zinkz.7045

> @"Zodi.8932" said:

> It’s left me feeling frustrated and made me realise that Gw2 PvP is just not on the same level as ESO or other mmos.

ESO has terrible PvP, even by the low standards of MMOs, not least because for some bizarre reason they went with 3 teams in a match rather than 2 teams, which basically renders battlegrounds busted on a fundamental level. ESO also has the magnificent achievement of despite being 2 years younger than GW2 of having even less players still playing Cyrodil than this game has in WvW, which tells you how bad that is.

And I hate to break it to you, but PvP in MMOs is basically a failure anyway. I guess as a weird niche for psychotic accountants EVE Online does its thing quite well, but the small team instanced PvP that laughably gets described as skilled or competitive, is an utter joke across the board compared to team based shooters, RTS, MOBAs, etc, which is why hardly anyone plays PvP in MMOs.

> This game mode does not really allow much individual skill to effect the outcome. It relies so heavily on a team playing well as a team together and rotating effectively.

Which is the reason their implementation of conquest is one of the few actual skilled PvP game modes in MMOs, because if you remove rotations, map awareness, the extra teamwork, etc then you are basically left with the combat and teamwork related to that and nothing else, which is not particularly skilled.

I realise the typical MMORPG player thinks the combat = skill, but the reality is the combat in MMORPGs (even "action" ones) is not hugely skilled, for example it does not require high levels of mechanical ability like an RTS, fighting game, decent shooter, etc. Then add balance is generally terrible because they are "balancing" for instanced PvP, mass scale PvP, dungeons, raids, etc, so cheese carries very, very hard (ESO is next level bad in this regard). And then perhaps most importantly of all, because the PvP playerbase is so small in these games you have players in the same match who would never face each other in a MOBA, shooter, RTS, etc, which clueless MMORPG players confuse with "skill".

If anything GW2 is one of the only MMOs that at least at some point had PvP with some level of meaningful skill / competition about it, ESO (or most MMOs) never has.

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"mzmz.6289" said:

> > everytime the fights end in less than 1min, doesnt matter how many ppl you have. imagine you r in the ts with crowded ppl, and you just get run over and die in a sec.

> Well, if another group runs over your group, then I know at least one group that doesn't share your "no game experience".

The only people who don't find that a "no game experience" are roleplayers, which granted is pretty much anyone or any guild still playing WvW regularly at this point. For anyone who even vaguely values decent PvP (i.e a PvP gamer), rolling over another group is still a "no game experience".

Which basically highlights why WvW (and RvR in general) is such a miserable failure. A "PvP" game that doesn't actually appeal to PvP gamers, as most of the time the PvP is boring, low skilled, one sided trash, because it lacks the mechanisms to produce competitive PvP on any regular basis.

> @"Novahh.7426" said:

> Lol ~~Rangers in ~~WvW

I've corrected that for you.

Seems we have a lot of new players here.

The combat, class skills/traits, mechanics, etc were originally designed around PvP, because Anet's original "vision" was PvP was the serious bit, whilst PvE / WvW were the casual fun (they even made a virtue of the game not having "toxic" raids). Which is why early in the game when the devs (Jon Peters, etc) used to do Twitch streams going through the balance patches, the vast majority of the changes were justified in relation to the PvP meta.

It is also why Sacrx a "famous" WvW player who was in alpha, made a notorious video about the neglect of WvW from Anet, which included how pre-launch WvW (and PvE) were basically ignored in regard to design / balance for combat and the only feedback the devs gave any consideration to was what Teldo & Co thought in PvP.

PvP remained the focus (in terms of combat, balance, etc) until they decided to add "serious" PvE to the game with HoT.

So in terms of combat (mechanics, class skills, traits, etc), GW2 was very much originally designed with PvP as the focus.

WvW has been dead for years (at least on EU), unless you are a roleplayer with very lower standards. It is basically a primetime only game (and even then it is mostly pretty pitiful), most matchups are so bad they are that level people used take the week off back when the game was healthier. Basically WvW is a flawed game mode, but for the first 4 or so years of the game there were enough tryhard players / guilds to paper over the issues and make it playable, the vast majority of those players left (or play once in a blue moon), the game mode was done.

