apharma.3741
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Posts posted by apharma.3741
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> @"Robban.1256" said:
> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:
> > > @"Robban.1256" said:
> > > @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
> > > In a recent random sample of 100,000 matches, we found that in approximately 95% of matches, the difference between the average skill rating of each team was less than 50 points. The matchmaker is doing a good job in most cases.
> > Which really doesnt matter, because the scoring system is still kitten up. Its the primary reason people quit sPvP - its been the reason ever since ranked was added. People can whine over classes on the forum all day long, if the mode itself is kitten it doesn't matter.
> >
> > You can have a *good match* that was a hard fight between equally skilled opponents and... loose so much points its unrecoverable unless you win the next 3 matches in a row. Given that many won't even run that many matches in a row if they are into more casual PvP, whats even the point of **trying**? Loose 2-500 or loose 498-500, same thing the game says you suck heres equal penalties for it.
>
> kitten doesnt tell what you are meaning, and you can read everything why on the thesis. Glicko is mathematically better than Elo, but requires more calculation. Elo was conceived around 1970 and could be calculated without a computer. Glicko is only practical with a computer.
> Glicko and Elo should reach the same rating, but Glicko reaches the right rating faster. Glicko-2 is more modern system than Elo and encounters such factors as new people in the pool and changes in strength to adjust speed of rating change.
>
> If two continents implement Glicko or Elo and the players of the two continents never play one another, then when they start playing intercontinental it will always show that one continent is overrated and one is underrated. Only if they play intercontinental will the ratings on both continents equalize.
> That is also the case with FIDE rating and USCF rating: USCF is overrated as compared to FIDE.
>
> The Glicko system isn't just based on your current rating, it also takes into account the volatility of that rating based on the standard deviation of your results over time.
> The variance in point loss/gain for similar point differences has to do with each individual players' rating deviation (uncertainty). Players with high RD will earn or lose more points when they win or lose respectively.
> e.g. -If you loose against a weaker opponent, or win against a stronger opponent, that will affect your rating more than loosing to a stronger opponent or beating a weaker opponent.
>
> I will not reprint the Glick equations here because they are much more complex than the Elo equation, but for the mathematically curious an overview that includes the equations can be found here http://www.glicko.net/glicko.html
>
Sadly I doubt many will read or understand the mechanics of glicko or why it's actually pretty decent with a good population.
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> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:
> > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change.
> > > > >
> > > > > Absolutely not, they're completely different game modes that function on completely different criteria and have their own metas. You can't balance a giant open map game mode with 50+ people per 3 sides with a 5v5 game mode standard. This also isn't even taking into account that every stat, rune, and sigil is available and unnerfed in WvW.
> > > >
> > > > I know there are differences but as the OP stated in the very first post, the difference between the 2 modes can be very extreme, I'm not saying they need to be identical but they should be as close as possible and where there are differences they should be as subtle as possible.
> > > >
> > > > WvW _will never be balanced_ due to different runes, sigils and stats no matter how you try but a more unified balance will ease the dev work as it's 1 set of balance rules instead of 2 (devs have already demonstrated they cannot pump out balance patches on a consistent basis for the multiple modes we have) as well as reducing the shock of cross pollination of players from PvP to WvW and vice versa.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > We had that before and it was extremely frustrating for WvW to suffer because PvP got changes. You can't balance both with the same criteria because it will always be by sPvP standards, making WvW players get the short end of the stick every time. The balance differences need to be as drastic as the game modes demand, which is extreme.
> > >
> > > There should be a shock between going to the different game modes, just as it is from PvE to any other mode; you’re going to a completely different game mode and have to adjust to how it functions.
> >
> > You're incorrect, we had unified balance between **PvE**, WvW and PvP where competitive balance as a whole was shafted due to PvE. Now we have 2 balance modes, PvE where everything is flat out broken and powercrept and competitive where PvP and WvW are more closely aligned but still have major outliers, some of which have caused major problems like 10 target skills making WvW unplayable at times.
> >
> > I am firmly of the belief that skills should not be wildly different moving from 1 game mode to another, I shouldn't have almost half the cool down on one skill in a competitive mode vs another one simply because....? Really some of them have no reason like Dolyak stance where it's over nerfed in PvP but left broken in WvW when the middle ground of 45s cool down would make it an option in both.
> >
> > I guess I disagree with extremism though.
>
> How can you firmly believe skills should have little differences when the game modes they are being balanced around are completely different? You're advocating extremism yourself, an extremely homogenized balance philosophy that **will always be done in favor of sPvP.**
>
> Skills have completely different uses and interactions between the game modes because of the specific environments they're used in. WvW has an infinite number of other potentials to account for as I've already stated, sPvP is tightly controlled and can be much more finely tuned for that environment and specific changes will carry from sPvP, where balance is primarily based on, into WvW which will only be a negative. Did hammer rev need to be nerfed in sPvP because it was strong, and quite literally only used, in WvW? Absolutely not, the changes should have been WvW specific, as should any changes made to potentially make it better in sPvP but not WvW.
