zinkz.7045

> @NotASmurf.1725 said:

> > @troops.8276 said:

> > > @choovanski.5462 said:

> > > it always amused me that we went from people complaining about losing to premades to people complaining about losing because of bad teammates.

> > >

> > > I mean I knew it would happen, but it doesn't make it any less funny.

> > >

> > > solo queue heroes w no social skills will cry regardless of what actually happens. they will always want to blame their losses on something lol. why anet thought they could placate them, I will never know.

> >

> > Is facing a premade as a pug generally a satisfying experience?

> >

> > Is being mismatched into an under performing team generally a satisfying experience?

> >

> > Would Anet make enough money to keep the servers open without us casuals?

> >

> >

> >

>

> That's nothing more than a scapegoat. In later seasons Anet heavily stacked the odds against premades, if a 5 man team faced a duo and trio then those would be several hundred ratings above the former. It was basically a handicap to play as a premade.

>

> Still, this duo/solo restriction killed the community. That's when everything went to kitten, streamers left, teams disbanded, and people started caring less and less about their ranks. Killing teams killed the competitive aspect of PvP.

>

> Banishing 5mans to unranked is ridiculous, it shoul've been the other way around. It's not fun to fight a guild team of 5 as new players (and in unranked full solo can face a full premade, in ranked that was not the case).

Not really, the PvP playerbase died long ago when most of the players who came to the game for PvP left within 18 months, the laughable thing you call the "PvP community" was the dregs left over, the few teams / streamers were only there for the money, once the money dried up, then most left. (which is why they have been bossting the numbers in PvP by bribing PvE players with shiny things for a long time)

PvP has continued to decline as firstly that is normal for a 5 year old MMORPG (in case you missed it the genre is not exactly booming) and secondly Anet powercreeped the classes/combat and screwed PvP over for PvE (which to be fair was the reverse for 3 years) to the detriment of the gameplay in PvP.

As for pre-mades vs non-pre-mades, it entirely depends on what level it was, low ranked then pre-mades would often get farmed because the pre-mades were bad / PvE players having a bit of fun, and they got put up against higher ranked actual PvP players who could simply outplay their low level of skill, even with the advantages of being in a team, but then look at the other end when you had a pre-made of good players, then they would just beat the vast majority of non-premades.

Which is why LoL brought back solo queue, because at higher MMR dynamic queing failed miserably, and that is in a game with 65 million players, hard roles, better communication for non-pre-mades and far stricter matchmaking.

Yes banishing 5 mans to unranked is ridiculous, but then so is putting pre-mades vs solo teams, but they can't add a 5 man queue, because contrary to the desluions of this thread there simply is not the demand for it, so the AT are a better way to handle that.

> @choovanski.5462 said:

> solo queue heroes w no social skills will cry regardless of what actually happens. they will always want to blame their losses on something lol. why anet thought they could placate them, I will never know.

Doesn't really have anything to do with social skills, more to do with time and inclination, after all unemployed basement dwellers incapable of forming real relationships still living with their parents still manage to team up in video games, where as a guy with a career, wife, kids, etc can find the bother of forming a team a pain if their playing time often consists of just fitting a couple of games in here and there, because they actually have this thing called a life.

> @Ragnarox.9601 said:

> firebrand is not that good, scourge and spellbreakers ruin wvw for solo /group content.

LOL, Guardian has been broken OP since day 1 for large scale, you have 9 classes in the game, yet if you take a squad of 50 then most commanders basically want 40% of those to be guard (or now firebrand), and these days even by the laughable standards of WvW "balance" we have hit a new low in that you only need two other classes Scourge and a handful of spellbreakers.

Just one of the reasons the game mode is a joke, played primarily by PvE players who basically don't give a toss about meaningful / good PvP gameplay (and that includes most wvw guilds who are too delusional to realise what they are).

Maybe find a better guild, I mean raids in GW2 are a joke, people do them with 10 of one class, groups of 4-6, a thief even soloed a couple of bosses, this game is not Wildstar where eeking out every 0,1 % of DPS matters, it probably has the easiest raids in any MMORPG, hence they can be completed by mediocre players with any reasonable composition, you don't need the "perfect" comp for GW2 raids.

So the problem is player made, go find a guild with players in that aren't try-harding over over content that does not require it and are more flexible in regard to what classes people can bring along to a raid.

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> + helping out the classes that have SERIOUS mobility issues.

It's called balance, if someone makes a build with lots of mobility then outside of thief that comes at a cost, likewise if someone makes a build with low mobility then that is made up for by being stronger in other ways, so basically you want to bypass that basic level of balance, maybe stick to PvE if you want to roleplay with your mount.

