babazhook.6805

Good link. I have a few differences. I am actually using pressure strike out of trickery and then absorption sigil on the p/d set. This is coupled with draining sigil. I then use Scorpion wire. This teamed with Tormenting runes as this coupled with the SA sustain adds nicely to ongoing heals. Scorpion wire allows for interrupts over and above the steal in p/d and this allows me to steal more boons then just bountiful theft overall with the sigil of absorption.

On an interrupt I steal 3 boons, apply two stacks torment, heal off the draining sigil and get the heal off the torment runes and with SOH+SW combo have 3 separate interrupt sources . When i swap to SB the poison field interrupt is very potent.

One thing I do not have down as well as you is that CnD. I tend to whiff mine more :)

If one focused on percent adds in WvW

You can go DE to get the 10 percent to Iron sight +10 for eagles runes when target under 50 and 20 for Executioner for the same. Obviously this predicated on health at under 50 percent .You can then add in force and night sigil for 15 more . Exposed weakness is in there as well but I would not consider it as more then say 4 percent.

As to signets I find I use the Signet of shadows more. This allows me the eagles runes while still not hitting my land speed too much while adding another blind source with added vuln/weakness. This gives a little boost to what you get from exposed weakness. (6 percent boost if no other conditions were on meaning 6 plus the 10 from vuln). What also nice is it can hit multiples so if you are up close and engaged against two or three the blind can give you an out.

That all said I have found you should invest more in perception/ferocity. It used to be you could do fine with a crit rate base 50 but I find more and more you need it at 90+ so that every shot a crit. You will lose too many matches if you rely on getting a big hit in and then having it not crit and the enemy can recover too fast. With blocks/invulns/dodges and the like a miss hit miss hit better see those two hits crit.

Here some other things to try.

Sigil of Night plus sigil of force on one weapon set.

Activating the Assassins signet price prior to backstab.

Doing this with lead attacks maxed and or other percent plus adds (your target if a DE , executioner and the like look for those percent adds they are still there)

Something like Runes of the eagle again with that 10 percent add to targets under 50 percent. Combined with executioner you can make some big hits on half health targets. I found those better suited then Scholars as Scholars loses a lot of damage if under 90 percent health.

I also find you have to push your crits to over 90 percent these days. You just can not afford to lose all that damage on your big attacks if you do not crit as you have fewer opportunities to attack in a glassy build. Each hit HAS to count.

> @"ASP.8093" said:

> > (And hitting a stealthed target doesn't show any sort of tell or give any sort of feedback that, yes, you've found them.)

>

> This should be fixed some in the UI (I propose just giving you damage floaters above your own character), but you can actually see you've hit someone from:

> 1. the combat log (ewww)

> 2. skill chain icons cycling

I have hit a number of thieves that have stealthed and immediately know I have hit them. You see a downed icon on your screen.

My own daredevil has a high crit chance so eagle runes a bit redundant. I use Wyrm runes. This in Conjunction with Sigils that add power (force and sigil of night with an alternate weapon for the day)

That said I have several builds and each use different runes. IE I still in leadership runes for boon duration on one and so on. Yes stealing boons is a thing with these.

I kind of thin the Wyrm runes with no quarter can work well here if you stay in staff a lot.

I tend to think CS a must in staff build It an underrated line. I much prefer it to DA. (oh and I like sigil of night..just get another staff for daytime)

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"knite.1542" said:

> > I think there will be nerfs soon. Probably will either do nothing or completely bury the entire traitline. Can't wait to see.

>

> The funny thing is, lots of people (usually the non thief players in a zerg) complain about stealth on thieves because it lets them +1 an unaware opponent, but guild groups in WvW are doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING. The SA traitline isn't even needed to maintain permanent stealth, you can do that just with leaps/blasts in smoke fields on a DA/Tr/DD build and have significantly better combat utility to boot. So unless they bottle up and change what smoke combo fields do FOR ALL CLASSES (so engi and ranger would be equally nerfed) and balance stealth around cooldowns, be it on utilities or traits, nothing is really going to change by nerfing SA.

Precisely. If they nerf SA to any great degree then other classes can very well have more access to stealth then the thief class which wrong at every level.

