viquing.8254
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Posts posted by viquing.8254
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > Surprise surprise the rev didn't stay all the time at 90% HP. When he get +1 ing in the second link, he was at 10%. And this this with A WAR.
> >
> > > I never said they would always stay at 90%? I said they *wouldnt die*. In the 7+ minute fight in MOTA, both players hit 10% a few times, but as you can tell by the way I called it, in 7+ minutes neither died. The only healthpoint that matters is the last one. The point is that in a 1v1, he wouldnt die, and the first video illustrates it beautifully because that fight went on for a while, the rev hasnt even used all his cooldowns, and it was clear there is no way in sight.
> > >
> > Hmm seems like a turn back for you.
> > If people go to 10% life, we aren't in a tank meta, or you never played a real tank meta.
>
> In the cele ele meta, one of said cele eles dropping to 10% at any point was not unusual by any means. The problem, just like right now, is that they then heal up immediately, and you will keep fighting them for a few more minutes without ever killing them. A "tank" is just someone who doesnt die. Not someone who doesnt take damage. That would be inachievable anyway.
Which is not the case, I don't see a rev coming back from 10% to 100% HP in 2 sec apart if player don't how to stop attacking during infuse light.
Then putting rev apart because I already state that he need some tweak, how many other class are able to come from 10% to full health in seconds huh ?
> > > > In this second vid, even without the +1, the dev still die. No you were not good enough to understand than fighting is more than just burst and rotate.
> > >
> > > Nope, he wouldnt. As I said, he was back up to 43% with healing incoming, his next defensive cooldowns being close to up, and the warriors offensive cooldowns being pretty depleted. Without the +1, the fight wouldve gone on for another *agonising* 7 minutes without a death. And no, you were not good enough to understand that the old meta was not *at all* "burst and rotate". If anything that describes the current meta more, where you outnumber, burst down, then move on to outnumber more. Because thats the only way you kill players.
> > Nop currently you have to take time to make the opponent :
> > 1) reach low life.
>
> You dont "take time" for this. You just kill time, and even then making them "reach low life" is meaningless, they immediately heal back up and youre back to square 1.
Sure walking in a map instead of fighting is a way more efficient way to spend time. If you like running, WvW is one more time the best mode for you.
> > 2) +1 ing if you can't finish him.
> >
>
> You *have* to +1 because no one can finish anyone without it. Again, you dont take time doing this.
Play squish ranger vs squish mes vs squish thief vs squish gard vs squish reaper vs squish ele vs squish engi vs squish war. Show me how none of them :
1) Take more than 30 sec to die of having to run away.
2) Don't die if they stay in fight.
Apart few build THAT ARE BUILD that are problematics, you must only meet meta tank my poor, hopefully I'm always meeting diversity in my game because your game look so depressing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> > Whereas before you just run with 3 +1 destroying everything in 20 sec or make people left points at view.
>
> Once again, thats the *current* meta. Before you fought 1v1s and 2v2s and actually had them result in kills. You werent forced to wait for +1s, and hell, unlike now only the thief focused on +1ing, instead of *literally everyone*.
Nop, I don't meet 2 thieves + 1 rev running around killing everything like it was the case pre-patch.
> > > > A low skill meta where player just have to concentrate 10 sec every 30 sec mean nothing for me. But I understand that some people have concentration issue and fight with a higher duration time look kinda hard for them. So they just want an easy game where they can just burst and walk away.
> > >
> > > Yes, we get it. You dont understand that the old meta was a high-skill meta, and the current meta is a super low-skill meta. You dont understand that the old meta wasnt "concentrate 10 seconds every 30 seconds", but long fights where mistakes are lethal. You dont understand that a 30 second fight where you have to think and time the entire time is far more skillful than a 7 minute fight where you turn off your brain, and just spam everything off cooldown while waiting for one of your teammates to outnumber you so you can kill the enemy.
> > There wasn't "long fight" there were people kitting 5 m around point because the damage were too high.
>
> Yes, we know that in your fantasy land that was a thing that happened. Sadly in reality, it didnt. In reality, they didnt "kite around the point", they went on the point, fought, and if they lost (which mind you was *actually a thing that happened*) they either died, or disengaged and rotated elsewhere. Thats good. But no, there were long fights, they were the norm. 30 seconds to a minute fights on point before someone lost. Instead of 7+ minute fights where no one ever loses.
This :
is my fantasy land ?Highlight me the time where they were fighting on point please, I fail to see it. Sure they went on point, they take atomic damage and they come back fighting around. Dunno where you live but we haven't the same minutes.
> > If you think that Ajaxx in the vid "just spam everything off cooldown" to get the rev 10%hp, you will probably never progress in PvP. You should try WvW where you can get high spike thanks to gear&foods.
>
> I hate to tell you this, but that is pretty much what he did, barring any "out of range" considerations. But let me mention something more important. Take a look at what the Rev was doing. Which is making mistakes. He doesnt dodge any of the important skills and wastes his dodges for mobility twice. He misuses his glint heal barely getting anything out of it, and wastes his staff block and evade. And despite making *this many critical mistakes*, without a +1, he wouldnt have died. *That* should tell you everything about how low-skill the meta is. No wonder you like it.
Wait did you just write that timing is more important than rollface ? And with only rollface you didn't do anything ?
Hint : it's the definition of skill.
The difference is that before with rollface you could put high pressure with no efforts.
> > > I understand you have trouble with not making major mistakes which got you killed in the previous high-skill meta. So you just want an easy game where you can faceroll the keyboard, constantly make grave mistakes, and never die.