> @Conncept.7638 said:

> > @FogLeg.9354 said:

> > Game is not designed for WvW, so classes will never be balance there.

>

> Game isn't really designed for any PvP, nor are MMOs in general, which is the reason why I tell people: if you want a PvP game, go find a PvP game, there are so many you're bound to satisfy your competitive itch with one of them.

>

> It just isn't possible to satisfy both a PvE and PvP environment with the same gameplay, and not just because of balance issues from individual abilities, but entire mechanics and gameplay systems having wildly different efficacy levels and uses. And in my opinion GW2 is one of the worst in the latter area. Look at the games defense system, bunkers have ruled PvP with an iron fist since launch, while every defensive stat has been worthless in nearly all PvE content because of the dodge system.

Erm, the class / combat mechanics of this game were designed around PvP & their "e-sport", they then went on to balance around that to virtually the complete exclusion of everything else for 3 years, it was when they decided to add PvE raids with HoT they changed mechanics / started to consider PvE balance in addition.

WvW on the other hand has never got more than the odd crumb thrown its way when it came to balance or class design.

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> This is not unique to GW2 by the way.

Not unique, but I'd say it is certainly more extreme in GW2 than many MMORPGs because you have less defined roles in this game, classes are very broad and this game was basically designed around PvP in terms of combat mechanics.

For example take healing, in a lot of MMOs I've played you have two heal classes where for example one is more single target and one is more AOE (or alternatively or in addition to, where one is HoT and one is more burst heals / shields), so all that has to be done to ensure both classes are required for raids is put a mixture of damage.

Then you have DPS, in most games they design raids that require a mixture of melee & ranged DPS, which again means more classes, in GW2 ranged DPS is for the most part not a thing, because a lot of buffs in GW2 require close proximity, plus the game was designed around PvP so a lot of range options are weak in terms of DPS.

Then you have lack of defined roles, in some MMOs I've played you have a specific buffer class, but then also a debuffer/CC class, etc.

So whilst the problem of "desire for maximum efficiency" exists in every MMORPG, it is especially bad in terms of class diversity in GW2.

And lastly whilst at times the "desire for maximum efficiency" may be reasonable, much of the time in games the actual problem is abject stupidity when people are for example waiting for their "perfect" comp for a dungeon or something that would take 14 mins with a non perfect comp instead of 11 mins.

It has been like this for 5 years, so the chances of it getting fixed now are pretty slim, you obviously never played longbow ranger, GS mesmer, rifle engi, etc...

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> Issue is pvp holds holosmith back because holosmith burst is really strong, and if they don't split balance a buff to holosmith to be only PvE, the pvp crybabies will be back in force.

As opposed to the PvE 'crybabies' who crying about the DPS in a game mode where even the "hardest" content is so easy it can be completed with nearly any sane composition or even by groups of 4-6 or some even by a solo thief before they nerfed it in certain cases.

> @Dusk.4708 said:

> > @Rhomulos.2089 said:

> > Tbh I'd be happy if it just healed 15% more, was instant cast, but heal over time instead. Nothing fancy required.

>

> This too would work I like it

It might work in PvE (but then really what doesn't), but guess what there are two other game modes and Holosmith is pretty glass cannon / low sustain in design which makes the idea of changing its main heal from burst to heal over time as terrible.

> @Aury.1367 said:

> Not every class/spec is designed for blobbing. Instead of wanting Anet to adjust the class from bottom to top, why not make a guard/rev/necro/ele/war for WvW?

No class was designed for blobbing, the outlook at the start of this game was PvP was the serious bit whilst WvW/PvE were just casual fun, hence the combat / class mechanics in this game were built around PvP (go find Sacrx video banging on about how it was all about what Teldo & Co thought in alpha, whilst WvW/PvE players were basically ignored in regard to class balance).

Then for 3 years the game was virtually entirely balanced around PvP "e-sports", it was only with the run up to add PvE raids with HoT they started meaningfully balancing for that, WvW on the other hand merely gets the odd crumb thrown in its direction, so there is no "design" for WvW classes, it is simply the fallout from whatever decisions they make for PvP (and now PvE raids).

> @"Sethanon Stormrage.6721" said:

> > @ThomasC.1056 said:

> >snip

>

> You are being a tad dramatic there really.

> No one is asking anet to force you into playing something you don't want. What we are asking for is balance. You state it in your last line. All we want is diversity and the ability to play multiple styles.