They should never have started handing out stealth like Candy to rival classes.

A question on your barrier. I noted that with daggerstorm used in a smoke screen you get a while lot of healing off the blinds that the combo generates in the field. This is added to the damage that CIS does on blind plus the regular damage of the daggerstorm itself. It adds up quick and especially when there a few enemy.

Have you noticed if the life siphon healing from Blind VIA CIS adds to your barrier when using Daggerstorm within a smoke screen?

Just an update as to how I am going to approach this base template with a build that is a little different.

The base is an s/p p/p build in wanderers gear with Leadership runes. This puts the boon duration at 96 percent if I stick with Bounty sigil.

DE/SA/ACro. I need one of DE or TR for the INI and I am trying DE first.

CIS a must as I am going to go heavy into blind. Assassins reward added. P/P works real nice with unload with that blind heal via CIS and assassins reward shooting out of a smoke screen field . Both weapons have spammable blinds and smoke fields. I go DE for the added stealth (Blinds) with shadowmeld (with leadership runes flushing three conditions). I have even taken Burst of shadows fro that added blind just to see if it can be effective (i just wish it was on a down rather then a kill) Given I take hidden thief over shadows embrace Condi cleanse will come off the runes + Acro PR with that added cleanse on the s/p port. HIS is the heal with more cleanses on a nicer 24 second cooldown . Two regen sources come via PR and HIS and with boon duration so high it full time.

GI removes one of four conditions on every attack if the player has 75% plus health. The build I was using had GI in an anti toxin build meaning this flushed an additional condition. GI goes directly after weakness , slow vuln and confusion removing one of this on said attack. When I used along with PR , PR removed bleeding , burning , poison confusion and torment. It was PR that added REGEN. Now s/X also removes a condition on the port so you can imagine how effective this can be removing conditions in an anti-toxin build and especially when that PR was on a lower cool down.

The Concentration add was also higher and then there swiftness on every dodge. Prior to the nerfs to the line my wanderers build was having boon durations of 98 percent.

I am going to tinker with the line using power build coupled with the SA line and will try a TR version along with a DE version.

The reason the one I tried with Acro was likely greater then yours is that it was a condition build using healing gear (shamans etc) so I suspect that the main reason I was getting much larger barriers. As to GI it does not proc any heals it there for condition cleanse. In that build I used it cleansed all the time and I was basically condition immune this simply because every attack I was over the threshold and vulns/slow/weakness/confusion could all be cleared.

I always had doubts it could ever work the same with power unless you wanted a guy that could never kill anything altho I might give it a shot one day and see what I can do (thinking sa/tr/acro with s/p and a non sancturary runes version as in no barrier))

It would be nice to see the numbers pop up on the side so as to get a feel for damage/heal and mitigation.

Eyeballing the screen I think I generally got a larger barrier when I used Acro and assasins reward.. Now you might want to try a version of that and I think especially in the wanderer build version. This can have near full time regen and oodles of swiftness along with added Condi clear (Pr+ GI works as GI sees you having lots of times you near full health). This might mean losing too much damage (unless in s/d perhaps with swindlers over GI).

Good videos though.

> @"Serind.1267" said:

> I don't shout :anguished: , but i swear to god, if i see 1 MORE THIEF...

Complain when you see them and complain when you don't! :)

> @"AikijinX.6258" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > @"AikijinX.6258" said:

> > >

> > > > @"alchemyst.2165" said:

> > > > Ive also been experimenting with SA while using staff, its definitely an interesting playstyle that I haven't really seen on thief. Might start using it more. Good gameplay man

> > >

> > > Thanks my man, just wait till you see what I've got cooking next ^^

> > >

> > > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > > > @"alchemyst.2165" said:

> > > > > Ive also been experimenting with SA while using staff, its definitely an interesting playstyle that I haven't really seen on thief. Might start using it more. Good gameplay man

> > > >

> > > > Staff is fun with SA and d/d or DE rifle+whatever feels at home with something generally like his first two builds. He's got a good stat spread for pressuring, the first one is like the perfect amount of health for most matchups to stay in there. That SA 2 or 3-2-1 feels like it's going to be nerfed some day for just making sense and not even being op.

