Lazze.9870

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Sometimes it feels like a lot of you guys here in this ranger forum aren't so strongly understanding competitive aspects of ranger/druid/soulbeast.

>

> For example, just the removal of evade frame from Staff #3 AG, was a detrimental change that removed Druid's ability to survive being ran over by a zerg, as example. But post after post I keep seeing people insist on these weird changes in strange places to make "Druid good in pvp or wvw" and it just isn't going to work while removing all of these key aspects that are very seriously required for any level of disengage/escape at all, or even enough sudden sustain when needed.

Cut the patronizing act. I'm well aware of how detrimental the removal of that evade was from the perspective of PvP player or a WvW roamer. I also play as the sole druid in a WvW skrim/zerg guild currently playing in T1-T2 EU - I doubt you do.

You're talking from the perspective of a druid that isn't playing in an organized squad to begin with. And yeah, sure, a solo roaming druid likely dies when ran over by a zerg because it no longer has that evade, whereas it might have escaped or sustained itself before. But that doesn't mean druid can't have a "functional role" in WvW without it.

From a hypothetical perspective where druid provides support tools good enough for proper squad play, replacing/competing with a scrapper or a tempest, the existence of that evade is not nearly **as** important (don't get me wrong, it would still be **really** nice to have). Neither is the stun break from Druidic Clarity. The movement of an organized squad doesn't rely on each individual's weapon evades.

I have read several of your comments on the PvP forums. I agree with a lot of your points. But I do not agree with the sentiment that these suggestions render it "not functional" in WvW. From the perspective of a WvW raider, most of OP's suggestions are miles better than what druid offers today.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630"

>

> Some of your suggestions are good but others would bury the class competitively and render it no longer functional in competitive modes.

None of these suggestions renders it "not functional" in wvw, quite the opposite. I'm gonna assume wvw qualifies as a competetive mode.

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> they don't seem to attempt to design things with the intention of altering the meta

Well.... They certianitly altered druid's position in the competetive pvp meta from being a "viable" pick or at least a part of the discussion to being completetly guttered and nowhere near that meta. I never like its sidenoder role, but still.

And they certainly gave warrior a support role in wvw with their tactics rework some months ago, a role it didn't have prior to the changes.

I find it down right unfair if they have just decided that druid will never be a part of that discussion.

> @"GUFF.5692" said:

> Yes, I think it is the main reason the majority of Rangers choose this pet.

>

> Ask yourself, if they took away smoke cloud from the pet would you still choose it? I would wager no.

>

> Stealth is simply way too powerful to overlook. It can be used for defensive purposes but also to set up devastating offensive tactics.

It's not like any other pet can replace that stealth, so even disregarding the replacement F2, it would guaranteed still be a top pick due to its combination of other skills and ability to stick to moving targets better than most other pets.

> @"Sandzibar.5134" said:

> Then youve got certain popular thief main twitch streamers screaming for even more ranger nerfs every chance they get.

The vast majority of thief streamers/youtubers I have seen throw shade at ranger at every single opportunity they get. 8 years and some of them still get spasms from talking about how Rapid Fire channels into their stealth.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"Lazze.9870" said:

> > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > I don’t honestly want druid to become a support. I feel like a build with longbow and ancient seeds could be good, but they just need to make it stronger at what it does

> >

> > It has a staff with four healing skills and one cleanse. It has an avatar where four out of five skills are healing.

> >

> > It's not about becoming support, it is about being actually viable at it. Ancient Seed is a cancer trait that no one likes, druid shouldn't be built around it to begin with.

>

> I mean it’s always been like that but never viable at all as a support, but ok...

But ok? What requires less work? Shuffling and improving underused support aspect of druid to achieve what it clearly was designed for, or reworking almost the entire spec into some cancerous CC bot that will just put wood under the fire regarding all the ranger hate?

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> I don’t honestly want druid to become a support. I feel like a build with longbow and ancient seeds could be good, but they just need to make it stronger at what it does

It has a staff with four healing skills and one cleanse. It has an avatar where four out of five skills are healing.

It's not about becoming support, it is about being actually viable at it. Ancient Seed is a cancer trait that no one likes, druid shouldn't be built around it to begin with.

