mixxed.5862

> @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> I see one major improvement tho. And that is that the player skill rating should be kept and applied **per profession**. For example: I always play Elementalist and I am silver-3 to gold-2 there. But when I would switch to anything else, I would be an absolute newbie and belong to the underside of the bronze ratings. But the game does not take that in consideration now, and I think it should.

They did a poll on implementing a system like that a long time ago, but it required locking profession swapping once you enter the queue (otherwise it could easily be exploited). In the end it was voted against.

> @"Star.8401" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> >

> > It objectively wasn't.

> >

> >

>

> That's why all the really good PvP players quit ages ago, why the game has lost all entertainment value, why PvP population is seriously in jeopardy compared to how it used to thrive.

>

> Oh wait, you are so wrong.

> Spvp started to go wild when HoT added elite specs and its been a downhill trend/train since then. Balance will never come again. There are too many factors, and this is why Spvp has lost its population growth and its in a downhill trend.

>

I don't think player numbers depend on balance at all. The more hype there is, the higher the numbers. Right now we're the few stuck with an 8 year old game, an MMO that hasn't seen an expansion in over 3 years, a PvP mode where eSports died 5 years ago etc.

Of course it's slowly declining - until there's something new and fun like the next set of elite specializations. But there certainly isn't an exodus happening because you don't like the balance.

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"mixxed.5862" said:

> > > @"Ryan.9387" said:

> > > In case you were sleeping renegade might just got deleted.

> > >

> > > Also speed runes nerfed.

> > >

> > > You should be complaining that minion necro and herald escaped this.

> >

> > Yep, I think you're correct.

> >

> > And minionmanacer just got a small fix to the most obnoxious part of it. I don't think it was enough - but it's a start. So really, a pretty good balance patch overall. Although we're still waiting for a REAL balance update. Well, they're probably spending most of that time on trying to figure out new and innovative ways of making the new set of elite specs even more fundamentally broken than the last one ... So that'll be fun!

> >

> > Also, herald being broken is the state of the game for over 6 years now (although occasionally there's something even more broken!). Best to just accept it as is for our mental health's sake. For the moment I'm happy herald will be more broken than renegade, so we won't see as much of that kitten anymore. Yay!?

>

> Just noticed myself: There is a, well, let's call it a tweak, to power herald in the rune. So it is something, I guess.

Ohh wow, you're right! They nerfed the rune! Them nerfing herald _slightly_, just imagine the possibilities - well, anything is possible now! No, no, that just can't be right ... it must have been an accident.

> @"Ryan.9387" said:

> In case you were sleeping renegade might just got deleted.

>

> Also speed runes nerfed.

>

> You should be complaining that minion necro and herald escaped this.

Yep, I think you're correct.

And minionmanacer just got a small fix to the most obnoxious part of it. I don't think it was enough - but it's a start. So really, a pretty good balance patch overall. Although we're still waiting for a REAL balance update. Well, they're probably spending most of that time on trying to figure out new and innovative ways of making the new set of elite specs even more fundamentally broken than the last one ... So that'll be fun!

Also, herald being broken is the state of the game for over 6 years now (although occasionally there's something even more broken!). Best to just accept it as is for our mental health's sake. For the moment I'm happy herald will be more broken than renegade, so we won't see as much of that shit anymore. Yay!?

> @"Liewec.2896" said:

> what should the future balance direction be? buffs!

> enough of the nerfs, noone gets excited when the bi-yearly balance patch comes around and literally EVERTYTHING has been nerfed.

> (looking at you feb 2020...)

> but a big balance patch that buffs up a ton of underpowered stuff? thats a great patch!

> the best times in this game are theearly days after a big buffing patch when everyone is experimenting with weird builds

That'd be great not gonna lie. But first: Moar nerfs!

Btw I just edited the opening post because honestly re-reading it I didn't myself get what point I was trying to make.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"mixxed.5862" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"mixxed.5862" said:

> > > > > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> > > > > I agree with your 3 major points, A, B, and slightly C.

> > > > > Fun should take priority over balance.

> > > > > Build diversity and experimentation should be encouraged.

> > > > > I think balance changes are good for keeping things sorta fresh, but actual content updates would do more I think. Balance updates usually only reengage interest for about a week(if at all) then its off to some other game. Honestly I think balance patches should be more hands-off than hands-on, and when they do require some hands-on attention, being done in more creative ways that make PvP more enjoyable and don't just shut down a way to play.

