Kovu.7560

I watched a burn guard drop a zerg with the fifth skill on the dragon banner in a tight corridor (dredge tunnels) once.

Nobody expected those burns to matter so they just kept fighting.

That said, in most scenarios its not hard to simply... not stand in the big line of fire.

I honestly get more use out of the turtle banner. AoE invulnerability and AoE zerg knockback is pretty potent.

~ Kovu

> @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> Just give the evade back. Was a missplaced nerf anyways.

This. While Soulbeast may arguably be overtuned in some areas, Druid is a literal dumpster fire in competitive settings.

~ Kovu

@"RedShark.9548" I started typing a post and then realized I was literally rehashing the same stuff I said three posts ago.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

The patch will hit, we'll see how things play out with the nerfs.

~ Kovu

edit- @"Anput.4620" You're right, nobody should have to deal with "warclaw BS", but that speaks more to the necessity of a nerf to warclaw than it does to _not_ nerfing the mobility on high-mobility professions.

> @"Anput.4620" said:

> I also mainly care about my mobility relative to a Warclaw as that is important to not get ganked, 15s cd on swoop would be fine if Warclaw didn't exist.

For what its worth I'm pretty sure the warclaw movement is being reduced to not-in-your-territory movement and (possibly?) the dodges will be affected as well. I can't find an Anet post on the matter, but folks around the forum seem to indicate that's a thing that's been discussed. Longbow on ranger is still one of the better tools for dealing with mounted players and the brief knockdown off their pet often allows an extra free shot or two. Plus if they're running away they're probably starting the fight some distance from you so you can pew pew to your heart's content. If they're a thief, mesmer or a bunker build they may still escape, but _everyone_ has to deal with this fact.

It is true some of the other professions escaped minor mobility nerfs but rangers are still arguably in the best position to deal with mounted runners. So there's that at least.

~ Kovu

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > > > > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > > > > > You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and **nobody really arguing for you**

> > > > > > Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ~ Kovu

> > > > >

> > > > > In what world is warrior your kryptonite???

> > > > > Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

> > > > >

> > > > > He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

> > > >

> > > > Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

> > > >

> > > > I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they _are_ better at.

> > > >

> > > > ~ Kovu

> > >

> > > You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

> > >

> > > A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

> >

> > _My_ kryptonite, as in me personally for the build _I_ run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

> >

> > ~ Kovu

>

> Eveb if you rolled a propet longbiw build youd probably have much better odds

The main comparison of this thread seems to be how the OP's concerns with regard to mobility are invalid because they're "comparing apples to oranges", and while that may or may not be true everyone is busy talking about the strengths of the apple (ranger) and not of that of the orange (warrior). I thought I'd pipe in and talk about the orange for a little bit.

But sure, disregard everything I mentioned in a previous post about how warriors can literally tank and regen power damage for days and reflect projectiles and assume pewpew to be a suitable counter. If you want to think that rangers are somehow omnipotent, I honestly can't stop you.

You guys can continue discussing the whole swoop nerf with Anput, I couldn't be arsed about that particular change.

~ Kovu

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > > > You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and **nobody really arguing for you**

> > > > Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

> > > >

> > > > As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

> > > >

> > > > Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> > > >

> > > > ~ Kovu

> > >

> > > In what world is warrior your kryptonite???

> > > Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

> > >

> > > Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

> > >

> > > He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

> >

> > Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

> >

> > I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they _are_ better at.

> >

> > ~ Kovu

>

> You said warrior is the kryptonite to ranger which highly indicates a hard counter, which warrior just isnt.

>

> A hardcounter to warrior would be like dragon hunter vs warrior, which definately isnt the case in a warrior vs ranger.

_My_ kryptonite, as in me personally for the build _I_ run. If I rolled condi I'd probably have better odds, or I could tank up on boonbeast and force a stalemate.

~ Kovu

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and **nobody really arguing for you**

> > Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

> >

> > As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

> >

> > Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> >

> > ~ Kovu

>

> In what world is warrior your kryptonite???

> Im serious, are we playing the same effing game? Sure you might not play a optimal build to fight warriors, but there sure as kitten are ranger builds that stomp warrior and laugh at him while doing it, in no world in warrior the counter to ranger kitten.

>

> Yea, here we are again, multiple ppl trying to tell him why ranger has certain advantages over warrior, that justify longer cds on swoop, because they simply exist, no questions asked.

>

> He has literally no argument, always just repeats "what about mesmer or thief" or "core war wrecks my build" no real explanation given and no understanding of the fact that other builds can wreck that core warrior.

