apharma.3741
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Posts posted by apharma.3741
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Even Sindrener is trying to learn rev so for once, and only once, Vallun is not entirely wrong.
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> @"Edge.8724" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > @"Avatar.3568" @"Edge.8724" @"HeadCrowned.6834"
> >
> > Let me translate it for you: "Remove knights amulet instead of nerfing ranger"
> >
> > Only other class that's really a problem on knights atm is maybe engineer but again it's more of a class issue.
>
> Hmmm... Sounds extremist to just remove stats instead of checking the problem more in depth.
>
> One more thing; how can we conclude that someone was using a certain amulet? Metabattle?
>
> What if that certain op player actually used Berserker Amulet and was simply just "good"?
Yes especially when there's really no evidence to say that the amulet is an issue on any other class. ANet however do collect metrics on what amulet is used and I dare say they can use dimensions like class and trait lines to find outliers, you can get a feel for some amulets but it might be hard to distinguish between knights and paladins, you'd need to keep track of the enemies healing and damage taken but still it wouldn't be easy to distinguish all the time vs all players.
@"Revolution.5409" Not sure what you mean, I was translating the thread for people and the motives of the OP are very clear to almost anyone who's been around for a few months.
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> @"Bazsi.2734" said:
> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > Considering players of equal skill in Conquest, Core Ranger will lose to:
> >
> > 1. D/F LR Weaver
> > 2. Demo Prot Holo
> > 3. Menders Symbol Core Guard
> > 4. D/P Daredevil
> > 5. Core Necro (realistically, all necro specializations could deal with ranger)
> > 6. Condi Mirage
> > 7. Condi Herald
> > 8. (insert most condi builds here)
> > 9. (insert any build that can kill the pets)
>
> So basicly ranger cannot win vs. anything. Not even scourge. Well I guess there is no balance problem then. All those rangers beating everything effortlessly on the sides are just figments of our imagination. Pets doing 6-10K damage attacks aren't a problem either. Why would they be. Just dodge. Point Blank Shot, Rapidfire, pet F2 command, Maul, Hiltbash, second pets F2, Maul again... to count all the skills you have to **absolutely** avoid I only need 2 hands, so if you get hit by any of them it's clearly an L2P problem.
>
> On a serious note, I'd love to see how you win against a core ranger on those builds you listed above. Especially on scourge, because I'm pretty sure core ranger hardcounters scourge.
>
> Core ranger as a whole is overtuned in this meta. Given how Longbow/GS kit gives extreme versatility, core ranger can be very slippery and survivable. It has mean pressure and oneshot worthy bursts. I don't mind it being hard to kill, but for something that can almost endlessly juke/outsustain you, turning back and instantly oneshotting you is a bit much. Druid and SB were neutered with some nasty tradeoffs and nerfs(maybe too much so, what is druid even good for at the moment?), but core feels like it's still pre-patch, stuck in the oneshot meta.
The last time someone made such a claim they decided to duel and indeed core necro couldn't do jack vs core ranger. You can find the thread easy enough and I think it's poor form to "rub someone's face in it" if they were willing to duel over the claim.
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@"Avatar.3568" @"Edge.8724" @"HeadCrowned.6834"
Let me translate it for you: "Remove knights amulet instead of nerfing ranger"
Only other class that's really a problem on knights atm is maybe engineer but again it's more of a class issue.
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> @"memausz.7264" said:
> > @"ArlAlt.1630" said:
> > > @"Odik.4587" said:
> > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said:
> > > > I tuned in to Teapot's Teatime only to hear that according to Teapot, Mirage is butchered. Thank the Maker CMC ignored the stipulation. The class is clearly over performing still. Nerf it already ANET!
> > > >
> > > > @ArenaNet
> > > Was it only mirage? I thought it was the entire class which was butchered?
> > > But ye CMC is the MVP, ignored the question like a champ. He just couldnt tell him more nerfs are coming :joy:
> >
> > Rightfully so, the class is OP as hell.
>
> I think the main issues with mesmer in general are:
> 1. Mindwrack can still do 12K in 2 hits after being in stealth and even then some more outside stealth
> 2. For mirage specifically, the clones get evade frames
> 3. Clones can get aegis
> 4. Clones can actually take 3-4 hits to kill, instead of one, and that's with Demo/Maurauder/Berserker amulets.
> 5. Clones persist indefinitely.
>
> Those are the main issues I have with mesmer. I want them to not rely so much on their clones and on super bursts to be effective in combat.
I'm guessing you haven't played mesmer in a very long time or you've discovered copper tier in PvP, here's why.
1. Yes, you need mantra of pain for this though.
2. Yes with a trait, at the same rate the mesmer evades.
3. They don't, you're mistaking clones with phantasms and there's a trait for that....it's not an issue I've ever seen anyone complain about till now, congrats.
