STIHL.2489

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > No, I read that perfectly.. now maybe you might want to read your own words.. and then think "Hey, what about people that don't already belong to a clique of raiders" .. hum they would be exactly like you were.. but with no _returning friends_

> > Now hard to see the reality.. when you open your own eyes.

> > But feel free to keep the blinders on.. my point is done with you.

>

> Edit:

> Maybe it's the language barrier since I'm not a native english speaker. I'll try it again: Raids are the content that are keeping me playing the game. Without raids I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't be spending any amount of money.

Again, let me break this down for you. You left after raids came out, Raids had been a part of this game when you chose to leave, and you chose to leave because you could not make progress doing raids.

You **did not** go out and join a Raid training guild (Which were already available by the end of the first month Raids went live, if not sooner, so you left after they were available)

You **did not** find a new static group to run with because you loved the content and wanted to do it.

You **did not** try to Pug your way into getting good at raids, or even start your own LFM's.

In short you did **none of the things that raiders tell other people to do** to get into raids.

**You Left the game.**

As Irony would have it.. **you left because you could not do raids**.

Well, I am sure you were not alone in that, but I am going to wager there were a lot more people that didn't have a circle of friends to be there for them to return to. Truth is, if your friends had not come back to work with you and walk with you though raids you never would have come back, , and by your own admission not being able to do raids would have been the very reason why you left.

The Irony will never escape me.

You are living proof they should have put in an easy mode, for all he players like you that want to do raids, but unlike you, don't have an existing group of friends to walk them through the content.

When you wonder if people have left over not being able to do raids.. well.. you left.

Great discussion. Thanks for being the living embodiment of my point and stand, even if you will never admit it.

People can see the truth.. and not accept it.

But I stand by what I said, if Raids were profitable standalone, games like Wildstar would not have shut down. As I said before they are a dinosaur of the past, something that should have gone away with Kill Stealing, and Ninja Looting, and are about as welcome in modern MMO's as either of those things.

Raids are simply not good content, they do not build community, they do not foster a better gaming community, they divide the game into raiders and non-raiders, and this is simply not a good thing for an MMO.

They might work if they were made more inclusive like Fractals, bit, in their current set up, they will not profit this game, not in any means.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > Let's make it so every bit of the game is sold in bits and pieces and see which parts can be self funded and which ones cannot. Why stop at Raids? You are saying that Raids would not self fund, which piece of the game CAN self fund I wonder?

> >

> > What's funny, is that I suggested this a long time ago.. Raiders cried to the high heavens that they should not do this.. because they knew their content would never be made with that payment plan.

> >

> > But I support this 100%,

> >

> > YES PLEASE!

> >

> > * sell the Living Stories (Your Hated Beetles),

> > * sell the New World Maps with their special gear,

> > * Sell the Elite Specs,

> > * Sell the Mastery Lines,

> > * Make all Fractals past T2 paid for content only, and sell additional Fractal maps

> > * Make and Sell new WvW maps

> > * Make and Sell New PvP maps,

> > * Make and sell additional Reward Tracks for PvP Content!

> > * Make and Sell new Dungeons

> > * Make and Sell New Raids

> > * Sell all those things separate from each other,

> > * Throw in some Special Seasonal events in there too.. like some kind of Spring revival event, Paid Only.

> >

> > Piecemeal the game.. GW2 would not be the first game to do this.. and then build and develop what sells.

> >

> > YAH BABY! MAKE THIS HAPPEN.. I would even come back if they did this.. just so I could watch your raids die.

> >

> > Wanna know something.. a ways back, I even made a poll on this very subject..

> >

> > wanna guess what took the most votes (here is a hint, it was not Raids).

> >

>

> This wouldn't just kill raids, it would literally kill the entire game singlehandedly.

Again, others games have done this with much success, spare me the doom and gloom.

