Gyro.9182

> @"Svata.8034" said: > YEAH free up space and add Bootcamp. Adding Bootcamp (presumably with the intention of running GW2 under it) will clog the disk space far more, instead of freeing up space. Just sayin'.

Now this is funny (sort of). I can still start the client, get a message "support has been discontinued" - but I can log in, and yes, it wants to download a lot of files (10,000+, it seems). For whatever reason - the "Play" button has been removed, after all, so I do not benefit at all from whatever is being downloaded. A good time to free up about 50 GB on my Mac.

> @"Valatha.6048" said: > Finally, I guess, when ArenaNet had decided to stop providing the Mac client, they see it as a wise decision in the income point of view. No argument here. But, instead of cutting down completely Mac client, why not reduce the department in charge of the Mac client. I have no problem waiting more time for an update, for support, etc. At least, I can still continue to enjoy the game. I strongly suspect that despite framing Apple for everything, the "Mac department" has already been shrunk sufficiently that they can't maintain a viable Mac version of the game. They are only blaming Apple for things that would indeed lie in their own control, such as keeping the client alive for those able to use it as it is.

I think that the direction this discussion is taking is not really helpful for the matter at hand. Apple's motivation, the quality, ease of use or performance of Meta, while interesting, do not have that much of a bearing on the topic listed at the top...? In general, posts that focus on either criticising Apple's policies or defend them are in my opinion not really of interest here.

> @"Hypnowulf.7403" said: > Apple was entirely responsible for the death of Flash. Do we blame Flash game developers for that? That'd be silly, wouldn't it? Well, that's what this is too. I don't think that (apart from developers in firms that produced Flash) you will find too many people mourning the demise of Flash, permanent source of performance and battery drain and security leaks that it was. As for the rest of the discussion, you probably missed a couple of relevant points - ignoring your opinions on Metal: * OpenGL support by Apple ended in 2018. OpenGL is still included in macOS today (yes, even in the latest versions), and I have not yet seen Apple stating that it will be removed in a concrete macOS version. The support is "frozen", so there are no further updates and one has to live with shortcomings and bugs that exist, but it *does* work. * Anet had time since 2018 to adapt their client from OpenGL to Metal. That is quite an amount of time. Perhaps doing so was impossible, unrealistic, or financially unattractive for Anet - that's for others to judge -, but one can hardly argue that there was not enough time to work on it. * Apple is not killing OpenGL on February 18, and even if it did, it could only do so by providing an update that would remove OpenGL. Users would then be free to either install that update or not. (My best guess is that some future release of macOS will remove support - but it's up to the user to decide whether they upgrade to it or not, it's not like the Windows 10 "OS upgrades", but an intentional act by the user to install a new macOS version.) Thus, there is nothing that enforces "end of life" for GW2 by February 18 *caused by Apple*. * Killing off the client, even for those users who don't care about M1 issues (99% of the current Mac users probably have an Intel-based Mac which includes OpenGL) is an intentional decision by Anet, and not caused by Apple. There may be perfectly valid reasons for that (lack of developers, consequences of 2020 and the pandemic, ...), but talking about M1 and OpenGL just doesn't give an honest picture. And that's what upsets **me** more than the fact that a beloved game is killed for a share of its players.

> @"Linken.6345" said: > And then you would have the people that read, oh macOS great it works for my machine not knowing what intel means and then get mad at anet. I am sure one can spin things in any direction, if one really wants to. Does not mean it makes sense to do so. If Anet no longer wanted to support Windows 7, should they also stop the Windows client for Windows 10 (and 8), because some people are not aware which version of Windows they are running? As it is, **all** Mac users are to some extend "mad at Anet", I fail to see how that is better than your proposal.

> @"Linken.6345" said: > So if anet advertise that its avaliable on mac and then dont work on all type of macs people will accept that? > I dont think so hence why they are pulling out. If Anet advertised that it is available on *macOS/Intel*, but they are unable to provide a *macOS/M1* version, I would assume that (a) almost all Mac users will accept that (you will never reach 100% acceptance for *anything*, I assume), (b) it will not matter to most Mac users at the moment, © the current player base would simply be able to continue playing. Saying "we can't port it to a system *you and 99% of all current Mac users* are not actually using, so we will go a step further and kill the game that works on your machine, too" is a somewhat different message, isn't it? And that's the one Anet is sending. Repeating myself, if there are reasons (lack of money, the lead Mac developer is leaving Anet, ...) that prevent Anet from supporting the current client, I would understand that (thought I would, of course, still not be happy about it). But blaming Apple's new chipset *that has no bearing on the existing client* and the announcing "so we just kill it for everybody who is not affected by the new chip, and who could have continued using the game"...?