> > I understand you don't have trouble playing thief in the last low-skill meta considering the ladder pre-patch. so you just want your easy kill back and feel strong.
> >
>
> Mate, if youre going to use an ad hominem because youve run out of actual arguments but dont want to admit that you were wrong the entire time, at least try a *little bit* harder? I didnt play Thief pre-patch. I played Core Grenade Engineer. Same thing as now, though I used slightly different traits and skills. But here is the thing. Thief pre-patch was still a +1. It kills just as easily now as it does before, because it only killed in +1s. Nothing changed for thief. So the ad hominem fails on 2 levels.
Mate, for the moment I link 2 to 3 times more prooves than you, about my ad hominem, It's not for you but for readers just to make them look at your post history just to get an idea of the hominem.
> Fact is, the current meta as you can see by that Rev above is super low-skill. The previous meta was high-skill. You want to be like that rev. You want to be able to make countless mistakes (since you do) and never get punished for them. Thats the ultimate truth behind it. You want a *low-skill* meta. A meta that caters to players like you, players who keep making mistakes, wasting their dodges, wasting their defenses, mispositioning, failing to time or setup any of their own skills. You want a meta where the mistakes you keep making dont kill you, and the only way you get killed is when you get outnumbered. A meta where you can just faceroll on your keyboard without putting even the *slightest* thought into your gameplay and still succeed. Sadly for you, seems most players do not want a low-skill meta. Now its up to Anet to fix that.
It's not fact, it's your crappy opinion about skill.
The only point I agree with you is that most players do not want a low-skill meta, neither a clic to win meta.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"viquing.8254" said:
> >
> > In this use case, that's exaclty the same situation as before : you have one bursty spec facing another bursty spec AND one of them has more tools/pressure than the other. <3
>
> No, before the matchup wouldve been far more even. The gap got a lot wider as a result of the diversity killing february patch.
How can the gap get wider on a duel versus two bursty spec if damage were lowered ?
Maybe somethink more about class spec nerf than damage reduction no ?
Btw I have high doubt that you ever faced holo with a power mes prepatch ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > Surprise surprise the rev didn't stay all the time at 90% HP. When he get +1 ing in the second link, he was at 10%. And this this with A WAR.
> I never said they would always stay at 90%? I said they *wouldnt die*. In the 7+ minute fight in MOTA, both players hit 10% a few times, but as you can tell by the way I called it, in 7+ minutes neither died. The only healthpoint that matters is the last one. The point is that in a 1v1, he wouldnt die, and the first video illustrates it beautifully because that fight went on for a while, the rev hasnt even used all his cooldowns, and it was clear there is no way in sight.
>
Hmm seems like a turn back for you.
If people go to 10% life, we aren't in a tank meta, or you never played a real tank meta.
> > In this second vid, even without the +1, the dev still die. No you were not good enough to understand than fighting is more than just burst and rotate.
>
> Nope, he wouldnt. As I said, he was back up to 43% with healing incoming, his next defensive cooldowns being close to up, and the warriors offensive cooldowns being pretty depleted. Without the +1, the fight wouldve gone on for another *agonising* 7 minutes without a death. And no, you were not good enough to understand that the old meta was not *at all* "burst and rotate". If anything that describes the current meta more, where you outnumber, burst down, then move on to outnumber more. Because thats the only way you kill players.
Nop currently you have to take time to make the opponent :
1) reach low life.
2) +1 ing if you can't finish him.
Whereas before you just run with 3 +1 destroying everything in 20 sec or make people left points at view.
> > A low skill meta where player just have to concentrate 10 sec every 30 sec mean nothing for me. But I understand that some people have concentration issue and fight with a higher duration time look kinda hard for them. So they just want an easy game where they can just burst and walk away.
>
> Yes, we get it. You dont understand that the old meta was a high-skill meta, and the current meta is a super low-skill meta. You dont understand that the old meta wasnt "concentrate 10 seconds every 30 seconds", but long fights where mistakes are lethal. You dont understand that a 30 second fight where you have to think and time the entire time is far more skillful than a 7 minute fight where you turn off your brain, and just spam everything off cooldown while waiting for one of your teammates to outnumber you so you can kill the enemy.
There wasn't "long fight" there were people kitting 5 m around point because the damage were too high.
If you think that Ajaxx in the vid "just spam everything off cooldown" to get the rev 10%hp, you will probably never progress in PvP. You should try WvW where you can get high spike thanks to gear&foods.
> I understand you have trouble with not making major mistakes which got you killed in the previous high-skill meta. So you just want an easy game where you can faceroll the keyboard, constantly make grave mistakes, and never die.
I understand you don't have trouble playing thief in the last low-skill meta considering the ladder pre-patch. so you just want your easy kill back and feel strong.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Arken.3725" said:
> > > > I mean, he ain't wrong. Name another class that can destroy your health in an instant like that? I don't even think two thieves could do it as quickly and to the same degree. Except maybe a stealthed-up holomancer with nades. That's not to say it's anymore fair.
> > >
> > > 2 thieves couldnt, but thief is also just the lowest damage class by a pretty wide margin. Otherwise? 2 Guardians, 2 Engineers (doesnt even have to be Holo), 2 Rangers, 2 Warriors, 2 Eles, 2 Mesmers and 2 Reapers absolutely could. So uh, yeah, basically everyone other than thief can.
> > Lol ?
> > It just confirm what I'm thinking when reading your no clue debate on pre partch state that you just want to freekill people on thief calling it skill, in regards to your average post in this forum.