4. Clones have 2.4k health, if it's taking you 3-4 hits you're doing something very wrong with those amulets. Phantasms, might take 3, I'll give you that.
5. Yes and no, they disappear when you get far enough away, they are also rendered useless by stealth and wasted as a shatter if chilled, crippled or you simply walk away with swiftness.
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People will use what's strong, if nothing changes between now and then you will see:
Prot Holo
Double Rev - will vary
Tempest
Necro - will vary
That doesn't mean this is what the winners will be using. I fully anticipate people swapping to mesmer against R55 because they don't understand how to fight vs a mesmer comp without using another mesmer and the favourites are clearly R55 and whatever US team is farming everyone in NA monthly. You may see the second rev or the necro changed depending on map but I'm fairly confident you'll see Prot Holo, Tempest and a Rev from most teams.
Remember a lot of teams know they won't win but coming 2nd or 3rd with a strong easy to play comp should be their goal.
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> @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > > > > > > can confirm because everybody crapping out blind, weakness, aoe CC and area denial which craps over warrior.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You have Berserk stance and more condi clear or can even slot warhorn for more condi clear/resistance if choosing tactics.....sounds too crazy? Warrior got plenty of condi removal options and generous access to resistance.....**but majority** of warriors don't seem to accept the fact that **dmg comes with a price tag**...at least from now, before you could get everything in a single build...not anymore, you need to make choices, pick your fights wisely and try to be useful while doing that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Warriors got truck load of condi clear but all that comes at a price...a price you're not willingly to pay like other classes
> > > > >
> > > > > boi oh boi, runs warhorn, why didn't i think of that, guys let's all run warhorn so we don't get kitten by blinds and weakness spam.
> > > > > oh wait, now i got kitten by power thief/rev/ranger/guardian because i don't have a shield? silly me
> > > > >
> > > > > you think people haven't tried other amulet and other builds? you think too intelligent of yourself.
> > > >
> > > > Was waiting for this...
> > > >
> > > > >let's all run warhorn so we don't get kitten by blinds and weakness spam. oh wait, now i got kitten by power
> > > >
> > > > Yes! It's called balance..we can't have a "ring to rule them all" sort of build, you must have counters, hard counters even to guarantee some resemblance of fun for other players..I am not the one who think too intelligent of himself
> > >
> > > LOL dude, having to sacrifice defense for strength or vise versa in build making doesn't determine balance.
> > > You do realize what you are saying is like saying
> > > Necro is taking blood magic, so it's sacrificing damage for sustain, so it's balanced, lol nonsense.
> >
> > It's not nonsense though, it's opportunity/cost. Does the sustain of blood allow you to win fights that you otherwise would lose by taking higher damage traits which wouldn't let you end the fight before you ran out of health? Works the opposite way too.
> >
> > http://peped.org/economicinvestigations/activity-core-concept-2-opportunity-cost/
>
> what a class has to give up in order to gain something else has nothing to do with it's position inside the pool. that's why it made non sense here.
> unless you agree with the statement of necro is balanced because it's taking blood magic.
> opportunity/cost is set for balancing diversity/specialization within one self, it has nothing to do with balance between all classes.
You said:
"LOL dude, **having to sacrifice defense for strength or vise versa in build making doesn't determine balance.**
You do realize what you are saying is like saying
Necro is taking blood magic, so it's sacrificing damage for sustain, so it's balanced, lol nonsense."
Choosing a trait line over another is an opportunity cost, regardless of how YOU perceive it's value or balance it's still an opportunity cost and the game really is balanced around this concept. Whether necro is balanced or whether the opportunity cost of taking blood is balanced has nothing to do with the bold part, you're saying taking one trait line over another doesn't determine balance but it does.
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> @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > > > > can confirm because everybody crapping out blind, weakness, aoe CC and area denial which craps over warrior.
> > > >
> > > > You have Berserk stance and more condi clear or can even slot warhorn for more condi clear/resistance if choosing tactics.....sounds too crazy? Warrior got plenty of condi removal options and generous access to resistance.....**but majority** of warriors don't seem to accept the fact that **dmg comes with a price tag**...at least from now, before you could get everything in a single build...not anymore, you need to make choices, pick your fights wisely and try to be useful while doing that.
> > > >
> > > > Warriors got truck load of condi clear but all that comes at a price...a price you're not willingly to pay like other classes
> > >
> > > boi oh boi, runs warhorn, why didn't i think of that, guys let's all run warhorn so we don't get kitten by blinds and weakness spam.
> > > oh wait, now i got kitten by power thief/rev/ranger/guardian because i don't have a shield? silly me
> > >
> > > you think people haven't tried other amulet and other builds? you think too intelligent of yourself.
> >
> > Was waiting for this...