>
> Again, you're going to a completely different game mode with completely different rules and a completely different meta, so stop trying to take a mindset from another game mode to it.
It's because I'm not so sightless that I don't realise that we have 61 traits, over 60 skills per class on 9 classes. Skills and traits can never be in a state where they are useful everywhere. There will always be a "meta" pick and configuration but with the amount of combinations in the game there's room for builds to perform differently across multiple game modes **and skills/traits still be the same across all competitve modes.**
Onto your specific example of Rev. Was hammer meta on rev in PvP before it was nerfed? No. Was it meta after? No. Did Anything realistically change for Rev in PvP? No. This is the problem with people complaining about "my stuff got nerfed for X game mode" it was a bad build before and it stays a bad build but is addressed where it matters and doesn't perform unexpectedly different between the modes.
**In other words using a knife to drink soup is bad and always was bad**
The rules are different? The lack of a node, that's about it. Win condition left WvW a loooong time ago.
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> @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change.
> > > > >
> > > > > Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are :
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Dolyak stance
> > > > > 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10
> > > > > 3) Regen traits having longer base duration
> > > > >
> > > > > For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger
> > > >
> > > > Yes and it should be the same for all. You and I are in agreement.
> > >
> > > But that would not change anything in the grand scheme of things in the end anyway if you think about it
> >
> > Then why create the thread in the first place?
> >
> > The other classes need bringing down too, you'd know this if you've seen what the small groups are like at the moment.
>
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change.
> > > > >
> > > > > Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are :
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Dolyak stance
> > > > > 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10
> > > > > 3) Regen traits having longer base duration
> > > > >
> > > > > For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger
> > > >
> > > > Yes and it should be the same for all. You and I are in agreement.
> > >
> > > But that would not change anything in the grand scheme of things in the end anyway if you think about it
> >
> > Then why create the thread in the first place?
> >
> > The other classes need bringing down too, you'd know this if you've seen what the small groups are like at the moment.
>
> Because I believe that even with unnerfed values , the ranger class would still not see major play in PvP , we removed boonbeast- bird tank -bunker druid and sic'em burst and that's great! So why go and double tap on the only useful stance soulbeast has left? Even with a 40s CD dolyak stance there would be no boonbeast , no bunker ..nothing of what happened in the past but at the very least the spec would be more useful for general PvP outside the +1 glass meme
>
> The main reason to use soulbeast is to gain access to an additional source of stability which the class severely lacks, if you want you can go and remove the dmg/condi reduction effects it wouldn't matter ...the stability is the main thing.
>
> And lastly Druid : why the double CD on the main mechanic of the entire spec? Necros don't get a 20s CD to access reaper and desert shroud - tempest don't have to wait 30s to overload...so the druid change really makes no sense, you can go and change the actual traits that make druid strong, reduce their duration/effect in PvP..but allow rangers to access the druid mechanic with the same 10s CD across all game modes
>
> Finally yeah, I know the composition of "roaming" gank team and applying the same changes we have in PvP, would not change that I am afraid
Almost non of this has anything to do with the price of chips.
Continuity between game modes is what I was saying. Regardless of the state of (in) balance, do you agree?
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> @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW.
> > > >
> > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change.
> > >
> > > Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are :
> > >
> > > 1) Dolyak stance
> > > 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10
> > > 3) Regen traits having longer base duration
> > >
> > > For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger
> >
> > Yes and it should be the same for all. You and I are in agreement.
>
> But that would not change anything in the grand scheme of things in the end anyway if you think about it
Then why create the thread in the first place?
The other classes need bringing down too, you'd know this if you've seen what the small groups are like at the moment.
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> @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW.
> >
> > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change.
>
> Really the only things that WvW ranger has over PvP ranger are :
>
> 1) Dolyak stance
> 2) Celestial form CD from 20 down to 10
> 3) Regen traits having longer base duration
>
> For the rest it's basically the same as in PvP, the pets and dmg have been nerfed universally for the class and therefore if you'd change the last things this class has in WvW, same should happen to everybody else like : condi herald , necro and **grenade holo** especially that still enjoy unnerfed values like ranger
Yes and it should be the same for all. You and I are in agreement.
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I think there's a problem a lot of people don't appreciate.
Human's play this game.
To spell it out, you could have won/lost that match for any of the following reasons:
1-10 players had to spend 2 minutes away from their keyboard for a multitude of reasons.
1-10 players were just playing bad that day.
1-10 players were tired due to poor sleep the night before.
1-10 players had lower blood sugar as they forgot to eat on time.
1-10 players got tilted due to the straw that broke the camels back.
1-10 players decided they just don't like someone else on either team and so played differently.
1-10 players disagrees with another person and so causes team conflict.
These are all reasons why people may play differently to normal **and the game has no real way of measuring or taking this into account** so before you start saying the matchmaking is not working stop to think of the logistics of making it work. Then you might realise it's actually doing a decent job, is it perfect? No but good players can climb, bad players by and large end up near the bottom.
