viquing.8254

Yes because mesmer was more fun before june 2015.

And more practically there is many way to brain them and few to make them work, particulary in a aoe fiesta PvP scenario where time catches up and old signet of illusions aren't a things anymore.

Remember when mesmers were everywhere on LB...

Ho wait, it only appear during chronotank hypes (on EU at last.).

Hopefully people play less efficients classes for all remaining seasons.

By the way, see you next patch if it ever come.

9v9 with 1 of each class just for the meme and bypass balance.

"What happened to this game..." :

Casualisation.

With time to time marketing people who took balance people jobs.

Is there more diversity in WvW thanks to gear and food : yes.

Did WvW put op things to an insane level :yes

And the carrying extrapolation has way more impact than the diversity things.

That's why WvW is meh when talking about class balance

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > 1. you guys underrate mirage

> > I get bored of mes yeah.

> > Now about the underrating, we can always look at At or ladder representation but it's certainly not a "feeling", same about the clunky mechanics discussed who are in oppositions.

> > > 2. buffs/reworks for core seems more pertinent than for mirage atm

> > Vicious expression, yeah because it's a real choice between GM.

> > Bountiful blade, no because it's a weapon trait who work on 2 skills of the said weapon.

> > Duelling destruction because of mirage, no.

> > Chaotic interruption, no.

> > Master of manipulation nerf, yes but not in a world where holo/ranger/rev move way faster than you.

> > Signet of inspiration rework, no.

> > Don't remember more impactfull core change.

> > So well yeah IMO we have a 2/6 pertinents changes, hopefully there is players who find more pertinence to perpetuate the species.

> >

>

> didnt understand what you meant with most of this, due to language. im just saying; it would be more relevant to buff core mes seeing as both core and chrono are worse than mirage atm.

My bad, I didn't understand the initial meaning.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> 1. you guys underrate mirage

I get bored of mes yeah.

Now about the underrating, we can always look at At or ladder representation but it's certainly not a "feeling", same about the clunky mechanics discussed who are in oppositions.

> 2. buffs/reworks for core seems more pertinent than for mirage atm

Vicious expression, yeah because it's a real choice between GM.

Bountiful blade, no because it's a weapon trait who work on 2 skills of the said weapon.

Duelling destruction because of mirage, no.

Chaotic interruption, no.

Master of manipulation nerf, yes but not in a world where holo/ranger/rev move way faster than you.

Signet of inspiration rework, no.

Don't remember more impactfull core change.

So well yeah IMO we have a 2/6 pertinents changes, hopefully there is players who find more pertinence to perpetuate the species.

Yeah that's I was thinking.

I get kinda bored of getting outspeed by necs, facetanked by gards & engis, aoe rollfaced by revs&necs, plasmaed by thieves, permacced by ele, outCDed by ranger+pet, FC illusions by wars.

Time to take a rest I guess.

Any news ?

Did thieves want Time warp or Moa as non joke ulti with their 180/120 CD ?

@"Xaylin.1860", @"Taril.8619" :

From a PvP perspective, old disenchanter or defender meant :

- With defender, a way to sustain better on point which opened other builds from the classical condichrono. Now we have somethings who didn't give any sustain, is static and never hit.

- With disenchanter : A third option to condiclear/boonrip apart AT. Now that you can only boonrip with it, you can't use it because of the condiclear loss aspect + the high CD which make it useless against 80% of situation where people pop multiple low duration boon.

Glad it's use in PvE but in my gamemode it went from 20% uses before rework to 0% after the end balancing(nerf) their rework.

Even by removing all other utilities I don't think defender can ever be good in PvP and disenchanter would be at best another damaging utility....

Note : I always find chronophantasma as a things who never should exists because of the balance problems who result...

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > Don't take it mad but warrior were the definition of 3 in 1 skills. Mean I clic and it did multiple strong effects each clics.

> > 4k old bullcharge = 1 evade + 1 hard CC + mobility + damage spike.

> > 2k5-> 4k old Reckless dodge = old mesmer clone death on steroïds (traits who get removed gutting a third of mesmer gameplay because of cheese.). => main damage output when facing goku or boyce.

> > Old berserker Head butt = same as old bullcharge = breakstunt + hard CC + damage + jump.

> >

> > Don't know if you understand some classes had to perform a 4 to 5 actions combo to do the same result as war prepatch.

> >

> > Mean now war have to choose between sustain or damage and can't have the two in the same build which is the goal of the last big rework and what every spec should be.

>

> Currently only warrior and elementalist have to pick between sustain or damage. Every other class gets both for free, all the time, in half their trait lines.

When running power mirage I drop condiclear and had 1 breastunt. While on signet I have plethora of condi clear/disto while dropping pressure. That's the example of choice.

Fact is that defender and disenchanter were more used before rework than now...

Don't take it mad but warrior were the definition of 3 in 1 skills. Mean I clic and it did multiple strong effects each clics.

