Zoser.7245

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> “healing that other classes have built into their kit and mesmer doesn’t”

That is. Other two professions profit highly the tormenting runes but they also have a great built in sustain in different ways. Add that in WvW our illusions are useless mainly. Then add those runes doesn’t exist in PvP, so the niche where you are competitive against other professions is too small. So, sustain is the key but not only for Mirage, for Core Mesmer and should be available for all our specializations because the small one we have come from Inspiration trait line, force you to use a defensive trait line because you also lack of a good clean condition. Also, the healing from mantras is something you never want to use as it means you used all their charges. Firebrands have a better version of mantras now with three charges which is a lot more valuable to manage them.

For me Chaos trait line should be renamed and add there the offensive sustain to the Core Mesmer.

> @"Yoci.2481" said:

>It is true that most builds can ignore a condi mirage as condi Mirage has >little chase potential and low burst. A solo roamer that fights for an >objective like a camp doesn't have that option, though. Many builds have >a hard time against such a condi Mirage, especially in competent hands. >It can be pretty oppressive in those cases. And that are the moments >most people think about when they hear calls for giving Mirage the >second dodge back.

And? You cannot expect that all builds work for all. But today things have changed a lot, you have the mount, you have templates and you can carry more than one build. If you are going to take a camp solo… Why don’t you take less than 10 seconds to change to a roamer build? Or at least one that let you disengage and leave the combat with a bit of brain? Mesmer are not the best thing chasing…

I don’t watch people saying… Oh, poor mesmers that are useless under AOE… We should accept some tradeoff and nerfs to let them be better and usefull, competitive, or… Buff mesmers illusions with a better survival!!! In fact, the last thing a readed few days ago were petitions of generalized buffs for all professions minus mesmers… in the PvP forum and that a Mirage with ZERO dodges will be the best one for the game. None there argued against that. So, the feeling is that Mesmer should be disabled, something ignorable or used as environmental artificial intelligence bots from Anet to fill the map.

> @"Salt Mode.3780" said:

> yes but those asking for a 2nd dodge isnt asking for a freebie like other >classes asking for buffs. We are literally asking for a tradeoff, either give >IH a ICD or nerf the amount of might and vuln on gs ambush or condi >stacks on staff. Mesmer mains already know there is no free lunch just >look at chrono, we gave up distort on split so we can shatter with no >clones again.

So, we have learned nothing. Oh yes, we accept tradeoffs and things that underperform us for what? Be balanced? Then after do that... they watch something else they don’t like and we suffer double nerf because they almost never revert a change and we end f***ed as usual and waiting years for nothing. NO thanks, we did it in the past and we are still suffering all the accumulated nerfs without reverting some nerfs to prevent us to end overnerfed. The developers didn't give a shit, they didn't spend a minute on it and revert previous changes to not overnerf several things.

Hopefully, today they seem to not listen these type of suggestions.

> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

>"I have to agree with both Helseth and Shorts (which I think is pretty >easy to say are the two best Mesmer players) that adding the 2nd dodge >to Mirage will break the class and is toxic for the game. Unhealthy >mechanics are not good for the game. Like most everyone else, I don't >enjoy playing against unhealthy mechanics, so I don't find the solution to >be to add more. I play Mesmer 99% of the time. Just because other >classes have unhealthy mechanics, doesn't mean I want one too."

That sounds familiar for me. Every time that something makes mesmers effective ends nerfed or removed with the same unhealthy history and same people involved. If the next changes to the mesmer make the profession only profitable for them, they will be the happiest gw2 players in the world and the true Mesmers!!! You can feel the ego there. Sadly for them, the nerf was so unfortunate and big that nobody wanted one in a competitive tournament where real money and prizes are up for grabs... so they ended playing something else in those tournaments and curiosly those professions with and "Unhealthy >mechanic". SO funny... why then they played unhealthy ones if they care a lot about healthy mechanics? Wouldn't they have preferred to play the two dodges "Unhealthy Mirage"? What irony... or maybe hypocrisy not playing something healthier? Or is it that verbiage and honor are soon forgotten when money is involved? Devs recognized that it was the easy solution to kick mesmers out and a band aid to not dedicate (waste?) time in research a proper and fair solution. But they kept others, looked for excuses and didn't give a damn.

--------------------

For now i only can remember all the things we have lost again. Proper phantasms and their builds, effective glamours and their builds, the three charges in our mantras that are now in the Firebrand hands. Our lost of CC capabilities through traits without add useful ones to our skills. Nerf to our defensive and stealth capabilities, etc. While in the way others got all that, like some portals, better stealth, better CC, better mantras, the sustain that we never had, etc. But hey, it doesn't matter, I think that continuing to debate the same thing is wasting time. Maybe there's something better to talk about the day the next expansion is released. Perhaps the next mesmer will be a troubadour with a harp in his hands to entertain allies and a machine that lauch healing and support potions in the back as a weapon... Sure that a lot of people will be happy with that!!! At this point our new specialization should already be defined and have a roadmap in its development. Which one will be? Probably someone reading this already know it.