"Why do I see bad players in Plat then???" Low population and poor balance of risk/reward, that isn't the matchmakers fault.
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> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW.
> > > >
> > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change.
> > >
> > > Absolutely not, they're completely different game modes that function on completely different criteria and have their own metas. You can't balance a giant open map game mode with 50+ people per 3 sides with a 5v5 game mode standard. This also isn't even taking into account that every stat, rune, and sigil is available and unnerfed in WvW.
> >
> > I know there are differences but as the OP stated in the very first post, the difference between the 2 modes can be very extreme, I'm not saying they need to be identical but they should be as close as possible and where there are differences they should be as subtle as possible.
> >
> > WvW _will never be balanced_ due to different runes, sigils and stats no matter how you try but a more unified balance will ease the dev work as it's 1 set of balance rules instead of 2 (devs have already demonstrated they cannot pump out balance patches on a consistent basis for the multiple modes we have) as well as reducing the shock of cross pollination of players from PvP to WvW and vice versa.
> >
> >
>
> We had that before and it was extremely frustrating for WvW to suffer because PvP got changes. You can't balance both with the same criteria because it will always be by sPvP standards, making WvW players get the short end of the stick every time. The balance differences need to be as drastic as the game modes demand, which is extreme.
>
> There should be a shock between going to the different game modes, just as it is from PvE to any other mode; you’re going to a completely different game mode and have to adjust to how it functions.
You're incorrect, we had unified balance between **PvE**, WvW and PvP where competitive balance as a whole was shafted due to PvE. Now we have 2 balance modes, PvE where everything is flat out broken and powercrept and competitive where PvP and WvW are more closely aligned but still have major outliers, some of which have caused major problems like 10 target skills making WvW unplayable at times.
I am firmly of the belief that skills should not be wildly different moving from 1 game mode to another, I shouldn't have almost half the cool down on one skill in a competitive mode vs another one simply because....? Really some of them have no reason like Dolyak stance where it's over nerfed in PvP but left broken in WvW when the middle ground of 45s cool down would make it an option in both.
I guess I disagree with extremism though.
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> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW.
> >
> > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change.
>
> Absolutely not, they're completely different game modes that function on completely different criteria and have their own metas. You can't balance a giant open map game mode with 50+ people per 3 sides with a 5v5 game mode standard. This also isn't even taking into account that every stat, rune, and sigil is available and unnerfed in WvW.
I know there are differences but as the OP stated in the very first post, the difference between the 2 modes can be very extreme, I'm not saying they need to be identical but they should be as close as possible and where there are differences they should be as subtle as possible.
WvW _will never be balanced_ due to different runes, sigils and stats no matter how you try but a more unified balance will ease the dev work as it's 1 set of balance rules instead of 2 (devs have already demonstrated they cannot pump out balance patches on a consistent basis for the multiple modes we have) as well as reducing the shock of cross pollination of players from PvP to WvW and vice versa.
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Loving the comments on the video. Couldn't have been easy doing your first interview in a non native language, here's a tip for next time:
When you get asked a question ask for 10s to collect your thoughts, quickly write them down, then order them in a logical flow, this can help you come across more succinct and composed.
Always nice to see you playing Jazz, shame no music to add to my spotify list.
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Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW.
Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change.
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If I remember correctly the leap distance on holo leap isn't actually 600, it's something like 450 + 150 is the range of the attack.
Warrior not mobile? What alternate dimension have I woken up in, they're mobile _if they want to be_
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Theif has always been the most mobile class in the game to the point it's been detrimental to the class as it cannot be this mobile and have winning match ups all over. Infiltrators arrow is 5 years too late in it's nerf but this is not how I would have done it.
Take a page from revenant and add small 2-5s cool downs on weapon abilities, reduce the ini cost so you're not ini starved but likewise can't use every skill without thought. If this game has made anything apparent it is that back to back same skill usage has always been a problem when the skills are good, we see this on mesmer, rev, thief and other classes that had reset mechanics.
Mobility on other classes does need to be toned down a bit, when you can use 2 skills and get to the next node in 3s it's a bit much if you also enjoy very good 1v1 capabilites.
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lol that shade, I like it. Glad to see you're still carrying the torch, stay safe Jazz.
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FYI CC skills don't stack, someone hits you with a 3s stun then a 1/2s stun they actually just stunbroke you. I'm pretty sure this works for all hard CC so a thief headshot after a 2s stun actually is the thief throwing.
CC in my opinion needs 2 things doing to it:
1) if it's for interrupting it should be quick casting but last 1/4 to 1/2s. If it's for setting up burst it can be 2-3s but must have a decent cast and tell.
2) in general reduced the number of concurrent CC skills available to classes unless they specifically have traits around interrupt play style.
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If you understood normal distributions you'd know it's not a problem with the algorithm, it's a problem with the population.
As for irregularities, some people decide to not play well because they just don't like you.
