Woop S.7851

> @"Hesione.9412" said: > setting aside the player-decided server swapping - is whether a server's population is full, high, etc. I've been on a server that is classified as having a high population, but large pockets of time where there seems to be only about 5 players across all 4 maps (we all talked to each other in team chat and then joined up on one map to havoc). > Finally, not all guilds in WvW are "fight" guilds. And not all "fight" guilds are good at fighting, as demonstrated by their death rate when encountering an opposing team that has similar numbers. Great discussions in this thread :) There's similar issues mentioned from another thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/121580/wvw-spawn-bad-design/p2 **Holistically, Key Points/issues shared:** - Population Imbalance (server stacking - user behavior) - Player movement flow & pace influenced by wall tiers vs. camps which has no walls - Time gate: 24-7 one week match - Server/link matchup system **Causes:** - Gem store purchase server transfers/stacking (buying into the winning side?) - Wall upgrades (small group can't capture Tier-3), overwhelmed by larger enemy group quickly in a 24/7 match - Matches are 1 week long, 24/7 matches (no time gate), while [EOTM](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists) resets matches 4-hours per day - One sided dominance results: **Winning side keeps winning -> Boredom (player withdrawal participation)** - While losing side -> **Frustration (player withdrawal participation)** - PvE World impact from winning missing like in GW1? (PvE server buffs from winning? Guild claimed PvE town buff? Rewards buffs?) **[ishikawa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishikawa_diagram) Fishbone Analysis:**  **Questions (nudging/tweaking elements in the fishbone model):** - If score points are time gated (4-hours per match similar to [EOTM](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists)), what effect would this have on player behavior? - In a 4-hour match ([instanced](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instancing) similar to [EOTM](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists)) where 50-players are against 10-players (whether it'd be server stacking or regional off-time hours), can the 10-player group still win the match through capturing all camps/towers? What variables from the fishbone needs adjustment to balance this scenario? - And since 'barriers' such as walls affect -> pace of player movement/capture, if towers (Keeps excluded) are always Tier-1, would that encourage capture-driven gameplay as an second option alongside [Zerg vs. Zerg](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zerg)? **Hypothetical Scenario 1:** - 15-people group captured all camps and towers (3 groups of 5 spread out to capture T1 Tower + camps) - 50-people group captured all enemy keeps & sustains chase of 1 group - 4-hour match ends: 10-people party still wins with all the control of towers + camps **- Population imbalance shifted to -> Tactics** **Hypothetical Scenario 2:** - 50-people group vs. 50-people group (big fight for 2-hours) - 1-side keeps losing the fight, only 2-hours left before match ends - Winning side gains morale, losing side gains frustration - Instead of withdrawal, losing side spreads out to capture all towers + camps (50-man Zerg coordinated to become five 10-person groups in squad) - 4-hour match ends: 50-people (who were bad at Zerg fights) can still win by controlling all towers + camps **- Boredom (from prolonged winning fights) shifted to -> Purpose (counter enemy from scoring due to enemy strategy change)** **- Frustration/withdrawal (from always losing fights) shifted to -> Hope (alternative winning strategy in capturing points, spread out, tactics/strategy)** **Would this balance the playing field? Any other scenarios you can think of by nudging elements in the current system? Thoughts? Comments? :)**

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > The issue with Mag's strategy specifically is because they throw down groups of 15 on cloud builds at each exit rather than one blob at the main entrance. > If a blob capable of wiping them shows up, the 15-man at one exit runs (because they're KDA-obsessed and don't actually like winning at a disadvantage, despite what they say) and people are let back in momentarily. The issue is the 15-man chases down stragglers to ensure their kills come at no risk, avoids the blob at all costs, and said blob ends up with no content, and leaves again, and the 15-man group just refills the spot. > > If the blob goes to take SMC or a similar objective, Mag cries about it being a blob server and then sits with 10mans on camps preventing anyone actually looking to run small/solo from doing literally anything except blob. The endless ganking and abhorrent whispers if you manage to actually kill any of them is insane. They're victims to their own toxicity, and pull the same strategy people are saying to deny them content in reverse; if they're not ganking 5-to-1, they don't give content. Thanks, that's interesting :p was not aware of this, currently I'm on Henge of Denravi, there's a reset today, HoD will be up against Maguma, guessing I'll be able to experience it first-hand B)