Now that i'm playing other professions i also watch how bad phantasms are today when they are supposed to be our best and most determining skills. Or, at least, the most powerful. You can't count on them, they are unreliable in many scenarios and they are not determinative at all.

After many tests i even ended using one phantasm that, in theory, is not ideal for the build I use, but in practice it is much better than the one that is supposed to be the right one. After that it was very clear for me that they do not work as they should. And I am currently not happy with any of them. They are clearly improvable, both the skills themselves and some of the traits associated with them or that affect them.

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> The tradeoff should be losing Distortion, and modifying all other shatters.

>

> F4 should be Desert Distortion only - ie gain 1s mirage cloak (no invuln, only evade), and all clones become mirrors. Additionally, breaking mirrors from any source should give 1s mirage cloak (maybe this could be the replacement trait - buffing mirrors or something).

I can't watch mirrors as a realiable source for replace distortion. Clones, unless your at melee range, can be elsewhere in undesirable places to use those mirrors. So F4 will be a waste almost always with only 1s of mirage cloak. They also often not survive enough to profit them for increase of F4 duration. For change F4 to something worse better don't touch it with the excuse of give back the second dodge. We don't need extra nerfs with the trade off excuse.

One of the worst things that have happened to mesmers is, in fact, the rework of traits and skills only with only PvP in mind and a narrow vision of the matter. Each time that they do it we lose diversity and effectiveness in other game modes. Even WvW suffered it. That also happen if you only take into the account a single game mode, only PvE, for example. We actually have several traits that are only useful or relevant in a single game mode and práctically useless in others. The best is first fix the purpose of the trait/skill and once you know it find a way to make it useful in every game mode, even if those traits and skills must have some extra effects depending of the game mode without changing its design goal..

Can't even imagine what more they'd ruin the next time they make some rework on Mesmers/Mirage. But with the next expansion i can visualice the next hits to us. I actually almost not use my Mirage but i'll suffer them too. I can only hope that, with a bit of luck, they'll at least have a clever vision of how improve several things instead of ruin them like they often do with mesmers. Wel, time will show it.

Don't forget the torch. Reduce its cooldowns to the same as the Scourge's torch. The Prestige -> 20s cd. Phantasmal Mage -> 25s cd. 30s in both is too much for what they offer untraited. Phantasmal Mage is also easy to avoid.

But I doubt it, I'm not counting on it. It has already been asked/requested many times and they have not done anything. I imagine they go on the same way as with the one dodge man. One less concern playing other professions against mesmers. They ignore, dodge or kite it depending on the position. It almost do no damage if you clean the conditions. Torch is more used today as a defensive weapon than anything else due to the single dodge. At least against good players and coordinated teams.

Anyways it'll solve nothing. We have too many things that should be reworked. Although it'd be a welcome update for the torch.

> @"Yoci.2481" said:

> Good bye GW2. I gave them over two years to fix Mesmer. Turns out it was two years too many. See you in a different game maybe.

It's impossible to find a mesmer build without compromises and some flaws. The traits are a mess today. They ruined many of them and now we have few that worth to choose. You also need to do too many things without a proper reward. Imagine build might with a mesmer now.... It's never there when you need it or in a ridiculous amount and that even building for try to get it, lol. Then you play something else and by choosing a single trait and using a single skill.... WoW it's there, a lot stacks available in the right moment. We also lost a lot usefull CC. For a proper cleaning condition through traits or a good synergy you also have to sacrifice vital things. That doesn't happen in other professions and specializations with a lot better synergy between traits and skills. Better utilities, etc.

But that is. My solution was simple. Now i play Renegade mainly and updating the builds of other professions as alternatives. Problem solved. My Mirage is now relegated to being a craftsman and the personal-living story. Imagine that, now, i also have started to do dailies with Renegade, equip the tools with it and forget that the Mirage is there. Depending on the game mode i also have other alts. But basically that is. The solution was not to play it more than for trivial content. Why play a profession that can't do things as good as others? Why complicate all that much? No thanks. No more headaches with mesmer builds. I also refused to give ideas for the next specializacion. Overall, these developers always end up nerfing and messing the mesmer profession/specializations against the whining pressure from PvP mainly, but in general too as Chronomancer changes and mess showed, it was affected by all raid/PvE whining and PvP/WvW whining. Too much damage was done to mesmers before starting to split game modes in a more serious way, even some of the lastest skills rework did more damage than help. Too late to be happy as a mesmer, that is understandable.