> >
> > >let's all run warhorn so we don't get kitten by blinds and weakness spam. oh wait, now i got kitten by power
> >
> > Yes! It's called balance..we can't have a "ring to rule them all" sort of build, you must have counters, hard counters even to guarantee some resemblance of fun for other players..I am not the one who think too intelligent of himself
>
> LOL dude, having to sacrifice defense for strength or vise versa in build making doesn't determine balance.
> You do realize what you are saying is like saying
> Necro is taking blood magic, so it's sacrificing damage for sustain, so it's balanced, lol nonsense.
It's not nonsense though, it's opportunity/cost. Does the sustain of blood allow you to win fights that you otherwise would lose by taking higher damage traits which wouldn't let you end the fight before you ran out of health? Works the opposite way too.
http://peped.org/economicinvestigations/activity-core-concept-2-opportunity-cost/
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> @"DoomNexus.5324" said:
> Easy pick: Mesmer. Not because they are particularily broken but I just hate the clones and illusions and their ability to break targeting, especially when they go invisible too.
> It's just pure cancer to fight them imo, no matter if 1v1 or in a team fight.
> While I think I'm actually not too bad at figuring out quickly who the actual player character is, the necessity to do this is just kitten imo.
> And I dislike clones not only for the visual clutter I think it's also the most important utility that enables mesmer to sprial out of control if there's some broken trait or anything. Mobility is also extremely good, especially in-fight.
Shift + Tab = Previous Enemy
I believe it will always reacquire the mesmer if your original target was the mesmer and they use a break target skill. This is one of the reasons there seems to be a big gulf between those who struggle to fight mesmers and those who easy mode kill them.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Controls
As for the topic itself, it's not a class that I dislike losing against, it's the abuse of mechanics. I've fought people playing all sorts of classes and using not the strongest thing they can and it's fine if I mess up and die, on the contrary I hate fighting something you have no hope of winning against because it's simply over tuned and you'd need them to mess up pretty badly to win against.
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You balance for both but you use your brain to decide if an argument has merit, usually backing it up by data collected by the various systems in place.
Everyone is fond of extreme examples like the one Master Ketsu made up but there's a vast spectrum of skill between a guy that is a wilfully ignorant cry baby, someone who is in their 50s who simply doesn't have the reaction time of 16 yr olds and a class main who's played every weapon combo, utility and trait type in most combinations across 7 years.
Just because something isn't strong in high tier play it doesn't mean it should stick around if it's stomping everyone in an oppressive way below the top 250 players or if it has a strong effect with no opportunity/cost at all and no counter play outside of "just preemptive dodge 4Head".
We're also ignoring how incredibly biased a lot of "top players" actually are or how they don't articulate their advise particularly well, either because they are ESL or simply lack the maturity to give actionable feedback. That is of course without mentioning "top player" is a very loose definition, I would say there's almost none left anymore and even the current set are more like rusty knives than sharpened swords.
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> @"Avatar.3568" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"Avatar.3568" said:
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > @"Eugchriss.2046" said:
> > > > > Can some one explain me why the kitten ranger's GS has a built-in shield which is even better(low cd, better utilities) than other classes shield? Like really:
> > > > > * is not rooted, when herald is
> > > > > * block all incomming attacks, when guard's shield only block projectiles
> > > > > * has a 1.5 sec stun/daze on 20s CD when chrono has 40s
> > > > > * has a 1.5 sec stun/daze on 20s CD when war has 2sec stun on 20s CD (remember one is using shield the other is not)
> > > > > * has a 3sec block on 25sec cd + knockback + a little evade when war has 3secs block on30secs
> > > > >
> > > > > Ranger's GS is in my opinion the best 2 handed weapon a class can have. It has gap closer + evade + build-in shied + CC + low cd, high damage skill.
> > > > > **Greatsword is not a shield**, just saying.
> > > >
> > > > You forgot the endurance regen on 3rd part of the auto and really should have done a comparison of swoop to other evades, but yeah ranger GS has it all.
> > >
> > > Yeah the 3 attack of the auto attack from gs is pretty never happen, it takes years and does no dmg (on core) with the evade there was a reason to do it, but now you making yourself a big fat target with gs auto attacks
> >
> > So....like every other class.
>
> Yeah but you complain about something that is not rly usefull, I just attack with AA on some Downstats that my mate gets the stomp while they rezzing, it does no dmg, when I just jump arroun and let my pet do the kitten I getting way better of
>
> Ranger gs is a defense weapon with maul. it does only on glass Canon dmg
I wasn't complaining though? I was pointing out the stuff the OP missed off the weapon as a complete package, remember I also pointed out swoop should have been in the comparisons they did.