> > > > >

> > > > > That being said, I don't think sustain needs or needed big nerfs. Aside from the occasional outlier extreme example, it was perfectly fine when damage was still in the game.

> > > > > The real reason fights drag on forever now isn't because of bunkers have too much sustain, but because both types of damage took a pretty big dive. Toughness, Condi Cleanses, and Vitality all still function exactly the same in a world where damage and condi application is much lower.

> > > > > You could nerf sustain for every class into the dirt, it's not going to change much if damage is still so low.

> > > > > Or if you wanted to be even more unreasonable, you could remove even more sustainy amulets to cover up an inability to balance sustain in this low damage slogfest clown fiesta.

> > > > >

> > > > > I also agree on your ideas on fun design.

> > > > >

> > > > > Unless CMC's philosophy changes, I don't have the same faith.

> > > > > The Feb25th patch was their passion project.

> > > > > They were quoted saying: "Buffs in 2020 OMEGALUL"

> > > > > Unless that changes to: "Buffs in 2021 FeelsGoodMan" then I am terrified. Please hold me MonkaS

> > > >

> > > > I entirely agree, balance patches are not enough to keep things fresh and exciting. We need new content and new elite specs, even if they always mess up a lot.

> > > >

> > > > The way I'm seeing the whole sustain vs damage debate that sparked from the february patch is probably a bit simplistic.

> > > > 1) On the one side of the spectrum you have builds that 100 to 0 you in a second.

> > > > 2) On the other side of the spectrum there are the builds that can handily resustain every burst they eat.

> > > > Both are definitely unfun and need to be purged.

> > > >

> > >

> > > The thing is that while builds *could* 100 to 0 you, they generally didnt, because you could stop them. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute, and thats a good number to aim for. The good burst was balanced out with good defense and reasonable sustain.

> > >

> > > > While we hardly see the former category of builds anymore (which is great), we see too much of the latter. Therefore mostly sustain needs a nerf, although buffing up the damage on some of the CC skills that they made an especially poor job of back in february seems like a good idea.

> > >

> > > We dont actually see *any* of the latter. Because there is no point at all. Why go full bunker if you can be unkillable while playing a glass cannon build? The problem is entirely that damage is too low, to the point where you need very little sustain to negate the damage.

> > >

> > > > Ideally we even find a good balance for the sidenode meta that way : Where every 1v1 on a side node finds a timely victor.

> > >

> > > We had that. It was called the pre-february patch meta. We should just return to it, rather than double down on the current spammer's delight.

> >

> > I think it doesn't matter what you call them. The beefy builds have too much sustain right now, they slow down the game by too much. Even if node scrapper has some decent AoE pressure, it's still very much a defense focused build. And even if shout spellbreaker is support first and foremost, it offers too much self-sustain. Nerf 'em!

> >

>

> Those "beefy" builds are glass cannon builds. The damage just isnt there to even kill glass cannons. There isnt any reason to go for a proper bunker build, you just give up damage for nothing.

>

> > I remember that pre-february the only way to bunker a node was as a water weaver spaming evades. The damage and burst being put out constantly were on another level. I don't want to go back to that. I still want fights to last for a couple of seconds longer - I believe it's more skillful and fun. Just make the fast-paced and skillful team comps the most rewarding to play again, instead of the slow and sustain-heavy ones.

>

> Depends on how you define "bunker". If you mean "able to hold it without *ever* dying no matter what the enemy does", then sure. But thats not healthy in and of itself. Being able to hold a node for a minute though? That was the norm. *Every* sidenoder could do that. As I said, the average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute. That was more skillful and fun. Now, fights dont end at all until outnumbered. You literally cant die, even if youre a glass cannon. That is boring. So boring that in that big tournament a while back, some players started synchronised dancing instead of 1v1ing because of how pointless it was.

Yeah, that's exactly what I understand by bunker builds: Builds that manage to sustain a node indefinitely 1v1. In my opinion such builds will always be unhealthy for conquest. If they also offer decent node pressure to peel for themselves in a 1v2 versus e.g. a squishy thief they become a real problem. They stalemate the game. That's why kalla renegade recently was meta and scrapper is right now. The problem is that once scrapper gets nerfed the next build will rise on the very same premise. I'd suspect it'll be water weaver and druid - although they don't have the same amount of node pressure, so I hope they'll be a little more manageable when outnumbered.

