Elementalist Owner.7802

This sucks

Right now there is more build diversity in large scale WvW fights than ever before, so idk why you're complaining about balance now. Weavers and revs can easily out-DPS burn guards, and the fights have been very enjoyable -- this is coming from someone who plays support spellbreaker, dps spellbreaker, power rev, power scourge, support scrapper, and support firebrand.Even ranger has a place in the meta with the very strong immob build that people are running these days. The real balance issues are now in sPvP and small scale fights.

The biggest problem facing WvW is the lack of population. They need to do something big to bring people back to the game.

Open some full servers smh

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> > > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > > @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> > > > Stealth as a mechanic is not the problem - THIEF is the problem. They have access to nearly permanent stealth, a stupid amount of evade frames, godlike mobility, burst damage, daze, and sustain. So all thieves do is burst out of stealth, use their infinite evade frames and mobility to avoid all counter pressure, restealth, heal up, and repeat. It is the most braindead, broken spec in the game right now (perhaps along with condi rev, but thats only in spvp). Don't punish all stealth users for what is ENTIRELY a thief problem.

> > >

> > > "braindead class" is always being thrown around by people unable to learn to counter a specific spec. Where did the De touch you, and did it hurt ?

> > > People still claiming theres "nO cOunTeR tO sTeAlTH" L2p or uninstall,but don't try give "suggestions" on how to nerf a spec youve never even played.

> >

> > What is the counter to the playstyle that I just described? And what gave you the impression that I was talking about deadeye? I'm clearly referring to daredevil or why else would I mention infinite evade frames and mobility?

> >

> > I've never played the WvW variant of d/p thief, but I could hop on right now with no experience and I am confident that you would never be able to kill me 1v1. We could do it whenever you want so go ahead and add me. Daredevil is not designed for 1v1, it is designed to +1 fights in conquest and decap nodes. In WvW roaming they use this mobility to break combat and reengage while in stealth. Good luck trying to kill anyone who is able to break combat whenever you pressure them. I'll be waiting.

>

> U serious? Look at ur avatar,are u new. I've been playing shiro glint recently and very casually as I can only stand the games pvp in small bursts but glints reveal has been very very effective counter vs stealth. When I'm on spellbreaker magebane works well as does sick em when I'm on soulbeast. Those are just the three classes I play most and I'm sure others have their counters to stealth as well. U know u can dragon breath the smoke fields the thiefs hs in for stealth right or cleave them,u know the small aoe area their using to stack the stealth no, cuz u can see it and if u interrupt them they'll either be forced into low duration stealth being in revealed shortly after or they'll need to use further resources to maintain stealth. Man this game has so many carry mechanics that it's really starting to effect the playerbase expectations on gameplay. GL in future everyone lol.

You keep focusing on stealth for some reason when in my post I explicitly said that *stealth is not the problem*. Yes, you can reveal on or pressure the smoke field, but you can't stop the thief from running 2000 units away in the blink of an eye, then stacking stealth while you're too far away to do anything about it.

Allow me to educate you on the real counter to thief and why it does not exist anymore. Thief has always had strong stealth, evasion, mobility, and non-telegraphed spike damage. So why was this never an issue before? Because the tradeoff was how easily thieves were punished. Catch a thief with a good burst or cc chain between evade frames, and it was almost guaranteed death for the thief. Thief is traditionally a high risk/high reward class.

Fast forward to post-February balance patch, and now everything hits like a wet noodle. Thieves can afford to get hit with bursts, cc, and whatever else you throw at them, without being punished nearly as hard for it. So that becomes a problem when thieves can now eat your burst, run 2000 units away, heal up, and repeat like nothing ever happened.

Btw, I am not suggesting there should be nerfs to thief. I've accepted the fact that this game is not being balanced for roaming. It is balanced for conquest and large scale fights, and in both of those game modes, thief is not a problem.

Nevermind, the problem was on my end. Delete this thread please :)

Mesmer is extremely weak right now. Make Chrono great again!

Stealth as a mechanic is not the problem - THIEF is the problem. They have access to nearly permanent stealth, a stupid amount of evade frames, godlike mobility, burst damage, daze, and sustain. So all thieves do is burst out of stealth, use their infinite evade frames and mobility to avoid all counter pressure, restealth, heal up, and repeat. It is the most braindead, broken spec in the game right now (perhaps along with condi rev, but thats only in spvp). Don't punish all stealth users for what is ENTIRELY a thief problem.

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> You probably left before it ported you out.

Nope, I stayed until it ported me to the bonus cart, and even stayed there until it ported me to the hub.

I completed all three World 1 zones in tribulation mode in SAB, and only the first two zones triggered the achievement. For some reason the third zone is not showing as completed even though I just completed it.

Would love another tournament but don't make it core only. Regular GvG rules.

> @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> Discussing "enjoyment" seems like a poor choice when trying to promote stealth gameplay. Are we supposed to pretend the other players' experience doesn't matter?