PvP took longer to hit that level of decline, but it is also in a pitiful state, its only redemption is that it actually functions as a game mode and copes much better with a low pop and the various levels of casual to tryhard than WvW does.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> top tier guild groups ...

I'll have to build a time machine to go find top tier guild groups.

Now, if I want to watch mediocre guilds with plenty of players who got farmed by TA, LaG, etc back in the day, roleplay at being "top tier" against zergs that are largely not even mediocre (even for zergs), then 2020 is primetime.

> @"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:

> what i mean with "veterans" definitely are good players.

Depends on one's definition of "good", I mean I wouldn't describe players who got farmed by TA, LaG, etc as 'good', yet that describes the vast majority of "good" veterans.

When you have an 8 year old dead(ish) game mode, that is relatively low skilled and even by the low standards of WvW is competitively a joke, then mediocre players can appear as "good".

I went "roaming" on my deadeye the other day, the combo of stealth, mobility and ranged damage are the holy trinity of getting carried (for roaming) in an open world(ish) game mode, they along with a huge slice of spammable immobilise cheese carried me so, so hard.

The balance to those of course is conquest, where they are balanced out by you fighting over capture points, small maps, lots of LOS, only 5 players on each side, etc, but that of course is absent in WvW. I really wonder how bad one has to be at video games not to understand concepts like risk vs reward, but then again GW2 players get tryhard about blob vs blob, so I guess nothing should surprise me about the 2020 WvW playerbase.

But anyway after an hour or so of getting carried, I had to go play SC2 for some actual proper PvP.

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> > @"diomache.9246" said:

> > Why do people always think they are smarter than the majority or even the devs? Hint: You are not that's why the downstate will stay.

>

> maybe because most of this people are also better in any aspect of the game then the devs, have better understanding of max potential of class mechanics, better overall knowledge...

>

> downstate WILL stay for sure, because gw2 is a casual game that is designed around giving bad players help and hindering good players to use their full potential. thats also the reason this game never had a halfway serious e sport scene.

GW2 players who think they are "good" and have "understanding" of the game are mostly prime examples of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

These threads are a fine example of that, I mean imagine playing an "action" combat game that aims for you, in a game mode with zero balance and thinking downstate is the carry, its laughable how people are so clueless.

Do you know what actual good gamers are doing? Playing competitive PvP games, not a clown fiesta of low skilled, uncompetitve, trash tier "PvP" that is WvW.

> @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Samug.6512" said:

> > > The game is soooooo much faster with no downstate. No messing around with vapor form, no blinking thieves. Also no time wasted waiting for an enemy to finish you off, you can just wp instantly.

> > I agree.

> >

> > It *is* faster. And thats what makes any fight so... **hollow**. *No soul*. I fought this morning and its like running in zombie mode. Switch off the brain, kill and move on. Sometimes I just moved on before they even died, just condi burst when running past lol. Since the enemy is equally running like a pack of rabid dogs, its not like you can stop anyway. There is no satisfaction to actually killing players. Its like killing NPCs.

> >

> > Heres the typical scenario after getting someone down with downstate:

> > - *Whats my HP, am I good enough to perform a stomp?*

> > - *What class is he, what do I need to consider him being able to do?*

> > - *Is there enemy reinforcements incoming?*

> > - *Do I need stealth?*

> > - *Do I need stab?*

> > - *Do I need invouln?*

> > - *Should I cleave him?*

> > - *Do I need to CC ressers?*

> > - *Is it too risky position to do anything, should I withdraw?*

> > - *Do I need to tell my squadmates to suppress him while I stomp?*

> > - *Do I need to tell my squadmates they have to stomp/cleave because I cant?*

> > Etc

> >

> > Heres the typical scenario after getting someone down without downstate:

> > - *He ded*

> >

> >

>

> downstate is a PvE mechanic...

Not really, it was a feature for an MMORPG that did not have actual healers and with obnoxious low skill damage application (this game carries its players by aiming for them in a supposed "action" combat game).

In PvP (which is what the combat in this game was designed around) it actually raised the relatively mediocre skill cap of the combat in this game by adding extra teamwork, decision making, awareness, etc, which is why the handful of PvP teams that were actually good in this game tended to manage downstate better than the other PvP teams, it favours better players.