Either way, I believe we're stuck with bunker builds for a while. Even if we hope for a better side node meta already with more balanced builds such as strength spellbreaker, fire weaver, even core ranger and such. For those builds sustain is already close to where it should be, although they could do with a bit of a nerf as well.

**-> Reduce sustain comprehensively.**

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"mixxed.5862" said:

> > > @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> > > I agree with your 3 major points, A, B, and slightly C.

> > > Fun should take priority over balance.

> > > Build diversity and experimentation should be encouraged.

> > > I think balance changes are good for keeping things sorta fresh, but actual content updates would do more I think. Balance updates usually only reengage interest for about a week(if at all) then its off to some other game. Honestly I think balance patches should be more hands-off than hands-on, and when they do require some hands-on attention, being done in more creative ways that make PvP more enjoyable and don't just shut down a way to play.

> > >

> > > That being said, I don't think sustain needs or needed big nerfs. Aside from the occasional outlier extreme example, it was perfectly fine when damage was still in the game.

> > > The real reason fights drag on forever now isn't because of bunkers have too much sustain, but because both types of damage took a pretty big dive. Toughness, Condi Cleanses, and Vitality all still function exactly the same in a world where damage and condi application is much lower.

> > > You could nerf sustain for every class into the dirt, it's not going to change much if damage is still so low.

> > > Or if you wanted to be even more unreasonable, you could remove even more sustainy amulets to cover up an inability to balance sustain in this low damage slogfest clown fiesta.

> > >

> > > I also agree on your ideas on fun design.

> > >

> > > Unless CMC's philosophy changes, I don't have the same faith.

> > > The Feb25th patch was their passion project.

> > > They were quoted saying: "Buffs in 2020 OMEGALUL"

> > > Unless that changes to: "Buffs in 2021 FeelsGoodMan" then I am terrified. Please hold me MonkaS

> >

> > I entirely agree, balance patches are not enough to keep things fresh and exciting. We need new content and new elite specs, even if they always mess up a lot.

> >

> > The way I'm seeing the whole sustain vs damage debate that sparked from the february patch is probably a bit simplistic.

> > 1) On the one side of the spectrum you have builds that 100 to 0 you in a second.

> > 2) On the other side of the spectrum there are the builds that can handily resustain every burst they eat.

> > Both are definitely unfun and need to be purged.

> >

>

> The thing is that while builds *could* 100 to 0 you, they generally didnt, because you could stop them. The average fight lasted 30 seconds to a minute, and thats a good number to aim for. The good burst was balanced out with good defense and reasonable sustain.

>

> > While we hardly see the former category of builds anymore (which is great), we see too much of the latter. Therefore mostly sustain needs a nerf, although buffing up the damage on some of the CC skills that they made an especially poor job of back in february seems like a good idea.

>

> We dont actually see *any* of the latter. Because there is no point at all. Why go full bunker if you can be unkillable while playing a glass cannon build? The problem is entirely that damage is too low, to the point where you need very little sustain to negate the damage.

>

> > Ideally we even find a good balance for the sidenode meta that way : Where every 1v1 on a side node finds a timely victor.

>

> We had that. It was called the pre-february patch meta. We should just return to it, rather than double down on the current spammer's delight.

I think it doesn't matter what you call them. The beefy builds have too much sustain right now, they slow down the game by too much. Even if node scrapper has some decent AoE pressure, it's still very much a defense focused build. And even if shout spellbreaker is support first and foremost, it offers too much self-sustain. Nerf 'em!

I remember that pre-february the only way to bunker a node was as a water weaver spaming evades. The damage and burst being put out constantly were on another level. I don't want to go back to that. I still want fights to last for a couple of seconds longer - I believe it's more skillful and fun. Just make the fast-paced and skillful team comps the most rewarding to play again, instead of the slow and sustain-heavy ones.

> @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> I agree with your 3 major points, A, B, and slightly C.

> Fun should take priority over balance.

> Build diversity and experimentation should be encouraged.

