Lazze.9870

> @"JorneMormel.9850" said:

> > @"Soilder.3607" said:

> > Revisiting this topic after having resumed playing support Druid in WvW again.

> > 1.

> > 2.

> > 3...

> > 4. Pets - Just get rid of them when playing druid and roll their traits into the ranger. Entering/exiting CA mode counts as pet swap for purpose of traits etc etc...

>

> Agreed wholeheartedly, but how would you go about the (Beastmastery) traitline(s) and skills/effects that affect the pet?

The exact same way they handle soulbeast, but with number changes to not make the elite spec oppressing.

> @"Soilder.3607" said:

> Coming from an old GW1 Ranger main (who would later switch to Ritualist), I never liked the pet being a forced mechanic. I'd be glad if all the elite specs dropped the pet entirely and compensated through other means.

I don't get why anyone who played Ranger in GW1 would prefer pets being a forced mechanic, as it is in GW2. The freedom of how you could play ranger in GW1 would have made a much better platform to build a druid off of than what we have in GW2.

Soulbeast has already provided a baseline for how skills and traits would act for a petless ranger, that is something they could expand on for petless rangers. Not just could, but _should_ expand on if they want to make interesting elite specs in the future. Being stuck with the pet on every damn elite spec is gonna limit what they can do. They can still incorperate it thematically and such, but having the physical AI pet there with its F1-F4 controls? Nope.

And before anyone says that ranger is supposed to be the pet class in this game; I know. And I'd bet Anet regrets that decision.

I run it quite often actually, but that is mostly because I almost always run immob ranger in our guild run, and well.. sometimes the comp is shit, one party lacks a scrapper and there is a queue. Dudu support time. Druid's best role imo is as CC/Immob bot while acting as the third support after FB and scrapper. Immob Soulbeast is overall better if I get the choice.

For druid to be viable as primary healer and cleanser (aka the role scrappers now have), Anet will have to do some major changes to Nature Magic, plus several refinements to druid itself. Anything from completely reworking useless traits like Invigorating Bond into something actually useable in large scale fights, to making Evasive Purity an AoE cleanse, would go a long way. If IB instead was something close to engie's overloaded Purity of Purpose trait, or something as simple as regen you apply cleanses a condition, you'd actually bring something usefull from the core class other than healing spring (and immobs). Using the player's healing power to scale IB would make it a lot better, but it wouldn't get druid any closer to usefulness in WvW.

Druid itself needs refinement to staff, traits and skills. Lingering Light should give us increased outgoing healing all the time, with the bonus doubled in CA (it's way too one-sided as it is now). CA 1 was always shit. Staff 2 was always shit. Staff 5 could be larger.

Glyph of Equality and Alignement are good, especially in CA. I think the Lesser Seed of Life from the glyph trait could be bumped up to two cleanses like it originally was. Glyph of Unity is still.. eh.. It heals a lot when you use it at the right time, but the non-CA version was always trash. Glyph of the Star is cool, but to get the most out of it in WvW it would have to work like scrapper wells (gyros) do. Glyph of the Tides doesn't really add anything, but I wouldn't touch it (maybe flip the two versions).

All that being said, the two most glaring issues before talking about skills and buffs are imo that 1; support without CA feels lackluster. Support with CA feels mostly good, despite some awkward skills. Something needs to be done with the CA access. Both having a cooldown and being forced to reach 100 % is too restricting. Remove the latter, maybe make it more like the heat mechanic Holos have, or something akin to that. It would require more work down the road to balance stuff out, but for a WvW role, it would be a lot better. The alternative is obviously to make druid much more viable as a healer outside of CA. And 2; Pets are dead. Scratch that, they're dead-er with the stat penalties. Won't change unless they do drastic changes to druid as a whole (as in removing the pet ("permamerged", inspired by SB?), make it an invulnerable whisp, or whatever). Would screw over PvP druid and druid roaming, but I don't really care. Core and SB can roam and pvp just fine, I'm sure the next elite spec will too (I'm also sure the upcoming spec _won't_ give ranger a solid WvW squad role, considering they gave us one with pet merge and shared stances, one that heals, and yet none are particularly wanted in a squad - so why not make an existing elite a squad role).

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> The problem with some of the support specs: they are completely busted op.

> Druid can heal and provide important boons and unique buffs to the group (spirits, spotter)

> Firebrand can heal, and provide it's subgroup with quickness and aegis + stability. Which lets you ignore a lot of mechanics.