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> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:
> The root cause is basically Quickness. Without it, that particular burst combo those Revs are using can be very easily stopped with a single CC ( Power shiro has no stab and only 2 stunbreaks, both of which carry serious downsides ). But because of quickness, that combo can only be realistically dealt with if you are at least slightly ping-carried ( Or have quickness yourself lmao ). There is nothing wrong inherently with the abilities that come along with that Rev combo. There have been many times in the past where power shiro wasn't meta or was even trash tier and it's actually even weaker now then it was back then. But quickness is just busted, and leads to unfun situations like this.
>
> It's one of the reasons why I recommended a change to have quickness stack intensity up to 5 times. Each stack would grant "increases attack and action speeds by 10%". This would allow Quickness to be better balanced on a class-by-class basis.
>
>
Yes, it's quickness that is at fault, not that the ability is stacked to high heaven, smh.
1,200 range teleport.
Does 1.0 coefficient damage, quite decent in todays power level.
Is unblockable.
Gives 2 stacks of unblockable effect.
Grants 3s of quickness.
Realistically an 20s cool down.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Traversal
The only times power rev has not been oppressive is when it's been rendered unplayable for most by the amount of condition classes around. The root cause is that rev abilities are stacked due to the class at it's core being a work in progress and no real guidelines on how to assign universally needed mechanics (stunbreaks, cleanses, various boons/power ups) when used in combinations of traits and legends. Think about it, how can you assign "X gives you Y" when the legends and the entire utility bar can be completely different, say you need extra condition management and take mallyx, how many traits did that used to mess up? How many does it still mess up? How many traits are very passive in activation because of this flawed design?
The reality is rev is a deeply flawed class by design, it is not "basically quickness", you can take that off rev tomorrow and it will still be a deeply flawed class.
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> @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:
> Thanks for response, I guess I will just play my Warrior build out there too.
I mean if you already play warrior there's no reason to play mesmer in WvW outside of you just hate living forever.
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I didn't want to watch you playing a butchered class so I just listened to the music instead. Great tunes and nice to hear you guys chatting!
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > > I don't miss builds literally having everything in 1 package. Many of the people who loved pre Feb patch were playing extremely strong classes which had few weaknesses. Think about it, how many condi builds performed well and why? Yeah the ones that literally looked at you and hit you with 4+ conditions. How many "side noders" performed well? Yeah the ones with 4+ cleanse on one button and very low cool down 2 or more cleanse buttons. Go through all the classes and look at all the skills, specs and weapons used, the one common separator for them was whether they were overloaded or stupidly low cool down.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is this perfect? No and it's a shame ANet has retreated into it's shell half way through a major project holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. This is why you have "condispam" and "bunker everywhere" viewpoints as these are easier to play and much more rewarding but haven't had the sharp tuning down/slight increase to other roles to balance out the risk/reward. Yet look at the MotA games, they were very good, players actually died very quickly to coordinated attacks and tactics became a lot more relevant, it was night and day between those who could rotate and those who were used to the power creep rendering tactics largely irrelevant.
> > > > >
> > > > > I mean of course they died to being outnumbered, thats how it works. Thing is, thats the only way they died. And if they were in a position where neither team was going to outnumber them, well you get the synchronised Sylvari dancing. Also, tactics were extremely important before the patch too. Its just that micro, or mechanical skill, wasnt basically irrelevant.
> > > >
> > > > They didn't just die to being +1, match ups made a difference in a lot of games where you want to swap your side noders out as one scales better in a fight or has a better match up and the game is going in your favour. Rotations and positioning of fights, whether you go 2 node or 3 node, loads of factors were present in the MotA which you wouldn't have seen pre Feb. We know this because we saw it in the monthly AT.
> > > >
> > >
> > > They died just to being outnumbered. We saw what the sidenoder "fights" looked like. Honestly the best one was the 2 Sylvari synchronised dancing around Tranquility because they both knew there was no point at all in fighting. Anyway, yes, rotation is a big thing now, because +1s are the only way you kill people. Here is the thing. Those were also there pre-february. In fact, they were just as important as right now. Its just that unlike right now, they werent the *only* important thing. We just lost micro skill entirely, while gaining nothing. And as a result, sidenoding has become dreadfully unfun. Even with the enjoyment that grenades always bring, Im not fond of just sitting there waiting for my thief to come around and make me able to kill the enemy.
> > >
> > > > One of the problems with the "bunker meta" isn't just a numbers game, it's that they're much easier to play than they are to be killed and condi rev is probably the best example of this which also contributes to the "condi meta" idea. Make the side noders more skilful like current mirage needs and you'd see everyone complaining of a zerg meta.
> > >
> > > Its not really that theyre easier to play. Some of them are, but I wouldnt say that Holo is particularly easy to play. The problem is because you can make multiple major mistakes, and you still wont die. Sidenoders arent skillful because they only have 2 jobs right now. 1, knockback the enemy, and 2, avoid being knockbacked yourself. Everything else doesnt matter, and since both of those tend to stalemate as well, you just see sidenoders messing around waiting for reinforcements. Even if the sidenoders were technically harder builds to play optimally, it wouldnt change a thing, because you dont need to play optimally. The biggest difference would just be that the worse players get knocked back a bit more often.