I don't think that in-combat stealth is *inherently* bad as others in this thread have suggested, but it does need to be balanced. However, like @"UNOwen.7132" said, these reveal skills do nothing to balance bursty stealth engages. The devs need to attack that from a different angle, for example decreasing damage done while in stealth. **The reveal skills only really have an impact on using stealth as a disengage tool**. This is why they are such a problem for roamers. If you get jumped by a group that outnumbers you 3:1 or more, you should at least have the *chance* to get away. These reveal skills make that impossible.

Can we try to keep this on topic please?

@"apharma.3741" Sentries, watchtowers, and general stealth-hate in WvW is definitely an issue for small-scale roamers as well. Thanks for your input!

@"BeepBoopBop.5403" Detection Pulse was the one skill I was debating whether or not to include. You're right that it's much less of an offender than the other two skills. In a perfect world I would rather them give it a more distinct animation, but idk if the balance team has the resources to do that, which is why I went for the longer cast time. :)

> @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> > @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> > Let's first consider why the revealed debuff exists in the first place. When the game launched, reveal could not be applied by enemy players. You could ONLY get revealed by attacking while in stealth. **The whole point was to prevent players from stealthing, then attacking, then restealthing immediately before the enemy could do anything.Over time, the devs slowly added [skills/traits that apply revealed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) to further counter stealth.** In this post, I am going to go over the 3 skills on this list that make solo roaming extremely unenjoyable and make no sense from a balance standpoint.

> >

>

> The implication is they had to add more reveals to counter stealth, but they were also perfectly fine with introducing a mechanic that removes reveal, is an ammo and has 0 counter play. So you complain about Lock On but fail to mention, hey maybe we should also rework shadow meld into something with counter play. A skill that counters a counter to stealth. Makes sense...

I didn't mention it because Deadeye is so weak that it can go unnoticed. Shadow Meld doesn't seem to have this huge impact on gameplay like the skills I mentioned. But yeah, it should be reworked and I don't think it makes sense for any skill to remove reveal. Good point!

> @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> > @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> > Let's first consider why the revealed debuff exists in the first place. When the game launched, reveal could not be applied by enemy players. You could ONLY get revealed by attacking while in stealth. The whole point was to prevent players from stealthing, then attacking, then restealthing immediately before the enemy could do anything. Over time, the devs slowly added [skills/traits that apply revealed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) to further counter stealth. In this post, I am going to go over the 3 skills on this list that make solo roaming extremely unenjoyable and make no sense from a balance standpoint.

> >

> > [Lock On](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lock_On)/[invisible Analysis](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invisible_Analysis): this skill would be okay if it worked the way I assume it was intended - If you can read where the stealthed player is, then hit them with an auto attack or AoE, you also reveal them. That would be an amazing skill and it would feel so satisfying to land. But sadly, that's not how it works 99% of the time. Everyone knows by now that if you're in the middle of attacking someone and they stealth, your next attack will still hit them. So really, this trait translates to "instantly reveal an enemy if they stealth while in combat with you" on a 25 second cooldown. Which, needless to say, is a pretty stupid trait.

> >

> > ["Sic 'Em!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em!%22): This skill is so busted that they even [named a PvP build after it](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Soulbeast_-_Sic_%27Em_Sniper). Soulbeast roamers will typically use this skill on engage and off cooldown - not to apply reveal, but because of the 40% damage and movement speed. Even if it didn't apply reveal, it would still be pretty much mandatory for Soulbeasts. So why bloat an already broken skill with unnecessary reveal?

> >

> > [Detection Pulse](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detection_Pulse): Detection Pulse is very important for GvG and large scale combat. That said, it is a massive pain in the kitten for solo roaming for obvious reasons. I have a simple solution that will not affect the GvG meta at all, but will greatly improve solo roaming. Simply increase the cast-time to 1-2 seconds, giving stealthed players the opportunity to dodge or block the pulse.

> >

> > For Thief and Mesmer roamers, stealth is a critical part of their playstyle. To give an analogy: Necromancers, lets say there was a debuff that prevented you from entering death shroud. Now let's put that debuff on the 3 skills listed above. Maybe it wouldn't ruin your build and make you useless, but it would *certainly* make the game less enjoyable for you. Thanks for reading and comment your thoughts below.

>

> And yet you're perfectly fine with the DE elite. Rather hypocritical isn't it?

Where did I ever say this lol

I don't play deadeye but Shadow Meld has never been a problem for me. But yeah I guess any skill that removes reveal is probably not a good idea. Could you elaborate further on what's wrong with it?

Let's first consider why the revealed debuff exists in the first place. When the game launched, reveal could not be applied by enemy players. You could ONLY get revealed by attacking while in stealth. The whole point was to prevent players from stealthing, then attacking, then restealthing immediately before the enemy could do anything. Over time, the devs slowly added [skills/traits that apply revealed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) to further counter stealth. In this post, I am going to go over the 3 skills on this list that make solo roaming extremely unenjoyable and make no sense from a balance standpoint.