>
> Except despite your attempts to deflect from your own lack of knowledge, I dont actually *play* thief, and havent in months. I play engineer. Besides, pre-patch 2 thieves would only barely have been able to kill the necro alone either, so its not like it gets better.
>
> > But wait, we are in a tank meta with every professions unkillable lmao. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> >
>
> Your memory cant be this bad. Remember what the caveat was? _**UNLESS THEYRE OUTNUMBERED**_. Here we have a 1v2. The necro is outnumbered. if youre outnumbered, you get killed. Now imagine it was only one rev, do you think the Necro wouldve died? Spoiler: Nope.
>
And outnumbered situation never happen on a 5v5 capture point map OFC.
In this particular video and looking at protagonist reaction time, 1 rev should be enough to kill the nec in few sec sadly.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"anjo.6143" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"anjo.6143" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > Youre joking right? We already have the overall damage being so low that no one dies without being outnumbered, and the sidenoder meta is knocking back to decap, and you want to *nerf* damage further? What a joke.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Holo has low dmg ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > > > > > No one dies to Holo ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wanna buy this game, where do I find it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Youre playing it, its called GW2. Why do you think the sidenoder meta is knockbacks?
> > > >
> > > > If u are that holo, you r bad, not the class. The build is the most OP atm.
> > >
> > > Its strong, but its strong because its unkillable and can knock people off of the point to decap. And when outnumbering it kills faster. But in a 1v1, no half-decent player should *ever* be downed by a Holo.
> >
> > Play power mesmer/mirage then show me how you don't die to a holo please, I want to learn.
>
> Sadly the gap between meta and non-meta builds is too wide, so Im not sure if thats going to be doable. But thats the result of lowering diversity and widening the gap, yknow?
In this use case, that's exaclty the same situation as before : you have one bursty spec facing another bursty spec AND one of them has more tools/pressure than the other. <3
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > Again Mota is a particular setup for coordinated. Plus considering there isn't every day, they obviously did want to take risks on squishy specs.
> > > > >
> > > > > You see that exact same set up in regular 5v5. The only advantage you gain from being coordinated is macro-related, but these builds get *stronger* against worse macro since, remember, you can only die if outnumbered. Also, if the "squishy" builds are as good or better, they would be played. We saw tournaments before, all the way up to worlds. There was no preference for tankier builds. If theyre good, squishy builds arent a risk. They picked the tanky builds because those are the meta.
> > > > >
> > > > > > In regular 5v5, even mAt it's not that tanky at all.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is exactly as tanky. We saw MaTs, it was the exact same thing. Because as I said, the "tanky" builds arent tanky because they play a lot of damage reduction. They are tanky because damage is so pathetically low that having any sustain means youre practically unkillable. So what benefit would you have from playing a build without sustain? You wont be able to kill them obviously, the damage isnt there. However, they will just knock you off the point and decap. Or maybe they could even kill you if youre really "squishy".
> > > >
> > > > If damage is low I shouldn(t get hit from 4 to 5k versus many class, the ability to die in 4 hit feel it's more about sustain on particular class than the opposite.
> > >
> > > 4-5k for their strongest attack is *very* little. And sadly thats what it is. 4-5k from their strongest attack. Much less from the rest. The DPS is simply not there to kill anyone. As I said, thats why the sidenoder meta is knockback, even on classes that run little to *no* damage reduction.
> > >
> > > > Mean I just meet a grenade holo, saying he didn't does damage is pretty inacurrate.
> > >
> > > Grenade Holo is probably the highest end damage build left. It still doesnt do enough damage. You saw Obindo fight explosive holo a few times. Despite his build having no damage reduction, he didnt even come *close* to dying. If you have literally any sustain, you dont die, not even to explosive holo. I mean, not surprising. 6k grenade barrage and then about 2k DPS, yeah that doesnt kill *anyone*. And thats the high end.
> >
> > Or you can open any stream, or facing any decent players and see that Holo isn't the only class with damage AND players die.
> > Mean even on dead class like warrior :
Ajaxx manage to kill a rev with little assist.>
> You need to time videos better. The part where he kills a Rev happens about 10-20 seconds later. And surprise, surprise. Its only after he outnumbers the rev with the help of a thief that he can kill the rev, while the entire part prior to that was a dead draw. Its funny how you have the uncanny ability to find videos that *disprove your own point*.
Surprise surprise the rev didn't stay all the time at 90% HP. When he get +1 ing in the second link, he was at 10%. And this this with A WAR.
> > Here is another example of nice fight :
> > So players didn't one shot each other, and while fighting he put the rev on 10% on his own. That's the kind of game I want to see, not a spam fiest trolll meta with people one shotting each other which greatly benefit to most mobile class.
>
> And the rev immediately went back to 43%, and only died when, surprise surprise, he got outnumbered. Without that, the fight wouldve continued without a death for another 7 minutes. And we get it. You have 0 knowledge or understanding of the old meta. You were not good enough to understand that it wasnt a "one shot meta", and that it was a skill-ful timing based meta while *the current one* is a spam fest troll meta.
In this second vid, even without the +1, the dev still die. No you were not good enough to understand than fighting is more than just burst and rotate.
> > Btw looking at yours posts history, you just want to do easy kills on thief, this explain much.
>
> Hardly. I havent played thief in ages. I do want thief to be a good duelist again, but even then it wouldnt be easy. But sure, if we go ad hominem, looking at everything you have written, you just want a skill-less meta because you keep making major mistakes and cant handle being actually punished for them. A high-skill meta was just too much for you.