> Renegade (healer) has insane healing output, and can do perma 10 man alacrity

>

> That's the three busted healers.

Spirits and spotter are core ranger utitlities. That's not the fault of druid.

Druid brings might and some healing. Nothing else. There is a reason this elite spec is pure garbage compared to other support options in PvP and WvW (with one exception; using it as an immobilizer in a wvw zerg, aka an utility spot). And the elite spec is stuck being garbage in every other game mode just because the combination of core ranger utilities and the might + healing from the druid elite spec has given it a role in the raiding meta from day 1. Even now, when it has fallen out of favor in fractal metas and easily can be replaced in raids too, people complain about it because it is a solid choice for raiding and the default go-to for a lot of pug groups.

Druid isn't busted. Not even close. It's carried by core ranger. Firebrand on the other hand has meta builds in pve, pvp and wvw. THAT is busted. Scrapper is the meta cleanser and healer in wvw, and tempest are solid support in both pvp and wvw. There is variety. A lot of it. If you stick your head outside of pve once in a while.

Druid is the least busted **support spec** in the entire game. It's underwhelming. In any content where spirits aren't useable, it falls completely flat. It needs a serious design overhaul, or at least refinement and changes to several of the glyphs and traits. And core ranger needs support utilities other than spirits that brings some synergy between the core class and druid. Several traits in Nature Magic has room for reworks to make that happen. Sadly, none of that will happen because people still still call it "busted" in pve and that's where Anet leaves it at.

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> You're right about one thing though, you are wasting your time.

Don't even try it. You're humerous enough with your "logical conclusions".

Let me dumb this down for you. Higher damage gives the smaller group a better opportunity to punish larger groups harder, yet still survive when played well. Lower damage on the other hand, makes it easier for said large group to sustain the smaller group's bomb. The smaller group shouldn't try and sustain any of it to begin with, even when it becomes eaiser with overall less damage. If someone in the smaller group has bad positioning, that person _should_ be punished by the larger group if focused properly. Not because of damage levels, but because of the share amount of people targeting him/her.

Congrats on figuring out that damage dialed way up equals more concentrated damage on the spot when you drop a bomb. First of all; there is a little bit more to WvW than that, and second of all; I'm not advocating more damage, I am arguing your suggestion to lower it even further.

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > @"Lazze.9870" said:

> > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > > @"iKagura.1903" said:

> > > > > do people actually use druid in wvw?

> > > >

> > > > Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

> > > >

> > > > What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

> > > >

> > > > Well, what if you can't....

> > > >

> > > > Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

> > > >

> > > > CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

> > > >

> > > > I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

> > >

> > > Not moving for two seconds shouldn't be a death sentence. Nerf damage.

> >

> > The more you nerf damage, the stronger you make group numbers. Before, and still now to a lesser extent, you could outplay larger groups. If you nerf damage too much, you end up with larger groups being able to hold W with little thought and win a fight solely because they're larger.

>

> That makes no sense. If you are up against greater numbers, the greater chance you have of surviving if they cannot kill you if you make a single mistake or get caught by an immob. As it is now, you can just be deleted from the game instantly if you catch a halfway decent bomb. Sometimes I don't even get a downstate because they just dropped literally 200,000 DPS on me.

>

> You still have your ability to outplay with lower damage, you just need to focus your attacks better, not just splash AoE over as great an area as possible and rely on their blob size to run over it all. Having lower damage requires you to outplay them.

>

> What you're saying is like "Dragon Banners are good for the game because a small group can use one or two against a zerg to defend". But what about when the attacking zerg brings 4 with them? It doesn't matter how well you outplay because with 4 banners, 15 Scourges, 15 Burn guards and lots of support, they are going to make the floor lava.

Makes no sense?

The point is that the MORE YOU TURN THE DIAL DOWN ON THE DAMAGE, THE GREATER ADVANTAGE YOU GIVE LARGER NUMBERS. That's a fact.

Your survival is tied to your positioning and your team supports. And your callouts.

You have to be mobile all the time, fish out for bombs, kite bubbles, counter bomb. You're making that whole ordeal even more tedious if your dial down the damage even further. The smaller groups have to endure longer without making mistakes, while the larger group can afford making mistakes. They don't care about losing a couple of guys, but for a smaller group that might be detrimental.

You think lower damage is gonna make you survive better? To an extent, but even more so it's gonna make it easier for larger groups to peel of the small group's damage.