Warrior mobility is only somewhat weaker than ranger's and generally good enough to catch rangers that initially commit to a fight, they have several tools to slow down rangers trying to run away via cripple, their damage in melee pre-patch dwarfs anything a ranger can put, much of that damage (pre-patch) coming attached to stuns, they have enough uptime on projectile reflection to counter ranged spam until they close the gap, arguably more damage mitigation, a larger health pool, higher base armor/defense, better stun break access and prevention, passive and active regeneration, the ability to be immune to critical hits (which they can cycle into their other immunities for nice power-damage mitigation for a longer duration) and some of the larger damage coefficients in the game (whereas rangers have lower coefficients due to their pets supposedly significantly contributing to the fight).

I'm not saying warriors are universally better at everything, but there are certainly things they _are_ better at.

~ Kovu

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> You have like 3 or 4 ppl talking against you and **nobody really arguing for you**

Oh, we're here. We're just tired of rehashing the same arguments over and over again year-in-and-year-out. In the end, 8-out-of-9 players approve of ranger nerfs.

As a ranger main, warrior is basically my kryptonite, but as it seems like warrior, ranger and elementalist saw the biggest nerfs and I'm not actually all that bummed about cooldown increases to the swoops. Those cooldowns are still fairly short, it is what it is. Honestly, its the continued nerfs to druid healing, core ranger, as well as weapons and utilities never seen in this gamemode that gets me.

Like, if Druid healing is overpowered in pve, nerf it in pve -- not here. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

~ Kovu

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > I'm weirdly in agreement with the majority of posts in this thread. That doesn't usually happen. I stated my opinions on the likely upcoming state of roaming in another thread, and direct 1v1'ers are just the lawful cousins of roamers so I'll post my opinion from there, here.

> >

> > > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > The power stat got a massive nerf effectively, due to all of the coefficients being gutted across the board for everyone. Meanwhile sustain got a smaller nerf. You'll find fewer roamers investing as heavily into power (as it means less) and more into condition damage and defensive stats (which'll counter some of that sustain loss caused by skill nerfs). Overall fights will get longer, uncoordinated/solo bursts will be less successful.

> > >

> > > Therefore my prediction is that the professions with the tools to stealth and kite will have a greater edge in combats and will see improved survival odds. Thieves, mesmers mostly. Pocket firebrands will be _even more_ impossible to kill because while (I assume, I haven't read the guardian notes) they haven't gotten much worse at what they do, the people trying to focus them down will have a more difficult time doing so -- so you'll likely see more of them in small groups. Guardians aside, tanky warrior, engineer, elementalist & ranger builds will be nigh unkillable, at best you could hope for a draw. There will be a lot more draws in power v. power fights with these changes. Will likely revert to a condi bunker meta.

> > >

> > > Initial thoughts.

> >

> > So on that note I feel mesmer and thief will be the strongest fighters, followed by warrior (the class that can still hit like a truck with the least investment in power), followed by the professions with better condition options (mesmer, rev), followed by the "you can't actually kill me but I probably won't kill you" elementalist, ranger and engineer builds. I voted mesmer because in what I feel will be a condition meta mirage will be more threatening than whatever thieves can put out.

> >

> > I do feel despite the guardian nerfs that pocket firebrands will be even _more_ effective in 2-5 group skirmish scenarios than they are even now. But as this is about 1v1 scenarios... mesmer.

> >

> > ~ Kovu

>

> Why exactly do you think that warriors will still hit like trucks? Most of their dmg came from chaining together cc and then a burst, cc wont do any dmg, and the followed burst has less dmg too, while might gain was cut down aswell.

>

> So you wont see 9k bullscharge into 10k eviscerate anymore. It will be 30dmg bullscharge into maybe 6k eviscerate.

> Since many warrior skills are tied to cc and pretty much all the cc gets the 0.01 treatment warrior loses more than 30% dmg.

>

> So if a warrior goes into tankier stats, like you said, they will lose even more dmg.

> A tanky warrior might be nearly unkillable, but he wont do much else aswell, except maybe perma cc you and have a friend that does the dmg on your not moving body.

Fair points. I guess when I'm permastunned being wailed on I fail to appreciate just how much of that damage is coming from the control effects themselves in the current game. Drop warriors into the "you can't actually kill me but I probably won't kill you" category, then.

~ Kovu

I'm weirdly in agreement with the majority of posts in this thread. That doesn't usually happen. I stated my opinions on the likely upcoming state of roaming in another thread, and direct 1v1'ers are just the lawful cousins of roamers so I'll post my opinion from there, here.

> @"Kovu.7560" said:

> The power stat got a massive nerf effectively, due to all of the coefficients being gutted across the board for everyone. Meanwhile sustain got a smaller nerf. You'll find fewer roamers investing as heavily into power (as it means less) and more into condition damage and defensive stats (which'll counter some of that sustain loss caused by skill nerfs). Overall fights will get longer, uncoordinated/solo bursts will be less successful.

