Nephalem.8921

> @lorddarkflare.9186 said:

> But the nerfs are coming. Firebrand, Weaver, and Scourge are not going to survive the first balance patch unscathed.

Nerfs to other specs wont improve holosmith. It will improve core engi viability but not holosmith.

> @Kryil.6045 said:

> > @Aldath.1275 said:

> > > @twobears.5713 said:

> > > I also am thoroughly enjoying the Holosmith. It's like a miniature Daredevil. It hits like a truck but has paper-thin health. The heat mechanic is also very enjoyable. It's a high risk-high reward spec. I also love how the lore has us using Zephyrite technology. Don't change a thing.

> >

> > Lol what. I invite you to grab a staff Daredevil, or even a rifle Deadeye, and come here and tell me they do even close to the same damage. I have a fully geared berserker holosmith, all ascended except armor, and he's taking more to kill them my exotic Berserker rifle Deadeye with rare accessories... Not to mention Daredevil and Deadeye have more survivability.

> >

> > I mean I like my engi too enough to become poor to complete his elite spec collection but come on, stop saying it hits like a truck because once the benchmarks come in you'll see we're doing reaper numbers.

>

>

> According to general attempts that number was kinda lucky so holo could need a slight buff, but that's it.

That test wasn't realistic. It used revs ferocity trait and all condis. Condis depend heavily on composition. Without necro / rev / condi engi even the 10 aren't realistic.

32-33k seem more realistic if you assume 7 or 8 condis and no ferocity boost. When was the last time you saw a power rev in raids/fracs?

> @kaesebrezen.3104 said:

> > @Rhomulos.2089 said:

> > Griever's is incredibly bad on its own because of no expertise, it isn't comparable to vipers having no ferocity.

>

> No, Griever's is not incredibly bad.

>

> Expertise is not universally good. Expertise is a stat that is largely dependent on your damage breakdown.

> Expertise has two "requirements": As little power damage as possible, plus many conditions with equal damage spread.

>

> Condition Engineer has a damage breakdown that is actually very poor for Expertise.

> A very high contribution of a single condition (burn), followed by medium contribution of a second condition (bleed).

> Then is still a good junk of power damage, that is only "low" due to all the expertise you have, which pushes condition #2 ahead of it.

>

> Grenade Kit is the single biggest contributor to power damage on Condi Engineer.

> Grenade Kit is the single biggest contributor to bleed damage on Condi Engineer.

>

> You're effectively gearing expertise to maximize the bleed provided by grenade kit, while grenade kit adds so much power damage that you'd actually want ferocity.

>

> If you're going for condi engi + holo instead of tools, you're adding signficant more burn and trading grenade power for holo power. Go for Grieving, cap burning with balthazar (or flame legion), and replace grenade kit with something that actually adds damage (flame turret or rocket boots), instead of wasting stats on expertise to max whatever minimal bleeding damage remains.

Ferocity is bad with low power / crit chance though and a burn duration trait is on the same tier as the strongest damage multiplier. I doubt that you can reach the dps of core condi engi with grieving. Have you tried the build and have actual numbers?

I like the concept and skills but it is super undertuned. Sword is weaker than bombs and they removed the 10% bomb aa trait months ago on top.

Some traits are too weak in general. Why do the 15% damage only apply while in forge and while above 50 heat? Thats a double limitation.

Solar fosussing lens is too weak on power and it is the only damage trait on first tier.

The whole damage spec lacks damage options in the traitline.

Traitline reminds me of that terrible scrapper line. All skills look awesome though.

> @Rhomulos.2089 said:

>

> Condi Holo is a dps increase to core condi engi, while both out DPS any power build engi has.

>

> Griever's is incredibly bad on its own because of no expertise, it isn't comparable to vipers having no ferocity.

I'm not sure if condi holo is a dps increase over core. Can you reach 34k+ with holo?

What rotation, utilities do you use when doing so? It has awesome burst but get better results with core condi.

Kit cd prevents normal condi rotation so i don't know where to improve.

Reached 33k but core is still higher

What real problems with dps? All the tests are done with normal raid/fractal buffs.

Only self buffs applies only to solo dungeons / fractals and partly pvp.

Justifying low damage with self buff potential destroyed pve balance since forever.

Also staff weaver has perma fury and some might stacks on his own. Add sigil of strength + runes of strength and he sits at close to 25 self might.