> Breaking the game into a bunch of disconnected parts constantly asking you to bust our your credit card literally every door you walk through would drive away players from all content in the game. I mean hell just imagine the monstrously bad press this would get from every gaming publication and pundit about how the previously free to play, occasional paid expansion, no pay to win skin and convenience cash shop is suddenly demanding money from players literally every step they take in the game. It would make Mount Gate, Heart of Thorns Price Point, and Jessica Price controversies look microscopically small in comparison. I can literally see the Jim Sterling episode with 2 million views play out in my head.

So let me get this right.. players will get outraged for not being charged for the development of content they don't play.. amazing.

I find it hilarious that after the notorious Mount gate as it was called, happened that players would be offended that they are no longer being gulled into funding parts of the game they may hate and wish was never made though buying things like Mount Skins and could just buy and support the development of the content that they want to play.

Will these kinds of wonders never cease. to amaze and amuse me.

The fact that players called Mount Skins P2W still makes me chuckle even to this day. The hilarity of that event has not dulled with the passage of time. I cannot fathom what the Executive team must think of "Mount Gate".. I hope they laugh about the absurdity of it as much as I do.

But.. hey.. I am kinda reminded of a Quote that was Attributed to P.T Barnum.

> @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > @"Cattastrophy.2874" said:

> > > > > > Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

> > > > >

> > > > > That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

> > > >

> > > > I think thats a problem with almost every mode. Ticket farmers in PVP and WVW who just want rewards and dont want to enjoy the mode itself clash constantly with the more hardcore players of that mode.

> > > Yes, that's true. Basically, it happens every time you create a mode where players need to depend on each other, design it for a specific group of players, and then create rewards aimed at a completely different group of players. The more effort and teamplay the content requires, the more toxicity is going to happen.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > So what exactly is the advantage of making this content then, if it invariably breeds a toxic environment?

>

> The enjoyment people get out of group content is worth the risk of toxicity from a small number of people. If you remove all group content from an MMO you end up with a single player live service. This is not what gw2 is intended to be.

>

> Do you really want all dungeons, fractals, raids, wvw, pvp and group events removed from the game?

You are confusing social content with group content.

Dungeons, Fractals, and Raids, are **group content** as they **require** you to be in a group to play with other people, such they are group based content.

WvW and open world like content IE: World Bosses, Meta Events, Dynamic Events, etc, are **Social Content** as they have no such requirement to group for anyone to contribute to the completion and receive a reward for doing so.

Spare me the "Oh no it would be a Solo Game without group content" there is only Fractals, Dungeons and Raids that are group content, and there is a huge world of the game that is social content.

They could get rid of the group content, BDO did, and it;s doing fine.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Cattastrophy.2874" said:

> > > > Don't join groups or play with people who don't want the same things in the game as you do. They won't like you, you won't like them.

> > >

> > > That's one problem with raid system now. It mixes people with different goals in the same content, while at the same time being demanding enough that even small differences in opinion/behaviour can cause tempers to flare.

> >

> > I think thats a problem with almost every mode. Ticket farmers in PVP and WVW who just want rewards and dont want to enjoy the mode itself clash constantly with the more hardcore players of that mode.

> Yes, that's true. Basically, it happens every time you create a mode where players need to depend on each other, design it for a specific group of players, and then create rewards aimed at a completely different group of players. The more effort and teamplay the content requires, the more toxicity is going to happen.

>

>

So what exactly is the advantage of making this content then, if it invariably breeds a toxic environment?

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Let's make it so every bit of the game is sold in bits and pieces and see which parts can be self funded and which ones cannot. Why stop at Raids? You are saying that Raids would not self fund, which piece of the game CAN self fund I wonder?

What's funny, is that I suggested this a long time ago.. Raiders cried to the high heavens that they should not do this.. because they knew their content would never be made with that payment plan.

But I support this 100%,

YES PLEASE!

* sell the Living Stories (Your Hated Beetles),

* sell the New World Maps with their special gear,

* Sell the Elite Specs,

* Sell the Mastery Lines,

* Make all Fractals past T2 paid for content only, and sell additional Fractal maps

* Make and Sell new WvW maps

* Make and Sell New PvP maps,

* Make and sell additional Reward Tracks for PvP Content!