Imagine dying consistently to pets.

> @"Eleazar.9478" said:

> Skill 2 on staff should be a aoe blind around target, the 2 is really lame

It shouldn't be a slow moving targeting skill to begin with.

> @"Strider.7849" said:

> I'm not sure why you're getting so emotional over it. You mentioned I'm stubborn about one or two elite specs which is incorrect. Literally, right after where you clipped I said if they started releasing all future elite specs with lack of pet.

>

> Different interactions with pets are more than welcome and a total rework of druid is needed at this point. There are people that want the pet to totally disappear in all forms, no interactions - that is my issue with it. You mentioned wisps being a change, yeah? You agreed with me in a thread not that long ago on that exact suggestion.

>

> I feel that you woke up on the wrong side of the bed and are just seeing everything I say as negative. As for that cyric guy, I gave a short, stupid response, to a short, stupid, comment.

I'm just tired of Anet's treatment of druid. That certainly puts me in a bad mood whenever I talk about it. A whisp mechanic would possibly only keep the pets in spirit, so to say, you wouldn't interract with it like a core ranger does. So when I see you talking about taking pets away, I interpret that as you wanting to keep the core aspect of the pet mechanic intact (as in having a pet to control the same way core ranger does at all times)). I don't think that benefits druid at all.

If you're fine the druid changes suggested in said post, as in them not physically being there as an entity that does damage or takes damage, then sure, we're pretty much on the same page. I guess the difference is that I'd also gladly remove the pet altogether if that meant druid benefited from it, but that druid manifesto is certainly the best idea I have seen for druid and shows that you don't need to completely "remove" it.

> @"Strider.7849" said:

> As for Druid it has a large amount of problems, with or without the pet and I don't think that having one is holding it back from being something greater - they even made changes not that far in the distant past that affected Druid everywhere because of raid content and because of core ranger spirits to name a couple examples of non-pet related changes.

There is no point debating that a mechanic like the pet, that offers ZERO value to druid in terms of support capabilities, is holding the spec back from being able to perform in viable support roles in all modes. Removing it (using removing loosely), making it into some sort of animal whisp or anything of that sort that would allow them to balance druid in a way that either bolster its current support or add more support to it in place of the pet would benefit it greatly - without overpowering it as a sidenoder or dueler, which is the only thing pets add to druid. Reworking outdated pets won't change that.

Your pet class will always be there in core ranger and whatever elite spec they make in the future that doubles down on "beastmastery". Soulbeast is also still very much a pet class.

I honestly find it weird being so stubborn about it that having one or two elite specs that don't interract with pets the same way core ranger does is akin to "taking pets away from you". You rather want an even worse AI than core ranger has, due to the stat penatly from picking druid, instead of having a good support spec which should be the main reason for playing druid in the first place.

If every ranger elite spec is going to have that same pet mechanic as core ranger has, you're only limiting the possibilities.

> @"Strider.7849" said:

> If you want a petless longbow character I recommend dragon hunter. I don't want to lose mine.

That wasn't really even a good suggestion before soulbeast. People often play ranger because of how the weapons and skills feel, the theme of the class etc. Those themes are more than just animals. Dragonhunter has never been close to that. No other either profession for that matter.

I bet they often regret making an optional mechanic in GW1 a main mechanic in GW2. The pet is the source of most of the problems this class have. If possible and done right, bypassing the pet for certain elite specs is the best thing they can do. SB could easily do it, and druid would be way better off without if it meant a better support mechanic. Core ranger is still the your current best option to make the most out of using the pets, other elite specs in the future might double down on that aspect of the class even further.

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> This would have a completely different thematical flavour. With one pet to merge and unmerge with, it gives you the feeling of having a deep spiritual connection with your pet. It is your one and only real soulmate, you trust each other deeply.

>

> Being permanently merged and just switching between 2 different pets wouldn't have that feeling. It would either feel more like a shaman who just channels the spirits of animals or (the worse case) you are abusing your pets by sacrificing them to gain more power.

No one should care about that at all if it meant the elite spec worked better, felt better and was easier to balance while still keeping a thematical flavor that works.