Perma quickness wont go away. Especially with firebrand. Removing Alacrity hurts everyone except power thiefs.

Buffing burn duration will improve condi holo dps. I get better results with condi holo than with power holo in the first place.

It doesn't have a defined role as power spec. 2 traits and photon blitz are clearly condi orientated.

I would like a more defined role because right now its mediocre in both. Photon blitz could be a real condi or power skill. 3rd forge skill should hit way harder and they should get rid of the easy might stack purpose of that. Make it a blast finisher instead to involve some skill for might.

What i meant is that it needs serious buffs and its not likely they will do it. Right now it is self-sufficient in the offensive buff department. They never buff those builds to deal good dps. Except for maybe warr because reasons.

Just look at necro. They justified shit necro damage with high might stack potential and a useless shroud for years.

Just remember the dev reasoning for the nerf.

"It’s fairly safe to say that Holosmith was doing a little too much damage during the demo weekend".

While it could be on par with soulbeast and scourge. But most likely wouldnt.

> @Adamantium.3682 said:

> I am disappointed in the damage levels but I find the design very fun. I think it's easy to fix and while I don't have a ton of confidence it will be I don't think anything needs to go back to the drawing board. Fix the PF weapon quality bug, buff sword, and maybe give a damage boost to one of the traits and it would be much closer to where it needs to be.

double the duration of the burning trait. triple burning duration of photon blitz. revert the pve nerf. Thats some "slight" buffs it needs.

> @HotHit.6783 said:

> I believe Engineers will be meta, but it will likely be as a DPS slot in a condi group because of Pinpoint Distribution.

> Power Holosmith might become a meta by being the highest DPS Power spec, but CEngi is the only engi build with some kind of unique selling point. Though Pinpoint Distribution is one of the weakest condi amping effects (and not simply venom effects like Sun Spirit, Justice, etc. but Grace of the Land and similar), it's still our selling point for PvE groups.

Power engi also uses pinpoint distribution because there is no other choice on that tier. You don't need fury or shorter rifle cds.

Highest power spec is still elementalist by far. Holosmith is comparable to dragonhunter on small hitbox but way harder to play.

Now is the time to be angry if they don't buff it hard. Second elite spec you can't use in pve because it lowers your dps.

With the current state of guard and other op builds even 10 target cap on pinpoint wouldn't save us.

Holosmith concept was pure in your face damage but it gets outdamaged by support concepts like scourge and firebrand. Traits are a mess too. First tier lacks a non pvp power choice. Why does the ranged aa trait reduce your damage by 10%? It already generates more heat. Even if you could stay all the time in forge you would get outdamaged by some specs. Its that undertuned.

I also don't like the easy might stack potential because they always use this as an excuse for low scalings. It should be hard and rewarding to stack 25 might solo and not press 1 button and stay above heat threshold.

> @Despot.3048 said:

> Not every Elite spec has to have a place in pvp.

>

> Just saying

Its shit in pve too. So where does it have a place? Open world stuff? A whole elite just for spaming 1 at open world bosses. Good spec agree

> @Dahkeus.8243 said:

> > @Nephalem.8921 said:

> > Holosmith is not a damage build though. It is a glorified might stacking build for solo play.

> > It does flashy stuff like power reaper but doesn't really have high sustained damage.

> > Numbers look high in solo play because of the easy 20+ might stacks but it is just weak in a group setting.

> > Since pvp already has his own elite spec it shouldnt be balanced around pvp and buffed in pve first. If nothing changes engi will be the pof necro with all the new power creep. Why take an engi with 34k dps on optimal rotations when guard / ele do much more with easier rotations?

> >

> > Scourge can reach 38k and maybe more. Engi is in terms of dps 2nd last now.

> >

> > All holosmith traitline adds is some damage to power engi and good self might stacking.

> >

> > No you are not missing something. Holosmith is a balance failure.

> > They need to get rid of the easy might stack and add some actual damage on the forge skills.

> > Guard and weaver are so overtuned that even pinpoint distribution won't save our raid spots.

>

> So...where are you getting your benchmarks from? Do you think that someone has found the optimal holo build/rotation already?

>

> Or are you just basing your comparison off of the massively broken weaver/firebrand 45-50k benchmarks? If so, by that logic, everything is a failure except for 2 builds.

My own benchmarks and benchmarks of friends. Forge has a kit lock so hard rotations aren't really possible. I compare holo to all builds i know and not only pof ones.