Now i'm having fun, yes... but with the Renagade, that thing works, and works well, it's effective and efficient if you know how to manage your energy, a machine. It has the sustain that mesmer lacks without sacrifice things.... the burst when needed, good CC without you be forced to center the build on it, or sacrifice something... Etc. It is a lot better designed today. I like the skills/traits it has, the synergy with core Revenant and how all seems to work together. A long time has passed since i felt something similar playing mesmer. Necromancer is also nice to play after finish its build, is a different beast. My next focus will be on holo or scrapper probably. I don't know if with the next expansion they'll do a general rebalance for all professions that could give some hope for future mesmer changes... But, for now, playing something else it is the best decision, no doubt. No more keywarrior to try to help, that age when someone was interacting with us in a constructive way to improve mesmers has gone. It's time to turn the page and look away.

I hope you find your own way to have fun wherever you are playing now. Stay strong and safe.

Regards.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > Thanks for sharing.

> > First opponent lost in clones ;)

> >

> poor holo

> vid didnt copy right. 0:45

Ohh nooooo. Be ready for the one illusion man to join the one dodge man sooner than later. And if you count as the single ilusion... what phantasms will do? XD Ohhh, maybe... Chronomancer will the answer if even played after that. Terrifying times are coming. :#

> @"Yoci.2481" said:

> Mesmer is the duelist profession.

>

> ;)

And it still is. But now, you have more diversity of roles:

* In PvE: **The Duelist of ambient creatures**. Their terror.

* In PvP: **The assisted Assistant**. Or the **maiden**, as you prefer to call it. You can't do nothing alone, but if you stop running you're finished, sigh.

* In WvW: **The Joke**. (Not the Joker). With Otaku role compatibility.

;)

Developers already said that the sustain is going to be nerfed where they consider it a outliner and some outliners in terms of damage too. Both will imply that thief will be indirectly profit it in both ways, being less weak against those outliners that hit too hard now and also, with less sustain, kill faster. If you do those things and also buff others, then we could end with other outliners. Do too many things at once will have undesirable colateral damage and bad results. Let them nerf first the sustain and outliners. Then, after the next settle, it could be the time to talk if something is underperforming to buff it or even rework it. Because some of the nerfs done before also had colateral damage making some things unfun to play now. And have fun is also important in a game, if you make it unfun nerfing the base mechanics and not capable of balance them in a better way, the only thing you are going to accomplish is make people reroll or even quit to play other game with the theme they want.

So for now, a bit of patience seems more reasonable and watch what happen in the next balance patch. With luck, maybe next week or if not, next month... It's not going to be a small patch, not if the sustain is involved, it'll be bigger than expected.

Don't forget to take and attach here a selfie when they release the sustain balance. I want to watch those stone, horror and Pikachu faces after read the patch notes. =)

The sustain is definitely very high in some professions. But ironically, now that we know they are going to balance it. I am afraid it may affect PvE. I hope they do not think to touch the sustain of PvE because there is a lot of high-level content that you can solo when you can't find other players to do the content or as a challenge. Each game mode has different requirements of sustain, including WvW. But in WvW due to the amount of players together maybe could be share the sustain with PvE to save extra work.

Better that they manage to split that balance patch properly between games modes WvW/PvP/PvE or a lot of colateral damage could happen. I can imagine the legion of PvE players raging and flooding the forums if that balance patch nerf the PvE sustain.

> @"Vallun.2071" said:

> A very long winded guide on what I think is potentially the most powerful build in the meta right now, yes even more powerful than ranger. With its ability to rotate and sweep the map in its favor it can carry matches brutally. I attempt to explain as much as I can of my build choices, and how to make optimal use of the aggressive play style.

>

Always nice watch the variety you play and trying to be creative.

I'm sorry that you had to suffer with Mirage. It was unusual to watch you lose that much. But at the same time a confirmation of the real state of the Mirage in the current meta. What hurt me was how they treated you in a certain game simply for being a Mirage, because that doesn't happen to you playing other professions. It was unpleasant to watch how they insulted you in the video "The Meme Gauntlet" on Twitch while playing Mirage. That's our life.

Thanks for your guides, streaming and videos.

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> Even Sindrener is trying to learn rev so for once, and only once, Vallun is not entirely wrong.

Well, adapt and learn of what is better for make your team win is the right aptitude instead of be mind narrowed. Who knows if after watch it Misha also try something more optimal than try to force the Mirage works. Despite the advantage in a very particular map, you can be more useful playing something else more rewarding and useful for your team than Mirage. Anyways we must to watch if the next balance patch change something.

Sure that a lot people will be surprised if they win out of their traditionals professions. Things change, accepting them and adapting even if it implies a change or evolution is the right thing to do.

> @"Dragostorm.2453" said:

> mirage has a tonne of mobility the dodge now just plays as a damage dodge. (check me out in like 3 weeks of PVP and a nervous breakdown when I attempt a fractal raid with it).

The single dodge today is mainly used to kite with sword ambush, you rarely have the oportunity to use it offensively with axe. Tonne of mobility? Less than before if you count two ambushes to kite and the staff 2 in the old builds.