Now I am not aiming this at you personally, but you did claim "we", the above is total BS, where were the complaints when you had a total power meta and the extent of condi was warriors using condi food to up their immobilize time, where were the complaints over build/class diversity for most of the game when half the classes were subpar (and still are) whilst guards for example have always been vastly overrepesentated, the answer to that is largely nowhere.

And the reason for that is WvW baddies do not give a flying toss about diversity or multiple styles, they just want to run round in a melee ball and play their style, and "diversity" only becomes an issue if their style becomes effected.

> While some people exaggerate the amount of people who quit the game because of the current meta.

In the grand scheme of things it is nearly irrelevant, most of the big guilds/alliances (at least on EU) quit this game in the first 2 years, back when we had metas you would like (no real diversity of course but I guess you didn't complain then), which is why you are playing a gamemode that has basically had server merges, and even with 5-8 servers in a matchup has less activity than the old gold tier matchups had with just 3 servers (at least on EU).

> The game mode has alot of potential. Even to an esport level in terms of gvg. If only anet put more effort into it.

The game mode has zero potential, it is five years old, fundamentally as an RvR mode it is badly flawed and it is pretty clear Anet have dumped ideas of a meaningful overhaul so will only ever tiinker around the edges.

As for "GvG" being a e-sport level, please, stop making me laugh, the sPvP in this game had no chance as an e-sport even when they spent 3 years balancing around it, because the skill level in this game is mediocre at best (and that was with the added skill cap of conquest the combat alone is not even mediocre skill wise), visually PvP was considered terrible to view as an "e-sport", GvG just takes that and makes it ten times worse.

> @Nutshel.7264 said:

> > @Amante.8109 said:

> > If Ele is a "forgotten" class, I'd hate to see what that makes Thief, Ranger, and Necro.

>

> This is the pvp forum, not pve

Doesn't really matter, even if you put aside that over PvE & WvW ele has been by far one of the favoured classes in this game and just look at PvP then the same still applies, for the majority of this game ele has been meta and not only meta but been exceptionally strong, at times to a ridiculous level, such as cele ele for a very long time, where a tourney was even won with 4 eles and a thief, no other class has ever come near that outside of maybe how broken s/d thief was at one point.

The only real time ele was shitty in PvP was for a few months prior to the cele change, that is it, so it is never experienced what say ranger has which was well over a year out of the meta between spirit ranger getting nerfed and HoT being released. Now not everyone may like the meta builds ele has, but that goes for most classes, you think core engy stacks up against the same old HoT scrapper build that has been engy meta for the entirety of HoT or that every engy player loves playing that?

This thread is Just the typical ele special snowflake outlook, completely oblivious to the rest of the game and that overall ele has had it pretty good.

> @Oglaf.1074 said:

> > @zinkz.7045 said:

> > > @Oglaf.1074 said:

> > > We both know that you're very much forced to play in a particular way.

> > >

> > > You're never going to see Spellbreakers in raids.

> >

> > You mean the game with raids so easy that you've had 10 mans made of a single class complete them, groups of 4 - 6 have managed to beat most of the "10 man" raid bosses and where a thief soloed two of the bosses...

> >

> > This isn't Wildstar, you aren't forced into anything to complete the raids in this game, find a guild where people aren't suffering from the delusion that the joke that is GW2 raids is akin to playing DOTA 2 at The International, and you'll be able to play raids on nearly anything you so wish.

>

> That's bull-kitten and you know it. The fact that a few people have managed to do that does not in any way invalidate the meta-driven nature of raids in the game at the moment. Heck, I constantly see Necros being booted purely for the sake of being Necros in raids. Constantly. I'd suspect the same would happen if a raid Commander saw a Warrior lugging dual-Daggers with them.

No it's the truth, raids are not difficult in this game and can be completed with all sorts of compositions, so if you want to play something different, find a guild that accommodates that.

> @Oglaf.1074 said:

> We both know that you're very much forced to play in a particular way.

>

> You're never going to see Spellbreakers in raids.

You mean the game with raids so easy that you've had 10 mans made of a single class complete them, groups of 4 - 6 have managed to beat most of the "10 man" raid bosses and where a thief soloed two of the bosses...

This isn't Wildstar, you aren't forced into anything to complete the raids in this game, find a guild where people aren't suffering from the delusion that the joke that is GW2 raids is akin to playing DOTA 2 at The International, and you'll be able to play raids on nearly anything you so wish.

Passive traits as a concept are fine in a game like this, sure there are too many now, but the design of certain classes means they need at least some passive traits (e.g - engy has too much to cram into 3 utility slots whilst trying to make up for damage, movement, condi clear, etc other classes get from two weapon slots so needs options for passive stun breaks).