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> @"Avatar.3568" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"Eugchriss.2046" said:
> > > Can some one explain me why the kitten ranger's GS has a built-in shield which is even better(low cd, better utilities) than other classes shield? Like really:
> > > * is not rooted, when herald is
> > > * block all incomming attacks, when guard's shield only block projectiles
> > > * has a 1.5 sec stun/daze on 20s CD when chrono has 40s
> > > * has a 1.5 sec stun/daze on 20s CD when war has 2sec stun on 20s CD (remember one is using shield the other is not)
> > > * has a 3sec block on 25sec cd + knockback + a little evade when war has 3secs block on30secs
> > >
> > > Ranger's GS is in my opinion the best 2 handed weapon a class can have. It has gap closer + evade + build-in shied + CC + low cd, high damage skill.
> > > **Greatsword is not a shield**, just saying.
> >
> > You forgot the endurance regen on 3rd part of the auto and really should have done a comparison of swoop to other evades, but yeah ranger GS has it all.
>
> Yeah the 3 attack of the auto attack from gs is pretty never happen, it takes years and does no dmg (on core) with the evade there was a reason to do it, but now you making yourself a big fat target with gs auto attacks
So....like every other class.
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> @"Eugchriss.2046" said:
> Can some one explain me why the kitten ranger's GS has a built-in shield which is even better(low cd, better utilities) than other classes shield? Like really:
> * is not rooted, when herald is
> * block all incomming attacks, when guard's shield only block projectiles
> * has a 1.5 sec stun/daze on 20s CD when chrono has 40s
> * has a 1.5 sec stun/daze on 20s CD when war has 2sec stun on 20s CD (remember one is using shield the other is not)
> * has a 3sec block on 25sec cd + knockback + a little evade when war has 3secs block on30secs
>
> Ranger's GS is in my opinion the best 2 handed weapon a class can have. It has gap closer + evade + build-in shied + CC + low cd, high damage skill.
> **Greatsword is not a shield**, just saying.
You forgot the endurance regen on 3rd part of the auto and really should have done a comparison of swoop to other evades, but yeah ranger GS has it all.
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You forgot Revs being ignored but actually incredibly strong.
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> @"Odik.4587" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"Odik.4587" said:
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > @"Shao.7236" said:
> > > > > It's pretty misleading, people have two evades and there's 5 CC's to avoid without counting Tornado, it's clear that without Stability to counter it can dominate any fights because Weakness and preventing any skill to be used while doing damage is a lot in one place.
> > > > >
> > > > > Reducing damage on LR to make others worth something rather than just roll everything is the better solution.
> > > >
> > > > I think one thing that's really brought more attention to it is no-one is running stability in any form anymore. Back in core you'd have double balanced stance warriors, guards giving good uptime on stab and there was a bit dotted around for many classes, coupled with CC being on longer cool downs.
> > > Shall we return good old CI then? Its was people fault that they didnt ran double stability utilities after all :joy:
> >
> > Old CI was a problem of mesmer having double or more the CC it ever had in core. LR is a problem because weaver now has more CC than ele originally had and they're all on 20s or below CDs while core ele only really had shocking aura and some CC on the offhand:
> > Sword: Gale Strike, Polaric leap
> > Dagger: Katabatic Winds, Mudslide
> >
> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1004275#Comment_1004275
> >
> > Edit: "If you're happy with it then sure nerf CI and every on CC trait or interrupt trait into the floor and below, break out the guy who invented the abomination of balance that is sbooning and sic'em onto it." oh look people are complaining about most on CC traits now. _sips_
> You surely forgot about shocking aura and now add to it focus CC's. LRod always was cancer, its not even on "interrupt", you just spam it to kill. It deserves the same fate as LostTime - deleted.
> Actually wait, how come mesmer had twice less CC's than now? The only difference is mantra of distraction was buffed over the time.
Read the comment I linked, that was before the patch when CI was being complained about and the justification for it.
LR wasn't as obnoxious as CC was considerably less, you had shocking aura and 1-2 skills on the offhand. It was ironically better on staff as staff CC didn't have a target cap so you could proc it on Static Field and Unsteady ground on everyone multiple times. Even then it wasn't that bad as it didn't do a lot of damage iirc.
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> @"Odik.4587" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"Shao.7236" said:
> > > It's pretty misleading, people have two evades and there's 5 CC's to avoid without counting Tornado, it's clear that without Stability to counter it can dominate any fights because Weakness and preventing any skill to be used while doing damage is a lot in one place.
> > >
> > > Reducing damage on LR to make others worth something rather than just roll everything is the better solution.
> >
> > I think one thing that's really brought more attention to it is no-one is running stability in any form anymore. Back in core you'd have double balanced stance warriors, guards giving good uptime on stab and there was a bit dotted around for many classes, coupled with CC being on longer cool downs.
