quote or right after. Here are some repeated points: 1. I've never said they don't have access or don't want to read the info either from the hero panel or not. 2. I said the textile formatting could be improved via an NPC that walks you through things, never that the naming is confusing but just forgettable. 3. This is something of a just "no ur wrong" argument, I've said that new players and returning alike meaning those who are already aware of the main stats like power, condi, boon, are still confused to what makes a build viable much less traits come end-game. 4. You literally said people can just go google it, nothing about in-game availability... because it doesn't exist. > they **can also skip it by googling meta/fotm/top builds for their class,** > the learning process. There is no learning process to finding the viable build, especially in end-game. The only learning process is either: a) someone tells you what to play b) someone tells you to wiki x build. c) you get denied higher fracs, denied raids, denied strikes because you don't know it since nothing in the game told you how to set up for it. I'll leave it at this because as I said, I find this highly unproductive. Say what you will that I'm pretending something, and that I'm the one not reading yours but you are which works great in your favour.

> @"Sobx.1758" said: Your initial argument is more or less waving off the casual players' game sense, and making a ton of assumptions that this is what people should do. Which is exactly the last thing you want to design a system as important as stats as. I said "players have no idea what having a build actually mean". This is quite literally the equivalent of not knowing what goes into a build. I don't really know what to say here other than why do you expect it is a sensible idea that players who dont know about traits and things as a result of the gameplay is their own fault? > They can also skip it by googling meta/fotm/top builds for their class, I've already explained this as a question, if you believe that it is more engaging and player retentive to go away from the game to find answers instead of practising and learning in the game then there's nothing to say there. > It's clear that you can't get everything at the same time. Yes. That's the point. Rather than getting it away from the game, you get it during the process of practise and exposure in the game to lvl 80. Ultimately, the bias of an experienced player who also clearly isn't a casual MMORPG player is seen here rather than the new casual player where it's a "oh it's just there", just "google it, look at the wiki". With any reason of sensibility, no casual player would find it fun to actually go minimize the game to look at youtube tutorials and read the wiki than learning it with friends IN the game. Which is the main point.

> @"Sobx.1758" said: > What do you mean "no explanation to what makes this useful"? **There are skill/trait descriptions ** and tooltips with effects listed and dmg values shown which you can compare between the skills. This is what the casual player sees when they level up:  It is quite frankly just a word vomit. There is no lesson learned from either consequences or benefiting of a particular stat, and more than not this will be forgotten in the next half n hour much less 30 levels in and people are jumping from weapon to weapon. There is clearly no opportunity to actually understand the gravity of how much power I have actually effects my damage output. There is no integration from this to this:   Which is even more of a visual screen mess. You don't need to ask hundreds of players to realize after helping run dungeons, much less t1-t2 fractals, to realize that players have no idea what having a build actually means nor the significance of their profession and what stats are most viable. Even after on and off years, this remains an absolute pattern amongst new players. This is just a core missed opportunity by ANET to drive player engagement and give the combat system a greater depth by providing players the actual hands-on training with varying stats. > There's nothing to try the skills on (even if for some reason you don't consider mobs being something to experiment on) -at the very least there are training areas in aerodrome/pvp. This is exactly the issue. I wrote the post in the perspective for a new player/returning player. Unless told, no player has 0 idea golems exist. There is literally no mention of it anywhere during the levelling process that you can go to PvP and try new skills, this is not even beginning to mention how the PvP build panel wouldn't be overwhelming. Moreover, it just wouldn't be thematical for a player to train what would be intended for PvE in a PvP lobby. > This is another thing I don't really understand the problem with. What do you mean "what happens when you have higher dps"? Isn't this pretty self-explanatory? Everybody understands the sentence "more strength, more damage". But what does that exactly mean to World Bosses? Dungeons? Environmental mechanics? Fractals? To your build where in many rotations, there's no need for certain professions to be high DPS? There is no baseline for a player to comparatively weigh the effects of changing builds through their levelling process provided by the game. > and for the most part, they're not? Players can go do their entire personal story, living season, and t1 fractals and dungeons without ever having to realize the importance of a build. Like I said already, there **is a hands off** approach to stats so yes they're not but this presents the issue of leaving TOO much information with no indicator to where to start.

> @"Astyrah.4015" said: > not everyday or every time you play you'd have a recruiter shouting in /map and not every time you'll have a guild recruitment party/ad in LFG, also not everyone checks the forums and not everyone is part of the GW2 discord and the reddit subs so having more ingame ways to search for a guild and apply for one even if the recruiters/officers are currently offline would be nice. Definitely! Things that are integrated in the game keeps player in the game.

> @"ElijahFitzroy.5762" said: > You have some interesting ideas here, when I was reading through it though it reminds me a lot of the PvP lobby. It would probably be simpler to just direct them there to practice against the training golems and the various professions. That too is a great idea! In fact that would help integrate an introduction to PvP at an earlier level rather than at lvl 80! > I would suggest maybe having this at level 70 or even 80. A more through explanation of what the stats are would be nice and what they are used for. The biggest issue is that this game tries to stay away from the holy trinity so there is no straight way to tell someone how to make a build since there are hundreds of thousands of options for builds. Yep, as stated, this would benefit new and later players alike but a demonstration would be superior to an explanation in my opinion. The issue of avoiding the holy trinity is solved with the freedom of being able to experiment with builds in the "training room".

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said: > There's already a tab for Guild Recruitment; what/where do you suggest there be another? Ah I have worded it incorrectly.  In the guild panel itself to have a new tab that allows for a search function. > I'm not sure a Fair point! The aim is to just develop a simple understanding towards how at least DPS is affected by a higher power or condi damage. The strong case for this is if the instructor were to perform the same skill with different builds to show how just power affects damage, it would easily show where each stat stands. More importantly, this would be a process from Lvl 5-20 (where ever is most suitable to begin) to lvl 80 which would be easily enough time to grasp the core mechanics of builds. > Also, keep in mind not all skills are unlocked at L15 and under. Indeed, the benefit here is that ahead of time the player can see the instructor perform skills of different weapons which allows the player to have the opportunity to evaluate the playstyle they want during lvl 5-80. In the current state of the game, new players for the most part drop one weapon for a better but different one through the levelling process. This is purely based off anecdotal experience from interviewing other players however most new players rarely browse the TP to buy a better but same weapon to play with throughout the game.