And no, I'm not saying dragon banners are good for the game. They shouldn't exist at all. Not because they do damage, but because of the WAY they do damage.

I'm saying you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the game mode and the current meta compared to the last one if you think mass lowering damage across the board is gonna make it easier for smaller organized groups to take out larger zergs. You're gonna make it a slugfest.

The fact that I even have to argue about this just reminds me that I'm wasting my time. I don't want to sound like "that guy", but I play in an organized wvw guild in the higher wvw tiers on EU and the consensus from all the top commanders and guilds are that the current meta favor larger numbers compared to the meta before the huge damage nerfs. "Splashing your aoes's randomly around" is something I'd bet you're struggling with a bit more than what I am. Get real.

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Lazze.9870" said:

>

> Engi and not in need of purity of purpose to stay relevant?

> That trait is almost entirely the reason why scrappers have a place in any game mode at all.

>

> Scrappers are not performing well in PvP as far as I know and in PvE you see them literally never (except for the **very** niche case of giving perma superspeed to the tank in Forging Steel).

>

> WvW is the only place scrapper is really relevant and that is because of it's strong condition to boon conversion. Take that away and scrappers will most likely go extinct in

> Druids have a place in the game as the best meta healers in PvE end game, every group that knows what they are doing will take a druid in their squad for raids or strikes.

> Let scrappers have their own niche in the game, please.

>

First of all, that's is completely wrong. Scrappers would still be viable in blob fights because of the cleansing numberes, regardless if they convert those condis to boons, their access to group superspeed and their stealth gyro for stealthing. Their healing is also very strong. You won't necessarily want one in nearly every subparty, but you still want a fair amount of them.

Second of all, I'm not advocating taking Purity of Purpose away from engies, I'm saying that by doing that and nothing else, the playing field would be a lot more equal than what it currently is. Just playing with the idea. It's not like it's going to happen anyways.

Druid being good for ONE part of ONE game mode is not a good excuse for anything. Scrapper has performed better in PvP recently than what Druid has.

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> No, it doesn't, that's the same with most -if not all- other classes. Stop pretending "your" class is sO oPpReSsEd, it's not.

Any other class have a mechanic that is still suffering from something as simple as being unaffected by quickness? No? Thougt so.

It is not about HURR DURR, MY CLASS IS SPECIAL. It's about the fact that pets introduces the most bugs out of any class mechanic. Period. Don't try and humor me with something silly like guardian being as affected by bugs as ranger is and has been. Especially not when talking about the profession specific mechanic alone.

Most other bugs not tied to a profession specific mechanic are tied to general mechanics shared across professions anyways.

> @"Acyk.9671" said:

> so maybe nerfing scrapper is easier?? jk

To take that joke a bit further, taking Purity of Purpose away from them and adding it to Nature Magic for rangers would go a long way to even out scrapper and druid for blob fights. Scrapper/engie is already stacked with superspeed, better mobile cleanse potential and stealth + other useful albeit niche tools.

That trade is obviously never gonna happen, BUT Anet needs to start looking at core ranger and Nature Magic in particular if druid is gonna be "viable" in zergs. Because there is no way they are going to buff druid alone to the point where it makes up for core ranger pretty much bringing nothing useful except immobs and healing spring. Invigorating Bond should have been kicked out of the game years ago and replaced with a useful support trait that doesn't rely on the pet's F2. Evasive Purity needs to be AoE cleanse, not just self cleanse, similarly to the ele water trait. Add in spotter, Quickdraw utility and shorter cooldown on HS from Skirmishing, and you have a decent baseline before druid comes in.

Druid itself needs refinement. Glyph of the Stars was a step in the right direction in terms of adding good support utility, but in typical Anet fashion it is designed in the most clunky way possible. GotS needs to function like a scrapper gyro/well OR it needs to be placed similarly to the FB tome skills without leaving the druid channeling it for 7 seconds.

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > @"iKagura.1903" said:

> > > do people actually use druid in wvw?

> >

> > Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

> >

> > What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

> >

> > Well, what if you can't....

> >

> > Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

> >

> > CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

> >

> > I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

>

> Not moving for two seconds shouldn't be a death sentence. Nerf damage.

The more you nerf damage, the stronger you make group numbers. Before, and still now to a lesser extent, you could outplay larger groups. If you nerf damage too much, you end up with larger groups being able to hold W with little thought and win a fight solely because they're larger.