* Make and Sell new Dungeons

* Make and Sell New Raids

* Sell all those things separate from each other,

* Throw in some Special Seasonal events in there too.. like some kind of Spring revival event, Paid Only.

Piecemeal the game.. GW2 would not be the first game to do this.. and then build and develop what sells.

YAH BABY! MAKE THIS HAPPEN.. I would even come back if they did this.. just so I could watch your raids die.

Wanna know something.. a ways back, I even made a poll on this very subject..

wanna guess what took the most votes (here is a hint, it was not Raids).

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Not at all, if there was any truth to that, they could sell raids stand alone and they would self fund.. and we both know this is not true at all. As such, they must be loosing money making raids.

>

> This is silly and assumes that these raiders only play Raids and no other parts of the game.

Yup silly.. almost as silly as assuming that they would only buy the expansion for the raids, I do so love how you shot down your own point of their profitability.

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> No, you didn't read properly: I left because there was nothing to do for me in the game in the first place. And that was shortly **AFTER BRINGING OUT AN EXPANSION** a.k.a. not having any substantial content fitting to my demands. The only thing I was interested in were raids **but due to them being new and nobody of my friends and guild mates were actually trying because they did collections or already left the game after some weeks before me leaving**.

No, I read that perfectly.. now maybe you might want to read your own words.. and then think "Hey, what about people that don't already belong to a clique of raiders" .. hum they would be exactly like you were.. but with no _returning friends_

Now hard to see the reality.. when you open your own eyes.

But feel free to keep the blinders on.. my point is done with you.

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > Raids on the other hand, are not profitable at all, as there is not a single thing about them to market in the store, or to the people that do them.

> > >

> > > Raids mean expansion sales just to access them.

> >

> > This only applies to the <10% of the players that want to raid, and would mean a little less then jack squat to their overall sales.

>

> That still makes Raids more -actually- profitable than Fractals, WVW or PVP. At least to Raid you need to buy an expansion, regardless of the number. To play the others you need nothing, you can play them as a cheap free player without ever giving anything to Anet.

Not at all, if there was any truth to that, they could sell raids stand alone and they would self fund.. and we both know this is not true at all. As such, they must be loosing money making raids.

Ponder that for a while before you just cry that I am wrong and throw out some unfounded hackneyed reason why you think that is not true.

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > See, For anyone that is wondering, this poster just made it clear that Raids did not retain them, even with their introduction, and the supposedly _harder/better content_ of HoT, they still left the game.

> >

> > The ONLY thing that retained this player was their friends playing again.. not raids, not convoluted HoT maps, not Meta Events, not Fractals, not any content in any form.... their friends... and ONLY their friends.

> > In short.. if your fiends had not come back to play, you would not have been here. Raids had nothing to do with it, it's that simple.

>

> Wrong! I was browsing the german subforum on a daily basis - I am one of the more active poster there out of maybe 20 peeps - and looking for raid groups that could have fit for me. The thing with some friends was just very lucky but logical consequence due to both sites looking after getting into raids.

> With the amount of training discords now and with me reading the forums & reddit I would have been back as well becaus there is a semi-reasonable approach of players bringing into the content.

Oh please.. lets spare the deception... the content didn't bring you in or retain you, _you left when it was put in_ .

**YOU LEFT WHEN RAIDS WERE PUT IN**

And you didn't come back for them.. truth is, no matter how much you try to play it otherwise The ONLY reason you are playing today, is because your friends are playing.

**NO OTHER REASON**

You will do content you hate because they are doing it.. You know it, I know it, and reality is, it's not raids, roller beetles, or anything else as to why you are here today, , _it's your friends_, and _when they leave, you will leave with them_..

I'd say we are done now.. but, I don't think you want to admit the truth, even when you know it.

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Raids on the other hand, are not profitable at all, as there is not a single thing about them to market in the store, or to the people that do them.

>

> Raids mean expansion sales just to access them.