A lot of good points on this post, can also sense a bit of frustrations, totally understandable, guessing there's been prolonged larger underlying issues in this game mode for a while now :o **Perhaps we can zoom-out a bit to identify it:** **Observations:** - Spawn scenarios: higher chance when 'participants' # not balanced - Map affected: [EBG](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eternal_Battlegrounds) - Duration of occurrence: Hours+, days+ - Q: Are server linking at play? - Q: Is there a lack of checks/balances in the system? - Terrain: [EOTM](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists) uses the triangle design method from [board games](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_checkers#History_and_nomenclature), [EBG](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists) does not **Time-gate Comparisons:** - [EBG](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists) runs 24/7 - matches reset in 1 week durations - [EOTM](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists) runs 24/7 - matches reset every 4 hours (gameboard reset), or 6 times a day (Macro-intervention present using time-gates to counteract prolonged imbalance) **Results:** - Prolonged 1-sided dominance (24/7 hours+) negates opponents' interaction/participation on gameboard - Players switch/leave map and/or game mode, general negative play experiences - [score points](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World#Mechanics) tilted to 1-sides' favor? (duration: 1 week) **Scenario based analysis (crosscheck our reasoning/assumptions) using the [Fishbone Ishikawa Model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishikawa_diagram):** - Dissect the area into key components to objectively observe interactions/processes: (Terrain, Timers, NPCs, Player behaviors - if anything I've missed please add! :))  - Constructive comments, feedback + solutions always welcomed! Let's tackle the problem togetha! Please share your thoughts! =) 

> @"vier.1327" said: > I still believe in our dream... Alliances Yes! Please keep the dream alive! :)

> @"Bristingr.5034" said: > This. >  Yikes, that looks...very colorful :3 **EB Terrain flow analysis/solutions:** - Red + Blue spawn has lower terrain elevation to **Keep** - Only Green spawn (bottom left corner - water area) has **higher elevation compared to keep**, not sure why - Distance from spawn > keep > camps uneven (example: alt-route distance from blue spawn at bottom right corner is very long if a player wanted to reach supply camp) - Barriers (high walls) placed right outside of spawn seems to form chokes (funnels respawned players, opposite of intended purpose?) - No [fog of war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_of_war#In_video_games) present at spawn area (1-sided mirror) - Triangle/Diamond design theory (from competitive board games) not present on map for balanced 3-way competition (from time/distance in reaching an objective, to walls/barricades, to proper alternative routing from spawn due to 1-sided dominance) - **Sternhalma** (3 players +) uses this, while [Go](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game)) and [Chess](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess) uses square and lines (2-players):  - Examples of this exists in [EOTM](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists): has 4-hour match reset intervals, instanced, hot-join enabled, uses the triangle design theory:  - GW1 [Alliance battles](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Alliance_Battles) uses the Triangle/diamond movement flow as well + portals (to balance both sides' travel time, flow, player movement)  - Missing synchronized group spawn timer (5-10 seconds) like in GW1 Alliance Battles, 4-5 players respawn together, higher chance to push out of spawn against say: 4 camping thieves if roaming, GW1 example:  Comments? Thoughts? :)