> Shall we return good old CI then? Its was people fault that they didnt ran double stability utilities after all :joy:
Old CI was a problem of mesmer having double or more the CC it ever had in core. LR is a problem because weaver now has more CC than ele originally had and they're all on 20s or below CDs while core ele only really had shocking aura and some CC on the offhand:
Sword: Gale Strike, Polaric leap
Dagger: Katabatic Winds, Mudslide
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1004275#Comment_1004275
Edit: "If you're happy with it then sure nerf CI and every on CC trait or interrupt trait into the floor and below, break out the guy who invented the abomination of balance that is sbooning and sic'em onto it." oh look people are complaining about most on CC traits now. _sips_
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> @"Jazz.4639" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> yes we have different perspective here, even tho your perspective would save me a lot of money. no need to buy any expansion for a mesmer spec that is only playable as condi or bunker.
>
Well we are getting a new expansion :lol:
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> @"Jazz.4639" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"Jazz.4639" said:
> > > > @"hotte in space.2158" said:
> > > > > @"Jazz.4639" said:
> > > > >when playing it feels more like having a second job
> > > > Yeah I spent so much time with it that I just can say : too bad I didnt get payed for it
> > > > Happy easter you too :)
> > > >
> > >
> > > rich! we would be rich! :)
> > >
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > @"Jazz.4639" said:
> > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > > > @"Jazz.4639" said:
> > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > > > > Well this escalated quickly @"Jazz.4639" Thanks for the video, maybe time to go back to your roots with core?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > oooof haha yes, i guess that is the bane you have to live with when playing mesmer. if i believe all the toxic whispers i get, then i am just lucky with random skill clicking while being carried from a lame build spamming random dazes left and right. while i wonder where all the fotm players are, eager to play my build for the big carry. anyway, let ppl think what they like to think. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
> > > > > > > i rly dont want to go deep into this dispute. i made my opinion about one dodge mirage clear, i think it is very bad not mainly bc it is an overnerf for power mirage (also when playing it feels more like having a second job and not like having fun with a gaming hobby and i need 3 weeks vacation after few matches) but mostly bc it deletes most of my abilities to make plays with mirage tools, so it deletes skillneed. and that is what nerfs should not do in my opinion.
> > > > > > > playing core mes instead is an option but you rly miss mobility then, at least in conquest.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yeah core is pretty much hit and run, mostly on the run if people decide "that mesmer has to die". Wouldn't be too bad if we had a power spec for chrono but that already lends itself to a condi build through rewinder and chrono phantasma letting you get double pistol traited for bleeds and double torch phantasm for AoE burn. Still a pretty bad spec in general that struggles with clone generation yet needs it because no IP.
> > > > >
> > > > > i want to play something that feels like a (shatter) mes, so chrono is not an option.
> > > >
> > > > Yeah that's the rub, Chrono could feel like a shatter mesmer if it had IP and wasn't all over the place especially with superspeed shatters....it's just they mangled it all to deal with it's doubling up nature.
> > >
> > > it is just another rip. they should rename chrono and call it a 10th class. like "The Clunkylist" or something, bc dunno what chrono now is, but it is not a mesmer for me anymore. it can be a hotchpotch class for all elite specs with mechanics nerfed into the ground so that they cant function as intended anymore. mirage then can be its first elite spec we get with the next exansion… what great times to be alive as a power mesmer! \o/
> >
> > I dunno I basically think trying to make mirage play power is a bit of a fools errand personally despite the obvious advantages on sword ambush. So many of the traits are condition focused I'd rather they just keep it as a condi duelist and focus on making chrono into a power bruiser. Personally I'm finding the heal nerfs and CD increases on core have hit a bit hard, you can still +1 as power shatter but you have to be very careful if they focus you.
>
> naaah there are 3 trait choices, it is possible to create viable power, condi and support/utility alternatives, no need to pressure any class or elite into only one direction.
>
I guess that's a difference in perspective. I personally think elite specs should be specialised into a role and doing it in different ways. Mirage being condi duelist it can up it's personal defences, have a bit more debuff ability/utility and then traits that up the personal damage and it's relatively OK. Hard to know how it interacts with every trait choice and line in each combo but by and large mirage is in a "playable" spot for condi.
Power you can make work the same way you can make power scourge work, sure it can work as viable but it's not really supposed to be played that way and it won't be easy so you shouldn't complain if it's not very good. That's why I think it's a bit of a fools errand trying to make power mirage a thing.
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> @"Shao.7236" said:
> It's pretty misleading, people have two evades and there's 5 CC's to avoid without counting Tornado, it's clear that without Stability to counter it can dominate any fights because Weakness and preventing any skill to be used while doing damage is a lot in one place.
>
> Reducing damage on LR to make others worth something rather than just roll everything is the better solution.