> I think balance changes are good for keeping things sorta fresh, but actual content updates would do more I think. Balance updates usually only reengage interest for about a week(if at all) then its off to some other game. Honestly I think balance patches should be more hands-off than hands-on, and when they do require some hands-on attention, being done in more creative ways that make PvP more enjoyable and don't just shut down a way to play.

>

> That being said, I don't think sustain needs or needed big nerfs. Aside from the occasional outlier extreme example, it was perfectly fine when damage was still in the game.

> The real reason fights drag on forever now isn't because of bunkers have too much sustain, but because both types of damage took a pretty big dive. Toughness, Condi Cleanses, and Vitality all still function exactly the same in a world where damage and condi application is much lower.

> You could nerf sustain for every class into the dirt, it's not going to change much if damage is still so low.

> Or if you wanted to be even more unreasonable, you could remove even more sustainy amulets to cover up an inability to balance sustain in this low damage slogfest clown fiesta.

>

> I also agree on your ideas on fun design.

>

> Unless CMC's philosophy changes, I don't have the same faith.

> The Feb25th patch was their passion project.

> They were quoted saying: "Buffs in 2020 OMEGALUL"

> Unless that changes to: "Buffs in 2021 FeelsGoodMan" then I am terrified. Please hold me MonkaS

I entirely agree, balance patches are not enough to keep things fresh and exciting. We need new content and new elite specs, even if they always mess up a lot.

The way I'm seeing the whole sustain vs damage debate that sparked from the february patch is probably a bit simplistic.

1) On the one side of the spectrum you have builds that 100 to 0 you in a second.

2) On the other side of the spectrum there are the builds that can handily resustain every burst they eat.

Both are definitely unfun and need to be purged.

While we hardly see the former category of builds anymore (which is great), we see too much of the latter. Therefore mostly sustain needs a nerf, although buffing up the damage on some of the CC skills that they made an especially poor job of back in february seems like a good idea.

Ideally we even find a good balance for the sidenode meta that way : Where every 1v1 on a side node finds a timely victor.

**Well, what even is the purpose of balance changes?** At the most basic level it comes down to three things:

A ) Make the game play as fun as possible. (That's really the whole point of it being a game!)

B ) Promote build diversity and try and create an as level playing field as possible by adjusting outliers. (Choice is fun and this is an MMO**RPG**!)

C ) Change for the sake of change. (Keep the game fresh!)

Usually the balance changes we see should serve all of these goals at the same time. Like nerfing nade holo and kala sustain renegade - they were unfun to play against, spammy, one-dimensional and definitely out of whack. However now it becomes increasingly evident that it won't be as easy going forward. If Anet continues to only nerf the obvious outliers - like shortbow shiro renegade - we will shift even further towards a sustain centric meta, which is slow, unrewarding and unfun. Worst case scenario : Bunker meta where noone ever gets a kill. Heck, duels on a side node shouldn't be a boring chore, an indefinite stand-off between bunker builds! It's latest inception : Side node scrapper. What's next? Water weaver? Decap druid? Defense spellbreaker? When conquest is more about getting the kills and the map momentum it's simply more fun.

However, is the right solution setting shortbow shiro renegade as the new standard for offensive builds - as I've seen suggested recently? Hell no, it's a spammy, one-dimensional build and inherently unfun in the very design that makes it superior to others : Just spam your dps off cooldown until you win. Very short cooldowns on your shortbow skills and high damage coefficients offset the need to time any of it against your opponents defenses.

**Adjusting the outliers should not be up for debate. However sustain needs a nerf as well - in a comprehensive manner - so we don't see the next bunker spec pop up yet again.**

As a more general concept:

**What even is "fun design" in PvP?**

* **Interactive gameplay** achieved by having **opportunity for counterplay**. Make every button pressed serve a specific purpose, have solid consequence, opportunity cost and counterplay. Thus make every build play most **skillfully**.

* A **diverse** and **(reasonably) fast-paced** meta.

Stale, slow 1v1's that draw on indefinitely are clearly counter to both of these premises.

We need to finally find a sensible balance with neither power-crept offense (= button mashing ftw!, like pre-february) nor overpowering defense (= stalemate meta, like it is right now). Can't be that hard to achieve, right?

I still hope CMC can make it happen.

**tldr;**

Keep adjusting the outliers and broadly reduce sustain. **Unleash CMC**.