_The bond between a soulbeast and their pet is so strong that they can become one in spirit. By channeling their pet, they become a single entity, attacking with fanglike dagger strikes and using the abilities of their companion and its archetype.._

You can literally just change one or two words and the description still works perfectly fine.

Permanently merged with two pets would have made it easier to balance while giving the spec a clear trade off. I suggested that way back when PoF launched. It would have dumbed it down a bit (a lot), but they ended up doing that with the trade-off we got anyways.

But also I think druid needs a "complete pet removal" to justify having access to support that makes it more relevant than it is today. And if I had to pick between a druid with no pet, but stronger support, or a permanently merged SB, I pick the former.

> @"Strider.7849" said:

> Lastly, as you mentioned it being a spirit bot, this change to spirits was supposed to make the druid feel more active. It has NOT had that effect and in fact it feels like it's done the opposite. You literally spam them off cooldown in any environment other than raids just to keep them up with a group. The effects/cast are so slow it actually feels tedious to play. In a raid, at best the only active engagement you have with them is saving the active skill for a CC or to reposition the idiots from getting blown up by aoe. It's legit frustrating as to why they didn't just nerf/change the class but dumbed it down and in my opinion killed it.

Haven't done much PvE lately, but I did some strike missions playing druid and that was my exact thought aswell. Spirits don't promote a very active playstyle to begin with, it wasn't in GW1 either. And I honstely think that's fine if the build only brought one, maybe two depending on the fight.

But when your entire skill bar is filled with spirits? Eh... I mean, the fact that Anet think druid is fine because of spirits, and also made spirits dependent on druid is bad enough. It is almost as if we have to remind them that druid came with glyphs, several of which could need some work, not the core ranger spirits

The fact that I don't think we will ever see anything like OP is suggesting, just makes talking about it borderline upsetting.

IMO should all Marksmanship GM traits refresh Opening Strike in addition to their baseline functionalities, while still reserving the damage modifer on opening strike to Remorseless. For Lead the Wind I'd want it to refresh on stealth, as longbow has access to it, in addition to reduced recharge and piercing for the bow itself. Mainly to solve the issues with the minor traits, but you could still interact more with the trait than what you currently do.

Instead they keep feeding us boring stuff like this. Much better than the swiftness meme we had before it, but even if it's good when chasing down someone, it's not fun to play around with, nor does it feel rewarding. And I'm sure the regular pew pew haters don't like it either.

> @"Strider.7849" said:

> > @"Lazze.9870" said:

> > I'd take this over what we have today eleven out of ten times, that's for sure.

>

> Have to agree here. I used to love druid and main it, but after all the nerfs it's only extremely boring to play in PvE (the spirits change really hurt it as well - not to mention only druid can sustain the things). At this point I'm willing to just let go and say rebuild the whole thing from the ground up. It can't get much worse than it already is.

In a support role I never really liked it as it has always been on the clunkier side. But it still had fun builds back when HoT launched. Now Anet seems to be content with it as long is it has that one spirit bot role in PvE.

At that point I say scrap it, rebuild it, focus on pure support so that it can actually perform as a support in all modes. I'd rather have that than these meme immobilize builds that show up in competetive modes every now and then.

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> Getting back to your question, I do think that is just one of the unfortunate flaws of my idea. There are things that would still be different from Soulbeast's interactions, such as pet-swap traits triggering from wisp swap, but otherwise there would be that same overlap and odd, unpolished interaction that Soulbeast has with the core class. Empathic Bond being one of the worst (best?) examples of this, having no interaction while merged. It would be nice if ANet took the time to polish some of this stuff up, as well as polish core/underused pets and merged skills to better incentivize taking Soulbeast since petswap is removed.

>

Empathic Bond is one of those traits that should be completely reworked anyway. If they make it into something the druid can take advantage of in a support setting, that's even better. All other elite specs which are used as support in competetive modes have at least a few core traits that works in tandem with the elite spec. Ranger has nothing except personal sustain, which apart from being an important source to fill up CA, is just that.