[Lock On](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lock_On)/[invisible Analysis](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invisible_Analysis): this skill would be okay if it worked the way I assume it was intended - If you can read where the stealthed player is, then hit them with an auto attack or AoE, you also reveal them. That would be an amazing skill and it would feel so satisfying to land. But sadly, that's not how it works 99% of the time. Everyone knows by now that if you're in the middle of attacking someone and they stealth, your next attack will still hit them. So really, this trait translates to "instantly reveal an enemy if they stealth while in combat with you" on a 25 second cooldown. Which, needless to say, is a pretty stupid trait.

["Sic 'Em!"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Sic_%27Em!%22): This skill is so busted that they even [named a PvP build after it](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Soulbeast_-_Sic_%27Em_Sniper). Soulbeast roamers will typically use this skill on engage and off cooldown - not to apply reveal, but because of the 40% damage and movement speed. Even if it didn't apply reveal, it would still be pretty much mandatory for Soulbeasts. So why bloat an already broken skill with unnecessary reveal?

[Detection Pulse](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Detection_Pulse): Detection Pulse is very important for GvG and large scale combat. That said, it is a massive pain in the ass for solo roaming for obvious reasons. I have a simple solution that will not affect the GvG meta at all, but will greatly improve solo roaming. Simply increase the cast-time to 1-2 seconds, giving stealthed players the opportunity to dodge or block the pulse.

For Thief and Mesmer roamers, stealth is a critical part of their playstyle. To give an analogy: Necromancers, lets say there was a debuff that prevented you from entering death shroud. Now let's put that debuff on the 3 skills listed above. Maybe it wouldn't ruin your build and make you useless, but it would *certainly* make the game less enjoyable for you. Thanks for reading and comment your thoughts below.

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> It really doesn't make any sense that they are awarded in what is basically a level 80 part of the game.

It makes complete sense. A lot of players only play WvW so how else are they going to level up alts?

Please let us vendor these Anet, its super annoying to have to type out "6 Emblems of the Avenger" whenever I want to clear my inventory

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> With all this talk of profession balance, please remember to further evaluate runes and sigils. There are still some outlying overperformers, Tormenting Runes being the most notable to me, especially with sustain being brought down. Play a Mallyx Rev and tell me that the runes are balanced in any way, shape, or form.

While I agree, I don't think they have developed the tech to split runes and sigils between PvE/WvW, so we kinda have to compromise with the PvE crowd.

Overall the power adjustment looks great, and I'm very excited to see this in action. I do have one concern, and that is with cleanses. While I think it's fantastic that you're looking to reduce the burst potential of conditions and extend their durations instead, I strongly suggest toning down cleanse abilities such as Manta of Lore and Fumigate, which are not listed on these notes. Having the right balance of conditions/cleanses makes for some interesting gameplay decisions, for example:

I have confusion stacks on me, and my opponent has all of their defenses on cooldown. They also have another strong condition they can hit me with such as chill or slow. I have a few options. I can choose to cleanse the confusion and attack them while their defenses are down, and hope to evade the chill/slow when they inevitably use it on me. Or I can attack through the confusion, sacrificing a chunk of my health but keeping my cleanse for when they apply their other condi(s), so I can cleanse them all at once.

Being able to constantly cleanse everything makes for easy-mode, uninteresting gameplay. Take my example and play it through now. Oh, I have confusion on me? I'll just cleanse that real quick. Enemy applies slow/chill? I'll go ahead and cleanse that too!

I do understand the fear of conditions becoming out of control again, so I understand why you would be cautious with the nerfs to cleanses. I had just hoped to at least see these skills on the list.

> @"Ranissa.7380" said:

> All these months I had stuck it out. Waiting and hoping things would get better, or at least not worse. I stuck with it because I really enjoy raiding. But now you have maid raids just about impossible for any class I enjoy. Yep - done with this game. As a point of interest, my whole raid group has been drifting away and basically plans to quit now. You just LOVE making the PvE content impossible.

Read the title... these changes are for PvP/WvW only.

Just be patient lol. The balance patch will come soon enough. Play another game while you wait. Or pick up an IRL hobby.

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> Your post assumes they are broken.

>

>

Which would be entirely accurate.

> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

> I just put in a change to make the Lance unblockable. It won't make it in for the next release, but it's coming in the future.

You're good at what you do, Cal. If only you had the power to delete the mount from the game entirely :)

I'm glad that they are moving in the right direction when it comes to power creep, but sadly these "nerfs" will be insignificant. We need extensive nerfs to most PoF specs and other skills that were buffed post-PoF. At their current pace of slightly adjusting 2 broken skills per elite spec every 3 months, they will never fix this problem. Keep the nerfs coming.

Just get good like me XD I just hit gold division so I'm probably the best player in the game XD

Bro just learn to play, just hit your buttons it's easy XD