Beyond that for PvP it was there for their "e-sports" as it created moments of excitement / drama when someone was downed in a teamfight, though on the other hand it was normally a dull mechanic when it came to a 1v1 on a side node. In fact it became something of a meme, in that the GW2 combat was such a dull spammy mess to watch / commentate on that at times it seemed the only drama in a match or real calls the casters made were in relation to downstate.

Imagine playing WvW, the most uncompetitive, braindead, carebear PvP out there and going on about carebears and "fight" servers...

Redacted .

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> It's very clear WvW was designed and balanced before ascended gear...

Thanks for the laugh. Virtually everything around combat in this game was originally designed around PvP, WvW was an afterthought, a project some of the devs wanted to do, Anet's orignial view was that PvP and their "e-sport" were the serious bit, whilst PvE & WvW were the casual bit. As for balance, WvW gets more balance attention these days than it ever did pre-HoT when they balanced the game nearly entirely around PvP, bar the odd rare change for the casual modes. Which was most ably demonstrated back when the devs (Jon Peters, Jon Sharp, etc) used to do Twitch streams after balance patches going through the changes and you'd be lucky if WvW or PvE got mentioned more than once.

And also why "famous" WvW player Sacrx made a less than complimentary video about Alpha and how PvE/WvW were basically ignored as far as combat balance/design went and everything was about what Team Paradigm, etc thought in sPvP.

WvW never has been and never will be even remotely balanced, you can't balance a game mode like that, stats are the least of its issues.

> @"Azreell.1568" said:

> Same ole bs from Anet.

>

> OP one class - nerf another to uselessness rinse , repeat.

Really? You are playing a game mode where class balance barely changes in any meaningful sense, which is one of the reasons it is dead.

A game mode where Guardian has been an absolute irreplaceable requirement for large scale the entire game, where necro has been meta the entire game, where ranger has never had a real spot in a zerg the entire game, where it took 6(?) years before engy had a spot in a zerg, hammer rev basically meta ever since they added it, etc.

When it comes to class balance, meaningful changes in the meta, WvW is one of the most stagnant, dullest PvP games I have ever played, if they actually nerfed classes to uselessness, things would actually change more than once in an ice age.

> @"Gynok.1756" said:

> The downed state is a pve feature and has always been a nuisance in all pvp formats.

Not really, it was a feature for an MMORPG that did not have actual healers and with obnoxious low skill damage application (this game carries its players by aiming for them in a supposed "action" combat game).

In PvP it actually raised the relatively low skill cap of the combat in this game by adding extra teamwork, decision making, awareness, etc, which is why the handful of PvP teams that were actually good in this game tended to manage downstate better than the other PvP teams, it favours better players.

Beyond that for PvP it was there for their "e-sports" as it created moments of excitement / drama when someone was downed in a teamfight, though on the other hand it was normally a dull mechanic when it came to a 1v1 on a side node. In fact it became something of a meme, in that the GW2 combat was such a dull spammy mess to watch / commentate on that at times it seemed the only drama in a match or real calls the casters made were in relation to downstate.

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> In WvW group play, to not be a living meme...

That is known as an oxymoron.

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > > @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> > >

> > > Zinkz, the Caysadia of player-trolling B)

> >

> > Just telling the truth.

> >

> I know you are, it is just funny to me that you feel a need to constantly point that out :3 .

Constantly? I've made 9 posts in total on the forum this year (well 10 now), given how often one or another WvW role player bangs on about skill or competitiveness, I think I am being quite restrained these days. :)

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > > @"Lalary.3561" said:

> > > > @"Dayra.7405" said:

> > > > Whenever something new came, be it a new map, gliding, mounts or whatever the complaints where much louder then the Applaus. It simply doesn’t make sense to put effort into wvw.

> > >

> > > Then maybe Anet should actually listen to real dedicated WvW players next time rather than trying to attract noncompetive players and turn WvW maps into non-stop happy k-train zones with no "gankers" on horizon.

> >

> > WvW players aren't competitive. Which is why they are playing WvW, something that as a skilled, competitive PvP game mode is an absolute joke.

>

> Zinkz, the Caysadia of player-trolling B)

Just telling the truth.