This only applies to the <10% of the players that want to raid, and would mean a little less then jack squat to their overall sales.

and exist.. sure... after all Dungeons Exist.. they are already in the game.. thus.. they exist. Not sure what your point was, when the reality is, Raids didn't keep you either, you're fiends did.. and when they leave again.. so will you.. raids or no raids.

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > You would have bought that with or without raids being in the game.. come off it.

>

> No, I wouldn't because I would have left the game. When Heart of Thorns was released after a very long content drought I've seen it as Anet's last chance to convince me of GW2. I played the story, the maps several times, the new fractal system with levelling to 100 and tried raids. I left again 1 or 2 months after release because there hasn't been anything left in the game that interested me besides raids but I was not motivated to look for a static. When I came back it was the same picture but luckily friends of mine were also playing again and tried raids. I joined them and could make progress. I'm enjoying raiding till that day compared with open world breaks and sometimes daily fractals. ~~Without raids I wouldn't be here~~. _Without my Friends coming back to play_, It's that simple.

Fixed that for you.

See, For anyone that is wondering, this poster just made it clear that Raids did not retain them, even with their introduction, and the supposedly _harder/better content_ of HoT, they still left the game.

The ONLY thing that retained this player was their friends playing again.. not raids, not convoluted HoT maps, not Meta Events, not Fractals, not any content in any form.... their friends... and ONLY their friends.

In short.. if your fiends had not come back to play, you would not have been here. Raids had nothing to do with it, it's that simple.

> > > I don't believe they would ride a dead horse for years. That would be insane from a serious business view.

> >

> > LOL.. I see you never heard of the NGE, if you really think an MMO would not cling to a mistake.

>

> Of course there are those example but please show me the exact proof that raids are a dead horse in GW2. There's absolutely zero sign for such an assumption because they are actively played every day. And since NCSoft earning report numbers are very solid for GW2 I still don't see any tiny bit of the picture you want to paint.

You make it sound like player numbers matters, or that participation is important.. Dungeons were also played all the time. with actual real PUG groups, there was always LFG's for many of the dungeons, AC, TA, CoF, were very common, and these were real PUG's, not sellers, where even filthy casual like myself could very easy get several thousand tokens, not only that, they were linked to all the Gen 1 Legendary Weapons, _yet they were canceled_ .

Truth is, you have no idea why Raids are still around, they didn't even retain you, only your friends did that, and their existence is not a measurement of their success or activity, but simply because someone in a position of control is keeping them around for reasons you know nothing about.

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Raids on the other hand, are not profitable at all, as there is not a single thing about them to market in the store, or to the people that do them.

>

> Go have a look at raid squads during Xera, before Cairn & Deimos fights, in W5 or W6. People are fully geared with different gliders and mount skins. Those people are **also** spending gems & money to Anet (or: NCSoft) **and** they are playing raids. You don't want to deny that these players have their rights to exist in the game as well as they are a part of the income, do you? Everyone in my raid guilds has spent money to the game.

You would have bought that with or without raids being in the game.. come off it.

> I don't believe they would ride a dead horse for years. That would be insane from a serious business view.

LOL.. I see you never heard of the NGE, if you really think an MMO would not cling to a mistake.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Nokaru.7831" said:

> > > If you're really going to go on about what is truly economical, MMOs in general are a massive risk compared to the mobile market. You'd make way more money training 15 designers to product mobile games rather than having them craft any aspect of this MMO.

> >

> > Funny you say this.. I have since abandoned this game for a phone game.. how ironic.

> >

> > Wonder how many others on here have also long since left the game, raiders included, as over half the people that used to send me hate mail about my stance against raids in game admitted they no longer play.

> >

> > So.. yah.. keep dreaming that Raids are profitable.

>

> Anet stopped having PvP tournaments with cash prizes real quick when it was clear PvP wasn't getting the traction to justify the investment.

>

> If raids weren't meeting population expectations based on how much it costs to develop them they would have already dropped them by now.