> > >

> > > I hope it isn't nerfed, But honestly everything works in conjunction with each other, and everything is used and is necessary. Not one weapon skill, traitline, or utility is wasted, and not used as purpose. Everything has purpose in this build which is why I loved making this exponentially complimenting build. I don't think it's OP, I just think it's very complimentary of everything as a whole, which makes it a really good choice.

> > >

> > > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > I had used staff with SA on first release but not since the changes to SA. It might be worth looking at again.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Just wait until I put out my next build editor. I will accompany it with my next video. I've already ran tests and fought and recorded content with it, and it's super nice to use. Lets just say Weaver/ Scrapper/ and Scourges aren't the only ones that can use this game mechanic now. Vague enough for you haha? I probably already gave it away LOL, it's pretty obvious. Barrier.

> >

> > I can see using barrier. I had that in my deathblossom SOM build with assassins reward before they gutted acro.

>

> Yeah. it's definitely complimentary to my playstyle, but becoming reliant on it is a mindset that shouldn't ever be adopted by players. Use Stealths/ Blinds/ Evades/ Knockdowns for damage mitigation purposes, barrier just compliments what you're already doing.

The nice add from sanctuary is that vitality as well. Now I am not sure what you take in the daredevil line but marauders resilience on top of that and that barrier allows you to take a bit of damage when you can not prevent it any other way.

> @"noot.8641" said:

> Playing SA in general is so cheesy, i have no respect for SA thieves, it’s the ultimate carry traitline.

Nobody plays the game so as to garner your respect. It not relevant.

> @"AikijinX.6258" said:

>

> > @"alchemyst.2165" said:

> > Ive also been experimenting with SA while using staff, its definitely an interesting playstyle that I haven't really seen on thief. Might start using it more. Good gameplay man

>

> Thanks my man, just wait till you see what I've got cooking next ^^

>

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"alchemyst.2165" said:

> > > Ive also been experimenting with SA while using staff, its definitely an interesting playstyle that I haven't really seen on thief. Might start using it more. Good gameplay man

> >

> > Staff is fun with SA and d/d or DE rifle+whatever feels at home with something generally like his first two builds. He's got a good stat spread for pressuring, the first one is like the perfect amount of health for most matchups to stay in there. That SA 2 or 3-2-1 feels like it's going to be nerfed some day for just making sense and not even being op.

>

> I hope it isn't nerfed, But honestly everything works in conjunction with each other, and everything is used and is necessary. Not one weapon skill, traitline, or utility is wasted, and not used as purpose. Everything has purpose in this build which is why I loved making this exponentially complimenting build. I don't think it's OP, I just think it's very complimentary of everything as a whole, which makes it a really good choice.

>

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > I had used staff with SA on first release but not since the changes to SA. It might be worth looking at again.

> >

> >

>

> Just wait until I put out my next build editor. I will accompany it with my next video. I've already ran tests and fought and recorded content with it, and it's super nice to use. Lets just say Weaver/ Scrapper/ and Scourges aren't the only ones that can use this game mechanic now. Vague enough for you haha? I probably already gave it away LOL, it's pretty obvious. Barrier.

I can see using barrier. I had that in my deathblossom SOM build with assassins reward before they gutted acro. Ip with assassins reward might be interesting in staff. I imagine you could build quite a barrier.

I had used staff with SA on first release but not since the changes to SA. It might be worth looking at again.

I built an SOM deathblossom thief and had healing power so that the SOM got 193 per hit. This also used assassins reward . It takes a while to kill things and it was no where near as effective once DB INI went up but just for some perspective.

Each deathblossom against a single target was a 1425 heal. Against max targets (5) it a 3700 heal per DB.

I would not consider it in a power build at all IP is so much better here as it does not rely on the heal and a power build takes a bigger out to condition damage out with low power/crit then does a condition build with a low Condition damage stat. (for condition it about getting the stack count high)

Other then that I do not think an investment in heal worth it.

As much as I like Daredevil for that swiftness (I even like to use the Swiftness runes in my build ) , the break of Immobs chills and cripples just as important to mitigate. There just so much soft CC tossed around.