It is a game mode that has:

- tryhards vs casuals

- players with thousands of hours vs those with a hundred

- 18 years old vs 60 year olds

- does not even have the same number of people on each team

It is probably the least competitive PvP I've ever seen, as is the playerbase.

Twelve year old school kids at lunch break who choose two captains to alternate picks for teams for football and then switch players mid match if one team is winning too easily, demonstrate far more competitiveness than the laughable WvW playerbase. (who for the most part do the opposite, showing their true colours)

You want to see the reaction of an actual competitive PvP gamer to WvW, then go find Helseth's stream where he goes into WvW after they added the ability to queue for PvP from there. He goes to EB, ends up at a duelling spot, 1v1s a warrior, wins, then says something along the lines of "this is stupid I could just kite him", then promptly goes back to PvP.

The most competitive thing in WvW is seeing who has the highest level of Dunning-Kruger.

Which incidentally is a big reason it failed, decent PvP requires a certain level of competitiveness, WvW lacks the mechanisms to produce that, so most of the time you get trash tier PvP, that isn't much fun to anyone who isn't, well...

> @"Lalary.3561" said:

> > @"Dayra.7405" said:

> > Whenever something new came, be it a new map, gliding, mounts or whatever the complaints where much louder then the Applaus. It simply doesn’t make sense to put effort into wvw.

>

> Then maybe Anet should actually listen to real dedicated WvW players next time rather than trying to attract noncompetive players and turn WvW maps into non-stop happy k-train zones with no "gankers" on horizon.

WvW players aren't competitive. Which is why they are playing WvW, something that as a skilled, competitive PvP game mode is an absolute joke.

> @"Bubbaworks.6023" said:

> - Making entire classes irrelevant (Scrapper stealth taking over the role mesmer has had for years)

I am sure engy mains who spent around 6 years being irrelevant for zergs/non-GvG guilds (and GvG was barely a role) will be in tears over the predicament of mesmers and how a class lacking a role / relevance is suddenly an issue that never existed before elites... oh, wait...

This sort of thing is exactly why I only play this game once in a blue moon.

The basis for good, skilled, even fun PvP is competitive PvP, now obviously PvE players (like some in here) don't really care whether the PvP is trash tier, but when I play, especially when I take the effort to group up I want decent PvP, not boring faceroll against solo players, lower MMR players, etc.

Which is of course why most of us (PvP gamers) take the option of getting our PvP in dedicated PvP games with a decent population and decent matchmaking systems, and why PvP continues to fail in MMORPGs.

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> Making me fight when I only want to get nestled into the safety of my omniblob is griefing. This game is about me and my 79 servermates chasing you solo not me fighting you where you have a chance of not losing.

No, you are supposed to fight me on my roaming build when I have no chance of losing against your blob build. That is skilled, competitive PvP, packed with fun engaging gameplay.

It is even more skilled and competitive if I have played PvP/WvW for years and you haven't.

And we can further up just how skilled I am in our 1v1, if I spend most of my time doing 1v1/smallscale and you spend most of yours doing large scale.

Oh and ideally if you are over 70 years old, then that really helps me to feel extra skilled in this highly skilled, top quality PvP that is WvW.

> @"Warlord.9074" said:

> Most of the players that frequent these forums understand that a once every 3 months balance patch is not acceptable for any competitive game.

Most of the players who frequent this forum have no interest in a competitive game, which is why they are still playing WvW, which as a skilled, competitive PvP game is an absolute joke.

Same goes for balance, the notion that you can have any sort of meaningful balance in a game mode like WvW is laughable to anyone who isn't blinded by addiction to WvW. Let alone when you add that it's one of three modes (and last in line out of those), that the game's combat was designed around 5v5 conquest, etc.

WvW gets the amount of attention it deserves in regard to balance, which is very little.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> I miss the days before warclaw. There was a feeling of dread when stepping out of ur camp that made it exciting in a way. Now just mount up and dodge odd spear and I'm good for dailies hunting with little worry, said the pve player.

There might have been 'dread' if one stepped out on a necromancer, but if one stepped out on thief (and to varying extents Mesmer, Ranger, Warrior, etc) there was very little 'dread', just a lack of risk vs reward, which PvE players who wanted to pretend "PvP" with little worry, loved.

I think you've confused 'good' with 'tryhard'.