And as for playing the game for you, then why are you even playing a game with tab targeting which is the biggest "playing the game for you" in this game, and makes things that should be skillful like interupts absolutely faceroll (see - long range, instant, tab-targeted traited steal for prime example of this)

> @Jekkt.6045 said:

> a build of a lot of controversity was pretty much gutted this patch, the condi daredevil, getting its main sustain damage nerfed by 50%.

> wether people think the build was strong or not is irrelevant, that's not the point of my thread here, but the way it was nerfed.

>

> shaving the power a bit would have been the right approach, like turning the torment on impaling lotus to a 2nd bleeding stack, removing one "cover condition" to ease cleansing; stuff like that. but by simply destroying this build you killed build diversity too which results in d/p being the undisputed #1 thief build for pvp.

>

> seems like the balance team hasn't learned anything in the past 5 years.

>

> happy expansion everyone.

Yet apparently you haven't learnt the lesson that balance in this game (and MMORPGs full stop) will always be a badly done joke...

> @ugrakarma.9416 said:

> > @MarkoNS.3261 said:

> > as far as i know 5 people premade was removed because people constantly complained they were getting stomped by premade teams vs pugs 1 v 1 i dont think was ever a thing.

>

> neither me, i come from pvp from other games, pre-mades wasnt a issue. in these other games, those want improve search for their premades if they feel its a issue.

Well if you are referring to MMOs, then frankly they are all a joke in terms of PvP, if you mean other genres like MOBAs, FPS, etc, then well they generally do matchmaking much better for all sorts of reasons - much bigger playerbase, much stricter matchmaking, games that have roles like MOBAs can also matchmake better in that respect , they do a much better job of communication for non (or smaller) pre-mades and so on.

And even then, when LoL, a game with 65 million players dropped solo queue they brought it back because "dynamic" queuing was failing miserably at higher MMR levels.

The reality is most players in PvP games play solo or duo most of the time, which is why every game caters to that, GW2 just did a really poor job much of the game, albeit with a small playerbase, and now the playerbase is so small they are in the catch 22 situation, where they don't even have enough players to facilitate the better solutions, so they will just lose more players...

> @joneirikb.7506 said:

> > @zinkz.7045 said:

> > > @QuantumCat.9051 said:

> > > Great way to destroy the community in WvW and turn it into a EotM Blobfest. There are other alternatives that can provide more even matches.

> >

> > WvW server "community" is a joke, most players have switched servers multiple times and only have "community" with a guild not a server and that is without going into how linking has already wrecked what community there was a lot of servers, you don't need servers for a "community", look at EVE Online that has a far stronger, deeper community than the very shallow one that exists in GW2.

> >

> >

>

> It's a joke... for some. For others, the sole reason they play.

>

> We're humans, and all humans are different, and play for different reasons. It serves no ones purpose to make blanket statements over what the "community" wants, either direction.

>

> The simple fact is that some players care for and plays for server community, others plays for other communities (guild, friends etc), others plays for themselves etc.

You missed the point, I wasn't saying that there aren't players who value a server community, or the notion of one is a joke, I was saying it was a joke in regard that it is only a minority of people that have stuck to a server, the reality is most of the playerbase move with their guild for fights, bandwagon to wherever, leave a server not long after it starts to struggles, etc, so in terms of the importance to the overall playerbase it is a joke, even if you personally value it.

> @QuantumCat.9051 said:

> Great way to destroy the community in WvW and turn it into a EotM Blobfest. There are other alternatives that can provide more even matches.

WvW server "community" is a joke, most players have switched servers multiple times and only have "community" with a guild not a server and that is without going into how linking has already wrecked what community there was a lot of servers, you don't need servers for a "community", look at EVE Online that has a far stronger, deeper community than the very shallow one that exists in GW2.

> @HARDOFREADING.7298 said:

> There are so many ridiculously OP builds right now it is comical.

Erm, that has always been the case, WvW has always been a joke in terms of balance (and frankly pretty much everything else).

Consider large scale and a 50 man zerg/squad, the game has 9 classes, yet for pretty much the entirety of the game 40% of those 50 spaces have been taken up by guardian, which is ridiculous, most broken OP class in the game for large scale, and it is laughable in 5 years that has not changed, which should tell you all you need to know about how much balance consideration is given to the joke that is WvW, just one of the reasons the game mode has died off. (even after being the desperate attempt to prop it up with PvE players being bribed with shiny things).