A low skill meta where player just have to concentrate 10 sec every 30 sec mean nothing for me. But I understand that some people have concentration issue and fight with a higher duration time look kinda hard for them. So they just want an easy game where they can just burst and walk away.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > Again Mota is a particular setup for coordinated. Plus considering there isn't every day, they obviously did want to take risks on squishy specs.
> > >
> > > You see that exact same set up in regular 5v5. The only advantage you gain from being coordinated is macro-related, but these builds get *stronger* against worse macro since, remember, you can only die if outnumbered. Also, if the "squishy" builds are as good or better, they would be played. We saw tournaments before, all the way up to worlds. There was no preference for tankier builds. If theyre good, squishy builds arent a risk. They picked the tanky builds because those are the meta.
> > >
> > > > In regular 5v5, even mAt it's not that tanky at all.
> > >
> > > It is exactly as tanky. We saw MaTs, it was the exact same thing. Because as I said, the "tanky" builds arent tanky because they play a lot of damage reduction. They are tanky because damage is so pathetically low that having any sustain means youre practically unkillable. So what benefit would you have from playing a build without sustain? You wont be able to kill them obviously, the damage isnt there. However, they will just knock you off the point and decap. Or maybe they could even kill you if youre really "squishy".
> >
> > If damage is low I shouldn(t get hit from 4 to 5k versus many class, the ability to die in 4 hit feel it's more about sustain on particular class than the opposite.
>
> 4-5k for their strongest attack is *very* little. And sadly thats what it is. 4-5k from their strongest attack. Much less from the rest. The DPS is simply not there to kill anyone. As I said, thats why the sidenoder meta is knockback, even on classes that run little to *no* damage reduction.
>
> > Mean I just meet a grenade holo, saying he didn't does damage is pretty inacurrate.
>
> Grenade Holo is probably the highest end damage build left. It still doesnt do enough damage. You saw Obindo fight explosive holo a few times. Despite his build having no damage reduction, he didnt even come *close* to dying. If you have literally any sustain, you dont die, not even to explosive holo. I mean, not surprising. 6k grenade barrage and then about 2k DPS, yeah that doesnt kill *anyone*. And thats the high end.
Or you can open any stream, or facing any decent players and see that Holo isn't the only class with damage AND players die.
Mean even on dead class like warrior :
Ajaxx manage to kill a rev with little assist.Here is another example of nice fight :
So players didn't one shot each other, and while fighting he put the rev on 10% on his own. That's the kind of game I want to see, not a spam fiest trolll meta with people one shotting each other which greatly benefit to most mobile class.
Btw looking at yours posts history, you just want to do easy kills on thief, this explain much.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"anjo.6143" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"anjo.6143" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > Youre joking right? We already have the overall damage being so low that no one dies without being outnumbered, and the sidenoder meta is knocking back to decap, and you want to *nerf* damage further? What a joke.
> > > >
> > > > Holo has low dmg ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > > > No one dies to Holo ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> > > >
> > > > I wanna buy this game, where do I find it?
> > >
> > > Youre playing it, its called GW2. Why do you think the sidenoder meta is knockbacks?
> >
> > If u are that holo, you r bad, not the class. The build is the most OP atm.
>
> Its strong, but its strong because its unkillable and can knock people off of the point to decap. And when outnumbering it kills faster. But in a 1v1, no half-decent player should *ever* be downed by a Holo.
Play power mesmer/mirage then show me how you don't die to a holo please, I want to learn.
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What is the real list of OPness right now : mesmers bots.
And thanks to them we can say that even with nerfs, mesmers are still played (20% player, 80% bots.).
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Arken.3725" said:
> > I mean, he ain't wrong. Name another class that can destroy your health in an instant like that? I don't even think two thieves could do it as quickly and to the same degree. Except maybe a stealthed-up holomancer with nades. That's not to say it's anymore fair.
>
> 2 thieves couldnt, but thief is also just the lowest damage class by a pretty wide margin. Otherwise? 2 Guardians, 2 Engineers (doesnt even have to be Holo), 2 Rangers, 2 Warriors, 2 Eles, 2 Mesmers and 2 Reapers absolutely could. So uh, yeah, basically everyone other than thief can.
Lol ?
It just confirm what I'm thinking when reading your no clue debate on pre partch state that you just want to freekill people on thief calling it skill, in regards to your average post in this forum.
But wait, we are in a tank meta with every professions unkillable lmao. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Now to add something to the discussion :
>...Revs are using can be very easily stopped with a single CC...
In this vid yeah, usually no because of blind application.
And you can't counter pressure because of weakness application unless you play condi.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > Again Mota is a particular setup for coordinated. Plus considering there isn't every day, they obviously did want to take risks on squishy specs.
>
> You see that exact same set up in regular 5v5. The only advantage you gain from being coordinated is macro-related, but these builds get *stronger* against worse macro since, remember, you can only die if outnumbered. Also, if the "squishy" builds are as good or better, they would be played. We saw tournaments before, all the way up to worlds. There was no preference for tankier builds. If theyre good, squishy builds arent a risk. They picked the tanky builds because those are the meta.
>
> > In regular 5v5, even mAt it's not that tanky at all.
>
> It is exactly as tanky. We saw MaTs, it was the exact same thing. Because as I said, the "tanky" builds arent tanky because they play a lot of damage reduction. They are tanky because damage is so pathetically low that having any sustain means youre practically unkillable. So what benefit would you have from playing a build without sustain? You wont be able to kill them obviously, the damage isnt there. However, they will just knock you off the point and decap. Or maybe they could even kill you if youre really "squishy".