As a theme I went that route in WvW. You can make it work but it redundant. You are really not gaining enough to make it worthwhile. The thing if you in p/p you pretty well rely on unload for anything and when you use unload , you are just not going to have INI for the rifle part. You will find you stick to one weapon 90 percent of the time.

Where I found p/p working best in something like WvW is in hybrid builds where you can use venoms and conditions apps on the steal (along with deadly ambition) and then build might with the unload for harder ticks even as your unload hits hard. You do not stick in P/P as long switching over after INI built and using another weapon set and or getting off some stealth attacks in #1. (bleeds and it hits hard). Trying to integrate this approach with rifle as the other weapon is not optimal as too many traits you take for the one set, are not used in the second (ie Silent scope and deadly ambition). In a build where I want to use both weapons more or less equally I am always loathe to take traits that turn off when in one of the sets.

One of the best things about DE is the ONkill resetting the steal trigger. PP also makes for a very nice hybrid if you go grieving. That confusion stack alone on steal out of BA can add significant confusion ticks with the MIGHT add and combined with lead attacks. With the DE steal reset on kill you can use that Confusion right away on next target. This tends to work better then the SOH trait as you already have an interrupt via p4. Keep in mind as well in hybrid your steals tend allow you to apply more conditions at range while those might stacks pile on.

Even in a raw power build BA can be worthwhile just because of lead attacks and might. (the conditions from the steals just work as an added bonus ie bleeds off necro)

Mercy can work well here too. Do the steal with unloads for that confusion and unloaded power damage , mercy for INI reset and apply confusion again.

> @"Aihao.5824" said:

> just let it be an attack from both hands, dd weaponset has almost nothing for condi dmg, so let it be pure power set

There poison on one of the three attacks on the #1. There up to 15 bleeds on the #3 . (the best AOE we have really) . There cripple and torment on #4. There a vuln out of #5 albeit no condition build will use for that. You can trait #3 to also add 2 poison.

That is significant conditions. The way a Condition build works in thief is you generally trait for those conditions and can in fact turn any weapon set into a condition set.

You go through the weapon sets on any of the other professions Condition builds and it much the same. You are not seeing conditions applied on everyone of slots 1-5 on a good number of weapons in Condition sets. They boost the condition output via traits.

In open world PVE if you trait up SOM you can be all but unkillable. I have used it to solo flip towers and it very good at taking out camps or anywhere enemies cluster. Indeed if you design the condition build correctly you will find it can be advantageous to fight an enemy inside a camp they own rather then try and draw him out of it as those extra targets fuel heals and can get you a rally if you are downed.. It can work very well as a condition set. The problem with it as a condition set is just as with using it as power or hybrid, it lacks mobility and can be hard to engage an enemy with. Spec out DE or DD as an elite and you have that issue of limited ability to close.

So what is the issue here? Assume a thief hides out in a keep and then uses Portal to get friends in to flip that keep back to their control. So what?

Keeps and towers flip all the time. I have seen keeps flip to one side with only 4 or 5 people taking it and then it flipped back as soon as the Lord off cooldown by a group of 50. If you got a group of 10 0r 20 on a map and see the swords up on an objective you own , send your ten guys to that location and see whats going on. If it a thief that portaled in a small group kill them on the lords.

Should there be some hard and fast rule that no objective should be taken by subterfuge and that it only fair when it taken by a group that uses siege to get in and only by groups that do not use stealth?

If a thief manages to hide himself in a t3 objective and ports in a small group to try and flip it there generally plenty of time to get there and prevent that capture if you map aware. If it a t1 paper objective and you fail to get there in time flip it back.

While I generally play thief myself I also play other classes and professions and when I am on one of those and dealing with a thief I can not pin down due to my build , I just move on. Nothing says I must hang around until he dead. If it no fun trying to deal with that thief going in and out of stealth do something else. I will often fight people who fight just outside a portal into a keep or tower their side owns and everytime they get in trouble they dash inside. I do not feel any pressing need to hang around and kill that person. I move on.

I brought in my Condi warrior who had been sword/shield as main. I am now using sword sword and it a definite improvement. Sword off hand is in a much better place.

I also switched the heal to mending. There a significant increase in the ability to deal with Conditions.

For a power build the new brave stride looks interesting as does added damage to axe builds. I have yet to try that out.