> >
> > I guess you only watched the NA vs NA games then /shrug.
> >
>
> Nah, I watched the EU games most. Yknow, stuff like Obindo and the enemy rev fighting around Tranquility for 7 minutes without anyone dying. Or hell, Obindos MOTA montage which shows exactly 0 clips of him solo-killing anyone. This is a montage, with the most exciting clips selected, and there isnt one of him solo-killing anyone, because it didnt happen. A few good instant stunbreaks vs knockback though, which is nice, but its sad that that is what sidenoding devolved to.
>
> > "The problem is because you can make multiple major mistakes, and you still wont die." This is a skill issue. Thank you for agreeing. You should be punished for making major mistakes especially multiple times but they aren't because the skill floor is relatively low and the skill ceiling isn't that much higher.
> >
>
> Thats not why they arent punished. A low skill floor just means mistakes are less easy to make. No, they arent punished because, if they screw up, what exactly do you do? You cant kill them. The damage just plain isnt there. If you knock them back you decap the point, but thats already happening, and as I said, its not fun.
>
> > As I said, if a lot of side noders required the same skill as mirages require to even hold the node you wouldn't hear much complaining about "bunker meta" anymore.
>
> Sure, if you put it like that. Problem is, the only way to do that is to bring back a *lot* of damage. Frankly, damage should *never* be lower than pre-HoT specialisation patch at the *lowest*. Right now, it seems were about 20-30% lower than that.
OMEGALUL literally the first clip is of Obindo beating a holo, sure technically the holo died to Zan's barrage but the enemy holo had lost the fight, the node and was pretty much dead regardless. There's more than one way to win in GW2, something you seem to have forgotten in the power creep era.
Low skill floor, low ceiling means that skill is not going to be the deciding factor most of the time no matter what you do even if you slap on more damage. You should note I said "holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. " 1v1 builds don't need more damage or at least not a lot more, they need to be able to spike damage on a moderate cool down **with a set up** required. Otherwise you'll end up with the same problem just that 1v1 builds start dominating the meta. Think old condi chrono just before HoT.
Condi mirage is actually in a decent spot, to kill it needs to set up on a decent cool down and manage it's cool downs. It can spike very hard but unfortunately needs a lot more skill to pull off than equivalent 1v1 builds because it has to kite and will lose the node when it messes up. Your rotations matter more with mirage. That doesn't mean it's perfect and well balanced just more like what 1v1 node holders should be like.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > I don't miss builds literally having everything in 1 package. Many of the people who loved pre Feb patch were playing extremely strong classes which had few weaknesses. Think about it, how many condi builds performed well and why? Yeah the ones that literally looked at you and hit you with 4+ conditions. How many "side noders" performed well? Yeah the ones with 4+ cleanse on one button and very low cool down 2 or more cleanse buttons. Go through all the classes and look at all the skills, specs and weapons used, the one common separator for them was whether they were overloaded or stupidly low cool down.
> > > >
> > > > Is this perfect? No and it's a shame ANet has retreated into it's shell half way through a major project holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. This is why you have "condispam" and "bunker everywhere" viewpoints as these are easier to play and much more rewarding but haven't had the sharp tuning down/slight increase to other roles to balance out the risk/reward. Yet look at the MotA games, they were very good, players actually died very quickly to coordinated attacks and tactics became a lot more relevant, it was night and day between those who could rotate and those who were used to the power creep rendering tactics largely irrelevant.
> > >
> > > I mean of course they died to being outnumbered, thats how it works. Thing is, thats the only way they died. And if they were in a position where neither team was going to outnumber them, well you get the synchronised Sylvari dancing. Also, tactics were extremely important before the patch too. Its just that micro, or mechanical skill, wasnt basically irrelevant.
> >
> > They didn't just die to being +1, match ups made a difference in a lot of games where you want to swap your side noders out as one scales better in a fight or has a better match up and the game is going in your favour. Rotations and positioning of fights, whether you go 2 node or 3 node, loads of factors were present in the MotA which you wouldn't have seen pre Feb. We know this because we saw it in the monthly AT.
> >
>
> They died just to being outnumbered. We saw what the sidenoder "fights" looked like. Honestly the best one was the 2 Sylvari synchronised dancing around Tranquility because they both knew there was no point at all in fighting. Anyway, yes, rotation is a big thing now, because +1s are the only way you kill people. Here is the thing. Those were also there pre-february. In fact, they were just as important as right now. Its just that unlike right now, they werent the *only* important thing. We just lost micro skill entirely, while gaining nothing. And as a result, sidenoding has become dreadfully unfun. Even with the enjoyment that grenades always bring, Im not fond of just sitting there waiting for my thief to come around and make me able to kill the enemy.
>
> > One of the problems with the "bunker meta" isn't just a numbers game, it's that they're much easier to play than they are to be killed and condi rev is probably the best example of this which also contributes to the "condi meta" idea. Make the side noders more skilful like current mirage needs and you'd see everyone complaining of a zerg meta.