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > So, let me help here: there are maps other that eternal battlegrounds. The border lands work very well. > I feel bad that people keep walking into a death trap on the same map over and over and don’t seem to understand that there are other options, both within the map they are trying to enter ( 3 exits) and the other three maps. (Which each have three exits.) Thanks! Every bit of info helps! =) Would the below work to counter-balance such scenarios? (EBG as an map example) **[EBG](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eternal_Battlegrounds) UI/UX Triggers: - After entering EB (1st time): minimap ping/flash for all 3 exits for player - **if:** player leaving spawn area alone, prompt/alert players with popup warning of venturing alone (borrow popup dialogue box from Strike missions or DRM) - Triggered first time joining map or when crossing the front-gate exit:  - Prompt/motivate players teaming up before existing spawn area - Currently missing automated [grouping find feature](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/102056/commander-mentor-squad-gamemechanics-in-need-of-improvements-comments-feedback-suggestions) (can pop-up right away after entering map); - Add exit door portal (similar to the glowing doors used to enter a keep) **Timer-gated Triggers to counter spawn camping:** - Unlike [EOTM](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists) running 4 hour match reset at intervals, [EBG](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eternal_Battlegrounds) runs 24/7 with match ongoing throughout the week, if staying with this design: - Need timer triggered **intervention** functions (similar to board games like chess - it should not be 1 person's turn for a week 24/7) - Event triggers: based on battle conditions (Is Red dominating team Blue at spawn? Range? For how long? Red player #s vs. Blue, 10:1 ratio? etc.) - **Example:** Players given spawn point specific buffs (+200 toughness etc.), similar to [Objective Auras](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Objective#Guild_Objective_Auras), can be triggered alongside '[outnumbered](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outnumbered)', **if** both buffs lasts 15-minutes (5 x 3 warscore) or more, **trigger the following:** **- Apply -200 Toughness/vitality debuff for spawn campers in an area near spawn exit choke** **- Apply 'revealed' within an area near front exit choke** **- Remove [downed state](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Downed), apply [defeated](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeated) or instant death to enemy players within a radius of spawn area** What do you think? Comments, thoughts, concerns? :)

Any thoughts on possible solutions to deterring spawn camping? (thinking out loud.. would any of the below work? Issues/side-effects this might cause? Thoughts & feedbacks?) - **Example scenario 1:** Low-population on 1 side, Keep held by enemy for too long + no commander present for more than 'x' minutes: A. System initiates [NPC Commander Siegerazer](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Commander_Siegerazer), it tags up, offering bonus buffs (such as [Commanders' presence](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Commander%27s_Presence) - # scales by player #s or other conditions/formula), the NPC can offer speed boosts? Lay down siege to take a keep back? or: B. If outnumbered on 1 side, system...spawns a giant super awesome drivable Mecha [siege Turtle](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Siege_Turtle) at spawn area :p - **Example scenario 2:** Enemies camping a spawn non-stop (4 thieves, 10 guardians etc. or due to population imbalance): A. System apply de-buffs to spawn campers within the area after 'x' Minutes (examples: -200 toughness or stealth disabled + '[revealed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed)') B. Elevate terrain for spawn area or add exit portals, enemy players can't see beyond portal ([One way mirror](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-way_mirror), similar to GW1 Alliance battles?) (Below: Design reference from GW1 Factions [Alliance battles](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Alliance_Battles) map Etnaran Keys: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Etnaran_Keys Full image: https://i.imgur.com/f2oqvrB.png 