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Zoser.7245" said:

> > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > @"Zoser.7245" said:

> > > > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > > > @"Heika.5403" said:

> > > > > > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > > > > soi doesn't really add survivability tbh, after activating soi clone production is very poor - it better be to end the current skirmish by killing the enemy or not dying, otherwise you're very weak in your upcoming 60 sec

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > the hardest mesmer builds to play involve soi, it's potential is indeed very high with 8 aoe dazes, 8 sec invul or mass damage but wasting it makes you absolutely useless - i guess that's where most mesmer players are struggling with

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > imo mirage is quite strong right now, and plainly giving back the 2nd dodge would be too much - considering main offenders rev, nec will be nerfed so the bar will be lowered anyway

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > chronomancer need severe adjustments though

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's not. When those offenders are tunned down maybe. But you don't know if Mirage sustain will be nerfed. SO those potential clones could soon be a thing of the past together with other nerf and added to the one dodge man list. So suppose things means nothing until the next big change to sustain is done. And no one is talking about giving back the second dodge without balance other aspects and traits, skills or ambush.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The claims are that, we lost play with dodges as a fun mechanics and a effective one to make combos, so now, Mirage is a lot more boring to play despite if it is more or less viable or usable. We are not playing here as a work, there is no professional league in GW2, we are here to have fun playing. And balance making things more boring and undesirable like they did with Chronomancer or Mirage is not or should not be the way to go. Make customers be upset and remove the fun from how they can play is not a solution. There is always several ways to do and solve the things when you balance. Sadly they seems to do it without think in all aspect of the game involved and the consequencies are less people playing what they ruin or even quitting to play other games.

> > > > >

> > > > > ye and i think otherwise, that current meta mesmer build is more fun than the previous one

> > > > > i find mirage, relatively speaking, just as strong as before the balance patch - my rating is also the same as previous seasons

> > > >

> > > > Then, why didn't you play the new meta build before? Sorry but something doesn't fit. If your rating is the same and it is assumed that the previous build was OP when we had two dodges ... Something does not fit your statement. You should have lost rank or previously had a better one since it was an OP build. The new one is not as strong, in that case people will be here complaining and it's not the case. But ok, each one has its own opinion. Glad to watch that a single mesmer consider more fun the lose of one dodge when the same utilities and elite are used with small variation and after they ruined chaos trait line. Those mus be funny things. Well, then lets see what more they can change and ruin to make the next single build usable more fun.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > with relatively speaking, i mean its position in the current meta, so compared to other classes

> > > the amount of mesmers on the leaderboard is the same as previous seasons, same mesmers in plat2, 3 or legend - so its not just me

> > >

> > > the previous meta mesmer build was mostly just running around spamming dodges, for this i have to say it's almost a fact and not an opinion the current shatter builds are more fun to play

> > > it's not just the same utilities with small variations, it's completely different role and playstyle. Previously dueling and chaos were used, now mostly illusions and domination, how is this the same?

> >

> > Is still a spamming fest between rotations. The main change is that you now you are a +1 and can't kill by yourself most of the time. After next balance, we will see. So yes the role is different. The execution is basically the same but with lower capabilities and more defensive tools, plus some team help with AoE cleanings and boon removal. The most important skill is know how to rotate and where to help each time. Before, you should be more skilled to be a decapper, another history was if X or Y build or state of balance with Mirage was OP. Think about a fight with a single dodge before the patch... It's obvious. Now you are relegated to +1. But if you enjoy more now , perfect for you. With a bit of luck, maybe you'll even enjoy more after the expected sustain nerf.

>

> I am just wondering where is the expected sustain nerf to Mirage coming from? Tbh the last class in need of any nerfs based on one dodge is Mesmer while i think there are a lot of other classes clearly overperforming in terms of sustain. Any further nerfs to Mirage/ Mesmer at this point would be a joke. I mean sure it is Anet, means every stupid nonsense balance is possible, and Helisomething NA Top 1-6 hates Mesmer, probably because it needs more skill than other stuff to be broken and easy abused... but can it be there will be even more Mesmer nerfs?

You gave yourself the answer... It's Arenanet. So you can expect whatever bizarre things their minds can develop. Be patient. Sure that we will debating about it in few weeks or moths.

> @"Koen.1327" said:

> > @"Zoser.7245" said:

> > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > @"Heika.5403" said:

> > > > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > > > soi doesn't really add survivability tbh, after activating soi clone production is very poor - it better be to end the current skirmish by killing the enemy or not dying, otherwise you're very weak in your upcoming 60 sec

> > > > >

> > > > > the hardest mesmer builds to play involve soi, it's potential is indeed very high with 8 aoe dazes, 8 sec invul or mass damage but wasting it makes you absolutely useless - i guess that's where most mesmer players are struggling with

> > > > >

> > > > > imo mirage is quite strong right now, and plainly giving back the 2nd dodge would be too much - considering main offenders rev, nec will be nerfed so the bar will be lowered anyway

> > > > >

> > > > > chronomancer need severe adjustments though

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > It's not. When those offenders are tunned down maybe. But you don't know if Mirage sustain will be nerfed. SO those potential clones could soon be a thing of the past together with other nerf and added to the one dodge man list. So suppose things means nothing until the next big change to sustain is done. And no one is talking about giving back the second dodge without balance other aspects and traits, skills or ambush.