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

I have been saying this for a while. It's a crutch. And while I think CC should be a part of Druid (as it is with the daze access), Ancient Seed was never a fun trait to use in any scenario (even if there is something to be said about ranger roots and that they don't really do much unless combined with other things like SpB bubbles). The problem is that Anet doesn't seem interested to make those real changes.

When I brought this up in the profession balance thread after the last balance, there were actual a few people claiming ranger would still have "plenty of utility" to do well in a zerg even if they removed/reduced the immob. Sure, both SB and Druid can do well and bring a few useful things, but compared to the meta professions they're not even close. There is no reason to bring a SB over a Herald if not for immob, and there is no reason to bring a druid over tempest/scrapper if not for immob. Played well enough, druid can get close on cleanses and do good healing, but it lacks all the other utilities scrapper and tempest brings (tempest auras, while scrapper is stacked with condi-to-boon conversion, reliable superspeed, reliable smoke blast for stealth etc).

In an alternative world, if they went back and did something as simple as giving ranger a Purity of Purpose-like trait (perhaps even instead of engie which is already stacked and in no need of that trait to still stay relevant) as a Nature Magic GM trait, replacing Invigorating Bond, while making Evasive Purity in the master tier apply cleanses to nearby allies as well, similar to Stop, Dodge and Roll for Eles*, Druid would have already been in a much better place without even touching the elite spec itself. I doubt Anet EVER even thought about it like that to begin with it. To me it comes of as if they are either purposefully excluding or just willfully ignoring druid in the wvw zerg conversation.

*The current version of Evasive Purity illustrates perfectly how Anet is reluctant to give ranger ally support with skills and traits that are similar to those we find on other professions. Making Druid more viable would be a lot easier if core ranger had a tad bit more utility to back up the support role. Ignoring Ancient Seeds, core ranger is what brings the strongest immobs. Without that, you have a mediocre support elite spec with pretty much nothing from the core class to back it up except from the odd skills out like Healing Spring and such. I don' think there is any way they're gonna buff druid to a level where it can excell in a support role independently of core ranger. That's not me asking for them to change the core ranger identity by giving it loads of support, but for Anet too look at the support traits/potential support traits in Nature Magic that are already there. Invigorating Bond is trash, needs to go, and be replaced by something good that doesn't rely on the pet.

You can play an immobilize druid. with healing and condi cleanse on the side. But you better do it in a squad/guild group that actually wants you to play it.

Druid has way too many issues with its mediocre staff, mediocre glyphs, lack of party utility and traits (from both core ranger and druid itself) compared to the meta classes to be something you want to stack multiple of in a zerg. CA itself isn't really an issue, except from CA1 which is one of the clunkiest skills in the game, the issue is the lack of everything compared to the other classes (except immob) when not in CA.

If niche situations was a reason to rework gyros into wells which are now an important part of scrapper's utility, why on earth can't Anet just get on with it and make the druid glyphs actually useful. They barely see any use in any game mode.

> @"Krispera.5087" said:

> > @"Lazze.9870" said:

> > > @"Krispera.5087" said:

> > > * Viper's Nest change doesn't change anything, not many trapping Condi Rangers in PvP and Condi Ranger use Flame Trap in PvE.

> >

> > Maybe not from what most people play, but the combination of Viper's Nest + Predator's Cunning combo gets hit pretty hard.

>

> That's what bother me. The build is rarely played, yet it got hit ? Was it THAT PROBLEMATIC ? I mean to get hit by Viper's Nest in nowadays PvP movement mobility access, you actually deserve it.

>

> I can't help but feel they balance based on ANet streamers rage, because they get surprised by non-meta builds.

I have only ever used it in wvw duels. I wouldn't call it problematic. Strong dueler, but not op. I doubt it performs better than it should in pvp.

It's a Viper's Nest nerf, which it hardly needed, and it undermines the entire point of Predator's Cunning which is ranger's access to fast applying poison.

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> PvP/WvW Druid doesn't need to be buffed.

Even in a world where your vision of CA becoming a healer stance with no personal sustain and CC (as if CA doesn't gives a big enough target on you in pvp as is) became true, it would still need literal buffs to some staff and glyph abilities. So yes, some places it needs buffs. Other places it needs reworks.