_(edited **heavily** to make my point more clear)_

Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics and numbers so obviously overtuned you'd think they must have realized it by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes and some more rebalancing.

If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

> @"Kuma.1503" said:

> > @"Bast.7253" said:

> > > @"Kuma.1503" said:

> > > > @"WillPaharu.4837" said:

> > > > I got these fire balls flung at me and I was dead in 0.2 seconds. Had full health 0.2 seconds before that. The combination with their stuns and the barrage of hits, it's hard to dodge it all. Please devs, hear the cries of the people. help us. Renegade's are taking over!!!

> > >

> > > Fire balls? You got hit by a citadel bombardment. It's one of the most avoidable skills in the game. It also comes with a hefty energy cost so most won't bother casting it unless their target is in hard CC first. If you're unfortunate enough to tank one, offer up a prayer to the RNG gods and maybe 99% of the missiles will miss you.

> > >

> > > Look for the big orange portal above the renegade's head and you'll know when to dodge. If you get hit by scorchrazer, be prepared to stunbreak or immediatly dodge when the stun ends so you don't tank all of the missles.

> > >

> > > It's a bit of a meme. Costly, hard to land, but huge payoff if it does. Basically the equivalent of a Falcon Punch in Gw2.

> >

> > Seven shot can look like a fireball to someone who doesn’t know what it is.

> >

> > And yes, the damage is really high. Especially considering the conditions the weapon skill also puts out. But the same applies to grenades and 10 other builds because for some reason the devs just like throwing conditions on every weapon.

>

> Shortbow damage **is** very high.

> Shortbow defense is also very **low**

>

> Its the only shortbow in the game with no evade or mobility. It's basically designed as a longbow but with 300 less range. People here often talk about tradeoffs "If you want this you have to sacrifice that". Renegade sacrifices mobility and defense in exchange for damage. It relies on its pressure to deter thieves and Prevs from turning it into mincemeat.

>

> If you want to lower the damage, then as a tradeoff, Renegade should recieve better defensive tools (e.g. replacing the useless SB2 with an evade. Nerf Sevenshot's damage and the turn that into SB2, Put the evade on Sb3 so it has a higher CD and isn't too spammable).

>

> Nerfing their damage with no compensation would delete the spec from PvP... which is what a lot of people want.

>

>

Come on, just look at the damage coefficient and cooldown of Sevenshot compared to every other skill in PvP and try telling us it isn't overtuned with a straight face.

What did I just read? What calculations? I'm a little confused on how you arrive at the conclusion of making points tick slower or invincibility on downed fixing whatever it is that you're critizing.

This thread is ridiculous. Damage prior to the february patch was much higher. Although they need to finally put more effort into balancing out the outliers like explosive entrance nade kit holo or seven-shot etc.

Take off the rose-tinted nostalgia glasses boys!

Pre-february patch PvP was even worse. Most skills would eat half your health and that forced you to run a full set of immunities, some of which even passive. And don't any of you remember bunker weaver and the old condi mirage?

Right now though there's still many issues. Obviously holosmith is ridiculous with the damage spam, easy might stacking and blinds to no end. It's clear the new seven-shot needs a nerf because right now it's on the level of pre-february balance. Clearly guardian symbols need a rework and some of the more tanky builds should get their resustain nerfed to about warrior levels. But I don't think the old balance was any more fun.

There are a couple of aspects about holo that aren't well designed:

1. Obviously grenade kit has too much front-loaded damage. A plain nerf to the damage coefficients is needed. Furthermore grenade barrage should get a unique, distinguishable animation.

2. Holo stacks might too readily. Enhanced capacity storage unit is the biggest offender.

3. The reworked explosives trait line is a little problematic. The damage coefficient on explosive entrance is overtuned, it shouldn't proc on any attack but **only on the first explosion skill** you use - so that skill + explosive entrance can be dodged. The blind duration on flash bang should be 1 second.

> @"Rainbowdash.5314" said:

> So essentially the devs have abandoned pvp?

> If so why're they releasing balance patches for it.. if no work is being done..

> Thats just a big '?' on its own

>

> Thanks for the points all.

> Hopefully one day something positive appears!

> Until then I'll play afk on the point then run about, while talking a lot about the need for change!