>
> Its not really that theyre easier to play. Some of them are, but I wouldnt say that Holo is particularly easy to play. The problem is because you can make multiple major mistakes, and you still wont die. Sidenoders arent skillful because they only have 2 jobs right now. 1, knockback the enemy, and 2, avoid being knockbacked yourself. Everything else doesnt matter, and since both of those tend to stalemate as well, you just see sidenoders messing around waiting for reinforcements. Even if the sidenoders were technically harder builds to play optimally, it wouldnt change a thing, because you dont need to play optimally. The biggest difference would just be that the worse players get knocked back a bit more often.
I guess you only watched the NA vs NA games then /shrug.
"The problem is because you can make multiple major mistakes, and you still wont die." This is a skill issue. Thank you for agreeing. You should be punished for making major mistakes especially multiple times but they aren't because the skill floor is relatively low and the skill ceiling isn't that much higher.
As I said, if a lot of side noders required the same skill as mirages require to even hold the node you wouldn't hear much complaining about "bunker meta" anymore.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > I don't miss builds literally having everything in 1 package. Many of the people who loved pre Feb patch were playing extremely strong classes which had few weaknesses. Think about it, how many condi builds performed well and why? Yeah the ones that literally looked at you and hit you with 4+ conditions. How many "side noders" performed well? Yeah the ones with 4+ cleanse on one button and very low cool down 2 or more cleanse buttons. Go through all the classes and look at all the skills, specs and weapons used, the one common separator for them was whether they were overloaded or stupidly low cool down.
> >
> > Is this perfect? No and it's a shame ANet has retreated into it's shell half way through a major project holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. This is why you have "condispam" and "bunker everywhere" viewpoints as these are easier to play and much more rewarding but haven't had the sharp tuning down/slight increase to other roles to balance out the risk/reward. Yet look at the MotA games, they were very good, players actually died very quickly to coordinated attacks and tactics became a lot more relevant, it was night and day between those who could rotate and those who were used to the power creep rendering tactics largely irrelevant.
>
> I mean of course they died to being outnumbered, thats how it works. Thing is, thats the only way they died. And if they were in a position where neither team was going to outnumber them, well you get the synchronised Sylvari dancing. Also, tactics were extremely important before the patch too. Its just that micro, or mechanical skill, wasnt basically irrelevant.
They didn't just die to being +1, match ups made a difference in a lot of games where you want to swap your side noders out as one scales better in a fight or has a better match up and the game is going in your favour. Rotations and positioning of fights, whether you go 2 node or 3 node, loads of factors were present in the MotA which you wouldn't have seen pre Feb. We know this because we saw it in the monthly AT.
One of the problems with the "bunker meta" isn't just a numbers game, it's that they're much easier to play than they are to be killed and condi rev is probably the best example of this which also contributes to the "condi meta" idea. Make the side noders more skilful like current mirage needs and you'd see everyone complaining of a zerg meta.
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I don't miss builds literally having everything in 1 package. Many of the people who loved pre Feb patch were playing extremely strong classes which had few weaknesses. Think about it, how many condi builds performed well and why? Yeah the ones that literally looked at you and hit you with 4+ conditions. How many "side noders" performed well? Yeah the ones with 4+ cleanse on one button and very low cool down 2 or more cleanse buttons. Go through all the classes and look at all the skills, specs and weapons used, the one common separator for them was whether they were overloaded or stupidly low cool down.
Is this perfect? No and it's a shame ANet has retreated into it's shell half way through a major project holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. This is why you have "condispam" and "bunker everywhere" viewpoints as these are easier to play and much more rewarding but haven't had the sharp tuning down/slight increase to other roles to balance out the risk/reward. Yet look at the MotA games, they were very good, players actually died very quickly to coordinated attacks and tactics became a lot more relevant, it was night and day between those who could rotate and those who were used to the power creep rendering tactics largely irrelevant.
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I got halfway then skimmed the rest, you start out good but you missed the mark. Resistance as a boon is simply too strong. Think about it, it makes you completely immune to all negative effects from conditions and a whole type of damage, if this had a power variant it would be aegis++ where it blocks the next 3 attacks and also means you don't suffer the negative effects of conditions.
Resistance needs to be changed, I said this a long long time ago and so did many others, perhaps it should half condition damage taken (doesn't have to be half, pick a number) and only affect damage conditions.
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> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:
> > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > > One thing I'd like to see is energy cost removed from weapon abilities for rev. Then they can focus on the energy cost/upkeep costs for the utility skills with small cool downs to prevent back to back use.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This means you can start making Glint have costs and upkeep to properly manage without leaving a rev unable to do anything (they can still use weapon skills) for mismanaging the utility cool down. For example you might add a 25 energy cost to facet of light with a 3 energy upkeep until infuse light is used and in conjunction with the rest of the utilities having a cost and upkeep. This means you could make the stunbreak cost 30 energy and 3 upkeep so if you legend swap and hit facet of light you can't stunbreak for 1s and if you use another facet instead of the stunbreak you'll not have enough energy to stunbreak if you upkeep facet of light.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This means you won't be sitting on facets and be encouraged to use them, get some benefit then burn them and think more careful than use strength and element in glint, swap shiro and kite, swap glint and use strength and element again, heal/stunbreak as required without worry.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear god no, shelve this terrible idea.