I think one thing that's really brought more attention to it is no-one is running stability in any form anymore. Back in core you'd have double balanced stance warriors, guards giving good uptime on stab and there was a bit dotted around for many classes, coupled with CC being on longer cool downs.
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> @"Jazz.4639" said:
> > @"hotte in space.2158" said:
> > > @"Jazz.4639" said:
> > >when playing it feels more like having a second job
> > Yeah I spent so much time with it that I just can say : too bad I didnt get payed for it
> > Happy easter you too :)
> >
>
> rich! we would be rich! :)
>
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"Jazz.4639" said:
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > @"Jazz.4639" said:
> > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > > > Well this escalated quickly @"Jazz.4639" Thanks for the video, maybe time to go back to your roots with core?
> > > > >
> > > > > oooof haha yes, i guess that is the bane you have to live with when playing mesmer. if i believe all the toxic whispers i get, then i am just lucky with random skill clicking while being carried from a lame build spamming random dazes left and right. while i wonder where all the fotm players are, eager to play my build for the big carry. anyway, let ppl think what they like to think. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
> > > > > i rly dont want to go deep into this dispute. i made my opinion about one dodge mirage clear, i think it is very bad not mainly bc it is an overnerf for power mirage (also when playing it feels more like having a second job and not like having fun with a gaming hobby and i need 3 weeks vacation after few matches) but mostly bc it deletes most of my abilities to make plays with mirage tools, so it deletes skillneed. and that is what nerfs should not do in my opinion.
> > > > > playing core mes instead is an option but you rly miss mobility then, at least in conquest.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yeah core is pretty much hit and run, mostly on the run if people decide "that mesmer has to die". Wouldn't be too bad if we had a power spec for chrono but that already lends itself to a condi build through rewinder and chrono phantasma letting you get double pistol traited for bleeds and double torch phantasm for AoE burn. Still a pretty bad spec in general that struggles with clone generation yet needs it because no IP.
> > >
> > > i want to play something that feels like a (shatter) mes, so chrono is not an option.
> >
> > Yeah that's the rub, Chrono could feel like a shatter mesmer if it had IP and wasn't all over the place especially with superspeed shatters....it's just they mangled it all to deal with it's doubling up nature.
>
> it is just another rip. they should rename chrono and call it a 10th class. like "The Clunkylist" or something, bc dunno what chrono now is, but it is not a mesmer for me anymore. it can be a hotchpotch class for all elite specs with mechanics nerfed into the ground so that they cant function as intended anymore. mirage then can be its first elite spec we get with the next exansion… what great times to be alive as a power mesmer! \o/
I dunno I basically think trying to make mirage play power is a bit of a fools errand personally despite the obvious advantages on sword ambush. So many of the traits are condition focused I'd rather they just keep it as a condi duelist and focus on making chrono into a power bruiser. Personally I'm finding the heal nerfs and CD increases on core have hit a bit hard, you can still +1 as power shatter but you have to be very careful if they focus you.
-
> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > @"Revolution.5409" said:
> > > > > Many tend to generalize, the problem is bird and cat damage "not all Ranger pets".
> > > > >
> > > > > As Ranger Main, I agree that they must be nerfed, Ranger can use defensive amulets with offensive pets and this makes it difficult to play against a tank that can actually kill his opponent.
> > > > >
> > > > > A reduction of harm on these pets is acceptable, a reduction of harm on all pets would be the wrong thing to do.
> > > >
> > > > It would be absolutely fine if they'd nerfed bird/tiger dmg by 50%...increase ranger dmg on axe/sword/longbow..the class deal almost zero dmg with zerker amulet and diviner runes when not using MM two holy traits **Moment of clarity** and **Remorseless** , it seems the whole class deal zero dmg when not equipping those 2 traits + maul
> > >
> > > And that's exactly what is going on. It's why I said this is becoming degenerate within about the past 12 months. You don't really see much discussion behind actual numbers with logic & well explained points of view anymore. It's just a lot emotional points of view tied to historical rivalries behind class vs. class and even forum users vs. forum users.
> > >
> > > These balance discussions lately have been more based around l2p issues and emotions than ever before. A truly frightening precursor to the future of this game.
> >
> > Literally numbers in this thread that no-one is commenting on.
> >
> > I said: The real question people should be discussing is "how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player?"
> >
> > Yet you and other rangers go quiet and don't want to engage in that discussion on this. So have at it Mr Boyer, how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player? Less than 200 words please.
>
> Refusing to discuss? On the contrary my friend, I just don't care what the ratio of damage is for Ranger vs. Pet, nor do I think any of the other Ranger mains do either. The reason why you aren't getting responses is because people are probably not identifying the importance of your question to begin with or its relevance as a counter point. Honestly, I almost didn't respond to this for that very reason.