If damage is low I shouldn(t get hit from 4 to 5k versus many class, the ability to die in 4 hit feel it's more about sustain on particular class than the opposite.
Mean I just meet a grenade holo, saying he didn't does damage is pretty inacurrate.
-
Again Mota is a particular setup for coordinated. Plus considering there isn't every day, they obviously did want to take risks on squishy specs.
In regular 5v5, even mAt it's not that tanky at all (apart for the few class that need tweaks.).
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>So no, its not " a few classes that need tweaks", its every one.
Yeah let's tweak mesmer and warrior for exemple.
There is ~4 class to tweak that's not even half of the 9.
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Current meta : https://ibb.co/LktfPxx respectively backstab and shadow shot versus old meta link in the vid above.
Dunno if you think we are in a tank meta because few class need tweak start playing other class, not everyone has perma protection or damage mitigation.
So keep "your" truth for yourself please.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > Yeah and you are objectivity's incarnation.
> > >
> > > Compared to you? Certainly.
> > Throw me more ego please I eat it every breakfast.
>
> "Ego". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
It mean : I'm presuaded to know everything and I'm way better, stronger and anything than other.
> "You completely refuted my argument and made it clear how utterly *wrong* I was and I dont have any response, but I cant admit that I was wrong. I know, Ill try to deflect with an ad hominem that has nothing to do with anything". No, I did play burst builds. Unlike you, I know none of them ever used auto proc lifesaving traits. As I said, most of them had been phased out or dropped entirely. Engineer was legitimately the only majorly played class using them.
Thieves had more than 1 build, other class had either side effects from AI, either really easy to break burst with BS multiple effects.
> Ok, I see you dont. No, it wasnt pre-patch, because it being pre-patch does not mean that the contradiction goes away. The truth is that you clearly havent got the *faintest* clue about the pre-patch meta, or anything related to it. What youre thinking of is an imaginary world that only exists inside your head. An imaginary world where the cognitive dissonance doesnt bother you, where the traits no one used were actually *totally* super common, where the gap between meta and non-meta builds was *totally* wide and not super narrow, where diversity was *totally* not way higher than it is right now. Im sorry, but reality doesnt care about your imaginary world.
Yeah another superiority complex as you don't like ego, continue, continue.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > Yeah and you are objectivity's incarnation.
>
> Compared to you? Certainly.
Throw me more ego please I eat it every breakfast.
> > If old meta was so good then didn't even need to do a rework.
>
> Correct. It didnt. I hope you didnt make the assumption "they changed it, so that must mean that change was neccessary", because I could write a book about all the unneccessary changes all kinds of online games have made just in the past decade alone. "Change for the sake of change" is the name of the game.
Yeah a meta with 30% thieves, 20% rev, some nec and few other is totally a good meta.
> > Even if I'm a minority, you, like other people posting here can't speak for the community because there is part of this community who disagre with the game you ty to impose to everyone.
>
> There will always be a part of the community that disagrees. The question is, are they the majority, or the minority? You cant ever please everyone. So instead your goal should be to please as many people as possible. Evidently these patches failed to accomplish it, and instead rather did the opposite.
You can try to make it an evidence as long as you want you will never have real activity statisti, on speculation that you can manipulate trying to be right.
> > About old meta if you even played risky build during this time, give proof if you have time because I really start doubting about your activity during this time, (mean at least I appear on top stream game for my part), you should notice than few class had life saving autoproc in their build. Strangely there were overepresented. But prepatch representation was probably fine for you.
>
> First of all, most classes have a "life saving autoproc" in their traitlines. Second of all, they werent neccessary. I mean hell, lets take a look, shall we? When it comes to the most common classes pre-patch, it was primarily thief (1 in every team. Shortbow 5 is overpowered), Weaver (perhaps surprisingly to some), Firebrand, Herald, Spellbreaker, Holosmith, Ranger and Mirage.
>
> Now then, how many of them used "life saving autoprocs"? Well, thief technically had one, but its in the acrobatics traitline. No thief used the acrobatics traitline. It wasnt used. Well, what about Weaver? Had one in Earth, technically. It was not used. Firebrand? Technically valorous defense, but its pretty bad, and valor was usually not used. Herald? Hasnt had such a trait since 2018. Spellbreaker? Has such a trait in the defense traitline. People stopped using the defense traitline. Holosmith? Actually has and uses Emergency Elixir E. Its not as good as some of the others, but it counts. Ranger? Had 2, 1 in Marksmanship, 1 in Soulbeast. Neither was used. And finally, Mirage. Had Desperate Decoy, not used.
You certainly never played burst build, thanks for the hint.
> So, guess what? Turns out the builds with "life saving autoprocs" in them were not just not overrepresented, they were *underrepresented*. Only one build used one, and it was not even one of the top 5 most common builds. All the other ones didnt use them. And yet they didnt just die. Guess why? Because you needed to make a mistake to get hit hard.
>
> > Seems skill = gutting 40% life per skill while having easy life safer for some people.
>
> Do you even read what you write? Those 2 statements *contradict each other*. Either you can just do a ton of damage and the enemy cant do anything, or youre safe. Both cant be true at the same time. But thats because youre wrong entirely. The truth is, some skills did hit hard, but they were telegraphed and avoidable. All builds were "safe" in the sense that if you didnt make mistakes, you didnt take much damage.