>

> Therefore my prediction is that the professions with the tools to stealth and kite will have a greater edge in combats and will see improved survival odds. Thieves, mesmers mostly. Pocket firebrands will be _even more_ impossible to kill because while (I assume, I haven't read the guardian notes) they haven't gotten much worse at what they do, the people trying to focus them down will have a more difficult time doing so -- so you'll likely see more of them in small groups. Guardians aside, tanky warrior, engineer, elementalist & ranger builds will be nigh unkillable, at best you could hope for a draw. There will be a lot more draws in power v. power fights with these changes. Will likely revert to a condi bunker meta.

>

> Initial thoughts.

So on that note I feel mesmer and thief will be the strongest fighters, followed by warrior (the class that can still hit like a truck with the least investment in power), followed by the professions with better condition options (mesmer, rev), followed by the "you can't actually kill me but I probably won't kill you" elementalist, ranger and engineer builds. I voted mesmer because in what I feel will be a condition meta mirage will be more threatening than whatever thieves can put out.

I do feel despite the guardian nerfs that pocket firebrands will be even _more_ effective in 2-5 group skirmish scenarios than they are even now. But as this is about 1v1 scenarios... mesmer.

~ Kovu

The power stat got a massive nerf effectively, due to all of the coefficients being gutted across the board for everyone. Meanwhile sustain got a smaller nerf. You'll find fewer roamers investing as heavily into power (as it means less) and more into condition damage and defensive stats (which'll counter some of that sustain loss caused by skill nerfs). Overall fights will get longer, uncoordinated/solo bursts will be less successful.

Therefore my prediction is that the professions with the tools to stealth and kite will have a greater edge in combats and will see improved survival odds. Thieves, mesmers mostly. Pocket firebrands will be _even more_ impossible to kill because while (I assume, I haven't read the guardian notes) they haven't gotten much worse at what they do, the people trying to focus them down will have a more difficult time doing so -- so you'll likely see more of them in small groups. Guardians aside, tanky warrior, engineer, elementalist & ranger builds will be nigh unkillable, at best you could hope for a draw. There will be a lot more draws in power v. power fights with these changes. Will likely revert to a condi bunker meta.

Initial thoughts.

~ Kovu

Huh. Well. That's something.

I could understand toning down the _power_ damage of _soulbeasts_, but the nerfs to druid, _condition_ ranger and weapon skills I've pretty much never seen in the gamemode (mainhand dagger?) make me raise an eyebrow.

... but then I started reading into the next profession down, thief, and realized the exact same thing is happening across the board.

This patch will basically force people into more defensive gear as power will have substantially less of an impact and people will want to bulk up as their sustain is taking an impact, too. Zerg fights will go on longer as spike damage will be more difficult to achieve, and it'll be more difficult for roamers to kill each other which gives an advantage to the higher-mobility-and-stealth-based hit-and-run specs, (not to mention condition builds).

All of those 0.01 damage coefficients make me lol.

~ Kovu

> @"Jayden Reese.9542" said:

> > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said:

> > > > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > > > Just how long I have to afk at the spawn of an outnumbered map whilst occasionally retaking the spawn camp to get my skirmish tickets for the week.

> > > > They really should create a more dynamic system akin to the old monthly achievements for each week in wvw rather than this pip thing.

> > > >

> > > > ~ Kovu

> > >

> > > Sure I welcome a change like that but you choosing to put in the least amount of effort and afking is more on you then the system

> >

> > Putting in the minimum effort for the maximum gain is both efficient and human nature, I usually spent that time playing a different game or watching livestreams. Pointing out a flaw in the system based on an example is hardly "more on me". Lots of people do it.

> >

> > ~ Kovu

>

> Your right it's not "more on you" it's "all on you". You choose to do it that way to get skirmish tickets i bet you don't need but to then complain it's deadly as your bored whether it's a flaw or 100's others do it as well. Putting in 12h on you server a week doing nothing sure doesn't help them but have fun.

By all means, sidestep valid concerns with the existing system and enjoy your ride on that nonexistent high horse. Aside from the hordes of afk-pip farmers, many people still "pip down", which is effectively the same thing albeit to a lesser degree.

@"bigo.9037" I'm not one of the people shouting "dead game", nor am I suggesting people deserve "better rewards for afk'ing". Just the opposite in fact. Calm down.

~ Kovu

edit- Did you guys actually read my initial post where I suggested that afk pip farming should maybe be replaced with something more proactive? Hating on me for working towards legendary armor for my ranger is like hating someone for roaming on condition mirage. Its downright broken and shouldn't be a thing, but I'm not going to get angry at someone for optimally utilizing the mechanics provided by the game. At most I'll be disappointed with the developers for those mechanics existing.