I feel like Anet did several changes to core ranger that benefited Soulbeast. Like merging the traits that gave you and your pet an opening strike into one trait, so that it wouldn't be a completely dead trait in beastmode, or simply buffing traits that had synergy with SB, or reworkin them until they had some synergy. They barely did anything like that for druid.

The obvious and only solution is to make those effect work like SB does. And it should be like that for any elite spec that removes, merges or whatever with the pets.

The only thing to make sure of is that those specs don't overlap with Soulbeast in the damage potential department or playstyle. The playstyle presented here is already different enough and as far as damage potential goes... Well, that's easy: give druid support abilities and nothing else. Don't bother with offensive options. Hell, keep the current malice idea of reduced pet stats and instead apply them to the druid. Something like effects and skills normaly affecting your pet are less effective when affecting you. At that point you can individually balance each effect in the same vain they are doing with SB.

As far as downstate goes, being that the wisp is tied to archtype, just make it so that the two swapable archtypes are chosen by picking two corresponding pets. Those two pets are the ones summoned while in downstate.

I have said mulitple times before that the pet needs to be "removed" in some way or another if druid is to ever be a competent support spec, and I stand by that. If you play ranger because of the pet (I have no idea why that would be your main reason to do so) core ranger is your best option anyways until a pet focused elite spec, that doesn't involve merging like SB does, shows up.

I'd take this over what we have today eleven out of ten times, that's for sure.

> @"Valar Dotalis.6409" said:

> The funniest part is rangers who think their build takes skill defending 30k+ burst damage like it wasn't OP. As for "withstanding" 30k damage, he bursted through warclaw hp, normal hp, and downstate hp. This isn't about the HP I have, it's the insane damage that rangers were able to dish out even after the first nerf. 19.5k damage for pressing F3 is so skillful, fair, and balanced, you guys.

It's funnier that thief players in WvW talk about what "takes skill" to begin with.

The fact of the matter is that ranger is barely represented in the wvw or the pvp meta, outside of roaming. Any class can roam or duel. I have no intention to sit and defend some of the burst capabilities a soulbeast _had_, but it is fucking ridiculous that this class barely can catch a break when it fringes on being closer to the meta.

We have a fucking support focused elite spec, and yet ranger has never had a proper support role in competetive game modes (sidenoder with heals and Search & Rescue niche don't count). Instead we get these meme immobilize druid builds that are never really meta, but will still get nerfed because they are annoying and people are crying about everything.

People have 0 interest in seeing this class as a viable option in PvP, or as anything other than a roamer or nuisance in WvW. Most people barely tolerate the latter.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> - SB just shouldn't interact with core commands and pets buff on weapon skills like they are a pet.

That's a core design feature of the elite specialization. You're dumbing down an elite spec to simply be "here, get rid of that dumb AI, get a couple of skills in return... oh, and your weapon effects now have no effect when you use this mechanic".

No. What they need to do is to individually balance all the effects as they are when you're merged, like they've already done several times. It doesn't affect core ranger anyway. The only real problem with Soulbeast (granted that we can't redesign it) is that Anet CLEARLY never sat down and properly balanced every single trait and skill that would affect a merged SB (including the pet skills themselves). It's ridiculous that Sic 'Em originally had its full 40 % modifier outside of PvE (it's also kind of ridiculous that this "overpowered spec" depends on that modifier in PvE, but that's a whole other story).

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Reread the notes. The reason why cmc stated they didn't want to nerf Sic em is it requires a utility slot and is a core ranger skill.

Nerfing the effect of Sic 'em in beastmode has absolutetely no effect on core ranger.

Normaly I would agree with not nerfing a core aspects of a class unless the core aspects is _the_ problemmaker. Which is also why I think they could have spared the additional GS nerfs for now. But as far as Sic' em or any other effect that would normaly only apply to the pet, it's completely irrelevant.

> @"Waisenpai.6028" said:

> Every power class has been nerfed, I guess there are some buffs in the new expansion. Sadly they favor condi zerg meta over power roaming for now.

You know this is an additional patch to the one where everyone got nerfed?

They're gonna go ahead and nerf Sic Em or/and some of the modifiers for pets in Marksmanship as well. Just wait and see.