Unlike the ESport venture they tried with sPvP, which they could directly see both the internal player investment, and outside interest/influence, the other parts of the game are funded basically by a crowed funded system where people buy stuff from the store and they use that to fund the game. Hence why regardless that their ESport venture failing hard, sPvP is not only still around, it is getting updates.

> Heck if you're talking profit, then literally nothing in game should be developed aside from gem store mount akins. Nothing in a free to play game is "profitable " on it's own.

>

No, see, this is where you are flat out wrong.

In fact, you could not be more off your mark if you tried. You used Mounts, but glider skins were also a big sale item, as you can look around and see that almost everyone you meet has a custom one , I could go on about Inventory space, Dyes, Weapon Skins (which are very popular), those mini-pet things that almost everyone has, which are both store and game items.. there are a slew of items they sell that have been keeping this game going for years before mount skins came around..

Raids on the other hand, are not profitable at all, as there is not a single thing about them to market in the store, or to the people that do them.

> Also lol at the idea that legions of people are sending you hate mail in game. If anyone actually thinks this is true I have a bridge to sell you.

Please refrain from the personal insults and taking about something you know nothing about, as unless you have access to my account directly, you have zero idea how much hate mail I got, and if you paid any attention to these forums, every regular in this topic knows of me far more then they know of you.

This is one of the reasons why I play MOBA's when I am looking for challenging fights, and play mobile games when I am looking to relax and unwind.. MMO's just don't really offer either of those anymore. GW2 used to.. but not anymore.

I wish them well tho. Maybe next expansion I'll see what they cook up.

> @"Nokaru.7831" said:

> If you're really going to go on about what is truly economical, MMOs in general are a massive risk compared to the mobile market. You'd make way more money training 15 designers to product mobile games rather than having them craft any aspect of this MMO.

Funny you say this.. I have since abandoned this game for a phone game.. how ironic.

Wonder how many others on here have also long since left the game, raiders included, as over half the people that used to send me hate mail about my stance against raids in game admitted they no longer play.

So.. yah.. keep dreaming that Raids are profitable.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > > > > > > Th> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > > > > > > > > I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > How is that new raid going so far?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I call nonsense.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi STIHL, how nice of you to be back.

> > > > >

> > > > > No it hasn't since I do not believe the barrier of entry to be that high to begin with, which is supported by new players and their occasional shared stories of how they entered raids.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm sure though that if I went by every unsuccessful story and the expectations and effort demonstrated in those (usually none) I might have a different view.

> > > > >

> > > > > Which leads me to my next point, I'm not even sure I'd want raids to become mainstream. It would require a fundamental shift in this entire games design and focus, not something I'm sure would be necessary healthy.

> > > >

> > > > I'd say it's nice to be back, but that would be a lie.. my internet went to kitten, and now, since I can't really play anything, I am posting on the forums to kill time. Don't get too used to my presence. I'm just scratching an itch with this abomination of a topic.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway.. yes.. a fundamental shift.. like how PoF was a Fundamental Shift from HoT. But lo, numbers are up, the game is doing better, and now it's just a matter of time before Anet realizes that trying to make Niche content for a small niche group of players, is not really profitable, and that the more inclusive they can make their content, the better the overall social and fiscal health of the game.

> > > >

> > >

> > > There is a ton of reasons as to why the game is in a better place. Many and/or almost all of them have hardly to do with raids.

> > >

> >

> > When I brought up that the fiscal reports were down after HoT, for a full year, until the Hype regarding PoF, came out, your niche group said something along the lines of _The game is getting older this just happens_ trying to dismiss the downward trend, now, using that as a metric, and I'm really not being rude here, but, if I was looking for viable insight as to why this game was doing better or worse each quarter,, your niche group would not be on my list.

> >

>

> STIHL, you have been arguing the games demise ever since you joined the forums.

No I haven't .. and I would like it if you could refrain from lying about me.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > > > > Th> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > > > > > > I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > How is that new raid going so far?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

> > > > >

> > > > > I call nonsense.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

> > > > >

> > > > > Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

> > > > >

> > > > > There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

> > > >

> > > > has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

> > > >

> > >

> > > Hi STIHL, how nice of you to be back.