It was prepatch this is why this mess had to go out.
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Yeah and you are objectivity's incarnation.
If old meta was so good then didn't even need to do a rework.
Even if I'm a minority, you, like other people posting here can't speak for the community because there is part of this community who disagre with the game you ty to impose to everyone.
About old meta if you even played risky build during this time, give proof if you have time because I really start doubting about your activity during this time, (mean at least I appear on top stream game for my part), you should notice than few class had life saving autoproc in their build. Strangely there were overepresented. But prepatch representation was probably fine for you.
Seems skill = gutting 40% life per skill while having easy life safer for some people.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > It wasn't more skilled, mean you just have to concentrate during the 10 sec high pressure then moving while now you stay in fight way longer. Such skill : count 2 evade while pressuring, burst, switch to next target, wow I feel so strong kill people in chain. I play to fight not to walk on a map.
>
> It was *considerably* more skilled. Because mistakes mattered. And longer fights arent more skillful fights (quite the opposite, usually). Right now, mistakes dont matter. You dont die even if you screw up. All you do now is faceroll all your skills while waiting for your side to outnumber their side to be able to actually kill them.
Right now I kill people even on a subpar class.
> Hell we already established that you were *completely*, 100%, without any doubt wrong about the previous meta, and that everything you used to describe it couldnt be further from the truth. Once again, the same is true here.
Yeah continue dreaming about your lovely supposed skilled meta who will probably never come back if you want. It didn't change anything for me.
> > You consider having carried high pressure as skill, me not. And some class were given passive and easy tools to forgive mistake while other no. Let me show how you face sind with a power mesmer just for the laugh please.
>
> I consider having to actually play around the enemy, having to time your skill and having your mistakes be punished high skill. You consider being able to make mistakes ad infinitum without being punished, facerolling your keyboard and not timing anything while just waiting to outnumber them high skill. I wonder which one is closer to the truth.
I consider having MU where meta build are highly stronger than others as bad yeah, particulary when most of the output was easy to get.
> Back then? I wouldve died. Because mistakes mattered. And I would make considerably more mistakes. Now? Id have a *much* better shot, because its not like he can really kill me after a single mistake. I can keep messing up and I will still be fine. Ill probably still lose, but whereas before the patch I would lose 100/100 games, this patch Id go as far as to dare say I would win 20/100 games. Maybe even more.
>
> > 43% is not 20%/80% difference.
>
> A majority is a majority.
> > People going in forum are mainly thoses unhappy with the current meta, other just play the game and enjoy it. It certainly not 30% overall.
>
> Incorrect. People who use forums, or subreddits, are predominantly people who have already been using them for a long time. And indeed, those with a complaint about the meta are the ones who have used the forums the most before. Combine that, and you in fact get the fact that the people using the forum are the ones who were unhappy with the *previous* meta, or previous metas. People who were happy before but unhappy now might enter, but since most of them werent on the forums before, they wont be as many. It might not be exactly 30%, but it is *100%* lower than the 43% here. 30% seems like a safe bet, might be even lower.
Forum people are ALWAYS mostly whiners.
Mean even you pre patch post some whine posts.
> > In game top leaderboard show player who didn't play for a long time who come back yeah. But you see what you want to see.
> >
>
> Not really. Most of those players you think "didnt play for a long time" actually were playing the whole time. You just never saw them before because a lot of the players who took up leaderboard spots that are now empty (and allowed them to move upwards) left.
Once you start to be in LB, you start to know people. Again don' t talk avout something you didn't know.
> @"ZeteCommander.4937" said:
> > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > It wasn't more skilled, mean you just have to concentrate during the 10 sec high pressure then moving while now you stay in fight way longer. Such skill : count 2 evade while pressuring, burst, switch to next target, wow I feel so strong kill people in chain. I play to fight not to walk on a map.
> > You consider having carried high pressure as skill, me not. And some class were given passive and easy tools to forgive mistake while other no. Let me show how you face sind with a power mesmer just for the laugh please.
> > 43% is not 20%/80% difference.
> > People going in forum are mainly thoses unhappy with the current meta, other just play the game and enjoy it. It certainly not 30% overall.
> > In game top leaderboard show player who didn't play for a long time who come back yeah. But you see what you want to see.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Maybe it's a coincidence that fewer people are willing to do video and live ?
> The current version is to please new players, low skill floors, slow battle pace, delete the builds complained by new players, such as mirage, and only keep the most brainless builds
Yeah it's certainly less thrilling to stream something where you didn't chain kills because you play something who had forgiven tools while splitting half life bar in few seconds.
Note that they always have to do some tweaks I never deny that.
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It wasn't more skilled, mean you just have to concentrate during the 10 sec high pressure then moving while now you stay in fight way longer. Such skill : count 2 evade while pressuring, burst, switch to next target, wow I feel so strong kill people in chain. I play to fight not to walk on a map.
You consider having carried high pressure as skill, me not. And some class were given passive and easy tools to forgive mistake while other no. Let me show how you face sind with a power mesmer just for the laugh please.
43% is not 20%/80% difference.
People going in forum are mainly thoses unhappy with the current meta, other just play the game and enjoy it. It certainly not 30% overall.
In game top leaderboard show player who didn't play for a long time who come back yeah. But you see what you want to see.
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It was a fucking one shot high pressured meta who shutdown diversity and made even the best player get pressured by random aoe like proven in the vid where sind take sometimes 75% HP while not even being targeted.