> @"Jayden Reese.9542" said:

> > @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > Just how long I have to afk at the spawn of an outnumbered map whilst occasionally retaking the spawn camp to get my skirmish tickets for the week.

> > They really should create a more dynamic system akin to the old monthly achievements for each week in wvw rather than this pip thing.

> >

> > ~ Kovu

>

> Sure I welcome a change like that but you choosing to put in the least amount of effort and afking is more on you then the system

Putting in the minimum effort for the maximum gain is both efficient and human nature, I usually spent that time playing a different game or watching livestreams. Pointing out a flaw in the system based on an example is hardly "more on me". Lots of people do it.

~ Kovu

Just how long I have to afk at the spawn of an outnumbered map whilst occasionally retaking the spawn camp to get my skirmish tickets for the week.

They really should create a more dynamic system akin to the old monthly achievements for each week in wvw rather than this pip thing.

~ Kovu

There's little surprise that "counter-pushing" is one of the best tactics -- we've been playing this game for the better part of the decade. It's because of the first of two comparable groups to push being at a disadvantage that there are so many standoffs. Its more prevalent than the early-HoT boonball meta because of the nerf to stability and extra corruptions being thrown around. The fact that so many boons _and_ corruptions exist now only exasperate a group's inability to handle a counter push in ways they were able to do during early HoT (and even core, by comparison to now).

You guys can get technical as to what is pirate shipping and what is "strategy" all you want, the short answer is that the group to push first is at an inherent disadvantage and until that changes we'll continue to see servers staring at each other waiting for one side to make the first move.

Of course there are exceptions. Some commanders have balls and try neat stuff like strategic stealthing, portals etc.

~ Kovu

> @"bigo.9037" said:

> Imo, DE is the only real badly designed class that has not enough counter play when it comes to roaming and support specs in general.

Condi mirage says hi.

Sustain holo and warrior say hi.

Boonbeast says hi.

Regen tempest says hi.

Why do people keep singling out thief specs like they're the only thing in the game that need to be looked at?

~ Kovu

* You gotta snag 'em early while your zerg is there and they're revealed on the map. Split up and give them nowhere to go. Same with mesmers, they can build to be nigh uncatchable too, though they have to put a bit more effort into it.

* Hope your group has rangers or other decent ranged options. Melee won't cut it against thieves who put that extra emphasis on stealth and mobility rather than damage. One ranger alone likely won't work as that thief can dance circles around them, but multiple rangers with longbows out can cover a decent area if positioned correctly. Bringing your own thieves to defend is also an option. Fight fire with fire, and all that.

* Call it out in chat, let the server decide how badly they want a thief roaming around their keep knowing what they can do.

That said, I do agree thief portal should work more similarly to other portal teleports (such as sand swell) and not function like a mini-mesmer portal. Not sure what Anet was thinking there. XP

~ Kovu

No rally, but if you are successfully revived all conditions on you are cleansed. Second drop into downstate is a death.

Oftentimes players that are revived from downstate are still in a position where they're immediately placed back into downstate, being loaded up with conditions whilst in downstate is a big contributing factor.

~ Kovu

Most professions have a one shot gimmick. What I'd like to see is a warriors-getting-one-shotted video.

~ Kovu

Took a 24k gunflame to my glass scourge a couple months back.

I was one very surprised Pikachu.

~ Kovu

Give all non-teleport mobility skills the ride the lightning treatment.

For non-targeted teleport/shadowstep skills, increase their cooldowns and tack something else non-mobility related (a stun break, for example) to justify the cooldown increase. Increase the initiative cost on initiative-based teleports that don't require a target (or aren't part of a combo that involve being close to the target _at some point_). I agree that if mobility-heavy specs wants to "keep pressure" on their target, they'll need to risk getting caught with their mobility on cooldown to do so.

~ Kovu

Warrior control & personal sustain is pretty cheesy. Its arguably the best _core_ profession. Don't delude yourselves. =<

I guess of the four listed Guardians are _generally_ the least cancerous by my subjective understanding of what qualifies as an non-cheese-but-legit build.

~ Kovu

1-4 decent players on literally any profession.

1 pocket firebrand.

~ Kovu

(edit- bonus points if you bring something that sh*ts barrier)

> @"anonymous.7812" said:

> You mentioned a server name, why wasn't this thread closed for match up, like the others?

Mods will be back next week to do their next round of "matchup thread" closers. =)

I watched a bit of the video, the only thing it taught me is that there's a reason I enjoy videos that have been edited to crop out all of the filler.

~ Kovu