> > > >

> > > > The claims are that, we lost play with dodges as a fun mechanics and a effective one to make combos, so now, Mirage is a lot more boring to play despite if it is more or less viable or usable. We are not playing here as a work, there is no professional league in GW2, we are here to have fun playing. And balance making things more boring and undesirable like they did with Chronomancer or Mirage is not or should not be the way to go. Make customers be upset and remove the fun from how they can play is not a solution. There is always several ways to do and solve the things when you balance. Sadly they seems to do it without think in all aspect of the game involved and the consequencies are less people playing what they ruin or even quitting to play other games.

> > >

> > > ye and i think otherwise, that current meta mesmer build is more fun than the previous one

> > > i find mirage, relatively speaking, just as strong as before the balance patch - my rating is also the same as previous seasons

> >

> > Then, why didn't you play the new meta build before? Sorry but something doesn't fit. If your rating is the same and it is assumed that the previous build was OP when we had two dodges ... Something does not fit your statement. You should have lost rank or previously had a better one since it was an OP build. The new one is not as strong, in that case people will be here complaining and it's not the case. But ok, each one has its own opinion. Glad to watch that a single mesmer consider more fun the lose of one dodge when the same utilities and elite are used with small variation and after they ruined chaos trait line. Those mus be funny things. Well, then lets see what more they can change and ruin to make the next single build usable more fun.

> >

> >

>

> with relatively speaking, i mean its position in the current meta, so compared to other classes

> the amount of mesmers on the leaderboard is the same as previous seasons, same mesmers in plat2, 3 or legend - so its not just me

>

> the previous meta mesmer build was mostly just running around spamming dodges, for this i have to say it's almost a fact and not an opinion the current shatter builds are more fun to play

> it's not just the same utilities with small variations, it's completely different role and playstyle. Previously dueling and chaos were used, now mostly illusions and domination, how is this the same?

Is still a spamming fest between rotations. The main change is that you now you are a +1 and can't kill by yourself most of the time. After next balance, we will see. So yes the role is different. The execution is basically the same but with lower capabilities and more defensive tools, plus some team help with AoE cleanings and boon removal. The most important skill is know how to rotate and where to help each time. Before, you should be more skilled to be a decapper, another history was if X or Y build or state of balance with Mirage was OP. Think about a fight with a single dodge before the patch... It's obvious. Now you are relegated to +1. But if you enjoy more now , perfect for you. With a bit of luck, maybe you'll even enjoy more after the expected sustain nerf.

> @"Koen.1327" said:

> > @"Heika.5403" said:

> > > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > > soi doesn't really add survivability tbh, after activating soi clone production is very poor - it better be to end the current skirmish by killing the enemy or not dying, otherwise you're very weak in your upcoming 60 sec

> > >

> > > the hardest mesmer builds to play involve soi, it's potential is indeed very high with 8 aoe dazes, 8 sec invul or mass damage but wasting it makes you absolutely useless - i guess that's where most mesmer players are struggling with

> > >

> > > imo mirage is quite strong right now, and plainly giving back the 2nd dodge would be too much - considering main offenders rev, nec will be nerfed so the bar will be lowered anyway

> > >

> > > chronomancer need severe adjustments though

> > >

> >

> > It's not. When those offenders are tunned down maybe. But you don't know if Mirage sustain will be nerfed. SO those potential clones could soon be a thing of the past together with other nerf and added to the one dodge man list. So suppose things means nothing until the next big change to sustain is done. And no one is talking about giving back the second dodge without balance other aspects and traits, skills or ambush.

> >

> > The claims are that, we lost play with dodges as a fun mechanics and a effective one to make combos, so now, Mirage is a lot more boring to play despite if it is more or less viable or usable. We are not playing here as a work, there is no professional league in GW2, we are here to have fun playing. And balance making things more boring and undesirable like they did with Chronomancer or Mirage is not or should not be the way to go. Make customers be upset and remove the fun from how they can play is not a solution. There is always several ways to do and solve the things when you balance. Sadly they seems to do it without think in all aspect of the game involved and the consequencies are less people playing what they ruin or even quitting to play other games.

>

> ye and i think otherwise, that current meta mesmer build is more fun than the previous one

> i find mirage, relatively speaking, just as strong as before the balance patch - my rating is also the same as previous seasons

Then, why didn't you play the new meta build before? Sorry but something doesn't fit. If your rating is the same and it is assumed that the previous build was OP when we had two dodges ... Something does not fit your statement. You should have lost rank or previously had a better one since it was an OP build. The new one is not as strong, in that case people will be here complaining and it's not the case. But ok, each one has its own opinion. Glad to watch that a single mesmer consider more fun the lose of one dodge when the same utilities and elite are used with small variation and after they ruined chaos trait line, glamours, etc. And not only now forced to be more defensive, also forced to escape most of the time instead of be in the fight. Those must be funny things. Well, then lets see what more they can change and ruin to make the next single build usable even more fun for you.