Now if you like it, glad you but It wasn't the case for me, neither for the 43 % people vote in this thread, plus if you take in account that mainly unhappy people complain in forum, this ratio is probably even higher overall in game.
The real "was it better before or now" should be anet stats about players activity which will probably never be communicated to us.
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Mean @"UNOwen.7132" :
"Haha you lie, give me prove"
Prove given.
"Haha it's a prove that is against you, we didn't see a thief engaging for 14k+".
Just let people watch the vid, just because I don't want to discuss about evidence anymore. Mean it surely hurt to be wrong but you know sometimes you better not persist in unknlodege than trying to hand up to the tree.
Same for the look at how people spend all game low life and the moment they aren't low life is when they aren't in fight or play the few class that could stay 20 sec before retreat.
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> Says the guy who smuggly presented a video thinking it proves his point, when in truth is completely *disproves* his point. So please, go play PvP in your magical off-meta world instead of posting nonsense about how the old meta was totally so bad and this new meta (which you never see) is totally great and not hot garbage.
Lol?
Continues to live in denial and stop trying to teach non-sense to other player.
I didn't even answer to your last answer on how obindo got 50% hp before being +1ing, just buy a pair of glasses.
Can also M. genius tell us where did the might come from ?
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> Im lucky the video that never existed got removed? Yeah, right. Here is the fun thing: I can prove, with ease, that he didnt. Or rather, not without you having a ton of vulnerability *and* him having a ton of might stacks. Even on a light armour class with 0 toughness, you would not even come close to 13k. Remember, Backstab only got nerfed by 25%, and it hits for 4-5k at most nowadays. So how do you think 25% extra damage would up that by 300%?
Yeah in case you didn't know vids get removed on twitch after a certain period of time.
Just to make you feel bad I just found the video I was talking about on his youtube channel, **enjoy your no-clue about PvP** and the 14k backstab :
17:38
[
)Ho and you can even see how everyone spend his life low life in the funny old meta, just look at misha life bar.
I feel bad for your, like really. Again go play PvP instead of posting non-sense here please.
Do You Find The Game More Fun To Play Now Or Before Revamp
in Player vs. Player
Posted
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > Which is not the case, I don't see a rev coming back from 10% to 100% HP in 2 sec apart if player don't how to stop attacking during infuse light.
> > Then putting rev apart because I already state that he need some tweak, how many other class are able to come from 10% to full health in seconds huh ?
>
> It absolutely is the case. They dont need to return to 100%, you spent cooldowns to kill them, your damage is lower. Theyll gradually go back up. Again, we literally saw him go back up to 43% instantly while also continously regenerating health in the video. And uh, full health, no, but enough to negate your damage and be unkillable? All of them. Damage is low, healing is not. Every class can do it. Thats not what sets Rev or Holo or Ranger apart. The fact that they have easily accessible and fast *knockbacks* is.
Show me how you come back to 10% from 100% on mesmer while staying in fight please. Apart the tank signet build who has basically 0 output, the better you can get is 6k5 every 30 seconds.
So
1) No, every class couldn't do it.
2) You are just writting that few class are apart because of identificated reasons, another stepback, nice, we progress.
> > Sure walking in a map instead of fighting is a way more efficient way to spend time. If you like running, WvW is one more time the best mode for you.
>
> Ok, I will repeat myself one last time. Despite your obsessive insistence on this point, its blatantly 100% false. Before the patch, you spent way more time fighting, than walking, because fighting actually lead to someone lose. If anything, its *now* where you spend more time walking instead of fighting. Because as I said, fighting for 7 minutes without anyone dying isnt exactly effective. So someone gets your enemy outnumbered, you kill them, then you move and outnumber someone else and kill them. Macro over micro.
You have proves on video that it wasn't the case, dunno if you are blind or not. Class who could stay more in point than other were war, maybe FB and that's all.
If you are fighting 7 min you need to :
1) switch to more pressure gear and traits.
2) learn to time your skills.
> Were talking about meta, arent we? That being said, even for those its the case. I dont know if you noticed, but Holo only runs *2* actual defensive traits. And theyre both on long cooldown and dont give him that much defense. Same with Power Rev. And with Ranger. These classes arent unkillable because they spec deep into defense, theyre unkillable because damage is so pathetically low that having *any* sustain means youre unkillable.
Again, don't base your meta on a mota were players didn't want to take risks because they just want to win.
Stop playing tank if you think damage is low, go play zerk ranger or power mes then come back saying you and opponents are unkillable.
> > Apart few build THAT ARE BUILD that are problematics, you must only meet meta tank my poor, hopefully I'm always meeting diversity in my game because your game look so depressing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>
> Ok, let me explain it so simple that even *you* can understand it. Rev, Holo, Ranger, theyre not unique, theyre not special in their survivability. Every meta class can survive as well as they can. Nerf those 3, and all you get is for some kind of guardian, some kind of necro and some kind of Ele to take their place. Or even a Warrior. You will have to keep nerfing and nerfing healing into the ground to allow people to finally die in fair fights, and at that point you have taken the already low-skill state of PvP and run it into the ground. Its not a solution. It just makes the problem worse.
>
> But importantly, what makes Rev Holo and Ranger special is that they have easily accessible knockbacks, allowing you to decap when fighting an enemy. Because youre not going to be killing anyone on your own.
Ok, let me explain it with another proove because *you* can understand it, let's took yesterday Mighty stream randomly :
So : ~17 kills in 10 min. Wow such a tank meta where nobody die.
Even if you look the At final at the end, they live only thanks to team assist and synergy. And even with this, there is still 9 kills in a 10 min game, while worms are playing one of the tankiest comp currently.