Well, the devs haven't abandoned the game mode at all. The PvP dev team certainly is small but they're slowly bringing good changes. No, you've just come to the right place to vent your frustrations. This forum is filled with frustrated players that love complaining about the mode, the devs, the balance, matchmaking etc.

Here's a short list of the changes they did this year: Swiss-style automated tournaments, mini-seasons of 2v2 or 3v3, a very big balance patch for PvP (most skills rebalanced), more regular but small balance adjustments. Later this year we can expect a big tournament, more balance patches that come more frequently, more mini-seasons, we might even see a 10v10(?) map and tournaament. Honestly for this year it's not looking too shabby. I hope the next patch isn't too far away. Condi rev and nade holo need more work.

> @"yinn.2317" said:

> > Still doesn't explain why they would effectively delete a GM trait; it is, now, utterly useless

>

> oh yeah, if there was any part of the nerfs that i dislike it has to be the insane blow to Sand Savant. before the patch hit on the 7th Sand Savant was still kinda useless, but one could argue for the ease of the bigger aoe. now though, there's literally no reason to not run Feed from Corruption.

I think the reasoning is that if they left big shade at 3 targets or more, everyone would run that trait on their dps scourge. While small shade is more fun and big shade is meant to be the choice for support builds. In the future they could give it an increased number of allied targets: Still only hits 2 enemies, but 5 allied targets.

> @"MichaelArchangel.7251" said:

> > @"mixxed.5862" said:

> > > @"MichaelArchangel.7251" said:

> > > > @"mixxed.5862" said:

> > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > > The biggest imbalance problem in WvW are numbers, that being the amount of people one server group can muster at any given time versus their competitors. Servers that are always outnumbered generally can not compete .

> > > > >

> > > > > The only side that a nerf to ACS and siege helps is the side with greater numbers. When AOE spells can be dumped on walls above and do more damage then those people above can do with ACS or cannons then this just more "he who gets there with the mostest" wins.

> > > > >

> > > > > Given alliances seems to be a pipe dream and years off IF it ever occurs, this nerf to siege was ill timed.

> > > > >

> > > > > There really is no point to people on an outnumbered server going out to fight the blob so what they generally did was try and defend what they could with thier smaller numbers while using siege to help equalize. What this nerf does is basically tell the outnumbered servers "There no point in going out and fighting those blobs when outnumbered 2 to 1 and now there no point in trying to defend an objective".

> > > > >

> > > > > Bad move.

> > > >

> > > > Healing overall was reduced by about 33% in the february patch. This change was meant to bring siege back in line with that. In my opinion it was necessary.

> > >

> > > lol.... Funny. I see zergs shrugging off siege like they're nerf darts all the time.

> > >

> >

> > Well, you're not supposed to defend an objective with just 5 people sitting on arrow carts hitting 111111. Arrow carts are still a very welcome boon to any defending team. That's the correct balance.

>

> Defending an objective should be easier than capturing it. That's... part of the defensive advantage. We were taught that you generally needed 3 people for each defender if assaulting a position in the military. More if it's a hardened target. Oh... and the defenders typically will stay behind their walls and butcher attackers. Sorties are generally used only to break sieges to allow supplies through.

>

> Or... we could just say f**k WvW as a battleground and just scrap the whole idea and do arena only.

Defending already is much easier. GW2 is a game first and foremost. If you needed 3 times the numbers to do anything on the map it wouldn't be any good.

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> I don’t mind scourge getting dethroned here..but let’s be realistic, they were they only things holding back a REAL tank Meta

>

> You though the tank meta was bad for the past few months? Oh...you are in for a big surprise.

>

> Welcome to the Boon meta.

No, I don't think so. With spellbreakers bringing bubble and boon strips there's no way we're going back to a tank meta. Even if necro was out of the game (it isn't).

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > @"aaron.7850" said:

> > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > @"aaron.7850" said:

> > > > We all should have guessed the God-Tier damage class in wvw would complain at the sight of the tiniest nerf.

> > > >

> > > > Give them time to adjust to the "balanced" realm of wvw, its a new place for them.

> > >

> > > again, scourge needed nerfs. they didn't need 60% nerfs for damage and support across the board lol

> >

> > 60% damage nerf and yet they will still do more damage than mesmers, thieves, rangers... etc.