> @"dandamanno.4136" said: > Most companies find it not worthwhile. Im not sure why people are surprised that Anet wouldn't be willing to support Mac going forward, now that extra time and expense would be required. As pointed out several times, there is a difference between „not supporting the new products“ (fine, everybody can understand that, whether happy about it or not) and „kill the game even for the existing platform that does **not** require „extra time and expense“ beyond what it always did. The latter is what Anet is doing by killing the game for all Mac users. If this is due to a lack of manpower, time or money, OK, but then they could be honest and say so. It is **not** because of „changes Apple made“, as they will not affect 99% of the Mac player base anytime soon (most of such probably don‘t have the intention to switch to M1 „right now“, plus they have only introduced the laptops + Mini so far with M1, not the iMac).

> @"Nephalem.8921" said: > Graphics api is used for more than gaming. How many of the 14800 applications are games? How many are mobile games? While I can‘t speak for the 14,800 (Apple apparently lists it as 148,000, „as of June 2017“), you might check the list on Wikipedia here to see some examples including well-known (and not „small“) games like CIV VI, Dota 2, Quake 2, diverse Tomb Raider or Total War games, WoW, or Fortnite. URL for the lazy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_(API) (the list is probably neither complete nor very recent)..

> @"Opopanax.1803" said: > I dont think anyone is nieve enough to think this all one sided, but the reality is very much that Apple creates there own treadmills. Most of us have known this for quite some time. I like your statement. However, I have seen a sufficient number of posts that indeed blame Apple exclusively for this, so I have to respectfully disagree with the first part of the sentence, without disagreeing with the rest...

> @"Speedylord.2798" said: > If you're really into gaming (as the term Mac gamer implies), I would stronly recommend just getting a Windows (or linux perhaps) gaming desktop/laptop, the performance difference and overall game experience is pretty big :)! I might've misinterpreted your wording though. My wording might have been a bit unclear. I am a Mac user (for a variety of reasons that do not belong here) who also likes to play games, and has played computer games for far more years than I would be willing to admit here. However, while I have a good amount of gold in my GW2 account, I do not have enough surplus, not-needed-for-anything-else-but-fun real-world gold to buy yet another computer "just for gaming" (and keeping it updated regularly, etc.). I am aware that some games run only on Windows, and some run "better" on Windows, but at the end of the day, it's question of what you can afford, or want to invest in, only for fun. (I don't have a PlayStation, Xbox, ... either).

You gotta love the community here. "Why would anybody play on a Mac in any case?", "Apple sucks", "Apple is to blame for everything", "Anet has explained that Apple is to blame", yatta yatta. (Not necessarily all in this thread). Please... 1. Just spare us Mac users who are somewhere between sad, tired, frustrated and heart-torn your sentiments on the quality of the macOS platform. We don't care to hear them, they don't help us or the situation, and are usually more insulting than helpful. If a relative you love is badly hurt, comparisons that their brother was always better at playing soccer won't help. I know this is not a good analogy, but if you're not a Mac user, or consider the platform inferior by nature without having anything else to provide, do the respectful thing, keep your mouth shut (or keyboard untouched), and go somewhere else. 2. I don't believe Anet's statement is really fully truthful. (I'll give you some time to get outraged or whatever). Why? **Yes**, Apple has introduced a new CPU - so Anet could simply state "sorry, we lack the resources to port it to M1, you can try it, but no promises, and no porting to it planned for now". I assume Apple users would understand that - at least those who work with software development do. **Yes**, Apple "no longer supports OpenGL" - but Apple **did that in 2018, and has kept the same version of OpenGL since, in all including the newest macOS versions** for Intel-based Macs (it's possibly/probably missing on M1, but I am not sure about that). And guess what, GW2 runs on macOS 11.1 (the latest version there is) just as well (or not-too-great, or whatever) as it did before Apple made the announcement. **Yes**, there is a chance that Apple will remove OpenGL altogether from a **future** version of OpenGL - in this case, point that out to users: "note that if you update to macOS XX (with XX > 11.1, and some time in the future), Guild Wars 2 will no longer run." Again, fine, that gives me the ability to choose whether I want to update my OS or keep GW2 alive and running. What Anet does instead is kill a working and running client, **for no valid Apple-caused reason that would mean it could not work beyond February 18**, roughly at the half-way point between the release of the current macOS and the next version (11.2?). **This is not Apple's fault, or caused by Apple**, but a **decision made by Anet**. And I at least would appreciate honesty, I have heard lies, falsehoods, scapegoating etc. far too often over the course of the last year(s).