>
> Regardless of what the ratio is "70% pet 30% ranger" or "30% pet 70% ranger" is kind of negligent to the point that the Ranger mains are stating, and that is: "The cumulative damage output between the Pet and the Ranger is just not as high as people are acting like it is." You may be focusing on some philosophical game design theory behind the question of: "how much damage is too much on an AI?" and that isn't wrong to do. But in the more immediate matter of things, that is not what Ranger mains are concerned with. Right now the Ranger mains are concerned with maintaining viable damage output regardless of if it is 70/30 or 30/70, doesn't matter. So when people are hard targeting pet damage for big nuke nerfing, Ranger mains are trying to explain why regardless of 70/30 or 30/70, the Ranger needs that damage or at least most of it to be maintained. <- And I'm not just saying that out of some forum biased defense. Right now the only thing that makes Core Ranger viable is that threat of surprise KO from the pet. If birds/tiger were to lose even 15% to 20% of their damage output tomorrow, Core Ranger would lose that threat range and no longer be viable because every class would much more easily be able to take a hit and then reset before another inc big damage pet strike. Without that surprise KO factor, similar to Thief/Mesmer attacks out of stealth, the Core Ranger will be out brawled by other classes. It already is by condi heavy builds. And keep in mind that the person beating the Ranger doesn't actually have to be able to kill it to beat it. If they can survive the damage output on node 1v1 and force the Ranger off the node to kite for it to be able to survive, that is the point where the Core Ranger becomes unviable. The only thing holding this back from happening currently, is actual kill threat coming from the pet. And the only reason why Ranger mains are defending it so wildly right now is because Soulbeast is weak now after Maul/WI nerfing, Druid is actually the worst specialization in the game competitively, and Core Ranger is hanging on the cusp of viability. Whether it will remain playable or not, will depend on how hard Arenanet nerfs the pets, and if they give any damage back to Core Ranger in other places.
>
> I'd also like to point out that players should try looking at this from a different point of view. Example: If the Core Ranger wasn't benefitting such tankiness from Knight's/Resistance, would anyone still be upset about pet damage output? If the Core Rangers were running Berserker/Eagle and could be 2HKO from a Holosmith or Spellbreaker, would anyone still be complaining about pet damage? I honestly believe that if the Ranger was glass, we wouldn't be seeing many complaints at all. So it makes you wonder where does the problem really lie here? Is it actually pet damage or is it the old Druid effect? Like in HoT when Bunker Druids would stat completely for sustain no damage setups, and then kill you with Smokescale/Bristleback. This is an age old problem for Ranger balancing in Guild Wars 2. The pet damage does not scale with the amulet worn by the Ranger. It's something to think about, something to consider.
>
> And before you say "But you didn't answer my question" I did answer your question when I said I don't care how it's fixed, so long as the ratio to ratio of pet vs ranger damage remains reasonable to create pressure that is threatening enough to provide kill opportunity.
>
> Also, you should know me better than this by now. I don't respond or argue with people who say things that make viable sense for a good opinion stated. Recently in a Druid thread I made, a guy openly disagreed with me and I gave him a thumbs up and said "This is the type of feedback I am looking for." When I respond to defend something on my main class, it's when people are stating things that are either truly a l2p issue or something that is simply not true at all. A couple good examples would be 1) A Core Necromancer complaining about Core Ranger, when Core Necromancer actually hard counters Core Ranger. Or 2) Someone posting cropped screenshots of a Soulbeast hitting them for 10k Mauls and claiming a Core Ranger hit them for that damage, when in reality Core Rangers only hits for 3k-4k Mauls.
>
> I fully expect nerfs to happen to Pets. I'm just trying to keep the points of views & suggestions of both forum users and Arenanet, within reason.
I skim read this because I asked for less than 200 words and you wrote 879.
The point of talking about it is as I said to you, the nerfs are coming and if you want to avoid a Chrono situation you need to talk and be less biased than you clearly are about this kind of stuff. Some pets clearly are doing more damage than should be reasonable on a sub component of the class and if you want the damage on core ranger then you need to lose it on the pet in some ways. An AI part shouldn't be doing the lion's share of your damage, this was a lesson learnt back in the old mesmer phantasm days where the mechanic just sucked due to them possibly being up 100% so having to be accounted for at all times.
Still you should be talking about how much damage should a pet be doing? Should a ranger be effectively having the damage of 50%-75% of another player while the pet has 150%? I guarantee you will get that if you don't talk about reducing some pets damage.
I told you, pick your poison.
-
> @"Seth.8906" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > @"Revolution.5409" said:
> > > > > Many tend to generalize, the problem is bird and cat damage "not all Ranger pets".
> > > > >
> > > > > As Ranger Main, I agree that they must be nerfed, Ranger can use defensive amulets with offensive pets and this makes it difficult to play against a tank that can actually kill his opponent.