Ho surprise surprise, there is multiple same class.
> > Nop, I don't meet 2 thieves + 1 rev running around killing everything like it was the case pre-patch.
>
> Ignoring that that wasnt the case pre-patch, yeah you do see that, that was literally the MOTA meta, people rotating together outnumbering and killing. While the Revs were fighting somewhere for 7 minutes without anyone dying.
Dunno if playing the +1ing prepatch make you unable to see what was running but it was the case.
Rev just go from only +1ing to gain point holding ability.
> > This :
> > Highlight me the time where they were fighting on point please, I fail to see it. Sure they went on point, they take atomic damage and they come back fighting around. Dunno where you live but we haven't the same minutes.
>
> Ah, a cherry-picked video featuring 2 teams that both try to outrotate and outnumber everywhere. Of course, if you outnumber someone, they have to run away. But spoiler: its no different from right now. Once again, watch the MOTA.
Lol a cherry-picked, guye, I just open sind vis and took the first I see 4 month ago.
> Oh but just to break your point apart further, lets take a look at something slightly more high profile than the AT, mmh? [This](
Surprise surprise, 2 thieves in each team + 1 rev on blue team. Who is linking counter-argument vid now ?
Wait I see is :
- Misha perma low life.
- Sind just go on point 10 sec before getting to 25% life.
- They aren't fighting on mid point if they aren't outnumbering, even considering the size of the point because of pressure. Even when there is nobody in they hesitate to go into to cap because of the potential pressure.
It must be a joke that you link that, 4 players playing stealth and running spiking while other just gravitate around trying to survive. Damages came from nowhere, an aoe can make you half life out.
You know what, let make a 5v5 thief vs thief game so you can f ully enjoy your vision of skill.
> > Wait did you just write that timing is more important than rollface ? And with only rollface you didn't do anything ?
>
> Ah, the "kitten you have a point I cannot respond to, so I try to strawman in a desperate attempt to save face" method. Lets cut it apart. No, I didnt write that. Because here is the thing: as I explained, his mistakes didnt matter. And Ajaxx didnt "time" anything. And if no +1 came, the Rev wouldve survived and kept fighting. The truth is that with just facerolling, he was exactly as effective as Ajaxx was, which is to say, they both failed to kill the other one without help.
Wow, Ajaxx didn't time anything, let wait to other readers to watch that.
> > Hint : it's the definition of skill.
>
> Yeah, if there is a difference, its the definition of skill. Sadly despite your pathetic attempt to smokescreen, we can all clearly see that there wasnt a difference. Hence why its a super-low skill meta right now.
Or just went from carrying build to build where you have to play so it hurt.
> > The difference is that before with rollface you could put high pressure with no efforts.
>
> No. The difference is that before when you facerolled, made mistakes, didnt time anything and overall played terribly, you instantly died, your opponent instantly won the fight, and got the point, and pushed towards the win. Now when you faceroll, make mistakes, dont time anything and overall play terribly, the opponent still cant kill you without +1ing, and as a result the games outcome doesnt change anything. Before you needed effort to win. Now you can just faceroll. *That* is the difference.
That's why we saw this much diversity....
> > Mate, for the moment I link 2 to 3 times more prooves than you, about my ad hominem, It's not for you but for readers just to make them look at your post history just to get an idea of the hominem.
>
> That sentence didnt make sense. And just to explain it to you, an ad hominem isnt an argument. Its the absence of an argument. When you resort to attacking the other persons character instead of their argument, you basically shout to the world "Im wrong but Im too much of a coward to admit it". So, thanks for admitting it indirectly, I suppose.
Can't hope much from someone promoting carrying builds. Thznks for the smile about the absence of arguments when most of my posts had more than yours.
> No, its a fact. We saw the rev above. We saw him making mistakes and, in that specific context, playing terribly. And we saw that it had no outcome on the game result. Without the Warriors team outrotating (or "walking" as you like to call it) he would never have died and the fight was an endless dead-draw. We see that the meta is *objectively* super-low skill, and that the meta beforehand was *objectively* high-skill. And from what you wrote about the previous meta (And how laughable it was), we know that you are like this Rev. Constantly making mistakes. And that the previous meta where those mistakes got punished and you found yourself walking around at low-health after being punished. Thats why you didnt like the old meta. It was too high-skill for you.
The only who see that are thoses who were the most carried by build prepatch.
> > The only point I agree with you is that most players do not want a low-skill meta, neither a clic to win meta.
> >
>
> Yeah except we didnt have a "click to win" meta. We had a "outplay to win" meta. Now we have a "wait for reinforcements to win" meta. Macro, or "walking" as you call it is the only thing that matters.
> But just to hammer the point across one final time. If you facerolled before the patch, and/or made mistakes, you instantly lost. Straight up 0% chance of winning, youre screwed, and your team gets that much closer to losing. *Now* if you faceroll and make constant mistakes, it doesnt matter one bit. You can play as awfully as you want, your enemy wont kill you. All that matters is that your team moves around the map better than the enemy team. As long as they do, you can be far worse of a player than the guy youre scrapping with, you still will win. The current meta is the *textbook definition* of a low-skill meta.
The problem was that versus some builds, if the opponent facerolled, you still take pressure. This is why the ladder look so bad in terms of class representation. And when My grandma can split out 75% of a pro-player by pushing 1 button, there is a problem.
Now that newbies can't do pressure if not timing skills, they all come here to whine that they can't kill anything.