Heals and CCs were the two major component of its design, if you're gonna strip druid of CC while still making it wvw competetive, there is gonna be an even bigger need to add stuff that actually makes it compete with support scrapper/tempest in wvw. Druid currently offers healing, cleanses and immob in a wvw squad. Tempest has superior cleansing, auras and more boons, while scrapper has superspeed, stealth, condi-to-boon conversion _with_ superior cleansing. Both also have more reliable healing, especially scrapper with its medkit 1 spam.

As for Protect me; to hell with the taunt. It's already an aoe stunbreak, give it an aoe support ability in addition to that. Actually, properly flesh out all the command skills while at it. Guard needs a shake up as well. Rework Sic 'em while at it. Oh, and why not make them shout skills again.

> @"Krispera.5087" said:

> * Viper's Nest change doesn't change anything, not many trapping Condi Rangers in PvP and Condi Ranger use Flame Trap in PvE.

Maybe not from what most people play, but the combination of Viper's Nest + Predator's Cunning in a poison dueler build in pvp/wvw combo gets hit pretty hard.

Druid buffs are nice to see, but not the changes that were most needed (although if Lesser Seed of Life gets buffed aswell, it will help the glyphs a lot). Still, the fact that they acknowledge that druid hardly gets played in competetive modes for its support abilities is a start. Depends if they follow up on it.

I don't understand why they just can't do something about Sic'Em instead of nerfing aspects of soulbeast. Getting stats from pets when merged is like half the point of merging to begin with. Sic' em however has never been a fun skill to use ever, except from when slaughetering thieves from the SA guild in wvw.

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > @"Lazze.9870" said:

> > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > @"mistsim.2748" said:

> > > > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > > Wow, these are garbage changes. Scourge is in a good spot right now, why on earth would you make them so dominant that they push out every other dps class again? Back to pirate shipping only for wvw =/

> > > > >

> > > > > And no nerfs to pulsing immobilize on ranger? wut? do you guys play your game?

> > > >

> > > > Rangers don't have a lot of utility. Just accept them as immob specialists, and move on.

> > >

> > > druid immob healers heal as much as firebrands and immobeasts can do as much damage as scourge, they have plenty of utility. There's no reason for them to have the ability to lock down any group with less than 20 people. It makes for really unhealthy play when you get ran over by nothing but immob inside a chain of bubbles.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Plenty of utility? Seriously? You think removing immob is gonna leave druid/soulbeast with plenty of utility to warrant them a spot in wvw? No, not at all. The healing from druid is already scetchy as is because of its heal burst nature, the clunkiness of CA skill 1 and the medicore staff. FB is mostly about boon support anyways, medkit scrappers outheals both.

> >

> > The corrupt scourge brings is way more important than the immob, and their damage will jump back up with the changes in this patch, surpassing what a soulbeast, which has most of its damage tied to melee abilities, can do.

> >

> > No serious groups stack immob rangers. They usually run one druid/soulbeast. Reworking the two major root skills (entangle and the signet, and maybe the ancient seeds trait) will leave rangers unwanted in any squad. **Unless** they start doing meaningful reworks to make support druid viable.

> >

> > A large group with lots of spellbreaker bubbles will mow down a smaller group anyways, with or without the immob.

> >

> > And dragon banners should just be removed.

>

> yes, plenty of utility. I'm not in favor of them removing immob entirely, but 4s durations+ or pulsing with cover conditions are oppressive af alone much more so together. CA's clunky but 2/3/4 and the flipover glyphs are very strong for healing through a push. There's nothing clunky at all about dolyak or bear stance, they work like a charm.

>

> and no, immob>corrupt. that's why every build that can fit it in brings it. you immob and follow up with a scourge bomb because it creates pulsing conditions that cover the immob, allowing you to run over any class that doesn't bring skills that remove immob in particular. immob in a bomb is GG.

>

> No serious groups stacked immob 2 months ago, they're rampant now though. we couldn't even get close to the blob on ebg last night, they had multiple soulbeasts running banner+sic em. Durations need to be cut in half, give them the ele treatment. The pulsing immobs i'm not even sure will be an issue anymore come to think of it, scourges will destroy the roots passively again.

>

> I wasn't talking about getting ran over by a queue when you have 20 people. i'm talking about having 3 bubbles and 2 immob rangers with 25 people allowing you to one push any group that isn't double your size. And 100% agree, dragon banners should be removed.