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > Yeah we don't agree, just keep in mind that either core will be used to lock burst, either mirage but the two can hardly be at the same level of efficiency so you will not have a choice while with a core doing lock burst and a mirage doing roaming+1 (mainly thanks the mobility needed for roaming it gives.) you can chose what to play.

>

> As said when you are happy with one dodge and with the Coremesmer portal+debuff bot build as the one and only semi viable build for Mesmer, then all is good. GG Anet you did a good job with Mirage! I take everything back i ever said and will now say the opposite! Based on that new insights i got from the Mesmer god Viquing i will from now on praise Anet balance each morning and evening for the insane class- and elite spec knowledge they have shown when dealing with Mesmer. Mesmer mains are happy, no need for me to fight for a balance that makes more sense, adds more skill ceiling and doesn't contradict the basic mechanics of Mirage and the general dodgemanagement.

The more practical is not play mesmer. That is, if only 2 or 3 persons play is in rankeds and ignored everywhere or in a ridiculous quantity compared with how much other professions are played. Then, maybe, an only maybe they could to something with it. The bad news are that, watching the state of Chronomaner and that they literally don't care. Well, the most plausible idea is that the changes done and other upcoming will stay there forever.

Now waiting for what they nerf from Mirage/Mesmer in term of sustain. Maybe they could cut the clone generation by half so we could call it: "One dodge, half illusions man". Witch could means that, why not, from that point, IP could only count as a half illusion in terms of damage and timers. At least it'll be not as bad as add a long internal CD to IP. But lets see what they balance next time from Mirage... I'm trying to figure what they can nerf from Mirage and Mesmer in terms of sustain and if that could delete any plausible viability as i doubt we will be reworked with a new probable specialization upcoming.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Ansau.7326" said:

> > As someone who has mained mesmer since gw2 launch, I've realized there is a thing with anet not being comfortable with mesmers staying relevant in big scale fights. At the beggining we had glamour confusion build but it was destroyed like 6 months after game release. Later we had boonshare but it only lasted less than a year until it became subpar. And finally we had minstrel mantra chrono which was also destroyed 1 year after it was born.

> >

> > But beyond that, in the recent years anet has taken a very dull and toxic approach to balance mesmer by adding huge trade offs, and the worst part is it seems anet doesn't has any intention to revert it. Mesmer is doomed to live with trade off mechanics that work against its main ones.

> > - Core: Overnerfed core specs because elites "are" too strong.

> > - Chrono: No IP in an elite based on shatters.

> > - Mirage: 1 dodge in an elite based on dodges.

> >

> > In Vanilla, mesmer was one of the hardest classes to play, with complex damage setups but without any of the passive sustain most other professions had (clone death build was the exception, but an exclusive WvW dueling build has never been relevant for anet or gw2).

> >

> > With HoT and new trait system based on specs, anet finally put mesmer in a similar level as the rest. Suddenly, the community realized mesmer being equal as others was not ok and the doom of mesmer began.

> > Happened with chrono at the beggining (apparently it was ok for druids, scrappers and guards to be unkillable tanks but not chrono), happened with mirage (apparently it was ok for thiefs and weavers to jump and evade through everything but not for mirages), and happened for core power mesmer (it is ok for thieves, soulbeasts and holos to cc+oneshot you from stealth with 2-3 skills but not for mesmers when you burn half of your skill set).

> >

> > This unreasonable drama reaction has led anet to act like they did. They cannot balance mesmer in a sensible way because the community doesn't want a balanced mesmer, they are only fine as long as mesmer is nerfed. Unfortunately, when this trend and behavior extends for years, surprise surprise, that's what we end up with.

> >

> > Once you have experience with several profession you realize how much higher the bar is set for mesmer compared to others. How much you need to chain skills and mechanics to achieve mediocre results, when others is 1 button = 8k AoE damage or speading condis faster than covid. And how your sustain is entirely based on limited evades and the few invuls/blocks that are easily outplayed, when others is let me show you how I spend 20s chaining evades/invuls/blocks or how my sustained healing beats your DPS.

> >

> > My suggestion, forget about mesmer and have fun with anything else.

>

> The community doesn't want a glorified pet class oppressing the rest of the playerbase because in the end , the only time when mesmer became popular was when **pet specs** were viable like core sword phantasm camper - chrono bunker and staff camper IH condi mirage...basically every time mesmer had access to some brainless low effort=huge reward buid.