> > > >
> > > > Glint basically has no energy management thought needed unless you want to sit on passive boons, bringing it in line with the rest of the class is something that's been needed since day 1 of HoT. Removing energy costs from weapon abilities is needed to properly balance rev energy costs.
> > >
> > > That's the entire point of her skills; she's the energy management legend. You decide how much energy you want to dedicate to whatever boons you want, Draconic Echo is another thing entirely to deal with. She's the only legend that actually functions differently from others by only using upkeeps as primary costs, which is actually more in line with what an Espec is supposed to do. What needed to happen from day 1 was removing weapon swap and rebalancing the weapon skills like was originally intended to be which was to be useful across more builds, but they never did it.
> >
> > I played rev with no weapon swap, it wasn't good, the only way to get around it would be for weapon skills to change based on legend used which would be a lot of work every time a new elite spec came which would be unmanageable long term for the dev team. Think about it, every class that has a single weapon has a way to change it's weapon skills or gets extra somewhere else which was missing from rev at it's core concept and couldn't be added without essentially copying another class.
> >
> > "Energy management legend" pull the other one, it was supposed to be about that but it's ended up being the most energy efficient legend by far without needing to really think about energy management and this was **before** draconic echo was added. Glint needs a drastic energy cost change to bring it closer in line with core for energy management or it will forever be a first pick and the rest of the class and it's problems will remain covered by Glint.
>
> I played back with no weapon swap too and I know it was bad, but it's because half the weapons were poorly designed and were static. Utility skills were meant to be a lot stronger to compensate but they were also poorly balanced too with a few exceptions. Ventari was even more of a clunky mess, Jalis was pretty much unusable, Mallyx with self conditioning was a lot of fun but his kit made no sense, and Shiro was by far the best designed. They didn't fix the issues with the design and just slapped weapon swap, but suddenly staff is monstrously OP because you have a second set. Hammer always sucked outside of WvW CoR spam.
>
> Like I said, Draconic Echo is another thing entirely, but Glint being as drastically different as she is was the point of her being an elite spec, even though I believe she should have been a core legend tied to Invocation. She's good because she covers more issues than energy, she provides easy access to important boons and has powerful skills on top of it. She can be good and the rest of the class balanced better as well, butchering Glint will do no good by itself.
They didn't fix it because it was a flawed design to begin with. Think about it, if you offload everything onto the utility slots because you have only 5 weapon skills you have to put defences baked into every weapon set **and** you have to massively bloat all the utility skills to make up for the plethora of skills every other class has as well as the ability to mix and match. This then leads to people complaining that they get hit with these bloated abilities because there's nowhere else to spread the features to due to the legend design, it's bad enough with weapon swap allowing the devs to spread out defensive and offensive skills but it would be a whole lot worse if there was no weapon swap.
As for Glint, who said I was butchering Glint? I wasn't touching the ability damage, function or anything but the energy management side and it was very specifically targeted at preventing people hitting facet of light and sitting on it with no regard to energy management. I want there to be a second (or even a first) thought about which facets you have up and if you might need it soon instead of activate the facets and not have any real drawback for getting those boons or for using them off CD like with elements and strength. If you feel the numbers are off that's fine but there does need to be a higher cost to glint utilities, front loading the cost means you can't fall into a trap of being unable to consume facets and get energy back if you used too many facets which a cost on consume effect would do.
Is Ranger basically the only class with huge penalties in PvP?
in Player vs. Player
Posted
> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:
> > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said:
> > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > > > > Honestly this post highlights a serious issue, that soulbeast in WvW needs to be brought much closer to PvP and should be nerfed in WvW.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Not joking, PvP and WvW balance should be incredibly close in my opinion, most things that are too strong in one mode can be changed in a way that fixes it in one mode and is no change to the other....assuming the skills team graciously allows the balance team to make a change.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Absolutely not, they're completely different game modes that function on completely different criteria and have their own metas. You can't balance a giant open map game mode with 50+ people per 3 sides with a 5v5 game mode standard. This also isn't even taking into account that every stat, rune, and sigil is available and unnerfed in WvW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I know there are differences but as the OP stated in the very first post, the difference between the 2 modes can be very extreme, I'm not saying they need to be identical but they should be as close as possible and where there are differences they should be as subtle as possible.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > WvW _will never be balanced_ due to different runes, sigils and stats no matter how you try but a more unified balance will ease the dev work as it's 1 set of balance rules instead of 2 (devs have already demonstrated they cannot pump out balance patches on a consistent basis for the multiple modes we have) as well as reducing the shock of cross pollination of players from PvP to WvW and vice versa.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > We had that before and it was extremely frustrating for WvW to suffer because PvP got changes. You can't balance both with the same criteria because it will always be by sPvP standards, making WvW players get the short end of the stick every time. The balance differences need to be as drastic as the game modes demand, which is extreme.