> @"Linken.6345" said: > You do know that apple fully droped support for OpenGL in 2018 right? Please, not that tired argument again. Yes, Apple **stopped** "support" for OpenGL in 2018, which means that there have not been any (or at least no meaningful ones, perhaps there were a few I did not notice) updates to OpenGL. But guess what, my Macs are running the latest OS, latest update (about a month old), and guess whether Guild Wars 2 still runs as well as ever (not great, but usable) using OpenGL on them? By your logic, Guild Wars 2 should have died sometime in 2018...? Apple "stopping support" means *almost nothing*, as the game has continued running, and will continue to run until Apple provides a macOS update that actively removes all OpenGL support instead of "keeping it intact, just outdated". (This won't be before this fall at least, by the way). And even then, nobody would force me to update to that macOS release. Instead, Anet is dumping the whole game in about five weeks, although it would have worked just as well as before for Intel-based Mac users, at least until fall. So Anet pulling the plug now, and blaming Apple for it, is scapegoating Apple for a problem Anet has. Sorry.

> @"anduriell.6280" said: > Probably the dev who did the OpelGL adaptation is working no more for Anet. So there is nobody to work in the mac client. I assume that this, or something similar, is the real reason. Not the fact that Apple will fully drop OpenGL support at some (unknown) point in the future - and only for those updating to the then-new version of OpenGL -, meaning that those on Intel-based Macs could continue playing until then, or "forever" as long as they do not update to a Mac with M1/M2/... (whatever they have at the time), or a macOS that precludes OpenGL support. I would appreciate calling a banana a banana, however, and stating outright "we lack the resources to maintain the current client, or to develop a new one for macOS, or even to port new additions, after 2020. We are sorry about this and hope for your understanding". I would be 100% OK with that (although still quite sad). But what they communicate is something totally different, and there simply is no reason to kill the game for all Intel-based current users "by mid-February" that is **dictated by Apple**, as some here have stated. (I am well aware of the difficulties of porting, so skip explaining that to me, as I do not ask for this. Being unable or unwilling to keep the client alive given no changes from Apple's side for the current user base, minus M1-based users - which is a very small minority at the moment, surely -, but blaming Apple's decisions and their future effect is simple false representation and using a scapegoat, however, and I am totally fed up with such behaviour.)

I just want to point out that (a) ANet has apparently (if memory serves) laid off a number of staff lately, and (b) it was clear since at least 2018 that OpenGL is not going to be, or remain, a viable option for macOS X (then Mac OS X) for a "longer amount of time". It still works, but support might be discontinued with Big Sur (in autumn) or next year. However, that does not mean that everybody with a Mac will update, or will be able to update, to the latest OS that will then no longer provide OpenGL support (e.g., your Mac might be too old to allow installation of the new OS, you don't want to be an early adopter, you have other software that prevents an early (or any) update, ...). Simply giving up on the platform with little advance warning is making me feel a mix of emotions, none of which are "happy". However, it's also quite possible that due to (a) above, they simply lack the manpower to continue working on the Windows-only version and expansions, while also at least maintaining the Mac platform. I also notice that the posting said that **For the time being, Mac users can still play Guild Wars 2 using the Nvidia GeForce Now service while streaming over the Internet**. (Apart from the fact that this costs money, and I am not sure how well it will work depending on your Internet connection, the **for the time being** means "this will probably end at any point in time, perhaps soon, and perhaps with little advance warning".