I'm not saying that Dolyak Stance and Bear Stance are clunky, nothing about immob soulbeast is clunky. I was literally talking about the clunkiness of druid CA1 hampering the healing potential and its mediocre staff. Dude, take the time to read and understand what you're being told.

No, they don't have plenty of utility. If you think druid and soulbeast in its current state with weaker immob bring "plenty of utility", enough to warrant a squad spot instead of scrapper/tempest (druid) or herald (soulbeast), you seriously lack understanding of ranger as a class. Ignore the immob, and those three classes bring A LOT MORE utility than what any druid or soulbeast can bring. There is no argument about that, it's a fact.

And no, the best guild groups don't stack immob rangers. They usually bring one. And as for dragon banners, I already said they should be removed. Punishing ranger for the existence of dragon banners is ridiculous.

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > @"mistsim.2748" said:

> > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > Wow, these are garbage changes. Scourge is in a good spot right now, why on earth would you make them so dominant that they push out every other dps class again? Back to pirate shipping only for wvw =/

> > >

> > > And no nerfs to pulsing immobilize on ranger? wut? do you guys play your game?

> >

> > Rangers don't have a lot of utility. Just accept them as immob specialists, and move on.

>

> druid immob healers heal as much as firebrands and immobeasts can do as much damage as scourge, they have plenty of utility. There's no reason for them to have the ability to lock down any group with less than 20 people. It makes for really unhealthy play when you get ran over by nothing but immob inside a chain of bubbles.

>

>

Plenty of utility? Seriously? You think removing immob is gonna leave druid/soulbeast with plenty of utility to warrant them a squad spot in wvw? No, not at all. The healing from druid is already scetchy as is because of its heal burst nature, the clunkiness of CA skill 1 and the medicore staff. FB is mostly about boon support anyways, medkit scrappers outheals both.

The corrupt scourge brings is way more important than the immob, and their damage will jump back up with the changes in this patch, surpassing what a soulbeast, which has most of its damage tied to melee abilities, can do.

The best wvw guild groups don't stack immob rangers. They usually run one druid/soulbeast, if any at all. Reworking the two major root skills (entangle and the signet, and maybe the ancient seeds trait) will leave rangers unwanted in any squad. **Unless** they start doing meaningful reworks to make support druid perform at a similar level as tempest and scrappers. Say, if druid healed as much as tempest and scrappers, they would still have inferior cleansing to the other two, while scrapper and tempest brings auras, superspeed, condi-to-boon conversion, stealth etc. Druid brings no such additional worthwhile utility except the immob at the moment (and the druid pet is borderline completely useless in large fights). Soulbeast without its immob doesn't really bring anything other classes can't do better, mainly herald.

And dragon banners should just be removed.

> @"mistsim.2748" said:

> > @"HeadCrowned.6834" said:

> > > @"mistsim.2748" said:

> > > Druid buffs are a step on the right direction. I like the immob bomb on staff 4, pretty significant. It is clear you guys really don't want any kind of hybrid build on the druid, as you keep pushing their support abilities.

> > >

> > > I don't think these changes will be enough, but it's nice to see something. The profession can definitely get out of hand quickly.

> >

> > What did you smoke my man?

>

> The good stuff, obviously.

>

> The numbers they tweaked aren't small, they're quite significant. But they arguably didn't tweak enough.

>

> You can heal more now, have another immob bomb, and can reliably use glyphs to condi cleanse (with the trait). In other words, you don't need to slot additional condi cleanse beyond 2 glyphs, and the Celestial trait.

>

> If you understood this, you'd see that the side-noder capability of the druid got some serious buffs.

You're taking it for granted that Lesser Seed of Life from the glyph trait gets the same treament as the avatar skill.

Which it needs, but won't be surprised if it stays as one cleanse.

> @"Fire Attunement.9835" said:

>In competitive game modes, druids have been seen significantly less use for their supportive abilities, so we're tuning those up to encourage bringing the affected traits and glyphs.

>

It's great that you are finally looking at druid, but I can tell you right now that these changes listed here, while not necessarily bad, won't do much. You're regularly doing reworks on other classes' traits - it's about time you start looking at some of the druid traits, the staff skills and the glyphs if you want to encourage people to play druid for its support abilities. Small number tweaks aren't what druid needs the most.