>

> I remember learning that core phantasm build back in the days, signet of illusions was used ...can't remember and the build was all about keeping the phantasm alive , it was dealing 5-6k dmg while you could go tanky...took one day to learn it..then we had chrono bunker...urghhhh...finally condi mirage..god.

>

> Oh and blur into stealth into dodge evasive reflect into distortion into stealth into blur again into something else like chaos field...that's not something..."easily outplayed" lol, that's an invulnerability chain not even unblockable go through because we're talking about **evasion frames acting as an invulnerability**....time to face reality, GW2 mesmer got nothing of the complex class in GW1, the current one is simply a badly designed super duellist with easily abusing mechanics

At this point who cares. The only thing that mesmers with common sense do now is run like a chicken when a bruiser with sustain or a revenan/herald appears on the screen, also when they smell a thief even if they can't watch them. But if at some point someone discover something to make them shine, it'll be obliterated again asap. The past is history, when someone with "illusion" was working to make mesmers a thing, the nighmare is the future. Now, better play something else.

> @"DylanLucas.6058" said:

> I also find it funny how quiet ArenaNet developers stay when it comes to these kinda topics......

>

> Yeah mesmer ruined and feels very weak.....

And they are even paid for it. Nice way to have customers happy making their professions and specializations more woring to play and some even not desirable. I have great ideas to make the rest of professions and specializations more boring to play with a Great balance/rework. Maybe i should ask for a job in Arenanet in the balance team. I'll do a great job in the same way they did with Chronomancer and the "One dodge man" with the rest of professions and their specializations.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"kraai.7265" said:

> > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> > > > @"kraai.7265" said:

> > > > Hi, IMO

> > > > Step 1: Restore the second dodge.

> > > > Step 2: Remove the ability dodge while stunned.

> > > > Step 2: Remove the ability to apply condis from clones.

> > > > Removing the most annoying mechanic, then the most broken one, leaving IH only as a good visual distraction.

> > > > And ofcourse revert the mediocre chrono rework they did a few months ago.

> > > > Maybe that will make me come back.

> > >

> > > Why would anyone pick IH over EM if your suggestion is implemented?

> > > I love it when people make "high IQ" suggestions and don't think about ramifications.

> >

> > Good point I forgot about that. Step 4: Bring exhaustion back. Solved.

>

> tldr

> nerf IH

> nerf EM

> nerf dodge

> job done :D

Why search for enemies when you already have them at home? Your worst enemy is always close to you. ;)

> @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> > @"kraai.7265" said:

> > Hi, IMO

> > Step 1: Restore the second dodge.

> > Step 2: Remove the ability dodge while stunned.

> > Step 2: Remove the ability to apply condis from clones.

> > Removing the most annoying mechanic, then the most broken one, leaving IH only as a good visual distraction.

> > And ofcourse revert the mediocre chrono rework they did a few months ago.

> > Maybe that will make me come back.

>

> Why would anyone pick IH over EM if your suggestion is implemented?

> I love it when people make "high IQ" suggestions and don't think about ramifications.

Nah, they only want to nerf Mirage even more so they don't have to care about it, but in fact, they already can ignore it or obliterate the Mirage with every meta profession/specialization in every match. Chronomancer is not going to be reverted, it was a design decision and it works as they decided. The only thing it could help Chronomancer without another rework is allow Distortion on Continuum Split to increase its duration with the amount of illusions you shatter. And i have my doubts if they'll even consider do it. What they could decide is do like they did with Chrono and add a global trade-off to Mirage in the future...

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Zoser.7245" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > No balance changes today... feelsbadman

> >

> > The next patch is expected in two weeks, April 28. Probably that one could a balance patch and the next living world content or festival in May 12 when the super adventure ends or later. But who knows... What i watch is that, on April 28, a patch should be relased.

>

> Ok what did i miss? Why 28th? Was that mentioned somewhere?

There is a web page that is always right about the expected patch date. I believe that they have some internal info about it. So i'm confident of those dates unless something extraordinary change the developers and Arenanet plans.

Until now, since a long long time that i discovered that web page. All the expected dates were right:

https://www.thatshaman.com/tools/countdown/

;)

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> No balance changes today... feelsbadman

The next patch is expected in two weeks, April 28. Probably that one could a balance patch and the next living world content or festival in May 12 when the super adventure ends or later. But who knows... What i watch is that, on April 28, a patch should be relased.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > > > yea I think the opposite is true. mesmers are in need of a buff.

> > > > >

> > > > > No they don't....**mesmers for the first time in 5 years** have to work for their kills...for the past 5 years every average Joe could jump on mesmer and become a duellist god, many with time started to actually believe to be the hottest thing around. Dunno how many times in the past I would duel some clowns and win easy.....only for these living jokes to re-login on their **condi mesmer** and become 1v1 pro like that.

> > > > >

> > > > > Blur into distortion into stealth into distortion into dodge into stealth into blur again......**a massive uncounterable defensive rotation** that would make even the worst player out there look like a god; all those dodges also come with their perks because...why not?! and so we have clones cannon fodder ....reflection..yup...