> > > > >
> > > > > A reduction of harm on these pets is acceptable, a reduction of harm on all pets would be the wrong thing to do.
> > > >
> > > > It would be absolutely fine if they'd nerfed bird/tiger dmg by 50%...increase ranger dmg on axe/sword/longbow..the class deal almost zero dmg with zerker amulet and diviner runes when not using MM two holy traits **Moment of clarity** and **Remorseless** , it seems the whole class deal zero dmg when not equipping those 2 traits + maul
> > >
> > > And that's exactly what is going on. It's why I said this is becoming degenerate within about the past 12 months. You don't really see much discussion behind actual numbers with logic & well explained points of view anymore. It's just a lot emotional points of view tied to historical rivalries behind class vs. class and even forum users vs. forum users.
> > >
> > > These balance discussions lately have been more based around l2p issues and emotions than ever before. A truly frightening precursor to the future of this game.
> >
> > Literally numbers in this thread that no-one is commenting on.
> >
> > I said: The real question people should be discussing is "how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player?"
> >
> > Yet you and other rangers go quiet and don't want to engage in that discussion on this. So have at it Mr Boyer, how much damage should a pet be doing compared to a player? Less than 200 words please.
>
> Why compare player and pet dps? Is more like pet and other class mechanic...
> Phantoms shatters shround virues ecc
None of those keep attacking your enemies at all times. Additionally some of the attacks on some pets actually do more damage than the attacks on all the mechanics you mentioned. The reason you should compare to player damage is because the pet is supposed to make up some part of the rangers damage, so how much damage should the pet be doing compared to a player?
-
> @"Jazz.4639" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > @"Jazz.4639" said:
> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > > > Well this escalated quickly @"Jazz.4639" Thanks for the video, maybe time to go back to your roots with core?
> > >
> > > oooof haha yes, i guess that is the bane you have to live with when playing mesmer. if i believe all the toxic whispers i get, then i am just lucky with random skill clicking while being carried from a lame build spamming random dazes left and right. while i wonder where all the fotm players are, eager to play my build for the big carry. anyway, let ppl think what they like to think. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
> > > i rly dont want to go deep into this dispute. i made my opinion about one dodge mirage clear, i think it is very bad not mainly bc it is an overnerf for power mirage (also when playing it feels more like having a second job and not like having fun with a gaming hobby and i need 3 weeks vacation after few matches) but mostly bc it deletes most of my abilities to make plays with mirage tools, so it deletes skillneed. and that is what nerfs should not do in my opinion.
> > > playing core mes instead is an option but you rly miss mobility then, at least in conquest.
> > >
> >
> > Yeah core is pretty much hit and run, mostly on the run if people decide "that mesmer has to die". Wouldn't be too bad if we had a power spec for chrono but that already lends itself to a condi build through rewinder and chrono phantasma letting you get double pistol traited for bleeds and double torch phantasm for AoE burn. Still a pretty bad spec in general that struggles with clone generation yet needs it because no IP.
>
> i want to play something that feels like a (shatter) mes, so chrono is not an option.
Yeah that's the rub, Chrono could feel like a shatter mesmer if it had IP and wasn't all over the place especially with superspeed shatters....it's just they mangled it all to deal with it's doubling up nature.
-
> @"Jazz.4639" said:
> > @"apharma.3741" said:
> > Well this escalated quickly @"Jazz.4639" Thanks for the video, maybe time to go back to your roots with core?
>
> oooof haha yes, i guess that is the bane you have to live with when playing mesmer. if i believe all the toxic whispers i get, then i am just lucky with random skill clicking while being carried from a lame build spamming random dazes left and right. while i wonder where all the fotm players are, eager to play my build for the big carry. anyway, let ppl think what they like to think. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
> i rly dont want to go deep into this dispute. i made my opinion about one dodge mirage clear, i think it is very bad not mainly bc it is an overnerf for power mirage (also when playing it feels more like having a second job and not like having fun with a gaming hobby and i need 3 weeks vacation after few matches) but mostly bc it deletes most of my abilities to make plays with mirage tools, so it deletes skillneed. and that is what nerfs should not do in my opinion.
> playing core mes instead is an option but you rly miss mobility then, at least in conquest.
>
Yeah core is pretty much hit and run, mostly on the run if people decide "that mesmer has to die". Wouldn't be too bad if we had a power spec for chrono but that already lends itself to a condi build through rewinder and chrono phantasma letting you get double pistol traited for bleeds and double torch phantasm for AoE burn. Still a pretty bad spec in general that struggles with clone generation yet needs it because no IP.
Power Herald Build Guide
in Player vs. Player
Posted
> @"Vallun.2071" said:
> i believe misha is already playing a bit of rev
Yet more thief nerfs, less mesmers = less ecto = thief even less viable.