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> Druid wasn't even capable back in beta when it was so utterly broken you could basically be in permanent CA form the entire night but just walking around with regen on yourself outside of combat

>

> It would need nearly every CA skill as well as all of staff reworked to be anywhere close to what scrappers and FB bring while being as tanky

For once maybe you could reply to what I'm actually saying instead of spouting out meaningless shit that is neither here nor there? I literally said "if Anet did some smart changes to it, it could be capable". That obviously includes the outdated staff and a couple of CA skills, and a some of the traits. In small scale (group of 15-25 ish) it's already useable as an on-off in the squad despite all the nerfs.

I never said anything about being close to or replacing Scrappers and FBs, engie got a broken condi conversion trait and FBs farts out unique and important boons and other defensive utilities like there is no tomorrow. And let's be real, guardian is never being replaced. Purity of Purpose? Might be yeeted out of the game one day, might not. Scrappers still has the stealth gyro to secure a couple of squad spots anyways.

SB will never get a decent squad build. It lacks the weapon for it, and the GS, bow and axes have recieved consecutive nerfs making them even worse than they were. Druid might, if Anet ever gets around to do some work on it (requires less work, fewer and more concise and focused changes than the bucket list of changes this thread introduces). If not we have to play the waiting game for the next elite spec - again. Thereby making the topic of this thread pointless.

First of all, Soulbeast lacks a good zerg weapon. GS would have been decent if Hilt Bash had more targets, but it would still want a second good weapon. Unfortunelately, we're left with a dagger that should have been a core weapon to begin with. SB's zerg viability was dead on arrival, even though a permanently merged pet for new skills and stat bonuses + shareable stances looked good on paper.

Not sure why're you're bringing up cleanses to begin with. Druid is not just better suited at it, but pretty decent at it comparatively to other support builds. The main issue is that Engie's Purity of Purpose is stupidly broken and undermining other cleanse options. Druid could be quite capable in zergs if Anet made some smart changes to it. Even with all the nerfs it's still useable as a one-off in in smaller squad skirmishes and GvGs, immobilizing inside warrior bubbles while providing heals and cleanses.

Sadly, I don't think Anet will be smart about it. Chances are they will probably just make it worse at that one immob job it currently has because people hate "that cancer" and Anet will cater to the complaints eventually.

> @"LughLongArm.5460" said:

> this will be one of those traits that will limit the potential of new F2 abilities for the rest of this game life time.

>

Are we gonna pretend that Anet has ever been ambitious about the pets' F2 skills? Arguably the best of the bunch wouldn't even be an F2 skill if we hadn't convienced them of how backwards it would be to put the smokescales' smoke field as one of its automated skills.

Given that refreshing BM CD on pet swap is out of the picture with the recent trade-off, I'd gladly take this. Though I would honestly take just about anything over Eternal Bond. Why does that useless GM still exist?

> @"SoulSlavocracy.4902" said:

>I have never seen anything more absurdly unbalanced.

You're right. When you add up all the nerfs druid has gotten over the years, and Anet's complete lack of reinventing this supposed support elite spec, it gets a bit absurd.

Of course, you're not gonna give two shits about that once the immob is gone and druid is left further behind.

> @"GUFF.5692" said:

> > @"Lazze.9870" said:

> > > @"GUFF.5692" said:

> > > Yes, I think it is the main reason the majority of Rangers choose this pet.

> > >

> > > Ask yourself, if they took away smoke cloud from the pet would you still choose it? I would wager no.

> > >

> > > Stealth is simply way too powerful to overlook. It can be used for defensive purposes but also to set up devastating offensive tactics.

> >

> > It's not like any other pet can replace that stealth, so even disregarding the replacement F2, it would guaranteed still be a top pick due to its combination of other skills and ability to stick to moving targets better than most other pets.

>

> I don't agree.

>

> I guarantee most rangers would lose a lot more of their fights without smokescale F2. It carries bad builds and bad rangers simply because there is not enough counter play in regards to stealth right now. Take smokescale F2 away and watch those rangers flop.

>

> Like I said before, they balance stealth like they should then no problem. They don't, then we still have a problem.

You say you don't agree, but you're not bringing up any arguments to what I said at all.

Smokescale is an excelent pet even without the F2, relatively to a lot of the garbage/one-trick-pony pets the class currently has. That's a fact. If those rangers would flop without the stealth, they would flop with most other pets aswell.

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> It's now in line with every other skill of the sort, not a nerf and definitely not unfair.

Except it's an otherwise complete garbage signet on a class that deals several of its attacks in multihits, apart from the GS and WI.

Ofc, people can't even see that, so what's the point..