4k old bullcharge = 1 evade + 1 hard CC + mobility + damage spike.

2k5-> 4k old Reckless dodge = old mesmer clone death on steroïds (traits who get removed gutting a third of mesmer gameplay because of cheese.). => main damage output when facing goku or boyce.

Old berserker Head butt = same as old bullcharge = breakstunt + hard CC + damage + jump.

Don't know if you understand some classes had to perform a 4 to 5 actions combo to do the same result as war prepatch.

Mean now war have to choose between sustain or damage and can't have the two in the same build which is the goal of the last big rework and what every spec should be.

More burst and/or sustain than mirage who is more mobile instead.

For example :

PU core has better instant burst thanks to stealth setup. Illusion core shatter burst has higher burst.

Signet has more on point sustain than mirage.

Now mirage mobility is better in a +1 role.

The only reason for me to buy the next expac is if they give me reasons to play mes.

Certainly not by giving all mes particularity (portal, quickness, slow, alacrity, lockbuild, boonshare,...) to other class while they don't have the fucking illusion mechanic drawback.

Thanks for sharing and nice explanations !

The problem I have with thoses group fight build is the period when you haven't anything to do waiting for CD, even with perma alacrity while other class hadn't this drawback because they have weapon skills more dedicated.

I will give it a try trhough.

Core mesmer : bursty lootbag role.

Power mirage : mobile lootbag role.

Chrono : clony lootbag role.

Condi mirage : deceiptive lootbag role.

Signet : tanky lootbag role.

But hey there is also shiny pink effect role.

> @"Falan.1839" said:

> Not true, Power Rev has always been one of the more mechanically challenging classes since it can allow very little facetanking and depends on a kind of gapless execution of its cds and movement to survive. It still has very strong skills like Glint heal or IO, but it's definitely not outperforming other dps specs like Reaper or Nade Holo atm, quite to the contrary, those 2 builds are generally preferred over Power Rev atm.

>

> Easy builds are those like symbol guard who just mash their cds in a random order to put up passive pressure while their sustain allows them to keep facetanking, but definitely not squishy dps builds like Power Rev. If anything is broken about it than it is its easy and permanent access to portengages, but definitely not the damage it does or its ability to survive.

Even putting appart temporisarion uptime.

What about aoe spamming (can't count the number of time I get killed behind pill while kitting while having clone insta died), no real CD (you will never see a rev autoing because out of CD after lauching 4 skills combo), damage who hit before the animation ?

Sorry but seeing a rev rollfacing being rupt on his keyskills and still pressuring me to hell didn't serm challenging at all. I even prefer facing holo because he has more visible animations.

Yeah like mantra of distraction who can rupt behind and is a hudge part of defensive abilities. Ho wait....

Weren't they supposed to remove the ability to self high might uptime on every class a while ago ?

Haha,

Be carefull there is people who don't know you.

Just my two cents to not going into endless discussion about already discussed things : the old passive of SoIl (precise SoIl because there is SoIn) has more value in the sense that thanks to the vitality bonus you in theory don't need to overproduce clone to ensure you have something to shatter.

Means on most builds mesmers need ressources. You don't have many options :

* you can pop ranged clones who will not get insta killed.

* you overproduce clones to be sure you have something to shatter.

* you have clones with enough vitality to not get instaripped on random ennemy spam.

Idealy the choice between the three has to compete to not make them stack.

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > Reaper + anything.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > Solo

> > > > >

> > > > > * Flashbang Grenade Holosaiyan.

> > > > >

> > > > > Duo

> > > > >

> > > > > * Flashbang Grenade Holosaiyan

> > > > > * Tempest for keeping Holosaiyan alive and to make sure passive CC uptime is 100%

> > > >

> > > > All the top players are playing reaper + tempest or reaper + x. I don't understand what this holosmith complaining is on about

> > > >

> > > > If anything, this 2v2 just shows that DPS ele needs to be buffed.

> > > Idk man Helseth is playing mesmer with duo holo and its saying everyone is garbage in this game and he is kinda right.

> > >

> >

> > he also casually does 33% dmg of his holo partner :D

> But he is also the one that gets the downs, mesmer is not some grunt to get its hands dirty by slapping the filthy peasantry, 15 to 20k damage is all you need to kill someone if you do more you are terribly inefficient.

> Jokes aside he got to legend with the one dodge wonder and all the mesmer mains ditched it the moment it wasn't faceroll anymore, and i bet there is something broken OP on mesmer like always, there is always some angle with them kitten, but it is tucked away and everyone is waiting to be told how to play.

> Like every time Vallun drops a video and you get to play against his annoying build for the next 10 to 20 games.

> I'm not certain but i might have started the the flamethrower thing, all you have to do is play allot of games in unranked and get on AT stream so Teapot can hype it up to look like a good build and tada it is somehow meta for low tiers. Can you imagine that all that started cause some schmuck decided to play open world PVE tagging build in PVP.