> > > > >
> > > > > There should be a shock between going to the different game modes, just as it is from PvE to any other mode; you’re going to a completely different game mode and have to adjust to how it functions.
> > > >
> > > > You're incorrect, we had unified balance between **PvE**, WvW and PvP where competitive balance as a whole was shafted due to PvE. Now we have 2 balance modes, PvE where everything is flat out broken and powercrept and competitive where PvP and WvW are more closely aligned but still have major outliers, some of which have caused major problems like 10 target skills making WvW unplayable at times.
> > > >
> > > > I am firmly of the belief that skills should not be wildly different moving from 1 game mode to another, I shouldn't have almost half the cool down on one skill in a competitive mode vs another one simply because....? Really some of them have no reason like Dolyak stance where it's over nerfed in PvP but left broken in WvW when the middle ground of 45s cool down would make it an option in both.
> > > >
> > > > I guess I disagree with extremism though.
> > >
> > > How can you firmly believe skills should have little differences when the game modes they are being balanced around are completely different? You're advocating extremism yourself, an extremely homogenized balance philosophy that **will always be done in favor of sPvP.**
> > >
> > > Skills have completely different uses and interactions between the game modes because of the specific environments they're used in. WvW has an infinite number of other potentials to account for as I've already stated, sPvP is tightly controlled and can be much more finely tuned for that environment and specific changes will carry from sPvP, where balance is primarily based on, into WvW which will only be a negative. Did hammer rev need to be nerfed in sPvP because it was strong, and quite literally only used, in WvW? Absolutely not, the changes should have been WvW specific, as should any changes made to potentially make it better in sPvP but not WvW.
> > >
> > > Again, you're going to a completely different game mode with completely different rules and a completely different meta, so stop trying to take a mindset from another game mode to it.
> >
> > It's because I'm not so sightless that I don't realise that we have 61 traits, over 60 skills per class on 9 classes. Skills and traits can never be in a state where they are useful everywhere. There will always be a "meta" pick and configuration but with the amount of combinations in the game there's room for builds to perform differently across multiple game modes **and skills/traits still be the same across all competitve modes.**
> >
> > Onto your specific example of Rev. Was hammer meta on rev in PvP before it was nerfed? No. Was it meta after? No. Did Anything realistically change for Rev in PvP? No. This is the problem with people complaining about "my stuff got nerfed for X game mode" it was a bad build before and it stays a bad build but is addressed where it matters and doesn't perform unexpectedly different between the modes.
> >
> > **In other words using a knife to drink soup is bad and always was bad**
> >
> > The rules are different? The lack of a node, that's about it. Win condition left WvW a loooong time ago.
>
> You might not be sightless to miss the amount of skills and traits, but you certainly are to the uses and performances between modes and the reason split balance is necessary. Again, for the third time, ***sPvP will be the standard all balance is done by and WvW shouldn't be balanced by the same rules.*** What's a problem in one isn't in another for any number of reasons, so a one size fits all approach is downright ridiculous.
>
> The example with rev is to show why split balance is necessary if we want to have things be usable between modes when they're primarily used in one. Was Rev hammer meta in sPvP? No, and now it's even worse in that mode due to no fault of its own and ***can't improve because it will be a problem in WvW.*** Of course not everything can be meta, but the idea that it should be worse in one mode because it's strong in another is lazy and shows a complete disregard for any potential of making it usable where it's not used. Anet SHOULD try to make hammer usable in sPvP but if they don't split balance, it means it will always be held captive by WvW. Pretty much every other instance will just be mode reversed, something is a problem in sPvP and it gets nerfed in WvW where it wasn't an issue or even unusable, making it worse and further forcing everyone into specific sets.
>
> The rules are very different. WvW can have 150+ people on a map at any time with siege, structures, completely different stat and build availability, while sPvP is 5v5 in a much more tightly controlled environment. In other words, ***stop trying to use a spoon to eat what you need a fork for.***
Rev hammer still? You can still use rev hammer in PvP it's just very rarely going to be meta. Thing is, rev has several other weapons much more suited to the game mode and that is a realistic expectation of balance. Not that every weapon is a good pick in every mode but that every class has multiple options in the game modes, so once again why are you trying to eat soup with a knife?
You're literally only looking at zerg combat, a lot of fights and battles happen outside of that where being closer to PvP balance has always been better. Additionally zergs are made up of sub groups of 5, the reality is that it's not 50 vs 50 it is 5x10 vs 5x10 and this is assuming it is somewhat organised which is not the norm unless you're on the flavour of the month server. Often it's not even that, the groups are made up of 2 support and 2 damage then extra damage or utility in terms of function.
The desciding factor is generally if what you're using is AoE and so can overlap to outside your party if required, this is not present in PvP due to the 5 player limit.