> > >

> > > No it hasn't since I do not believe the barrier of entry to be that high to begin with, which is supported by new players and their occasional shared stories of how they entered raids.

> > >

> > > I'm sure though that if I went by every unsuccessful story and the expectations and effort demonstrated in those (usually none) I might have a different view.

> > >

> > > Which leads me to my next point, I'm not even sure I'd want raids to become mainstream. It would require a fundamental shift in this entire games design and focus, not something I'm sure would be necessary healthy.

> >

> > I'd say it's nice to be back, but that would be a lie.. my internet went to kitten, and now, since I can't really play anything, I am posting on the forums to kill time. Don't get too used to my presence. I'm just scratching an itch with this abomination of a topic.

> >

> > Anyway.. yes.. a fundamental shift.. like how PoF was a Fundamental Shift from HoT. But lo, numbers are up, the game is doing better, and now it's just a matter of time before Anet realizes that trying to make Niche content for a small niche group of players, is not really profitable, and that the more inclusive they can make their content, the better the overall social and fiscal health of the game.

> >

>

> There is a ton of reasons as to why the game is in a better place. Many and/or almost all of them have hardly to do with raids.

>

When I brought up that the fiscal reports were down after HoT, for a full year, until the Hype regarding PoF, came out, your niche group said something along the lines of _The game is getting older this just happens_ trying to dismiss the downward trend, now, using that as a metric, and I'm really not being rude here, but, if I was looking for viable insight as to why this game was doing better or worse each quarter,, your niche group would not be on my list.

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > But then again, they may never revise raids, just like they never revised dungeons, they might just scrap them and put in something else to fill the void like they put in fractals to replace dungeons..

> > it's only going to get progressively harder for them to justify the budget for raids as time goes on when other content and demographics are what is making the money.

> >

>

> Sure, and if cost for this content outweighs its benefits I'm sure it will get cut. Right after spvp and wvw have been removed from the game and maybe even some Living World episodes given the completion rate and play time on many of those things.

You really think they would cut WvW which has gotten a grand total of 1 new map in 6 years, before they would cut raid production which requires entire new mechanics, mobs, loot systems, graphics, and testing and I might add, **more** testing.. Well.. again. no diss, but I think you are confused on what "Cost for Content" actually means.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > > Th> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > > > > I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How is that new raid going so far?

> > > > >

> > > > > Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

> > > >

> > > > If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

> > >

> > > I call nonsense.

> > >

> > > It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

> > >

> > > Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

> > >

> > > It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

> > >

> > > There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

> >

> > has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

> >

>

> Hi STIHL, how nice of you to be back.

>

> No it hasn't since I do not believe the barrier of entry to be that high to begin with, which is supported by new players and their occasional shared stories of how they entered raids.

>

> I'm sure though that if I went by every unsuccessful story and the expectations and effort demonstrated in those (usually none) I might have a different view.

>

> Which leads me to my next point, I'm not even sure I'd want raids to become mainstream. It would require a fundamental shift in this entire games design and focus, not something I'm sure would be necessary healthy.

I'd say it's nice to be back, but that would be a lie.. my internet went to crap, and now, since I can't really play anything, I am posting on the forums to kill time. Don't get too used to my presence. I'm just scratching an itch with this abomination of a topic.

Anyway.. yes.. a fundamental shift.. like how PoF was a Fundamental Shift from HoT. But lo, numbers are up, the game is doing better, and now it's just a matter of time before Anet realizes that trying to make Niche content for a small niche group of players, is not really profitable, and that the more inclusive they can make their content, the better the overall social and fiscal health of the game.

But then again, they may never revise raids, just like they never revised dungeons, they might just scrap them and put in something else to fill the void like they put in fractals to replace dungeons..

I mean, not being rude, and nothing personal at this point, because try as I might my apathy outweighs any real investment into feelings about this,, but they tried that catering to the Hardcore players, it just doesn't work.. and it's only going to get progressively harder for them to justify the budget for raids as time goes on when other content and demographics are what is making the money.