> @"Shroud.2307" said: > * Guilds that play 70/30 Support/DPS, farm pugs and are nigh untouchable by > * Players that roam in groups of 5 - 10+ that have no respect for people playing alone > * People with no creativity of their own that only play what's best in a mode _(WvW)_ that it hardly matters > * Players that sit in objectives 24/7 constantly manning siege waiting for someone to pass by so they can shoot them > * People who make it their business to put Commanders down until they detag because they don't agree with how they lead > The only players that will provide actual fights are all in a group, so you can't have a good 1v1/X and instead get harassed by numbers you can in no way handle. Outside of having a good fight, there's nothing else you can reliably do because of Mounts and Tactics. > There are _so many_ possibilities with builds in this game and yet 90% of the playerbase has 0 creativity. It's the same 3 - 5 things over and over again that only changes when the meta changes. > People can't at least make builds their own or make something entirely unique. It is _so boring_ to fight clones all day. > Players literally refuse to fight beyond the border of their objective but will happily sit inside it shooting you with what ever siege reaches and will summon the zerg when you head for a camp. > And lastly, bullies. Commanders are few and far between as it is. Less and less people are willing to do it because like roaming, it has become less and less rewarding Thanks @"Shroud.2307", those are great critical points! :) Let's say for example WvW is to be enhanced, based on the issues above, any suggestions/comments on solutions & how the game mode can be drastically improved? :) ### From above, key points & questions: **1. Skill mechanics:** lack of build diversification; would [secondary professions (similar to GW1)](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/A_Second_Profession) resolve this? Thoughts? Ideas? **2. Macro-Environmental variables/rules:** The current WvW mode for the main maps are 24/7, can it be argued that this arrangement triggered issues such as spawn camping (low population), night-capping (score system), generating follower frustration indirectly placed upon the lead/commander? Thoughts? Comments? (Analogy: chess/checker board = environment, Player pieces = different professions adhering to system rules previously set in that environment) **3. If match systems were instanced:** ([GW1 Alliance battles](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Alliance_Battles)) with set timer/intervals (similar to [EOTM - 4 hours per match](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Edge_of_the_Mists)), would that alleviate some of these issues mentioned above? Any thoughts or better methods? Any other games/examples? =) **4. For the commander system**: Follower frustration is indirectly burdened upon the **commander player**, any thoughts on how to **encourage** more people to lead + participate from a** system perspective**? (Designed system rules that will enhance commanding + follower experience) - **Example scenario 1:** a map has 0 commanders for 'x' amount of minutes & has low population: A. System would auto-suggest and prompt high-rank players to volunteer as commander, offering bonus rank/rewards facing overwhelming enemy numbers  B. System auto-assigns multiple small parties, with highest ranking player auto-selected/tagged as **group-leads**, can be seen on minimap  - **Example scenario 2:** Low-population on 1 side, Keep held by enemy for too long + no commander present for more than 'x' minutes: A. System initiates [NPC Commander Siegerazer](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Commander_Siegerazer), it tags up, offering bonus buffs (such as [Commanders' presence](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Commander%27s_Presence)) to players that follow & lays siege to take a keep back, or: B. System...spawns a [siege Turtle](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Siege_Turtle) (drivable) at spawn area :p :) - **Example scenario 3:** Enemies camping a spawn non-stop (4 thieves, 10 guardians etc. or due to population imbalance): A. System apply de-buffs to spawn campers near the area after 'x' Minutes (examples: -200 toughness or stealth disabled + 'revealed') B. Elevate terrain for spawn area or add exit portal, enemy players can't see beyond portal (similar to GW1 Alliance battles) Also a legacy discussion post on: [Commander Tag/Function Enhancements](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/102056/commander-mentor-squad-gamemechanics-in-need-of-improvements-comments-feedback-suggestions) Thoughts, comments, feedbacks welcomed! :) Thanks! **------------------------------------------------------------------------------------** ### Legacy post related to alliances (for reference): https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26547/world-restructuring/p1  

Additional comments from these 2 links compiled & added in the list above: Commander tag visibility issues: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/121378/commander-tag-anet-wishlist WvW spawn camping issues: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/121580/wvw-spawn-bad-design#latest WvW UI/UX issues: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/120561/what-really-makes-wvw-stale-for-you

Something like this? Full image: https://i.imgur.com/eLqofP4.png  Great ideas related to commander tags on this post! :) thanks! Compiled above key points & placed them here in this a past poll/post: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/102056/commander-mentor-squad-ui-in-need-of-improvements-comments-feedback-suggestions *Any further comments welcomed!

> @"Infusion.7149" said: > * Needs a label for WvW : closed/private guild group , open (Public) , size (<10 , 25+) denoted by bars , circles, stars, or something > * For PvE : a way to label what the squad is for if it's not in LFG , stop random people from merging with another squad on a completely different map > * on right clicking a tag: view squad message , etc **Thanks for the comments! Keep them coming! :)** Full image link: https://i.imgur.com/79RZMiX.png