I would be glad if you could prove me wrong. Show me a realistic holo build with 35k+ dps. Soulbeast, Berserker, Daredevil do all more damage than old engi. You don't even need broken pof specs to beat holo.

Holosmith is not a damage build though. It is a glorified might stacking build for solo play.

It does flashy stuff like power reaper but doesn't really have high sustained damage.

Numbers look high in solo play because of the easy 20+ might stacks but it is just weak in a group setting.

Since pvp already has his own elite spec it shouldnt be balanced around pvp and buffed in pve first. If nothing changes engi will be the pof necro with all the new power creep. Why take an engi with 34k dps on optimal rotations when guard / ele do much more with easier rotations?

Scourge can reach 38k and maybe more. Engi is in terms of dps 2nd last now.

All holosmith traitline adds is some damage to power engi and good self might stacking.

No you are not missing something. Holosmith is a balance failure.

They need to get rid of the easy might stack and add some actual damage on the forge skills.

Guard and weaver are so overtuned that even pinpoint distribution won't save our raid spots.

Does anybody know why the Forge aa range trait reduces damage by 10%? The modifier on explosions was removed months ago. The dev probably forgot that anyways.

Forge hits for less than thief staff and is gated by heat. I don't want to run core engi for another 2 years in pve again.

Meanwhile weaver sits at 48k+ dps.

Even with full raid buffs forge 4 hits for only 50k. The last nerf needs to be reverted and condi durations need a buff. 1sec and 2sec base duration on the burning traits/skills are too low.

Next balance patch will take like 4 months anyways so enough time to exploit the op guard / ele specs.

I tried Vipers and Berserker. Haven't found a decent rotation yet. Was anyone able to get 34k+ dps?

I got the best result with 3 kits + new elite on condi with vipers. The kit swap cd prevents normal engi rotations and why do the 15% dmg only apply in forge anyways?

It is nice for open world because of boon generation but forge just doesn't do enough damage to justify the heat or lock mechanic.

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> Source for the 32k holo?

Not sure if griever stats would work but forge is undertuned. You can reach like 34k with condi but so can core engi.

Holo forge aa is lower than thief staff and limited by heat.

Try holosmith yourself. Nice for open world but lacks damage for fractals and raids.

This abomination of weaver needs a fast nerf. Too many modifier on traits.

> @Skuzz.6580 said:

> > @Bratec.7136 said:

> > Can ArenaNet please look at this? We already have in LFGs many list DPS only as Ele/DH for highlvl group content. Drastically increase damage even more, is it intended?

>

> Conclusion, find a guild and do that content yourself with any group setup you like.

> No content in this game requires a full group of 30k+ dps..

Why would you take the 32k dps holosmith if you could take weaver instead for a raid?

There is no reason to run someting else than ele for the dps spots in fractals now. Add tempest defense and impact sigil on top of it. Which build can compete?

You can't defend this numbers.

> @Adamantium.3682 said:

> > @Nephalem.8921 said:

> > Holosmith the glass cannon with just the glass part. Forge lacks damage. Burn duration with 1sec too low. I don't want to run base engi for another 2years in pve.

> > Whats the point of a "dps" spec that deals less damage than the core engi

>

> If you don't give examples this sounds like just another pointless and baseless whining post.

>

> Traits, gear, did you use raid test arena, rotations, etc...

>

> You may be right! But your post provides no information without context.

I tested with vipers and berserker. Berserker holo with lazer disc and new elite was an improvement over core power but still worse than vipers. Tried vipers with all kits. and 3 kits + new elite. Got best results with 3 kits + new elite but still worse than core with tools.

Forge is just undertuned. Burning duration too low. The 15% modifier only works in forge and when exploding. You need to take the exploding trait for the modifier on bomb aa.

1sec base burning on forge 4 is just too short. same for 2sec base burning on the trait.

You even reduce your dmg now if you take the aa explosion trait on a power build.

The 25% dmg nerf on all forge skills was an overkill.

Meanwhile weaver is beyond broken again. All forge does is selfstack might really good.

It is a glass cannon spec without the cannon part. 16k aa crits in forge on last chain? thats way too low. 40-50k on 4 fullbuffed.

Compared to weaver and renegade this is just lacking damage everywhere

Holosmith the glass cannon with just the glass part. Forge lacks damage. Burn duration with 1sec too low. I don't want to run base engi for another 2years in pve.

Whats the point of a "dps" spec that deals less damage than the core engi