You really should have thought about it.. especially in lieu of the rebound after PoF, and realizing that the HoT Content direction, was a failure.

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

>

> > has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

>

> has it ever dawned on you that the same is true for literally any other game mode in the game?

>

While you have not answered my question, I will still answer yours.

Yes.. I have, and It has dawned on me that for things like Fractals, that have tiers, that allow a wide range of players to enjoy the content at their pace and skill bracket, it works amazingly well and for things like Dungeons where they only had one difficulty for the Explorer Paths, which were originally supposed to be their "Hardcore Content".. Oh right.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > Th> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > > I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

> > > >

> > > > How is that new raid going so far?

> > >

> > > Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

> >

> > If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

>

> I call nonsense.

>

> It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

>

> Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

>

> It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

>

> There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

has it ever dawned on you that it remains a niche game mode because it does not have an easy mode to attract a wider audience?

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"zencow.3651" said:

> > > > @"curtegg.5216" said:

> > > > It's a shame that such an attitude exists because raids are based upon obsolete mechanics of stacking various attacks against a time gate requiring certain levels of dps. Given software (AI and the like) why can't MMOs base boss mechanics upon raid group composition forcing different tactics by the group instead of simplistic fixed phases of dps checks. It's shocking that MMOs still use old methodologies for their customers.

> > >

> > > Because it's a model allows all players in a group to know what to do to succeed in the content. It allows people to 'learn' the mechanic and know they are guaranteed to complete that content once they have developed a certain degree of proficiency. Humans as part of our nature like to see patterns that they can predict.

> > >

> > > Advanced AI, randomness and unpredictability aren't factors that a majority of people actually find enjoyable.

> >

> > In short.. No one really likes challenge.

> PvP players do (usually, anyway).

> What PvE players like is the feeling they've met the challenge and overcame it. Not once, but _permanently_. And that of course can happen if the "challenge" is really, truly challenging only during the learning part.

>

> Notice, that in the latter case, it also works if the challenge exists only within the mind of the player. In general, MMOs have become very proficient in creating _illusion_ of challenge for players to "overcome". Basically, it doesn't really matter if the content is challenging, as long as you manage to persuade the players that it is.

The only thing that PvE MMO players like is the feeling that they have loot that they feel someone else can't get, the what they hate is when someone else can get loot they can't.

Challenge never gets involved in that equation.

> @"zencow.3651" said:

> > @"curtegg.5216" said:

> > It's a shame that such an attitude exists because raids are based upon obsolete mechanics of stacking various attacks against a time gate requiring certain levels of dps. Given software (AI and the like) why can't MMOs base boss mechanics upon raid group composition forcing different tactics by the group instead of simplistic fixed phases of dps checks. It's shocking that MMOs still use old methodologies for their customers.

>

> Because it's a model allows all players in a group to know what to do to succeed in the content. It allows people to 'learn' the mechanic and know they are guaranteed to complete that content once they have developed a certain degree of proficiency. Humans as part of our nature like to see patterns that they can predict.

>

> Advanced AI, randomness and unpredictability aren't factors that a majority of people actually find enjoyable.

In short.. No one really likes challenge.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957"

> >

> > I want you to know.. That I noticed you have not addressed my question.. or my answer to your actual question.

> >

> > Till you do.. we are done.

> As for your question - I'm not there for challenge, so i don't really care.

>

> And as for your answer to my question... i still don't know why do you think there's any value in going for a more complicated and more failure-prone tactics when a simple, easy and hard to fail one is available. You haven't answered that one yet.

>

> And if you don't actually think so (as your "you shouldn't" might suggest), then why are you arguing otherwise? Because if you intentionally are arguing for a point you don't believe to be true, then yes, we _are_ done.

>

If you are just there for easy farm content. why ask for it to be challenging?

@"Astralporing.1957"

I want you to know.. That I noticed you have not addressed my question.. or my answer to your actual question.

Till you do.. we are done.