> > > > >

> > > > > 80% of current mesmer population are just some FOTM rerollers who jumped on the class after Hot launch thx to chrono bunker BS, chrono condi burst then PoF mirage etc etc, they never learnt to actually play the class and all its nuances.

> > > > >

> > > > > You can easily tell the difference between core mesmers from launch and staff clone ambush campers ( vast majority of which just spend their time on the forum asking for buffs), the latter run quickly out of steam and start crying once their "invincible" strategy fails, no more able to let their clones do all the works ( funny the same people then complain about ranger saying how pet does all the dmg..amusing) while they just staff 2/stealth/hide like champs and climb like hell.

> > > > >

> > > > > No more cocky condi champs running and laughing at you in wvw it seems...**good riddance**

> > > >

> > > > I did not play mesmer because it's Fotm. It was my first class. Also mesmer hasn't been an optimal build metabattle for ages. Yeah, mesmers stomp trash players and I've acknowledged that, but outside that, they're not really that great and haven't been since the change in phantasm. At least seemingly so as I missed the time in between them removing phantasms and S4 end when I came back. The class like 6 months ago was maybe working for kills because there were still some plat mesmers. Now it's hot garbage that probably still confuses absolute noobs, but is useless against anything with a head between its shoulders.

> > >

> > > After taking the salt and the drama away..this is how your post read : " The class now still outperform against new players but will leave average results against more experienced ones "...yeah that's called **balance**, mesmer mains should get used to it, time would be better invested in learning a class post FOTM levels ( even if in theory that should have been done way before jumping on mesmer train )

> > >

> > > To reiterate what I stated days ago : **80% of current mesmers are FOTM rerollers** who started acting up in pvp and gain relevance after chrono release , they were not around when @"Helseth.5069" (long live the king ) was at his prime , these "mesmers" will now cry their eyes out on the forum asking for a level of buff that will understandably never come.

> > >

> > > The only way for threads to work would be for **mesmer to reach the same levels of ele in 2013** when the class was so bad for real that the devs found themselves forced **to cancel most of the recently applied nerfs**.

> > >

> > > Right now mesmer is no more that insta duel win powerhouse , a reality that is here to stay and a reality all these mesmer "main" need to get used to

> >

> > You know what happens when you assume, right?

>

> I don't assume anything here...I know that many mesmer main are just bitter , now they get to kiss the ground when doing too many mistakes and it's a feeling you now must get used to..a feeling ele players have been knowing for the last 5 years.

> Many classes have been described as "duellist"...all of them suffered the same fate..all curb nerfed from stardom to the stalls , then built back somehow bit by bit in another light.

>

> The "I win as long as I don't feel asleep on the keyboard"..it's over, now sometimes you win...other you lose , welcome to real life

At the moment all I see is that the sustain in many professions is very high. And the Mirages spend most of their trying to escape since they are immediately exposed after a short fight often with almost no health. That happens to even the best players analizing their latest streamings. In any of the streams of the top players you can analyze and see which profession is the one that dies most often now and is the weakest one. I think that you already imagine which it is, right? Yes Mesmers of any kind. The sustain is going to be nerfed, not sure how that will affect Mesmers but after that balance we will see how that affect each one.

What is true and very likely, is that the number of people playing mesmers is declining for now, the re-roll wave is already happening and many that were playing mesmer are already playing other professions. But that will always happen regardless of which class is dominating or more rewarding to play with less effort. Those people will always change from one to another and they are not mesmers. They are a large majority that always want to ride or bet to the winning horse regardless of their rank. Link that people to Mesmers is a big error, those players don't have a class as identity, they only join what is OP. That the Mirage ends up in the trash won't change that. You'll find the same people over and over playing the most OP or easier for win. Literally because with the few population who actually play PvP today, there is no other option for you but to see them daily. And even worse for you, not only do you have to endure them daily but also the day they get tired and quit the game, maybe there will no more people with whom you can play.

That there is an upcoming expansion does not guarantee that PvP will have a bigger player base. Good to know that you enjoy watching others bite the dust and kiss the ground. That already gives us an idea of ​​what ilk you are. It is good to know it and be warned.

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> > I tuned in to Teapot's Teatime only to hear that according to Teapot, Mirage is butchered. Thank the Maker CMC ignored the stipulation. The class is clearly over performing still. Nerf it already ANET!

> >

> > @ArenaNet

> Was it only mirage? I thought it was the entire class which was butchered?

> But ye CMC is the MVP, ignored the question like a champ. He just couldnt tell him more nerfs are coming :joy:

Wait until the next balance patch. Once they nerf your sustain and add the ethereal energy management, you'll have to drink several potions of that s**t before press each of your OP skills to make them work. Mirrors then will no longer damage, instead, they'll come with chairs and let you and your teammates take seat and have a coffee while watching your beauty on them, so finally they'll become very useful.