> > This is balancing, learn to live with it.

> >

> >

>

> more than mesmers sure, definitely less than thieves and rangers.

>

> > @"mixxed.5862" said:

> > Excellent changes. Exactly what was needed to bring Scourge back in line. You'll obviously run small shades which is more fun and more healthy for the game mode overall.

> >

> > For everyone complaining, consider this: With the very low cooldown on Manifest Sand Shade you can **always** put 3 shades out for your bombs. That puts it at 6 targets (8 if in melee). It's the first time the number of targets on shade actually feels fair.

> >

> > Thank you. This was a proper hotfix, good job.

>

> This isn't in line, it's nuking the class from orbit. scourge was in line before the patch on the 7th

>

> Show me 1 video of a scourge landing a 3 shade bomb on a moving zerg? I'm fairly good on scourge and I can only land 2 with any kind of reliability man lol

Yeah, you won't always get 6 unless you're in melee range. But if you don't hit 4 targets with your big bomb you misplayed.

Target cap is 5 for every other profession. So why was Scourge at 10+ for over 2 years dominating the meta for most of it? Don't worry Scourge will still be fine. No need to be overly dramatic.

Excellent changes. Exactly what was needed to bring Scourge back in line. You'll obviously run small shades which is more fun and more healthy for the game mode overall.

For everyone complaining, consider this: With the very low cooldown on Manifest Sand Shade you can **always** put 3 shades out for your bombs. That puts it at 6 targets (8 if in melee). It's the first time the number of targets on shade actually feels fair.

Thank you. This was a proper hotfix, good job.

> @"MichaelArchangel.7251" said:

> > @"mixxed.5862" said:

> > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > The biggest imbalance problem in WvW are numbers, that being the amount of people one server group can muster at any given time versus their competitors. Servers that are always outnumbered generally can not compete .

> > >

> > > The only side that a nerf to ACS and siege helps is the side with greater numbers. When AOE spells can be dumped on walls above and do more damage then those people above can do with ACS or cannons then this just more "he who gets there with the mostest" wins.

> > >

> > > Given alliances seems to be a pipe dream and years off IF it ever occurs, this nerf to siege was ill timed.

> > >

> > > There really is no point to people on an outnumbered server going out to fight the blob so what they generally did was try and defend what they could with thier smaller numbers while using siege to help equalize. What this nerf does is basically tell the outnumbered servers "There no point in going out and fighting those blobs when outnumbered 2 to 1 and now there no point in trying to defend an objective".

> > >

> > > Bad move.

> >

> > Healing overall was reduced by about 33% in the february patch. This change was meant to bring siege back in line with that. In my opinion it was necessary.

>

> lol.... Funny. I see zergs shrugging off siege like they're nerf darts all the time.

>

Well, you're not supposed to defend an objective with just 5 people sitting on arrow carts hitting 111111. Arrow carts are still a very welcome boon to any defending team. That's the correct balance.

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> The biggest imbalance problem in WvW are numbers, that being the amount of people one server group can muster at any given time versus their competitors. Servers that are always outnumbered generally can not compete .

>

> The only side that a nerf to ACS and siege helps is the side with greater numbers. When AOE spells can be dumped on walls above and do more damage then those people above can do with ACS or cannons then this just more "he who gets there with the mostest" wins.

>

> Given alliances seems to be a pipe dream and years off IF it ever occurs, this nerf to siege was ill timed.

>

> There really is no point to people on an outnumbered server going out to fight the blob so what they generally did was try and defend what they could with thier smaller numbers while using siege to help equalize. What this nerf does is basically tell the outnumbered servers "There no point in going out and fighting those blobs when outnumbered 2 to 1 and now there no point in trying to defend an objective".

>

> Bad move.

Healing overall was reduced by about 33% in the february patch. This change was meant to bring siege back in line with that. In my opinion it was necessary.

The best buff for warrior is in nerfing nade holo and condi rev. Warrior is a side noder and does well against most builds but gets destroyed by grenades and can't ever hope to kill a condi rev while it's more susceptible to a +1.

It's probably still a bit behind after that. But I don't think by that much.