> I'm trying to make berserker a thing, it is still kinda crappy since it lacks a lot, but i fully expect a kitten ton of berserkers to start running around pvp. Honestly can't wait for the "Berserker does too much damage" thread.

Well not all mesmers main stop playing.

It's not new that the lock potential can have uses. Before it has a high synergy with condirev, highlithed by jazz vids.

It's just that for the same skill there is more perfomant/less risky things.

Mean we will see how high he end when the season end when people get used to this.

Because last mid season for example I already hit top 20 on power mirage before dropping.

It will be interesting seing how long people stay.

> @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> > > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > If you want to buff mesmer in any capacity you absolutely NEED to delete 1 shot perma stealth mesmer. I just got out of a game where the mesmer was perma stealthed and INSTANTLY killing me on thief with 20645 HP from stealth. This was in a platinum level game, not low tier clown fiestas. There was no avoiding it - no dodging, no predicting it, the dude would burst you from stealth and you were INSTANTLY dead the second he hit you unless you were lucky and randomly dodging someone else. This is 20645 HP and 2029 armor - pretty absurd if you ask me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Imo, please make chrono an actual "support" and completely revamp wells to follow you around like facets with actives or something. Chrono could be really cool and fun but in it's current form it's either a bunker sitting with wells or just...useless.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mesmer in general should have its damage output reduced for all the utility and mobility it has.

> > > >

> > > > 7/7 traitline, all utilities syndrome ?

> > > > Mean when 75% class are more mobile, has more sustain and do good damage, and it's a reality, kitten did you even wrote.

> > > > Can you detail "all" mobility and utility you talk about please.

> > > >

> > >

> > > That classic mesmer bias showing. Mobility contains in-combat one as well. You know what utility means, I shouldn't have to explain it to you.

> >

> > Yeah so can you list what you yave in mind.

> > You know real data, not jut another mesmer hater random whine.

> > Because as far as I know the only things better than other is vertical staff 2 and jaunt. Which don't make you win a cap game, don't work on every map and which didn't work against 6/9 classes.

> > And staff already did no damage.

> > So I'm pretty curioys about which mobility justify no damage.

>

> Probably the same one mesmer mains use to justify their thief nerf requests.

>

> "Jaunt" has 3 charges. and they can used offensively as well. It's like a deadeye saying they only got access to Shadow Meld for stealth. The amount of overall jail-free cards is quite astounding. Same issue as with holo and, to an extent, herald.

>

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" nope, you should explain what you mean. We are not psychic and cant know what goes in your head.

> > Most people look at sword 3, blink and think what an amazing mobility! while in reality we get outruned by people simply having swiftness and holding W key. ::disappointed:

>

> Swiftness matters little if you're dead from stealth.

>

>

Jaunt is 2 charges.

If you are dead from stealth you would die versus any other burst class. There isn't stunlock anymore and damages were heavily nerfed. Not even talking about the lack of out of jail because contrary to deadeye because you cite it, you can't bypass reveal. There is a reason mesmer isn't meta.

So 3 out of jail, 4 depending of location is useless. Particulary when 6/9 class can counter it by normal rotation.

On top of that I'm curious about your suggestions because you probably understand that balancing a class so she only tickle an opponent who is sleeping on a point will not make it viable at all. (Which is actually he case btw and why you don't see mesmers in LB or mAt.).

Mean wow I'm suppercool having tools who teleport away when the opponent cap the point laughting at me.

> @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > If you want to buff mesmer in any capacity you absolutely NEED to delete 1 shot perma stealth mesmer. I just got out of a game where the mesmer was perma stealthed and INSTANTLY killing me on thief with 20645 HP from stealth. This was in a platinum level game, not low tier clown fiestas. There was no avoiding it - no dodging, no predicting it, the dude would burst you from stealth and you were INSTANTLY dead the second he hit you unless you were lucky and randomly dodging someone else. This is 20645 HP and 2029 armor - pretty absurd if you ask me.

> > > >

> > > > Imo, please make chrono an actual "support" and completely revamp wells to follow you around like facets with actives or something. Chrono could be really cool and fun but in it's current form it's either a bunker sitting with wells or just...useless.

> > >

> > > Mesmer in general should have its damage output reduced for all the utility and mobility it has.

> >

> > 7/7 traitline, all utilities syndrome ?

> > Mean when 75% class are more mobile, has more sustain and do good damage, and it's a reality, kitten did you even wrote.

> > Can you detail "all" mobility and utility you talk about please.

> >

>

> That classic mesmer bias showing. Mobility contains in-combat one as well. You know what utility means, I shouldn't have to explain it to you.

Yeah so can you list what you yave in mind.

You know real data, not jut another mesmer hater random whine.

Because as far as I know the only things better than other is vertical staff 2 and jaunt. Which don't make you win a cap game, don't work on every map and which didn't work against 6/9 classes.

And staff already did no damage.

So I'm pretty curioys about which mobility justify no damage.