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"mixxed.5862" said:

> > That's where I disagree with the community, or at least the vocal part of it that utilizes this forum. I think CMC did more frequent balance patches in the last few months. He did a patch every month and consistently made a couple of very sensible changes to a few builds that were overperforming. There were smaller balance patches on March 4th, April 28th and a few tweaks on May 26th. Yes, the scope of the patches was rather small. Especially condi rev was clearly too strong all that time and should have seen further adjustments. Other than that balance isn't even bad right now - thanks in part to these smaller, more focused patches.

> >

> > The upcoming patch will continue to move balance in the right direction. Finally we get a nerf to condi rev's sustain, condi thief (again), tempest's sustain and the glyph bug, nadekit etc. Btw there are some patch notes missing from the preview i.e. a nerf to Grenade Barrage.

> >

> > But most importantly: CMC communicates more than any of the other balance devs have in a long time. He gives us a good idea of where he wants to go with balance, shows that he has a profound understanding of the game and has a clear vision. In the last dev stream he gave some insight into what he thinks about the state of balance concerning a couple of professions. And honestly I think the points he makes are very reasonable. Seriously, it's worth watching.

> >

> > With CMC in charge of balance I feel like we are slowly but steadily moving towards a better balance in PvP. Builds that are overperforming or simply toxic see reasonable changes. You can rely on it (but it takes a while). That's something we couldn't for a very long time. After all I think the game will soon be more balanced than ever (in PvP at least). I'm convince it'll be the best it's ever been before the next expansion releases...

>

> First, I would not call the May patch... a patch. They changed 3 skills on 2 classes.

>

> Second, you are getting lost in the meta balancing. The entire sPvP foundation is kitten. Major changes are needed from damage levels, to sustain, boons, CC and boon RIP. Nothing is at an appropriate level for well paced fun game play. I don’t want to play bunker/CC wars. It does not matter if devs make a meta balance patch every week. Fundamental changes need to be made to the overall design.

>

> Also, currently the of balance strategy is to remove most option and reducing diversity to the bare minimum, and then nerf everything to the ground, so it is easier to balance. Ya sure.. theoretically you could have better balance like that (we still do not), but is this... worth playing?

You're correct about the May patch. It was but a handful of changes. It doesn't change the fact that we've gotten more frequent patches for PvP. And all of them consisted of good changes, all of them improved the meta.

I disagree that there is something fundamentally wrong with sPvP. GW2 has an incredibly good combat system. What do you mean exactly? Please be a little more specific.

* I think the damage is at a much more appropriate level than ever before. Just sustain is a bit too high on some builds. Ideally duels on a side node should always end with a winner, not necessarily with a kill but at least a full cap and disengage. Imo we're getting there. Once condi rev (= corruption trait line and resistance access) is adressed it may look much better already. Although certainly ranger will be the next best profession for bunkering down. It's a balance that's best achieved by nerfing the sustain capabilities of the builds in question. And that's what they're doing. I'm confident that we'll get there eventually. Even if it takes a couple of months. Before the issues kept piling up while right now CMC fixes them faster than the skills team can add new ones.

* Boons and boon rips should always be reevaluated. Although it's in a hugely more balanced state than before the february patch.

* Many on the forums keep claiming that it's a CC and condi meta. In the game I don't see that at all. Yes, there are strong condi builds but the power variant is usually better or at least comparable (a notable exception is condi rev, of course).

* As for CC in my opinion it's alright. It certainly needs work, but it's not even that bad either. It's fine that there are builds that can chain CC. Conceptually that's sound. In 1v1 and 2v2 the amount of CC is manageable. If you die to it you usually got outplayed. In anything larger than that it becomes more problematic. You get CC'd, are being ganked on, the enemy team keeps locking you in CC and you're just done. Therefore CC skills definitely need another pass.

* Here's the biggest problem with the state of the game: Team fights feel like a wild gamble, a real mess. They are too chaotic to feel skillful and fun (or I'm just not good enough and tunnel visioning). I don't know how to adress that. Maybe it's the amount of AoE, of CC and important abilities per class in general. A moba in comparison feels much better. Mostly because there are fewer abilities per class to keep track of. What they could do is increase the cooldown of CCs and other very impactful skills. The visual tells are mostly there already.

* But first thing they need to balance out is sustain. So side node play isn't as much of a chore and the build diversity increases. As I said, I believe they are making tangible progress towards that goal.

Sorry for the very long post.